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Woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo-woo-hoo-hoo-hoo!
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GONER
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With a narrow vote of 6-5, Blaziken is now banned! The paragraphs.
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Originally Posted by Fat shrang
Blaziken is an Uber.
Firstly, Blaziken is a fantastic sweeper, able to operate in all forms of weather, even rain. With an excellent base 120 Attack coupled with Speed Boost, 130 Base Power Hi Jump Kick, Swords Dance and good coverage moves, there is very little that can actually stop a Blaziken from sweeping. In the sun, Blaziken reaches ridiculous power levels after a Swords Dance, capable of OHKOing resists like Jellicent with sun-boosted Flare Blitz. The one sold check that can actually stand up to Blaziken (Slowbro), can easily be removed by Chandelure. Unlike many other sweepers, Blaziken becomes harder and harder to revenge kill, as Speed Boost allows it to outspeed most revenge killers after a kill and two Protects (which isn't hard to get if you play correctly). The only way to revenge it is usually through priority, which can't kill a healthy Blaziken (LO Breloom does ~70% with Mach Punch), which means Blaziken is likely to get a kill a match in the normal circumstances and at its worst, it's sweeping entire teams. If we look at the old Uber characteristics, Blaziken fits the Offensive Characteristic pretty well.
What makes Blaziken really undisputably broken in my eyes, however, is its ability to Baton Pass its boosts. Imagine a Ninjask that doesn't have a 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, horrible typing and shallow movepool. When Blaziken can't get past a certain Pokemon, it doesn't care, all it does is just Baton Pass to a Pokemon that can. Slowbro blocking your way and Chandelure isn't around to trap him? No problem. Just Baton Pass to your Lum DD Dragonite or Breloom and call it a day. Unlike Ninjask, you can't just stop Blaziken passing simply by phazing, since Blaziken kills most phazers and Taunt users. Focus Sash Blaziken can generally pass +2/+1 or +2/+2 unless you just so happen to switch in a powerful attacker that can use priority twice. Not only can Blaziken sweep, but it can also easily facilitate a sweep of one of its teammates. I already thought that Blaziken was broken in standard OU, and the ability to use Baton Pass just pushes him off the scale.
We should also remember that Blaziken was banned by a supermajority in round 3 for standard OU. This should send us a very strong signal already. Back then, Garchomp, Excadrill and Thundurus were all allowed. Has anything changed in Dream World that makes Blaziken that much more manageable that it should be unbanned? I can't see it. We got Technician Breloom, who can revenge kill Blaziken at around 70%. Chandelure can take unboosted attacks from Blaziken, but is easily 2HKOed, while being OHKOed if Blaziken has an SD up. Genesect can't beat Blaziken very easily at all, while Keldeo and Manaphy can't stop it. So pretty much, Blaziken got itself one extra check. However, we look at the other side of the equation. Blaziken has got itself a huge partner called Chandelure, who can remove most of its checks. Sun is in general, more powerful in DW as well since Venusaur is allowed to use its better STAB Grass attacks, making Blaziken even more dangerous. This is not to mention the elephant in the room, which is Baton Pass. All this points to Blaziken being even more broken in Dream World than when it got the boot back in round 3, so I definitely think it should be banned.
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Originally Posted by Fat idiotfrommars
Banish it to ubers O_O
The main problem that I have with Blaziken is the extreme ease it has setting up along with the access to Baton Pass that allows it to continue the sweep even after it has been weakened.
The most effective set I have used is the standard SD one with hjk/flare blitz/protect in the sun. I paired it with a Venasaur which is able to take on and decimate both of Blazikens two counters and set up with Growth and the combination was unstoppable if I could keep the sun up. Now at first glance that might not seem that broken due to the team support I gave it, but even if I wasn't able to keep up the weather Blaziken was still able to perform magnificently. Stab fighting absolutely blows holes in Sand Teams and Blaziken is able to get common walls with Flare Blitz. A balloon is far and away Blazikens best item since it makes Excadrill use Frustration or Rock Slide against it and forces Gliscor to go for the Acrobat instead of the earthquake.
Another set that is perfectly viable and hasn't really even been talked about yet is HP Ice mixken. With HP Ice it can reliably remove Gliscor and Dragonite, something that Swords Dance Blaziken can't do unless it is in the sun. Another great thing about Mixken is that it is able to 2hko Slowbro with fire blast in the sun which is basically considered one of its two sure fire counters. Mixken is an absolute nightmare for stall teams to face since it hits the majority of the walls on their weaker defensive sides (ie blissey with hjk, and skarm with fire blast).
