Research Week #5: The Forgotten Suspects - Page 2

-Manaphy-- · May 17th, 2012, 8:45:49 PM

I don't see what would want to make you use Volcarona over Reshiram or Ho-Oh as a Sun abuser. Even worse is the fact that unlike Reshiram or Ho-Oh Kyogre is a completely safe switch-in. I won't go much into Dragonite or Reuniclus because they're mainly outclassed by Rayqauza/Arceus and Mewtwo. (Who is bulkier than Reuniclus, lol)

shrang · May 17th, 2012, 10:13:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Giant Enemy Crab

I find all these Pokemon completely underwhelming and not up to scratch. I don't mean to sound offensive but this is a terrible research week, everything has been proven to not work in Ubers basically before this. You have Reuniclus, a mon that can beat stall.... except stall is extremely rare. You have Dragonite, 'just another dragon' - completely outclassed by Ray/Mence and Volcarona that would be decent if Kyogre wasn't #1.

Ah well, we did foresee none of them being really that useful, but seeing as we are "researching", we should probably expect to see failures.

Anyway, after a number of battles, I finally have a log where Reuniclus did something significant:

...

Its bulk looks okay, it was nice seeing it do ~80% to Dark Arceus with Focus Blast, but what was unacceptable was the fact that Reuniclus can't even OHKO Mewtwo with Shadow Ball, which really disappointed me.

Tomahawk9 · May 18th, 2012, 3:06:44 AM

Okay, Volcarona sucks.

First of all, hazards are extremely common in Ubers. That goes with three great spinblockers who are very hard to spin against. Forretress is pretty much the only viable spinner on sun teams, and it can't dream of spinning against those three spinblockers. At least Ho-Oh has Roost and Reshiram isn't 4x weak to Stealth Rock. Shell Smash Cloyster with Rapid Spin can be used, but it has a hard time setting up against something and really I don't want to be forced to use one Pokemon to make another slightly usable.

Secondly, there's pretty much nothing it can set up on. Almost everything can take a unboosted hit from Volcarona, or outspeed it. Not to mention Dragon Tail is extremely common, and that kills Volcarona due to its horrible Defense and hazard weakness. The only things it can set up on are Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Scizor. Actually, not even Scizor, as it 2HKOes with Bullet Punch after Stealth Rock, so if you stay in and Quiver Dance you're done for. After SR + 2 layers of Spikes it always KOes in one hit as well. So there's Ferrothorn, and Forretress. Ferrothorn is used on a rain team most of the time, which means it's paired with Kyogre which has an easy time countering Volcarona, and there's Giratina-O and Tentacruel which are both common on rain teams as well and take on Volcarona easily (granted Tentacruel needs Volcarona to have a little residual damage). Forretress is used on sun teams mostly, and it's almost always paired with either Giratina-A or Giratina-O. Both have no problem taking on Volcarona, as the former only has a 18% chance of being 2HKOed by +1 Life Orb Fire Blast in the sun, while it can Dragon Tail Volcarona out for more Stealth Rock damage aka it dies. Giratina-O on the other hand always KOes Volcarona with Dragon Tail after SR damage, while Shadow Sneak 2HKOes or has a good chance of KOing after SR + 1 round of LO, while +1 LO Fire Blast doesn't KO Giratina-O.

Also, it has a lot of common counters: Kyogre is the most prominent one, but there's also Giratina, Rayquaza, Giratina-O, Tyranitar, Ho-Oh, Reshiram, Terrakion, Tentacruel, Chansey, Blissey, Salamence, etc.

locoghoul · May 18th, 2012, 3:12:43 AM

^ Just got 1255 with Volcarona after beating the leaderboard on the ladder. Will post pics and team once I've reached my highest mark. But yeah, it's not a great poke.

**trickroom** · May 18th, 2012, 5:31:57 AM

I will just be straight and say I have tried all three of those. None were awesome actually. Of all the three, I will say Volcarona might have the best chance to shine. Although it's defenses are crap by Ubers standards, +1 Fire Blast can OHKO things like Arceus in the sun.

Dragonite is just outclassed defensively in Ubers by Lugia, Giratina and Arceus. Offensively, Rayquaza is way better. Salamence has a much greater Speed and Moxie so it can use that set effectively even in Ubers. Since Dragon-type attacks are so common in Ubers don't expect Dragonite to live long even with Multiscale. Also, Dragonite is slower than all of them.

Reuniclus is supposed to beat stall, but it boosts so slowly and not quite bulky especially when uninvested. Lugia also walls Reuniclus to death or just use Sub to stall it out. Mewtwo is much better as a sweeper. Also Mewtwo is actually bulkier than Reuniclus lol. Darkrai sleeps Reuniclus and KOes it next turn. Reuniclus does however gets to set up on Forretress, Blissey, Ferrothorn and Tentacruel, all of which are moderately common in Ubers.

**Furai** · May 19th, 2012, 1:02:08 PM

I want to refer to the posts saying that this Research Week blows. One of Research Weeks purposes is to discover new Pokemon to the metagame, just like Landorus made it in. What if these Pokemon actually were Uber? We're simulating the situation. We will not know if a Pokemon is viable in the tier unless we put it up to the TEST. While I do understand your concern and disappointment, it's a good way to understand Pokemon's functionality in the metagame. This Research Week will not be passed on; you could atleast give it a chance, from my experience with Volcarona, which I will refer to now, it has been very fun!

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Okay, so I broke into the Bronze Class with Volcarona.

Screenshot

Team

Theorymon encouraged me to use this set:

Volcarona (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flame Body
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Sunny Day
- Quiver Dance
- Morning Sun
- Flamethrower

This Volcarona his super annoying for rain teams. The Special Defense boost from Quiver Dance is so great, that in conjuction with Sunny Day, you can beat non-Calm Mind Kyogre. Moreover, if you lure a Draco Meteor from Dialga or Palkia and such, use a Steel-type to tank it or just sacrifice something, to send in Volcarona and set up. I chose Flamethrower over Fire Blast or Fiery Dance for the additional PP which can be helpful on the long run. Bug Buzz or Hidden Power Rock are very solid options over Sunny Day (and Morning Sun as well if you wish to go offensive), but that set has worked out nicely for me. Flame Body is also pretty great, as if you are about to be swept by Extreme Killer Arceus, Swords Dance Rayquaza and such, you can just sacrifice Volcarona and hope for the 30% burn. It's worth taking the risk instead of being outright swept, right?

Rapid Spin and sun support are a MUST. I used Offensive Groudon because it outspeeds a lot and hits like a fucking truck. That Groudon is really amazing. I didn't pick Toxic Spikes on Forretress because I wanted Volt Switch so I could bring Volcarona safely. I tried Giratina over Terrakion and Scarf Palkia over the SubPuncher, but I Giratina just hurt the offensive nature of the team, so I switched it out.

puregenius · May 20th, 2012, 1:27:53 AM

silver class is good enough for me
same team as before
also dnite is growing on me :3

S3rris · May 20th, 2012, 9:12:17 PM

Still time to give this a shot right? Going to try Volcarona.

alt: Iron Rain

Donkey · May 21st, 2012, 11:09:35 PM

dragonite since only viable poke

in: yes city

In these challenges its also important to consider that the poke being researched's viability might not actually reflect in the ladder ranking the team achieved. There are many combinations of 5 pokes that can do well on the uber ladder, and the 6th is sometimes used to just enhance the team, and isn't vital to the synergy or team at all.

