Counter that DW Pokémon - MkII

[mostwanted]

Counter that Dream World Pokémon!

Approved by Dream World Moderators

Many of you have seen this layout of a project before in the other subforums in DST. The basic idea is that one user posts a Pokemon allowed within the DW tier with its complete moveset. The next poster then can choose any Pokemon they'd like (that's allowed within the tier) to counter it. Then the following poster counters THAT Pokemon that was used to counter the first threat. And so the circle of life continues.

I feel that the new DW subforum has the potential to make full use of one of these topics by melding our previous knowledge of sets from standard OU with those of this newer tier. In my opinion, it's more imperative to have a countering thread here more than in any other subforum. Perhaps it will help ease the endless masses of BW OU players into our varied tier and get more players involved. Simple enough? Good. However, there are a few rules:

• Please reserve the Pokemon that you are going to counter. If it ends up that someone posted before you because you didn't see their reservation, tough luck; delete your post and counter the next Pokemon! Please edit in your revision within 20 minutes of reserving.
• List the entire moveset of the Pokemon you are countering with. This includes abilities, moves, items, natures, EVs, and the like. Sprites are also highly recommended (they can be found here). Be as creative as you like with these sets. That's half the fun!
• Provide reasoning for your choice, the more detailed, the better. Your reasoning behind the Pokémon should be atleast 5-7 lines. This is a learning experience for everyone, not a "let me show you how good I am at the pogeymans" experience. As we venture forth in this semi-unexplored tier, it'd be excellent to have some concrete reasoning behind our thoughts! DO NOT REPEAT the sets that have been already used!
• If a proposed counter is not actually a surefire counter, feel free to discuss this. Test your counter before posting it, or take a while to theorymon correctly. Also propose remedies to the problems to help further everyone's understanding! However, that proposed counter is still the next Pokemon in line to receive a new counter. So don't post new sets even if you think the original one is wrong.
• Discussion is allowed and encouraged! Try to be as thoughtful as you can be within this topic. Please keep it civil though; no put downs.

Used Pokémon List

To make things easier for all of us, I will go through the entire thread and sum up how many times each Pokemon was used, please use Ctrl + F to check before posting. Sure, it may not contain all the sets, but if you must use a Pokemon that was used many times before, atleast bring an unorthodox set.

Updated Post #15

---

• Genesect - 1
• Tyranitar - 1
• Carracosta - 1
• Ferrothorn - 1
• Heatran - 1
• Keldeo - 1
• Jellicent - 1
• Breloom - 1
• Xatu - 1
• Latias - 1
• Scizor - 1
• Skarmory - 1
• Chandelure - 1

If you have any questions, feel free to send me off a PM or VM! If we ever get lost, I'll try my best to upright our capsizing ship of a discussion. Best of luck to everyone! Let's begin.

[mostwanted]

Genesect @ Life Orb
Trait: Download
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
~ Rock Polish
~ Flamethrower
~ Ice Beam
~ Thunderbolt

One of the best late-game sweepers in the current metagame, hands down. It sits at a frightening 606 Speed after a Rock Polish, outspeeding even Jolly Excadrill in the sand; this ensures that fast Choice Scarf users such as Terrakion and Latios will not be able to rain on Genesect's parade. Thanks to its numerous resistances, getting a Rock Polish off isn't too difficult and since it causes so many switch-ins, it can snag a Special Attack boost by Download, and set up Rock Polish as the opponent brings in something to take Genesect's U-turn. Flamethrower decimates fire and grass-type mons; Ice Beam shuts down dragons such as Dragonite and Garchomp; Thunderbolt complements well with its other attacks by taking out water-type foes. The given EVs maximize Genesect's potential to be an effective sweeper. Life Orb provides much needed power boost which turns many 2HKOs to OHKOs.