I haven't even gotten to Baton Pass which is probably the last straw on the camels back when it comes to Blaziken. Not only can it power through teams on both sides of the attacking spectrum it can also pass those boosts off to other pokemon to continue the sweep. Think of smash pass coming from a Pokemon that has a considerable offensive presences by itself anyway that allows it to gather boosts like nobody's business. Combine this with Blazikens decent bulk and dual screens and you have the perfect passer also able to punch holes with HJK and Flareblitz before he passes off for more mayhem to occur.
All these factors together make Blaziken to versatile and powerful for the DW meta-game which is why I vote ban on this suspect.
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Originally Posted by Fat V0x
As a sweeper Blaziken is faced with a few Pokemon, which aren't specialized for dealing with Blaziken, that it cannot outright OHKO, but can KO in return. The most memorable example is Jellicent, who can live Flare Blitz and Shadow Claw (+2). While sun allows massive OHKOes with Flare Blitz, for example on the previously mentioned Jellicent, first it depletes HP very quickly, and second sun is not dependable in Blaziken's case, where switching out and trying to set up a second time is very hard to pull off. Furthermore, the opportunity to set up is limited in a correlation with the item: Air Balloon means some other attack (that does not OHKO Blaziken) will be directed at Blaziken, lowering its HP. Stack this on Flare Blitz and really it is not hard to take it down. Life Orb also has this issue, easily pushing it into Mach Punch OHKO range, among other moves. Baton Pass suffers 4 moveslot syndrome in that you need Protect or another attack, but in either case something checks you and your recipient from my experience. Also, even with screens, you are encouraging Blaziken to be hit, meaning it will be low on health and unable to pass more than once. It's usually pretty easy to tell the difference between and BP Blaziken and a plain attack one based on the team, and thus you can take precautions such as setting up on their dual screen user with whatever Pokemon is able to.
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Originally Posted by Fat Taylor
Is Blaziken Uber? I find he/she wields the characteristics of a threat which the metagame should be well prepared for.
The problem lies between the Pokemon that can phaze the Baton Pass set, should it be noted are not even checks to Blaziken, let alone counters.
To add, the Pokemon which reasonably switch into Blaziken cannot phaze Air Balloon + Protect + Baton Pass, which has universal advantages because it is one of the best users of Baton Pass due to its natural power and sweeping capabilities and is not walled outright.
That's where it becomes difficult to assess what really troubles teams to the point where it is undeniable to highlight the most potential game-breaking suspect needs to be banned.
I wish for the sake of Dream World, Blaziken will remain loyal a DW OU purpose to serve weather teams a fair compromise, due to circumstances where the opponent is attempting to rack up its Speed Boosts, it requires +2 to outspeed certain threats, and 3 successful Protects for it to outside the the fast suspect: Excadrill, which has access to Frustration for some damage before finishing it off.
These are vital turns which the opponent has the opportunity to make the right move as well, predicting their Protect whilst you use a set up move as they do, making it harder to pass to the opponents' recepitant of choice.
Priority can dent Blaziken hard, paired up with Flare Blitz recoil and residual damage from the most popular weather, "sand".
Blaziken also suffers the syndrome like many other sweepers in that it is restricted to just four moves and it ususally ends up with Hi Jump Kick + Flare Blitz, physically calls for Swords Dance and last, the fourth move is down to how the player should play their Blaziken in the best way possible, be it Baton Pass/Stone Edge/Shadow Claw or a mixed set.
Failing to make top 10 in both usage statistics, for those who fear the power-hungry calculations which Life Orb Blaziken sports, is a testiment to its impact so far. There are Pokemon as deserving of such a title as overpowered because they also have equally strong stats and can truck through teams with their own STAB moves, and can achieve this goal easier thanks to Chandelure.
I wish OU upon Blaziken's future endeavors as I think as an individual suspect, it does not meet standard Uber requirements.
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Originally Posted by Fat mostwanted
Blaziken: Do Not Ban
Blaziken is one the many highlight sweepers in the Dream World OU metagame. However, it does have several flaws which is why I don't see the need to ban it. While it is a powerful Pokemon that can beat a number of teams right now, I believe this is due to it taking advantage of the primarily physical bias in the current metagame, as opposed to it being too strong for it. In forms of checks and counters both offensive and defensive oriented teams have viable options of defeating it. Stall teams are both able to switch in and beat Blaziken; Jellicent resists its dual stabs and is immune to High Jump Kick, while Slowbro, Tentacruel and Dragonite have no trouble putting a complete end to its existence. For offensive teams, Focus Sash and Priority moves are the best options if Blaziken manages to get a boost, without the boost Garchomp could set a potential substitute predicting Protect while Excadrill out speeds and revenge kills it in sand.