Poppy · May 21st, 2012, 11:32:46 PM

you could probably wreck most of the ladder with a 5 pokemon stall team

S3rris · May 22nd, 2012, 2:57:35 PM

Looks like the ladder got reset. Too bad, I peaked at 1220ish (give or take a few points). Volcarona's performance was okay, however you pretty much NEED spin support. Which for ubers is easier said than done, so many things love setting up on forretress.

I tried a few different things, chesto rest didnt yield me many results, could never find a good time to boost up, and I greatly missed a 3rd (coverage) attack. I tried the rain moth set from the analysis more for laughs than anything. It did alright to be honest, however Hurricane has this nasty tendency to leave things at about 10 hp, after rocks. This could be remedied with a life orb, but I personally don't like the item unless the poke has some means of recovery.

So then I moved on to a style of play I have never really tried before, Baton Passing. I have no shame, I know. My reasoning was that I "ideally" needed +2 to get a clean sweep, however I was likely being forced out or risking taking a huge hit while getting the second dance up. Smash Passing with Smeargle was a pretty quick fix, allowing Volcarona, or anything for that matter, to come in for free basically and be ready to go.

This didn't come without drawbacks however, as Extremespeed s kind of a thing in ubers, a -1 moth gets promptly owned. So I usually have my first boosted sweeper being a Dialga (but of course) or a mixed Giratina-O. After the first sweeper falls, Volcarona never really had any trouble cleaning up. All in all I would say that while Volcarona is powerful, it just feels like a waste of a team slot ultimately. Its tough to support in such a harsh environment, and in my experience more often than not you can't afford to give up momentum to support the moth, it will ultimately lose you the game.

I might give the ladder another whirl here, but after being 2 wins away and now having to start over is kind of a downer for me. I might just move onto a new team, or revisit some of my other relatively successful ubers teams.

Donkey · May 22nd, 2012, 3:40:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Tomahawk9

Okay, Volcarona sucks.

First of all, hazards are extremely common in Ubers. That goes with three great spinblockers who are very hard to spin against. Forretress is pretty much the only viable spinner on sun teams, and it can't dream of spinning against those three spinblockers. At least Ho-Oh has Roost and Reshiram isn't 4x weak to Stealth Rock. Shell Smash Cloyster with Rapid Spin can be used, but it has a hard time setting up against something and really I don't want to be forced to use one Pokemon to make another slightly usable.

Secondly, there's pretty much nothing it can set up on. Almost everything can take a unboosted hit from Volcarona, or outspeed it. Not to mention Dragon Tail is extremely common, and that kills Volcarona due to its horrible Defense and hazard weakness. The only things it can set up on are Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Scizor. Actually, not even Scizor, as it 2HKOes with Bullet Punch after Stealth Rock, so if you stay in and Quiver Dance you're done for. After SR + 2 layers of Spikes it always KOes in one hit as well. So there's Ferrothorn, and Forretress. Ferrothorn is used on a rain team most of the time, which means it's paired with Kyogre which has an easy time countering Volcarona, and there's Giratina-O and Tentacruel which are both common on rain teams as well and take on Volcarona easily (granted Tentacruel needs Volcarona to have a little residual damage). Forretress is used on sun teams mostly, and it's almost always paired with either Giratina-A or Giratina-O. Both have no problem taking on Volcarona, as the former only has a 18% chance of being 2HKOed by +1 Life Orb Fire Blast in the sun, while it can Dragon Tail Volcarona out for more Stealth Rock damage aka it dies. Giratina-O on the other hand always KOes Volcarona with Dragon Tail after SR damage, while Shadow Sneak 2HKOes or has a good chance of KOing after SR + 1 round of LO, while +1 LO Fire Blast doesn't KO Giratina-O.

Also, it has a lot of common counters: Kyogre is the most prominent one, but there's also Giratina, Rayquaza, Giratina-O, Tyranitar, Ho-Oh, Reshiram, Terrakion, Tentacruel, Chansey, Blissey, Salamence, etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the point of ubers research week to try and find a niche for certain pokes, not just list their flaws and deem it unusable?

First off, I want to address the SR weakness. Volcarona has Morning Sun and can use a Rest/Chesto set (since Volcarona is a sweeper, you don't need reliable Roost recovery like Ho-Oh). Stealth Rocks are also not impossible to stop. Stalltwo, Taunt Gliscor, Whimsicott, Sableye, Xatu, Espeon, etc all can do an ok job at blocking SR from certain pokes. If you really hate Dialga and Taunt on Mewtwo doesn't work for you, run a banded Groudon to surprise it. There are many things you can do to prevent SR.

Second, Tyranitar does not counter Volcarona (Bug Buzz), Chansey/Blissey can check Volcarona once(Rest/chesto set usually can beat Chansey), and any bulky water (Tentacruel, Gastrodon, etc) loses to a Volcarona with recovery in the sun. You can put something like HP Rock to hit Ho-oh/Rayquaza/Reshiram/Salamence as well, which would improve Volcarona's coverage and viability quite a bit. Kyogre is obviously a hard counter, but you can run Arceus-Grass, Ferrothorn, Gastrodon, Palkia, or Giratina-A to help alleviate that problem. You have to really focus on team support, and breaking Kyogre/Giratina.

However, a good player who has a Giratina and an SR poke will probably have 0 problems with Volcarona, so I do agree that it does suck and I would never use it. But it isn't as bad as you describe, although it is pretty bad.

Edit, got Rank 1:

...

Rank 1 means so much right now, I know.

**kd24** · May 22nd, 2012, 10:29:20 PM

i would like to enter as fuck the king and i would like to use volcarona

Poppy · May 22nd, 2012, 11:52:04 PM

ok since ladder reset in as poppy

i'll be using all three on and off

locoghoul · May 23rd, 2012, 7:38:18 PM

Now that the ladder is reset, I don't see the point on laddering with the RW pokes. So, I'll just post when I first got past the 1250 mark

rank

I used a Chesto/Rest set and overall I ended up using Volc as fodder most of times. Even when I had the sun up, Giras would just wall me. Only cool thing was to tie with scarf Palkia or the random burns on Ray/Arceus when trying to revenge. There is no way to effectively use it. Max speed is necessary, priority just rapes it, if you go with bulky set, then it doesn't do much damage until you hit to +3.

Faint · May 23rd, 2012, 9:54:17 PM

using volc under Faint Likes Men.

**kd24** · May 23rd, 2012, 11:16:46 PM

Choice Scarf Volcarona

Volcarona (F) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Flame Body
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- U-turn
- Bug Buzz
- Overheat
- Hidden Power [Rock]

Bug Buzz vs 4 HP/0 SDef Mewtwo
369 Atk vs 216 Def & 354 HP (90 Base Power): 332 - 392 (93.79% - 110.73%)
Average Roll: 101.69%

This is a OHKO 59% of the time.