[Taylor]

Tyranitar (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 136 SDef / 88 Spd
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Stealth Rock
- Pursuit / Crunch
- Low Kick / Ice Beam

(Seeing how I can't be sure Focus Sash won't get a critical hit straight to its face, a bulkier Tyranitar is very popular in Dream World)

Alternatively you can run either Air Balloon / Shed Shell / Lum Berry on your Tyranitar, and I recommend in that order. Air Balloon and Shed Shell are notably useful as Earthquake is very common; evading the move with a timely switch is beneficial. Balloon reliably checks these Ground-type monsters in sand, as their coverage tends to be widespread.

Genesect fails to OHKO Tyranitar while either one of those Fire-type moves listed and Life Orb will ensure Tyranitar prevails in most cases.

Lum Berry was suggested under the assumption one of those elemental attacks' inflicts their respective status conditions.

[Tomahawk9]

Too many slashes!


Carracosta @ Life Orb
Trait: Solid Rock
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Shell Smash
- Aqua Jet
- Stone Edge
- Waterfall

Carracosta walls that Tyranitar quite easily; resisting Fire Blast and Ice Beam, while with 133 base Defense and Solid Rock it easily shrugs off Crunch and Low Kick. It can then KO with Waterfall or threaten to KO and Shell Smash to go for a sweep. Pair this with rain support and it can be really threatening.
But doesn't Carracosta suck? Well, you shouldn't underestimate it. After a Shell Smash it reaches a very respectable 819 Attack stat when factoring in Life Orb, which when combined with rain means its attacks are gonna hurt. It's poor Speed also gets doubled so that it outspeeds Serperior and everything slower. This is usually enough because what is commonly used as a revenge killer in Dream World? Scarf Chandelure gets OHKOed by Aqua Jet, and the same goes for Excadrill, Hasty Genesect is KOed by Aqua Jet in rain. People also think Keldeo can wall this because it resists both STAB moves, but Waterfall in the rain KOes. It's not all good though for Carracosta; Breloom and Ferrothorn are its worst enemies and both are quite common. Breloom KOes with Mach Punch after a Shell Smash or can tank a hit if Carracosta hasn't Shell Smashed and KO with Bullet Seed. Ferrothorn can take a hit even after a Shell Smash in rain and KO with Power Whip.

[Jimbon]

I thought of Ferrothorn about 5 seconds before I saw you mention it..


Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spe)
- Power Whip
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Leech Seed

Carracosta? Psh. Say hello to Ferrothorn, one of the 5th Generation's greatest Defensive threats. Ferrothorn does a great job of walling Carracosta, resisting both of its STABs and can cripple it with Thunder Wave or kill it off with Power Whip. A +2 Life Orb Stone Edge does 31-37% at best, only managing to score a 3HKO at best, and even more frightening, a +2 Life Orb Rain Boosted Waterfall does 37-44%, needing a couple layers of Spikes to grant the 2HKO regarding Max Damage hits. It's not just Carracosta that Ferrothorn can take a hit from, +1 Conkeldurr, +2 Flying Gem Gliscor, +2 Balloon Excadrill, +0 Life Orb Keldeo all fail to OHKO. A whole list of other common Dream World threats can be stopped by Ferrothorn; it also boasts great Mixed Defensive stats, being able to stop more than just the physical threats..

[Tomahawk9]

Ferrothorn is a good counter to Carracosta but I wouldn't try to stop the other Pokmeon you mentioned with it.

252 +1 Atk Conkeldurr (+Atk) Drain Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Ferrothorn (+Def) : 72,44% - 86,08%
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

252 +2 Atk Flying Gem Gliscor (+Atk) Acrobatics vs 252 HP/252 Def Ferrothorn (+Def) : 80,4% - 94,89%
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

252 +3 Atk Excadrill (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252 HP/252 Def Ferrothorn (+Def) : 77,84% - 92,05%
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers) (also, +3 Attack Excadrill? Not sure what you meant here.)