Blaziken is severely limited to its move pool and really easy to play around with. For instance you could switch to Tyranitar predicting it to Flare Blitz, stall its HP out and continue playing the mind games until its at a KO range. It is also very prone to priority moves and entry-hazards which is mostly covered by every team and could not be neglected. In my opinion one of the reason why people are so hype about Blaziken is they essentially don't prepare or know how to get past it safely. After holding the number one rank for several months I came to the conclusion that Blaziken is no more broken than Sand Veil Garchomp, Manaphy and Keldeo. Every Pokemon has its pros and cons in the Dream World tier and Blaziken should not had been the first suspect.
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Originally Posted by Fat jrrrrrrr
Forgive me if this is scrambled, I just wanna make sure I touched everything.
My vote is that Blaziken should remain OU
Blaziken is terrible defensively. Fire/Fighting is poor defensive typing. It doesn't help that 8 of the top 11 most used pokemon can OHKO Blaziken with their standard sets, and the other 3 can cripple it. Flare Blitz, Life Orb, Sandstorm and HJK misses drain massive amounts of HP. Common priority attacks nuke it. This means you're basically playing 6 on 5 until something on your team dies to give Blaziken a chance to come in. Even if you switch into a resisted move like an Ice Beam, you are still in revenge kill territory from most common pokemon in the tier. Blaziken has a big list of legitimate checks and counters in DW OU:
The metagame is simply not set up for Blaziken to have consistent success at a high level, which is what defines the word "broken" in a competitive gaming forum. Blaziken has massive 4-moveslot syndrome, where no matter what you choose you will always have to overcome a huge obstacle to sweep. It also needs support to sweep effectively. Stealth Rock and Sunlight are essential to its damage calculations. And there's no evidence that the metagame would change significantly if Blaziken were removed, which is a telltale sign if something is truly breaking it.
Ok, to clarify, we are not determining if Blaziken is OU or Uber as a 50/50 choice. It is OU by default. With that said, I think Blaziken must remain OU. I don't think it's breaking the metagame from either a personal or objective point of view. It's just a pretty good mon.
/me gets out rocking chair and blanket
When suspect testing first started we had a metagame where Garchomp and Gengar were floating around 50% usage for several months. 50%. This caused Blissey, Deoxys-S, Lucario, Metagross, Heatran and Tyranitar to completely define the metagame by a wide margin. You could not win without at least some of these pokemon to check Garchomp and switch into Gengar (the most reliable Garchomp check because Scizor didn't have Bullet Punch). Now let's see what DW stats look like:
| 13 | Infernape | 4504 | 8.765% | 3765 | 9.043% |
| 14 | Venusaur | 4121 | 8.019% | 3267 | 7.847% |
| 15 | Blaziken | 4088 | 7.955% | 3165 | 7.602% |
Blaziken isn't even the most popular Fire/Fighting animal starter pokemon! I wonder why that is, if Blaziken is really breaking the metagame? It doesn't do much better in 1337 stats either
Usage stats aren't the sole determining factor of something breaking a metagame, but they can't be completely ignored. There are plenty of reasons why Blaziken wasn't banned when the original Smogon DW tier list was made, and not much has really changed since then. Usage stats reflect this. Blaziken's usage has been consistent, which means that there's no miracle set that was just discovered that is breaking the metagame either. People have gotten used to it.
re:
The Baton Pass set has critical flaws from my experience. Firstly, it's not obscenely fast until it hits +2 Speed, which takes 2 turns, and even at that point you are still in revenge kill territory from several common pokemon. If you use Protect to guarantee you a Speed Boost, you give up an attack or Swords Dance...basically neutering Blaziken's offensive potential. It is not a reliable Baton Passer because it is so frail defensively. Even resisted attacks 2hko its standard sets.
I'm not convinced that Blaziken is even close to being the best pokemon in DW, not convinced it is breaking the metagame, and definitely not convinced that it's worthy of our first ban.
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Originally Posted by Fat Omicron
Keep in mind that Blaziken was banned in BW OU even with other huge threats present such as Garchomp, Thundurus, and Excadrill still around. It didn't even have Baton Pass and yet it still got booted to Ubers. Just some food for thought.