Bug Buzz vs 4 HP/0 SDef Darkrai
369 Atk vs 216 Def & 282 HP (90 Base Power): 332 - 392 (117.73% - 139.01%)

OHKO 100% of the time

Overheat in the sun vs 100 HP/0 SDef Arceus
369 Atk vs 276 Def & 406 HP (140 Base Power): 301 - 355 (74.14% - 87.44%)

Can not OHKO without prior damage. Still, an impressive amount. (This Arceus is Extremekiller running 100 HP/252 Atk/168 Spe which outspeeds Jolly Ray)

U-Turn vs 4 HP/0 Def Deoxys-A
141 Atk vs 76 Def & 242 HP (70 Base Power): 282 - 332 (116.53% - 137.19%)

OHKOs 100% of the time

Hidden Power Rock vs 4 HP/0 SDef Rayquaza
369 Atk vs 216 Def & 352 HP (70 Base Power): 172 - 204 (48.86% - 57.95%)

Can revenge weakened DD Ray or SD Ray who don't want to risk Burn with Extremespeed and opt to Earthquake. You can use Hidden Power Ice if Ray is too much of a threat.

Hidden Power Rock vs 4 HP/0 SDef Reshiram
369 Atk vs 276 Def & 342 HP (70 Base Power): 136 - 160 (39.77% - 46.78%)

Specs Reshiram is a huge threat to stall teams so having a Pokemon that can take a decent chunk out of a weak to SR Pokemon can be very helpful.

Personally, I think Volcarona sucks, but I do think it has utility as a Choice Scarfer on Stall Teams. Stall has a huge problem vs offensive threats I listed above and Volcarona does an actually pretty good job at revenging most of them, or at least finishing off mons that are troublesome to Stall. I've begun using it on my team and it works well vs more "offensive orientated teams". Forretress Rapid Spin Support and weaknesses that aren't too debilitating (Water and Rock can be switched into and countered).

I really don't think there is any reason to run an offensive Volcarona with Quiver Dance...there are way too many switches that can be brought in to stop you, and the 4x SR weakness is killer. I would much rather just use Ho-oh or Reshiram.

Also, there is nothing better than watching nerds rage when Volcarona KOs their stall team killer.

Faint is an outstanding user, and kept my will alive as I trembled to build this creation. If anyone wants to give it a try and post their results with it, feel free to.

Faint · May 23rd, 2012, 11:26:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat kd24

Choice Scarf Volcarona

Volcarona (F) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Flame Body
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- U-turn
- Bug Buzz
- Overheat
- Hidden Power [Rock]

Bug Buzz vs 4 HP/0 SDef Mewtwo
369 Atk vs 216 Def & 354 HP (90 Base Power): 332 - 392 (93.79% - 110.73%)
Average Roll: 101.69%

This is a OHKO 59% of the time.

Bug Buzz vs 4 HP/0 SDef Darkrai
369 Atk vs 216 Def & 282 HP (90 Base Power): 332 - 392 (117.73% - 139.01%)

OHKO 100% of the time

Overheat in the sun vs 100 HP/0 SDef Arceus
369 Atk vs 276 Def & 406 HP (140 Base Power): 301 - 355 (74.14% - 87.44%)

Can not OHKO without prior damage. Still, an impressive amount. (This Arceus is Extremekiller running 100 HP/252 Atk/168 Spe which outspeeds Jolly Ray)

U-Turn vs 4 HP/0 Def Deoxys-A
141 Atk vs 76 Def & 242 HP (70 Base Power): 282 - 332 (116.53% - 137.19%)

OHKOs 100% of the time

Hidden Power Rock vs 4 HP/0 SDef Rayquaza
369 Atk vs 216 Def & 352 HP (70 Base Power): 172 - 204 (48.86% - 57.95%)

Can revenge weakened DD Ray or SD Ray who don't want to risk Burn with Extremespeed and opt to Earthquake. You can use Hidden Power Ice if Ray is too much of a threat.

Hidden Power Rock vs 4 HP/0 SDef Reshiram
369 Atk vs 276 Def & 342 HP (70 Base Power): 136 - 160 (39.77% - 46.78%)

Specs Reshiram is a huge threat to stall teams so having a Pokemon that can take a decent chunk out of a weak to SR Pokemon can be very helpful.

Personally, I think Volcarona sucks, but I do think it has utility as a Choice Scarfer on Stall Teams. Stall has a huge problem vs offensive threats I listed above and Volcarona does an actually pretty good job at revenging most of them, or at least finishing off mons that are troublesome to Stall. I've begun using it on my team and it works well vs more "offensive orientated teams". Forretress Rapid Spin Support and weaknesses that aren't too debilitating (Water and Rock can be switched into and countered).

I really don't think there is any reason to run an offensive Volcarona with Quiver Dance...there are way too many switches that can be brought in to stop you, and the 4x SR weakness is killer. I would much rather just use Ho-oh or Reshiram.

Also, there is nothing better than watching nerds rage when Volcarona KOs their stall team killer.

Faint is an outstanding user, and kept my will alive as I trembled to build this creation. If anyone wants to give it a try and post their results with it, feel free to.

Keep in mind you can also run Fire Blast for consistent power or Fiery Dance for a late game sweep with some luck (SpA boosts).

barry4ever · May 24th, 2012, 7:30:12 AM

With the ladder reset making ladder rating useless for this Research Week, I'd like to divert this Research Week to the more Theorymon / Research aspect of it. First off responding to all that criticism of this Research Week, I'd like to say that it was thought of as an interesting concept of how the some of Pokemon earlier deemed suspect in OU would perform in Ubers. There was no thought devoted to the fact whether any of these Pokemon would be viable in Ubers at all. That is the purpose of this research week.

Reuniculus @ Life Orb
Trait: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SpDef
Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Trick Room

Anyway, I decided to give Reuniculus a spin since I've already tried both Volcarona and Dragonite and both were subpar. I saw a couple of CM Reuni's on the ladder but I think you're trying to beat a dead horse if you're using CM Reuni in Ubers. So, I decided to give TR Reuni a shot. Surprisingly, it performed quite amazingly. Its actually perfect for a Sandstorm team since it takes on Fighting Arceus very easily and takes no residual damge from Sand. It is usable on any kind of TR team or hell any standard team with a bit of thought. However if you really want Reuniculus to be effective and possibly smash your opponents team, its best to bring it a bit later when the opponents mons have taken a fair bit of damage since Psyshock and Focus Blast admitted fail to ohko anything of note by themselves.

Calcs

Faint · May 24th, 2012, 7:07:09 PM

I am going to re-enter as "Faint" using Reuniculus.

My rating should be 1000 since I have not laddered on that account since the reset. If a mod sees this please delete my previous post saying I'm using Volcarona.

Hopefully I can make this work.

syrim · May 29th, 2012, 10:22:15 PM

It was obvious before beginning this research week that each of the potential Pokemon would have to fill niche roles in order to pull their weight in this threatening tier, so I sought the Pokemon that could do this in the broadest way, while being outclassed to the least possible extent. Before choosing my Pokemon, I attempted to decide which would be able to fulfill the most potential roles, successfully.