252 SpAtk Life Orb Keldeo Secret Sword vs 252 HP/252 Def Ferrothorn (+Def) : 61,36% - 72,44%
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

[Cicada]

Heatran @ Leftovers
Trait: Fire Flash
EVs: 248 HP / 100 SpD / 160 Spe
Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)
- Lava Plume
- Toxic
- Protect
- Roar

Heatran fears nothing from Ferrothorn and OHKO it cleanly with his Fire-STAB. Plus, he does have a ton of resistances which, coupled with its nice base 91/106/106 defenses makes it a very potent wall. He does have a good niche in any metagames, tanking some Outrages and stuff from those pesky Dragon-types and is a reliable counter to Genesect in DW for example. If they don't have something to KO it, Steel-types have no chances against him. Futhermore, he's a good answer against Sun-based teams which in general struggle against it.

[NatGeo]

Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Trait: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+SpA, -Atk)
-Hydro Pump
-Surf
-Secret Sword
-Hidden Power [Ghost]

You can switch in on a Toxic and immediately threaten Heatran with Specs Surf, or Hydro Pump if you don't mind the accuracy and are in the mood to clean up the opponent's team. Specs Keldeo is really powerful and probably one of the better sets to use in this metagame right now, since it's just an absolute monster under rain; Modest Specs Hydro Pump 2HKOes Blissey but you only need Timid to OHKO a lot of Pokemon and 2HKO most Dragon-types, bar stuff like the Latis who outspeed and KO with STAB Psyshock. On that note, faster Pokemon are pretty much the only way you can take care of this besides Amoonguss! ^_^

[Kidogo]

Jellicent @ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)
Recover
Toxic
Scald
Taunt

Pretty much the best keldeo counter out there. Jellicent is immune to both of keldeo's STABs and can toxic it and proceed to stall it out. In fact, even HP [ghost] does 46% at max, meaning that with leftovers jellicent is guaranteed to survive two HP [ghost]s even with SR damage factored in. Furthermore, HP [ghost] allows for easy switches to teammates, a fact easily capitalized on given the above-normal damage and thus obviousness of the item. This jellicent is also incredibly useful for checking just about every special attacker in DW bar electric or grass ones, taking less than 50% from +1 genesect's thunderbolt, for instance. Having scald gives it the ability to combat physical attackers, while taunt shuts down bulky waters and set-uppers.

[TrollFreak]

Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant

- Spore
- Seed Bomb
- Substitute
- Focus Punch

Can switch in on any attack, though Scald burns will be annoying, activate Toxic Orb to make it immune to status, and easily blast through Jellicent with Seed Bomb

[Tomahawk9]

Xatu @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold nature
- Psychic
- Hidden Power Fire
- FeatherDance
- Roost

Walls Breloom easily; Magic Bounce makes it immune to Spore, and it 4x resists Focus Punch and resists Seed Bomb. STAB Psychic OHKOes Breloom back. Hidden Power Fire hits Ferrothorn and Forretress which lets you bounce back hazards easier. FeatherDance lets you wall physical attackers more effectively, and finally Roost provides solid recovery. This gets trapped by Chandelure, so either use Shed Shell > Leftovers or have a good way of dealing with it.

[Jimbon]

Latias @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Recover

This Latias set uses Xatu as setup fodder. It can very easily get a free Substitute, whilst not having to worry about FeatherDance. From here, it can Calm Mind up freely resisting both of Xatu's offensive moves. After each Calm Mind Xatu's Psychic / Hidden Power [Fire] are doing less to break Latias' substitutes. What's more? When Latias is running low on health, it can easily get back up to full using Recover, walling Xatu entirely.

[Vanity]

Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability : Technician
EVs:252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Atk
Adamant Nature
- Roost
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite

Sets up all over Latias, and uses Roost to heal when weakened. Latias also takes significant damage even from an unboosted Bug Bite, and can OHKO Latias. Scizor also wall Latias' only attack all day.