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Are you going to use this same argument if Garchomp Thundurus Manaphy and Excadrill are nominated as suspects? I get what you're saying but I don't think we should be trying to emulate OU's tier list, DW is our own tier and we need discussions about our unique metagame.
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Originally Posted by Fat shrang
The problem is that is there anything that makes Blaziken any less broken than it was in standard? No matter how much you want to paint DW OU as different, it is still largely the same metagame, with a few additions and since we're curious, drop-downs.
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Excadrill, Thundurus, Garchomp, you dismiss Manaphy and Keldeo but thats just 2 more common pokemon that Blaziken can't switch into. You also seem to assume Blaziken is always at +2 +1 when its actually kinda hard to do that. |
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Originally Posted by Fat Hawkstar
As much as I'd like to adhere to the policy of banning as few things as possible, I am casting my vote to make Blaziken Uber.
The main reason I believe Blaziken to be Uber is Baton Pass. With it, Blaziken can now take on the role of a powerful support Pokemon that can actually deal sufficient damage, unlike Ninjask, whom it is often compared to. Baton Pass also gives Blaziken a panic button of sorts, allowing it to switch out while keeping the boosts, making forcing it out no longer an option. There's also the fact that no form of priority besides the rare Aqua Jet can prevent this, since it resists Scizor's Bullet Punch and Adamant LO Breloom can't OHKO Blaziken with Mach Punch. Then, Blaziken just passes off the boosts to something like Garchomp, which then crashes through your team.
Baton Pass + Speed Boost is a combination two Pokemon have. Ninjask is incredibly mediocre, landing itself in NU, even with an absolutely massive 160 Speed stat. It can also pass Swords Dance boosts as well. So then, what makes Ninjask NU and Blaziken Uber? Blaziken's awesome dual STAB, high-powered STAB moves in Flare Blitz and Hi Jump Kick, and the stats to use them sets it apart from the speedy bug. Baton Pass doesn't even need to be on the set, as just the threat of it possibly being there makes switching in a counter a very risky move. If Blaziken can just Baton Pass out to force out your Slowbro/Gliscor/Jellicent/etc., then what's the point of switching them in? All they do is take entry hazard damage while giving whatever just got the boosts a chance to knock something out. There's also Chandelure, who destroys all three of the above examples, along with many more checks such as Skarmory, while Blaziken sets up on Tyranitar and Scizor, the two best Pursuiters in DW OU.
In summary, it's the combination of Baton Pass and Blaziken's own high-powered offenses that makes me want to give it the boot. Separate, I don't either are enough to banish Blaziken from OU, but together, Blaziken becomes a menace to both prepared and unprepared teams alike.
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Originally Posted by Fat ala
Blaziken is a huge threat to the metagame. With Speed Boost, it finally has the speed to pull off sweeps with high base powered attacks such as High Jump Kick and Flare Blitz. It can also utilize Baton Pass to send the boosted Speed and possibly Attack via Swords Dance to another pokemon. I believe that Blaziken is simply too strong for the metagame, as it is extremely easy to set up for a sweep or a pass.
Blaziken is simple to use, and the most common way is to set up on either a Choiced pokemon that cannot hit you for significant damage (Genesect being the main example) or threaten a KO (Tyranitar being an example there, not wanting to get hit by HJK). All it needs to do is Swords Dance while the opponent switches in a check, usually a Scarfed pokemon. It can then Protect to get to +2 Speed and scout the opponents locked attack, then Baton Pass to the appropriate sweeper. What makes this so difficult to stop is the fact that there is very little that can outspeed a +2 Blaziken, especially at max speed. This strategy becomes even easier when combined with a Dual Screener such as Deoxys-S since Blaziken is pretty frail and appreciates taking less damage while it sets up. Pokemon such as Chandelure also help by getting rid of Priority checks to Blaziken such as Breloom and Banded Dragonite locked into Extremespeed.
Blaziken boasts an excellent attacking stat itself and has no trouble sweeping with its excellent coverage. It is very deadly on Sun teams which can allow it to plow through several of its counters, such as Gliscor and Jellicent with the boosted Flare Blitz. If it runs into problems it simply just passes the boosts to something else to continue the sweep. Blaziken may not be as high on the usage list as some other threats, but I fully believe that this is because the tier is pretty new to Smogon and there are a ton of different pokemon to try out. Blaziken will continue to rise (rose from 30th to 15th in usage from Feb to March 2012) once the tier settles down and people realize just how overpowered it is. The combination of Speed Boost on a pokemon with insane STAB coverage, high powered attacks and passable defenses make for a sweeper that is a top tier threat. On top of all of those advantages Blaziken can Baton Pass with even more efficiency than a Smashpasser, and that puts it over the top for me.