Reuncilus holds an excellent ability, and it’s movepool fits its needs well, but its relative lack of power damaged the viability of what I thought was its most effective set, the Trick Room set. It is unable to break through many threatening Pokemon that will OHKO it the next turn, or beat it with priority, such as Kyogre, Extreme Killier Arceus (Arceus@Life Orb (252 EVs, +Nature) Extremespeed vs Reuniclus (252/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 52.5 ~ 62.2% (223 ~ 264 HP-Focus Blast fails to OHKO, and either SD+Espeed, or Shadow Claw +Espeed beat Rank the next turn), Giratina-O(Giratina-O@Griseous Orb (236 EVs, Neutral Nature) Draco Meteor vs Reuniclus@Life Orb (252/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 69.3 ~ 81.6% (294 ~ 346 HP), (Giratina-O@Griseous Orb (252 EVs, +Nature) Shadow Sneak vs Reuniclus@Life Orb (252/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 48.5 ~ 58% (206 ~ 246 HP), and many, many more, just to demonstrate the common nature of its checks. Many defensive Pokemon also phaze Trick room Reunclius, as Barry4ever’s calcs have shown, namely specially defensive Giratina, Lugia, and bulky Kyogre, roar or Crogre variants . Reuncilus sub-par bulk, by Uber’s standards at least, also made the Calm Mind set unable to get very far against teams that carried a strong attacker that could survive one boosted attack, which as I have shown above, and Barry4Ever’s calcs help demonstrate, is an extremely large group of Pokemon. Sadly, this meant that it was outclassed by Mewtwo in nearly every way. Power, bulk, sweeping potential, and even stall breaking belonged to the original uber. Even in what should have been a perfect scenario for it, a standard stall team, it often failed to get past common stall Pokemon such as Lugia, or it was easily phased and whittled down by Pokemon such as Groudon and Giratina, or outright KOed by common stall scarfers. This is why, in my opinon, Reuncilus is not overtly useful, and it’s pre-evolution can perform arguably better for a Trick room team, while the Calm mind set is hopelessly underwhelming.

Volcarona didn’t really hold any distinguishing characteristics to me, though under the right circumstances it definitely did not suffer Reuncilus’ lack of power. Though it had some interesting sets, such as Furai and Theorymon’s Sunny Day set, they all suffered from a few glaring problems, and every set required massive team support. Firstly, it had to choose between coverage, recovery, and being dead weight against the most common and best Pokemon in the tier, all unappealing options, for different reasons. If one chose to run a 3 attack set, you lacked any kind of recovery, which meant that the often multiple boosts needed to sweep an uber team were very hard to grab, and made it more unlikely that Volcarona would be able to take advantage of the Sp Def. boost. Even in this case, the relative lack of power in rain, and the propensity to be forced out, or KOed, by its inability to OHKO certain threats such as Kyogre and Gira-o/A made even heightened coverage useful only if the conditions were perfect, meaning it relied heavily on the performance of its teammates, and this Pokemon still has to pick its posion, as one Hidden Power, or even Hurricane, will not let it beat Kyogre, Giratina, and Heatran. If one chose the second or third option, and sacrificed coverage in order to have recovery, or beat Kyogre with Sunny Day, Volcarona was helplessly walled by Pokemon that could threaten it directly, and if Stealth Rock was on the field, it became hopeless against some of the strongest defensive Pokemon in the game, namely the Giratina forms, bulky Kyogre, Fire resistant Arceus forms, and of course Heatran. This is also a Special booster with no way to beat Chansey reliably, as even Chesto Rest can lose to Seismic Toss/Wish Chansey, and considering the nature of a booster with recovery, this is a huge hurdle for it to overcome, as the abundance of resists to its STABs and its lower power if one takes this road, means the slow boosting it is meant to achieve allow Chansey to beat it simply with Toxic. But on the massive amount of team support needed, for any Volcarona set to be effective, it must have a very reliable means of Stealth rock prevention/removal, a Kyogre counter, a reliable Extreme Killer check, a means of beating Gira-A, Gira-O, Arceus Rock, and depending on the HP type, Ho-Oh, Rayquaza, Heatran, and if the weather is not in your favor, Palkia, Kingdra, and many other Rain based sweepers, so an extremely reliable method of weather control is needed, which is nearly as difficult as Stealth Rock prevention against a decent player. While I appreciated the innovative approach of KD24, even a choiced set falls victim to Volcarona’s big weakness to entry hazards and priority, which makes it an unreliable at best check to dangerous sweepers. So based on the massive amount of support Volcarona needs to function, with any set, the extremely large list of potential counters, many of which are among the most threatening and common Pokemon in the tier, its need to choose its poison, or 4MSS, in my opinion Volcarona is not worthy of a team slot.

Lastly there was Dragonite. I’d have to agree with Donkey in that “Dragonite since only viable Poke.” When trying to find a niche for these Pokemon, Dragonite’s qualities in the metagame made it by far the easiest to build around. Its typing, bulk, and movepool, made it relatively easy to find multiple potential sets. Though it appreciates the removal of SR, it can function with it down to an extent, because of the abundance of choiced water type attacks, something Volcarona cannot do. It also has a very wide movepool, more powerful Base Power moves, and a few sets that are arguably not directly outclassed, which is what really caused me to chose Dragonite. Mix Dragonite has a few qualities that set it apart, namely its access to a very strong Fighting type move, and Multiscale, the first of which allows it to insure denting Ferrothorn and namely Dialga after a SpA drop, or in the rain. Multiscale also allows it to put unexpected pressure on important Pokemon on the opponents team, providing Stealth rock isn’t up, such as Palkia. The Dragon Dance set is largely outclassed, but it has the ability to set up on a much wider range of attacks than Rayquaza or Salamence, due mostly to an intact Multiscale, but also its good special bulk. The band set also thrives on Multiscale, but in my opinon is sub-par as well, due to its low base speed, which forces Dragonite to choose between bulk, or being potentially KOed by its likely switch ins should Multiscale be down, such as Groudon and Lugia. It also lacks a way to reliably break steels in the rain, and can risk locking itself into very weak attacks by uber standards if it does not use outrage. The set I chose was designed to fill a niche, while trying to not be outclassed.

Team:http://pastebin.com/B4iLmWQ5

Ranking: Pre Reset-http://www.smogon.com/forums/convers...45129&u2=39203

(the early reset took me by suprise, so Antar was kind enough to look up my ranking for me)

Post Reset-

...

I broke into the Gold ranking both before and after the reset, and had good experiences with Dragonite througout. It performed well against many of the more standard teams, and kept me from being swept clean by many of the more fringe, or just simply hard to counter, Ubers threats that pop up on the ladder, time and time again.

Set-

...

It’s very similar to Lugia’s set, but it has a few distinguishing features. Due to the STAB and high attack behind Dragon Tail, as well as Hurricane’s decent strength, it can actually damage certain phaze outs namely Tentacruel, while doing good damage on Forretress switch ins. The propensity to be spun on is one of many Sub/Phazer’s largest issues, and this set attempts to mitigate that, while still providing great team support. It can set up on very common Pokemon, mostly Ferrothorn, Chansey, Kyogre locked into the wrong move and a few others. It can also make Ferrothorn a liability, a huge boon to teams that have trouble with it, like common rain stall teams. When used with a strong hazard core, this sets ability to continuously phaze out Pokemon can quickly add up. It outspeeds most of the common users of roar/Dragon tail, the only one who commonly beats it is ironically Lugia. It can even beat Groudon’s sun with this approach, if enough hazards, especially Toxic Spikes, are down, making it a valuable means of weather control, as the opponent is always pressured to cancel out rain, due to Hurricane. Its bulk combined with Mulitscale, and its typing, make it easy to fit onto many teams. It can provide an excellent Water, Ground, Grass, and Fighting resist, just to name some relatively common attacking types in Uber’s. Multiscale allows it to phaze out deadly opponents, such as Crogre that have acquired too many boosts for much else to handle, any Arceus form bar Ice lacking Substitute, Rock Polish Groudon, Palkia variants, and many more common Pokemon. This allows it to function extremely well on balanced or stall based teams, especially rain teams that rely on Toxic spikes to damage certain threats enough to make them manageable. Even if there are no Pokemon for Dragonite to set up on, this ability to force out dangerous sweepers means it will not often be dead weight, the key reason I chose it. It has the ability to switch into some very dangerous attacks if Multiscale is up, such as Choice Specs Kyogre’s Water Spout, assuming it outspeeds, or a layer of hazards is down. Multiscale also eases the cost of mispredictions, as it is not likely to be outright KOed by many attacks, indeed it is not likely to go below 25% health from many single attacks, which lets it still fulfill its primary role of setting up on slower, weaker Pokemon, and phasing till hazards take their toll. Substitute does a lot for this set, more than the already valuable blocking of status. It allows it to potentially beat Pokemon that can OHKO it, even if Multiscale is down, and eases prediction greatly, like against Draco Meteor Dialga for instance.