[Kidogo]

Skarmory @ Shed Shell / Leftovers
Ability : Sturdy
EVs:252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock / Spikes
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Brave Bird

Skarmory is bar none the best scizor counter, especially to the bulky SD set, thanks to its resistance to bullet punch and 4x resistance to scizor's bug attacks. While scizor sets up or feebly attempts to damage skarmory, it can set up stealth rock for the team or, if you already have it covered, spikes. Meanwhile, it can roost off any damage taken and whirlwind scizor out, racking up hazards damage along the way. Furthermore, skarmory combos very well typing-wise with many pokemon that are scizor bait, such as lati@s, slowbro, and even tyranitar to an extent, allowing it to form effective defensive cores. Skarmory's superb defensive typing and stats allow him to serve as a counter to many of DW's top physical threats, including garchomp, excadrill, landorus, gliscor, and breloom, meaning he will be useful in just about every battle.

[VerbingVerber]

Chandelure @ Fighting Gem
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
Chandelure acts as the perfect feint against Skarmory. 4 Special Defence EVs allow minimum damage on the switch into Skarmoy's Rocks, and prevents Genesect from getting the boost it needs. Some previous damage will determine what item Skarm is holding; if it's Shed Shell just Sub on the switch out, Leftovers will get melted by a Fire Blast.
The item is to guarantee the 2HKO on the inevitable Ttar, but if you prefer taking Life Orb damage + Sub + very likely hazards + very like Sandstorm, go ahead. Pain Split is recommended over either HP, or SB in that case. Subelure (cool name, eh?) can also function very well on a sun team, where Fire Blast is boosted, and the Fighting Gem can also take out opposing Heatrans.

[chenboy3]

Politoed@Leftovers / Chesto Berry
Ability: Drizzle
Careful nature
EVs: 248 HP 16 SpA 244 SpD
-Scald
-Protect
-Toxic
-Ice Beam/Perish Song/Rest

A reasonable stop to Chandelure (not counter because it doesn't have reliable recovery), given the following calcs:
252 SpAtk Chandelure Shadow Ball vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Politoed (+SpDef) : 26.56% - 31.51% : 4-5 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

Meanwhile, with 16 SpA evs Politoed can ohko Chandelure with Scald in the rain, and even if Chandy has a sub up, it is forced out.
(Note that if the team with Chandelure is running opposing weather, Politoed will be severely weakened, so a ChestoRest set is also an option)

Toxic allows Politoed to hit Keldeo, Chomp, Ttar, Loom, etc. on the switch, and Protect helps Politoed gain extra leftovers recovery as well as scout for Genesect's move and so forth.

Ice Beam is mainly filler, but can nail Garchomp on the switch for huge damage (81.56%-97.21%), but Perish Song is an option to stop Manaphy or something else on the switch in.

[Sewa]

Celebi@Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
Modest Nature
EVs: 76HP/ 252SpA / 180 Spe
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power Fire/Ice
- Earth Power
- Recover

Celebi can come in and take little even from Ice Beam thanks to 100/100/100 bulk and scare it with stab SE grass moves. The EVs are for giving max power and good bulk, while outspeeding every non-scarfed Heatran and adamant Lucario and kill them with Earth Power. HP of choice is to nail Scizor, that is 2HKOed under rain, or dragons that can think they can setup on you. With Natural Cure, it can heal off Toxic or random burns from Scald.

[HardCore]

Gengar (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Pain Split
- Substitute

Gengar counters Celebi pretty well in general. Celebi rarely has a psychic move and this set in particular doesn't, so Gengar can come in only fearing Hp Fire. Even at + 2 Hp Fire isn't going to do much to Gengar and Celebi is forced to either switch or prevent Gengar from getting a substitute. Gengar's Lo Shadow Ball OHKOs Celebi and may even be in position to get a large pain split or sub on the next Pokemon based on how that scenario plays out. I would personally go for the Sub, because there are more speedy threats in DW OU than the current BW OU.