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Originally Posted by Fat Omicron
Ban
There are many reasons why I'd like to see Blaziken out of the standard DW metagame. Many have stated that it's Baton Passing capabilities are what put it over the edge, and I certainly agree with that sentiment, to an extent. Blaziken is a remarkable sweeper in its own right, being able to do heavy damage to even the most bulky of physical walls, such as Gliscor, Jellicent, and even Slowbro, under the right conditions (which, I might add, aren't very difficult to attain). Slowbro may seem like the perfect answer to Blaziken, but a +2 sun-boosted Flare Blitz can easily 2HKO, while Surf in the sun fails to OHKO in return. Jellicent is even weaker than Slowbro, and has less physical bulk. Gliscor doesn't resist Fire, meaning that Flare Blitz will easily decimate it, and it usually cannot do anything in return as most Blaziken run Air Balloon these days. Nothing is really safe from being KOed by Blaziken - especially if it has managed to set up a Swords Dance, which really isn't too difficult, considering the number of Pokemon it can force switches on. My main point is that while its Baton Passing ability is extremely effective, its sweeping capabilities are no less effective.
Another concern that people had brought up is that sun would become a non-existent playstyle without Blaziken present as its main sweeper. This statement is not really accurate, as sun is already a much lesser used playstyle when compared to sand or rain, and I've seen teams that are able to effectively utilize sun without Blaziken, mine being one of them. Blaziken is good in its own right, not because sun makes it overpowered for that matter.
It is very easy to help Blaziken set up, especially with Pokemon such as Chandelure, who can trap and eliminate every one of Blaziken's "Checks and Counters" with ease, and Deoxys-S, who can practically guarantee dual screens and perhaps even some entry hazards. Thundurus's priority Thunder Wave doesn't even matter anymore because Blaziken can simply Baton Pass out its boosts to an Electric-immune recipient, such as Garchomp, who can then proceed to sweep the rest of your opponent's team. With such powerful moves / stats and access to Baton Pass and Speed Boost, it essentially has the best of both worlds. It is one of the best sweepers in the metagame, and is also one of the best team supporters for its ability to easily Baton Pass all those boosts. Speed Boost greatly helps in this role, as only a priority Taunt can stop a pass, in which then you get destroyed by a boosted attack. Trying to predict around Blaziken is rather dangerous.
tl;dr, Blaziken is pretty unhealthy for the DW metagame, and it should really be banished to DW Ubers, where it rightfully belongs.
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Originally Posted by Fat Birkal
Do Not Ban
I am not convinced that Blaziken is broken within the Dream World metagame. It is obviously one of the best sweepers within the metagame with excellent STABs and access to Speed Boost. Accumulating factors like permanent Sun and entry hazards to support its sweep further its threatening position within the metagame. In my experience with Blaziken, I have always favored the Baton Pass sets. Passing to threats like Breloom and Garchomp are an absolute riot. At face value, it certainly does seem nigh impossible to destroy Blaziken.
However, I firmly believe that it can be stopped, despite what my fellow Dream World Tiering Contributors may think. Dragonite, Slowbro, and Tentacruel are among the threats that can stop its sweep cold thanks to their defensive capabilities. It fails to 2HKO DD + Subnite at +2, while Slowbro and Tentacruel can both survive the hit at +2 and retaliate. In terms of revenge killing, Scarfers that are above base 80 speed can quickly put an end to it while it Protects on the first turn. Ditto absolutely ruins it as well. I am so surprised when I ladder to see the lack of Ditto. If you're having serious Blaziken problems, then use more Ditto. Breloom can pick off a weakened Blaziken with Mach Punch. Jellicent and Chandelure also can switch in on a Hi Jump Kick and punish it for using the move. Furthermore, Blaziken has lackluster defenses and cannot switch in easily. Weakness to all entry hazards (in a tier that supports Deoxys-S) further stop its reign of terror.