But the set is certainly not without its weaknesses. It has to predict to switch into even the things it flourishes on, e.g. it cannot come into a Ferrothorn Leech Seed, or a Skarmory Whirlwind. It also loses much of its pressure on the opponent if they are able to successfully prevent it from activating Multiscale, which is not as simple as keeping Stealth Rock off. Even if SR is up, if Dragonite has a chance to sub it can surely activate it again, which allows it to severly dent whatever comes in to force it out, like a Palkia, or Dialga, as there are very few phazers which will be able to outspeed it. But if Multiscale is out of the question, and oppurtunites to sub are not to be found, then Dragonite is simply an SR weak Water resistance, and can often allow the opponent to put greater pressure on your core. But oppurtunites to sub are pretty common, especially against rain teams, as any choiced Water attack, bar a fast Choice Specs Water Spout at full health, allows it to set up even if Multiscale is down.It is also arguably outclassed by Lugia, though I would submit that its unpredictability allows it the ability to lure in the Pokemon it will set up on much moreso than Lugia could hope for running a similar set, and the Water resistance, as well as Multiscale, set it apart in a big way.

In short, Dragonite is the only one of the three that seems to be able to pull its own weight, and not be completely outclassed, in a multitude of situations, and it requires much less support than the other two options. But, one thing is definitive. To function in this harsher environment, the OU suspects had to drastically alter their general function, and to make them viable many players turned these Pokemon to roles very different than their OU staples, such as a low level endeavor Reuncilus, and Sunny Day Volcarona. In my opinion this largely shows the inviability of the suspects, Dragonite less so than the other two options, but it is still forced to assume a niche role, and set up on an extremely limited group of Pokemon, and be dependent on the extremely difficult act of Rapid Spinning in Ubers. I would argue that it is the only one of the three who can claim to hold something over the Pokemon that mostly overshadows it(Reun), AND be able to beat(and potentially set up on), as opposed to be extremely weak to, many of the most common Pokemon in the tier(Volcarona).

Multiscale Calcs-

Without Multiscale- Palkia@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Surf vs Dragonite@Leftovers (236/120 EVs, Neutral Nature): 29.8 ~ 35.3% (114 ~ 135 HP) (Rain)

Without Multiscale-Palkia@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Spacial Rend vs Dragonite@Leftovers (236/120 EVs, Neutral Nature): 84.8 ~ 100.5% (324 ~ 384 HP) (Rain)
Palkia@Lustrous Orb (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Spacial Rend vs Dragonite@Leftovers (236/120 EVs, Neutral Nature): 102 ~ 119.8% (390 ~ 458 HP) (Rain)

As you can see, with Leftovers, Dragonite can stall even Lustrous Orb Palkia out of Spacial Rend, assuming Multiscale is active, and there are no crits.

Dragonite@Leftovers (0 EVs, -Nature) Dragon Tail vs Palkia@Lustrous Orb (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 47.3 ~ 56% (152 ~ 180 HP) (Rain)

It can also deal a pretty good amount back.

Without Multiscale-Kyogre@Choice Specs (252 EVs, +Nature) Surf vs Dragonite@Leftovers (236/120 EVs, Neutral Nature): 49.4 ~ 58.1% (189 ~ 222 HP) (Rain)

Without Multiscale-Kyogre@Choice Specs (252 EVs, +Nature) Water Spout vs Dragonite@Leftovers (236/120 EVs, Neutral Nature): 77.7 ~ 91.8% (297 ~ 351 HP) (Rain)

If Dragonite outspeeds Specs Kyogre, it can take any Water assault it can throw. And if there is a layer of hazards down, it can damage it, or phaze it, to make it completely manageable the next time Dragonite is to switch in to a Water Spout, even at the low health Dragonite will be at.

Without Multiscale-Kyogre@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, +Nature) Ice Beam vs Dragonite@Leftovers (236/120 EVs, Neutral Nature): 118.3 ~ 139.2% (452 ~ 532 HP) (Rain)

So Dragonite can easily survive even a modest Ice Beam with Multiscale, and still have enough HP to sub once, assuming there is no SR, easing prediction should your opponent carry a potential set up opportunity like Ferrothorn.

Without Multiscale- Kyogre@Choice Specs (252 EVs, +Nature) Ice Beam vs Dragonite@Leftovers (236/120 EVs, Neutral Nature): 176.9 ~ 208.3% (676 ~ 796 HP) (Rain)

As you can see though their are certainly limits to this forgiveness.

Without Multiscale-Dialga@Leftovers(252 EVs, +Nature) Draco Meteor vs Dragonite@Leftovers (236/120 EVs, Neutral Nature): 129.3 ~ 152.8% (494 ~ 584 HP) (Rain)

As you can see, by abusing Multiscale OR substitute, which allows eases prediction, Dragonite can even weather, and heal through, STAB Dragon attacks.

Donkey · May 29th, 2012, 10:41:34 PM

You lack a fundamental understanding of how to take screenshots.

You're good at building teams though, grats on the peak.

**Furai** · Jun 4th, 2012, 2:17:18 AM

Okay guys, this Research Week is over! Congratulations to Syrim, who now has permanent VOps in #ubers.

Next Research Week will be something a little bit different, and very exciting! Personally -- I'm looking forward to it and I can't wait.

May 17th, 2012, 8:45:49 PM	#26
-Manaphy-- Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 337 New York	I don't see what would want to make you use Volcarona over Reshiram or Ho-Oh as a Sun abuser. Even worse is the fact that unlike Reshiram or Ho-Oh Kyogre is a completely safe switch-in. I won't go much into Dragonite or Reuniclus because they're mainly outclassed by Rayqauza/Arceus and Mewtwo. (Who is bulkier than Reuniclus, lol) __________________ <Scofield> I never got a chance to tell you about the time i met a girl named shucca <@JabbaTheGriffin> i would have started making ground move puns, and then when she doesn't get them you go "oh that wasn't as effective as i thought it'd be"

May 18th, 2012, 3:06:44 AM	#28
Tomahawk9 Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,439	Okay, Volcarona sucks. First of all, hazards are extremely common in Ubers. That goes with three great spinblockers who are very hard to spin against. Forretress is pretty much the only viable spinner on sun teams, and it can't dream of spinning against those three spinblockers. At least Ho-Oh has Roost and Reshiram isn't 4x weak to Stealth Rock. Shell Smash Cloyster with Rapid Spin can be used, but it has a hard time setting up against something and really I don't want to be forced to use one Pokemon to make another slightly usable. Secondly, there's pretty much nothing it can set up on. Almost everything can take a unboosted hit from Volcarona, or outspeed it. Not to mention Dragon Tail is extremely common, and that kills Volcarona due to its horrible Defense and hazard weakness. The only things it can set up on are Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Scizor. Actually, not even Scizor, as it 2HKOes with Bullet Punch after Stealth Rock, so if you stay in and Quiver Dance you're done for. After SR + 2 layers of Spikes it always KOes in one hit as well. So there's Ferrothorn, and Forretress. Ferrothorn is used on a rain team most of the time, which means it's paired with Kyogre which has an easy time countering Volcarona, and there's Giratina-O and Tentacruel which are both common on rain teams as well and take on Volcarona easily (granted Tentacruel needs Volcarona to have a little residual damage). Forretress is used on sun teams mostly, and it's almost always paired with either Giratina-A or Giratina-O. Both have no problem taking on Volcarona, as the former only has a 18% chance of being 2HKOed by +1 Life Orb Fire Blast in the sun, while it can Dragon Tail Volcarona out for more Stealth Rock damage aka it dies. Giratina-O on the other hand always KOes Volcarona with Dragon Tail after SR damage, while Shadow Sneak 2HKOes or has a good chance of KOing after SR + 1 round of LO, while +1 LO Fire Blast doesn't KO Giratina-O. Also, it has a lot of common counters: Kyogre is the most prominent one, but there's also Giratina, Rayquaza, Giratina-O, Tyranitar, Ho-Oh, Reshiram, Terrakion, Tentacruel, Chansey, Blissey, Salamence, etc. __________________ C&C Work \| Smog Work

May 18th, 2012, 3:12:43 AM	#29
locoghoul Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 674 Charlotte	^ Just got 1255 with Volcarona after beating the leaderboard on the ladder. Will post pics and team once I've reached my highest mark. But yeah, it's not a great poke. __________________ Ubers RMT Corona Blast! Girotina's Revenge Here comes the Sun

May 19th, 2012, 1:02:08 PM	#31
Furai standing in the eye of the hurricane Moderator Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,096	I want to refer to the posts saying that this Research Week blows. One of Research Weeks purposes is to discover new Pokemon to the metagame, just like Landorus made it in. What if these Pokemon actually were Uber? We're simulating the situation. We will not know if a Pokemon is viable in the tier unless we put it up to the TEST. While I do understand your concern and disappointment, it's a good way to understand Pokemon's functionality in the metagame. This Research Week will not be passed on; you could atleast give it a chance, from my experience with Volcarona, which I will refer to now, it has been very fun! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay, so I broke into the Bronze Class with Volcarona. Screenshot Team Theorymon encouraged me to use this set: Volcarona (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Flame Body EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Sunny Day - Quiver Dance - Morning Sun - Flamethrower This Volcarona his super annoying for rain teams. The Special Defense boost from Quiver Dance is so great, that in conjuction with Sunny Day, you can beat non-Calm Mind Kyogre. Moreover, if you lure a Draco Meteor from Dialga or Palkia and such, use a Steel-type to tank it or just sacrifice something, to send in Volcarona and set up. I chose Flamethrower over Fire Blast or Fiery Dance for the additional PP which can be helpful on the long run. Bug Buzz or Hidden Power Rock are very solid options over Sunny Day (and Morning Sun as well if you wish to go offensive), but that set has worked out nicely for me. Flame Body is also pretty great, as if you are about to be swept by Extreme Killer Arceus, Swords Dance Rayquaza and such, you can just sacrifice Volcarona and hope for the 30% burn. It's worth taking the risk instead of being outright swept, right? Rapid Spin and sun support are a MUST. I used Offensive Groudon because it outspeeds a lot and hits like a fucking truck. That Groudon is really amazing. I didn't pick Toxic Spikes on Forretress because I wanted Volt Switch so I could bring Volcarona safely. I tried Giratina over Terrakion and Scarf Palkia over the SubPuncher, but I Giratina just hurt the offensive nature of the team, so I switched it out. __________________ *#gohard* \| Wolfpack (Ubers RMT)

May 21st, 2012, 11:09:35 PM	#34
Donkey Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 211 Sasha uses Smashpass	dragonite since only viable poke in: yes city In these challenges its also important to consider that the poke being researched's viability might not actually reflect in the ladder ranking the team achieved. There are many combinations of 5 pokes that can do well on the uber ladder, and the 6th is sometimes used to just enhance the team, and isn't vital to the synergy or team at all. Last edited by barry4ever; May 22nd, 2012 at 12:02:23 AM. Reason: dont double post, use edit function

May 20th, 2012, 1:27:53 AM	#32
puregenius Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 167	silver class is good enough for me same team as before also dnite is growing on me :3

May 20th, 2012, 9:12:17 PM	#33
S3rris Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 13 US	Still time to give this a shot right? Going to try Volcarona. alt: Iron Rain

May 21st, 2012, 11:32:46 PM	#35
Poppy SYMPTOMATIC OF A GREATER ILL Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,421 brisbane	you could probably wreck most of the ladder with a 5 pokemon stall team __________________ erotically erudite

May 22nd, 2012, 2:57:35 PM	#36
S3rris Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 13 US	Looks like the ladder got reset. Too bad, I peaked at 1220ish (give or take a few points). Volcarona's performance was okay, however you pretty much NEED spin support. Which for ubers is easier said than done, so many things love setting up on forretress. I tried a few different things, chesto rest didnt yield me many results, could never find a good time to boost up, and I greatly missed a 3rd (coverage) attack. I tried the rain moth set from the analysis more for laughs than anything. It did alright to be honest, however Hurricane has this nasty tendency to leave things at about 10 hp, after rocks. This could be remedied with a life orb, but I personally don't like the item unless the poke has some means of recovery. So then I moved on to a style of play I have never really tried before, Baton Passing. I have no shame, I know. My reasoning was that I "ideally" needed +2 to get a clean sweep, however I was likely being forced out or risking taking a huge hit while getting the second dance up. Smash Passing with Smeargle was a pretty quick fix, allowing Volcarona, or anything for that matter, to come in for free basically and be ready to go. This didn't come without drawbacks however, as Extremespeed s kind of a thing in ubers, a -1 moth gets promptly owned. So I usually have my first boosted sweeper being a Dialga (but of course) or a mixed Giratina-O. After the first sweeper falls, Volcarona never really had any trouble cleaning up. All in all I would say that while Volcarona is powerful, it just feels like a waste of a team slot ultimately. Its tough to support in such a harsh environment, and in my experience more often than not you can't afford to give up momentum to support the moth, it will ultimately lose you the game. I might give the ladder another whirl here, but after being 2 wins away and now having to start over is kind of a downer for me. I might just move onto a new team, or revisit some of my other relatively successful ubers teams.

May 22nd, 2012, 10:29:20 PM	#38
kd24 Surprise Mother Fucker Moderator Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 4,769 HOME	i would like to enter as fuck the king and i would like to use volcarona __________________ My YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheLemondrop7

May 22nd, 2012, 11:52:04 PM	#39
Poppy SYMPTOMATIC OF A GREATER ILL Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,421 brisbane	ok since ladder reset in as poppy i'll be using all three on and off __________________ erotically erudite

May 23rd, 2012, 7:38:18 PM	#40
locoghoul Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 674 Charlotte	Now that the ladder is reset, I don't see the point on laddering with the RW pokes. So, I'll just post when I first got past the 1250 mark rank I used a Chesto/Rest set and overall I ended up using Volc as fodder most of times. Even when I had the sun up, Giras would just wall me. Only cool thing was to tie with scarf Palkia or the random burns on Ray/Arceus when trying to revenge. There is no way to effectively use it. Max speed is necessary, priority just rapes it, if you go with bulky set, then it doesn't do much damage until you hit to +3. __________________ Ubers RMT Corona Blast! Girotina's Revenge Here comes the Sun

May 23rd, 2012, 9:54:17 PM	#41
Faint Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 927 Boston, MA	using volc under Faint Likes Men.