Honestly, I think that's where the problem with Blaziken lies: lack of creativity. I'd like to think that there are creative measures that can be used to stop it. The Baton Pass can be stopped with simple phazing, Perish Song, Trick Room, and a host of other means. Priority Thunder Wave, Focus Sash (especially on Magic Guard Alakazam), and Mach Punch Breloom are all great means of stopping a weakened Blaziken. Changing the weather often hurts Blaziken; it hates residual damage (especially in conjunction with LO) and doesn't function properly in Rain. In fact, if you're going to be using Blaziken, you'll find that it's most effective on a Sun team. Unfortunately for it, playing with Sun is an uphill battle: Ninetales is a terrible Pokemon and it is weak to all other forms of weather. When I see calcs posted, they are almost always taking into account hazards and sunlight. However, in all my time of using Blaziken, I've never found the odds to be stacking so awkwardly in my favor. Another weather is almost always dominating the field and finding time to set up hazards is difficult in this highly offensive metagame. While the calcs may seem convincing, I have not found such optimal circumstances when I've utilized Blaziken. I am not convinced that Blaziken needs to be banned at this time. Rather, I believe it has the positive effect of finally giving Sun some validity in a metagame filled with Rain and Sand-based threats. In conclusion, I do not want to ban Blaziken at this point in time from the Dream World metagame.
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Originally Posted by Fat Frizy
I will be voting to ban Blaziken. Here, I will talk about both the sweeping Blaziken set (Flare Blitz/Hi Jump Kick/Swords Dance/Protect) and the Baton Pass set (Swords Dance/Baton Pass/Substitute or Protect/Hi Jump Kick or Flare Blitz). I’ll probably talk more about the sweeper set, as I have much more experience with it.
First, let’s look at the sweeper set. There are very, very few answers to this set, especially when combined with sun support. The most commonly cited checks to Blaziken are: Breloom (revenge), Gyarados, Dragonite, Salamence, Jellicent, Slowbro, Gliscor, and Tentacruel. Breloom and Dragonite need Blaziken to be around 50% for them to revenge with Mach Punch/Extremespeed, otherwise Blaziken kills both of them with Sun +2 Flare Blitz (after sr for Dragonite). Gyarados and Salamence are both outsped and ko’d by Hi Jump Kick after Stealth Rock (Blaziken can protect and get two boosts versus scarfmence). Jellicent is 2hko’d by a +2 Flare Blitz in the Sun (68% chance to be ko’d with Life Orb), while it only does 40% maximum with Scald, while Tentacruel suffers the same fate. If Blaziken holds Air Balloon, Gliscor can be used to obtain another Swords Dance boost. Regardless, Gliscor is ko’d by a +2 Flare Blitz in the sun anyway. The only true counter to Blaziken is Slowbro, who is pretty much forced to carry Psychic (or Thunder Wave, which kind of cripples it), otherwise it’s in the same boat as Tentacruel/Jellicent.
What about not letting it set up, then? The problem with this is that, especially if Blaziken holds Air Balloon (the best item!), there are quite a few areas for him to set up. Chandelure locked into Energy Ball/Hidden Power Ice, Mamoswine, Gliscor, and Ferrothorn lacking Thunder Wave are only just a couple of examples. This isn’t including all the pokemon that it can scare out; after a Protect, many pokemon are forced out thanks to Blaziken’s sheer force and speed. Sure, you can predict and try to cripple Blaziken by Thunder Waving it with pokemon such as Ferrothorn and Blissey, but you risk having it attack and kill an important member of your team instead of Swords Dancing. Usually the only thing stopping pure sweeper Blaziken is it killing itself through recoil, or getting outpredicted against something like tar + chandelure.
Baton Pass is a completely different monster. Blaziken by itself is an amazing sweeper in its own right, but the ability to pass +2/+2 rather easily to other sweepers is absolutely scary. Bulky waters stopping your sweep? No problem, just pass your boosts to Dragonite, Garchomp, or even Serperior; who still enjoys the +2 Speed. What separates Blaziken from something like Ninjask is the fact that Blaziken, even with Baton Pass taking up a moveslot, makes for a respectable sweeper in its own right. It still hits incredibly hard with a +2 Flare Blitz, or +2 Hi Jump Kick while retaining the ability to escape counters and turn a different pokemon into a complete monster.
To conclude, sweeper Blaziken hits like a truck and has almost no counters with the correct support, while Baton Pass allows you to sweep with other, equally dangerous pokemon in the face of a Blaziken counter. Both sets also do not have too great of difficulty in setting up. Ban Blaziken.
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Apr 20th, 2012, 1:15:45 AM