May 23rd, 2012, 11:16:46 PM	#42
kd24 Surprise Mother Fucker Moderator Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 4,769 HOME	Choice Scarf Volcarona Volcarona (F) @ Choice Scarf Trait: Flame Body EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - U-turn - Bug Buzz - Overheat - Hidden Power [Rock] Bug Buzz vs 4 HP/0 SDef Mewtwo 369 Atk vs 216 Def & 354 HP (90 Base Power): 332 - 392 (93.79% - 110.73%) Average Roll: 101.69% This is a OHKO 59% of the time. Bug Buzz vs 4 HP/0 SDef Darkrai 369 Atk vs 216 Def & 282 HP (90 Base Power): 332 - 392 (117.73% - 139.01%) OHKO 100% of the time Overheat in the sun vs 100 HP/0 SDef Arceus 369 Atk vs 276 Def & 406 HP (140 Base Power): 301 - 355 (74.14% - 87.44%) Can not OHKO without prior damage. Still, an impressive amount. (This Arceus is Extremekiller running 100 HP/252 Atk/168 Spe which outspeeds Jolly Ray) U-Turn vs 4 HP/0 Def Deoxys-A 141 Atk vs 76 Def & 242 HP (70 Base Power): 282 - 332 (116.53% - 137.19%) OHKOs 100% of the time Hidden Power Rock vs 4 HP/0 SDef Rayquaza 369 Atk vs 216 Def & 352 HP (70 Base Power): 172 - 204 (48.86% - 57.95%) Can revenge weakened DD Ray or SD Ray who don't want to risk Burn with Extremespeed and opt to Earthquake. You can use Hidden Power Ice if Ray is too much of a threat. Hidden Power Rock vs 4 HP/0 SDef Reshiram 369 Atk vs 276 Def & 342 HP (70 Base Power): 136 - 160 (39.77% - 46.78%) Specs Reshiram is a huge threat to stall teams so having a Pokemon that can take a decent chunk out of a weak to SR Pokemon can be very helpful. Personally, I think Volcarona sucks, but I do think it has utility as a Choice Scarfer on Stall Teams. Stall has a huge problem vs offensive threats I listed above and Volcarona does an actually pretty good job at revenging most of them, or at least finishing off mons that are troublesome to Stall. I've begun using it on my team and it works well vs more "offensive orientated teams". Forretress Rapid Spin Support and weaknesses that aren't too debilitating (Water and Rock can be switched into and countered). I really don't think there is any reason to run an offensive Volcarona with Quiver Dance...there are way too many switches that can be brought in to stop you, and the 4x SR weakness is killer. I would much rather just use Ho-oh or Reshiram. Also, there is nothing better than watching nerds rage when Volcarona KOs their stall team killer. Faint is an outstanding user, and kept my will alive as I trembled to build this creation. If anyone wants to give it a try and post their results with it, feel free to. __________________ My YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheLemondrop7

May 24th, 2012, 7:07:09 PM	#45
Faint Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 927 Boston, MA	I am going to re-enter as "Faint" using Reuniculus. My rating should be 1000 since I have not laddered on that account since the reset. If a mod sees this please delete my previous post saying I'm using Volcarona. Hopefully I can make this work.

May 29th, 2012, 10:22:15 PM	#46
syrim 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1 Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 230 x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1 Mentor	It was obvious before beginning this research week that each of the potential Pokemon would have to fill niche roles in order to pull their weight in this threatening tier, so I sought the Pokemon that could do this in the broadest way, while being outclassed to the least possible extent. Before choosing my Pokemon, I attempted to decide which would be able to fulfill the most potential roles, successfully. Reuncilus holds an excellent ability, and it’s movepool fits its needs well, but its relative lack of power damaged the viability of what I thought was its most effective set, the Trick Room set. It is unable to break through many threatening Pokemon that will OHKO it the next turn, or beat it with priority, such as Kyogre, Extreme Killier Arceus (Arceus@Life Orb (252 EVs, +Nature) Extremespeed vs Reuniclus (252/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 52.5 ~ 62.2% (223 ~ 264 HP-Focus Blast fails to OHKO, and either SD+Espeed, or Shadow Claw +Espeed beat Rank the next turn), Giratina-O(Giratina-O@Griseous Orb (236 EVs, Neutral Nature) Draco Meteor vs Reuniclus@Life Orb (252/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 69.3 ~ 81.6% (294 ~ 346 HP), (Giratina-O@Griseous Orb (252 EVs, +Nature) Shadow Sneak vs Reuniclus@Life Orb (252/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 48.5 ~ 58% (206 ~ 246 HP), and many, many more, just to demonstrate the common nature of its checks. Many defensive Pokemon also phaze Trick room Reunclius, as Barry4ever’s calcs have shown, namely specially defensive Giratina, Lugia, and bulky Kyogre, roar or Crogre variants . Reuncilus sub-par bulk, by Uber’s standards at least, also made the Calm Mind set unable to get very far against teams that carried a strong attacker that could survive one boosted attack, which as I have shown above, and Barry4Ever’s calcs help demonstrate, is an extremely large group of Pokemon. Sadly, this meant that it was outclassed by Mewtwo in nearly every way. Power, bulk, sweeping potential, and even stall breaking belonged to the original uber. Even in what should have been a perfect scenario for it, a standard stall team, it often failed to get past common stall Pokemon such as Lugia, or it was easily phased and whittled down by Pokemon such as Groudon and Giratina, or outright KOed by common stall scarfers. This is why, in my opinon, Reuncilus is not overtly useful, and it’s pre-evolution can perform arguably better for a Trick room team, while the Calm mind set is hopelessly underwhelming. Volcarona didn’t really hold any distinguishing characteristics to me, though under the right circumstances it definitely did not suffer Reuncilus’ lack of power. Though it had some interesting sets, such as Furai and Theorymon’s Sunny Day set, they all suffered from a few glaring problems, and every set required massive team support. Firstly, it had to choose between coverage, recovery, and being dead weight against the most common and best Pokemon in the tier, all unappealing options, for different reasons. If one chose to run a 3 attack set, you lacked any kind of recovery, which meant that the often multiple boosts needed to sweep an uber team were very hard to grab, and made it more unlikely that Volcarona would be able to take advantage of the Sp Def. boost. Even in this case, the relative lack of power in rain, and the propensity to be forced out, or KOed, by its inability to OHKO certain threats such as Kyogre and Gira-o/A made even heightened coverage useful only if the conditions were perfect, meaning it relied heavily on the performance of its teammates, and this Pokemon still has to pick its posion, as one Hidden Power, or even Hurricane, will not let it beat Kyogre, Giratina, and Heatran. If one chose the second or third option, and sacrificed coverage in order to have recovery, or beat Kyogre with Sunny Day, Volcarona was helplessly walled by Pokemon that could threaten it directly, and if Stealth Rock was on the field, it became hopeless against some of the strongest defensive Pokemon in the game, namely the Giratina forms, bulky Kyogre, Fire resistant Arceus forms, and of course Heatran. This is also a Special booster with no way to beat Chansey reliably, as even Chesto Rest can lose to Seismic Toss/Wish Chansey, and considering the nature of a booster with recovery, this is a huge hurdle for it to overcome, as the abundance of resists to its STABs and its lower power if one takes this road, means the slow boosting it is meant to achieve allow Chansey to beat it simply with Toxic. But on the massive amount of team support needed, for any Volcarona set to be effective, it must have a very reliable means of Stealth rock prevention/removal, a Kyogre counter, a reliable Extreme Killer check, a means of beating Gira-A, Gira-O, Arceus Rock, and depending on the HP type, Ho-Oh, Rayquaza, Heatran, and if the weather is not in your favor, Palkia, Kingdra, and many other Rain based sweepers, so an extremely reliable method of weather control is needed, which is nearly as difficult as Stealth Rock prevention against a decent player. While I appreciated the innovative approach of KD24, even a choiced set falls victim to Volcarona’s big weakness to entry hazards and priority, which makes it an unreliable at best check to dangerous sweepers. So based on the massive amount of support Volcarona needs to function, with any set, the extremely large list of potential counters, many of which are among the most threatening and common Pokemon in the tier, its need to choose its poison, or 4MSS, in my opinion Volcarona is not worthy of a team slot. Lastly there was Dragonite. I’d have to agree with Donkey in that “Dragonite since only viable Poke.” When trying to find a niche for these Pokemon, Dragonite’s qualities in the metagame made it by far the easiest to build around. Its typing, bulk, and movepool, made it relatively easy to find multiple potential sets. Though it appreciates the removal of SR, it can function with it down to an extent, because of the abundance of choiced water type attacks, something Volcarona cannot do. It also has a very wide movepool, more powerful Base Power moves, and a few sets that are arguably not directly outclassed, which is what really caused me to chose Dragonite. Mix Dragonite has a few qualities that set it apart, namely its access to a very strong Fighting type move, and Multiscale, the first of which allows it to insure denting Ferrothorn and namely Dialga after a SpA drop, or in the rain. Multiscale also allows it to put unexpected pressure on important Pokemon on the opponents team, providing Stealth rock isn’t up, such as Palkia. The Dragon Dance set is largely outclassed, but it has the ability to set up on a much wider range of attacks than Rayquaza or Salamence, due mostly to an intact Multiscale, but also its good special bulk. The band set also thrives on Multiscale, but in my opinon is sub-par as well, due to its low base speed, which forces Dragonite to choose between bulk, or being potentially KOed by its likely switch ins should Multiscale be down, such as Groudon and Lugia. It also lacks a way to reliably break steels in the rain, and can risk locking itself into very weak attacks by uber standards if it does not use outrage. The set I chose was designed to fill a niche, while trying to not be outclassed. Team:http://pastebin.com/B4iLmWQ5 Ranking: Pre Reset-http://www.smogon.com/forums/convers...45129&u2=39203 (the early reset took me by suprise, so Antar was kind enough to look up my ranking for me) Post Reset- ... I broke into the Gold ranking both before and after the reset, and had good experiences with Dragonite througout. It performed well against many of the more standard teams, and kept me from being swept clean by many of the more fringe, or just simply hard to counter, Ubers threats that pop up on the ladder, time and time again. Set- ... Dragonite (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Multiscale EVs: 236 HP / 16 SAtk / 120 SDef / 136 Spd Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk) - Substitute - Roost - Hurricane - Dragon Tail It’s very similar to Lugia’s set, but it has a few distinguishing features. Due to the STAB and high attack behind Dragon Tail, as well as Hurricane’s decent strength, it can actually damage certain phaze outs namely Tentacruel, while doing good damage on Forretress switch ins. The propensity to be spun on is one of many Sub/Phazer’s largest issues, and this set attempts to mitigate that, while still providing great team support. It can set up on very common Pokemon, mostly Ferrothorn, Chansey, Kyogre locked into the wrong move and a few others. It can also make Ferrothorn a liability, a huge boon to teams that have trouble with it, like common rain stall teams. When used with a strong hazard core, this sets ability to continuously phaze out Pokemon can quickly add up. It outspeeds most of the common users of roar/Dragon tail, the only one who commonly beats it is ironically Lugia. It can even beat Groudon’s sun with this approach, if enough hazards, especially Toxic Spikes, are down, making it a valuable means of weather control, as the opponent is always pressured to cancel out rain, due to Hurricane. Its bulk combined with Mulitscale, and its typing, make it easy to fit onto many teams. It can provide an excellent Water, Ground, Grass, and Fighting resist, just to name some relatively common attacking types in Uber’s. Multiscale allows it to phaze out deadly opponents, such as Crogre that have acquired too many boosts for much else to handle, any Arceus form bar Ice lacking Substitute, Rock Polish Groudon, Palkia variants, and many more common Pokemon. This allows it to function extremely well on balanced or stall based teams, especially rain teams that rely on Toxic spikes to damage certain threats enough to make them manageable. Even if there are no Pokemon for Dragonite to set up on, this ability to force out dangerous sweepers means it will not often be dead weight, the key reason I chose it. It has the ability to switch into some very dangerous attacks if Multiscale is up, such as Choice Specs Kyogre’s Water Spout, assuming it outspeeds, or a layer of hazards is down. Multiscale also eases the cost of mispredictions, as it is not likely to be outright KOed by many attacks, indeed it is not likely to go below 25% health from many single attacks, which lets it still fulfill its primary role of setting up on slower, weaker Pokemon, and phasing till hazards take their toll. Substitute does a lot for this set, more than the already valuable blocking of status. It allows it to potentially beat Pokemon that can OHKO it, even if Multiscale is down, and eases prediction greatly, like against Draco Meteor Dialga for instance. But the set is certainly not without its weaknesses. It has to predict to switch into even the things it flourishes on, e.g. it cannot come into a Ferrothorn Leech Seed, or a Skarmory Whirlwind. It also loses much of its pressure on the opponent if they are able to successfully prevent it from activating Multiscale, which is not as simple as keeping Stealth Rock off. Even if SR is up, if Dragonite has a chance to sub it can surely activate it again, which allows it to severly dent whatever comes in to force it out, like a Palkia, or Dialga, as there are very few phazers which will be able to outspeed it. But if Multiscale is out of the question, and oppurtunites to sub are not to be found, then Dragonite is simply an SR weak Water resistance, and can often allow the opponent to put greater pressure on your core. But oppurtunites to sub are pretty common, especially against rain teams, as any choiced Water attack, bar a fast Choice Specs Water Spout at full health, allows it to set up even if Multiscale is down.It is also arguably outclassed by Lugia, though I would submit that its unpredictability allows it the ability to lure in the Pokemon it will set up on much moreso than Lugia could hope for running a similar set, and the Water resistance, as well as Multiscale, set it apart in a big way. In short, Dragonite is the only one of the three that seems to be able to pull its own weight, and not be completely outclassed, in a multitude of situations, and it requires much less support than the other two options. But, one thing is definitive. To function in this harsher environment, the OU suspects had to drastically alter their general function, and to make them viable many players turned these Pokemon to roles very different than their OU staples, such as a low level endeavor Reuncilus, and Sunny Day Volcarona. In my opinion this largely shows the inviability of the suspects, Dragonite less so than the other two options, but it is still forced to assume a niche role, and set up on an extremely limited group of Pokemon, and be dependent on the extremely difficult act of Rapid Spinning in Ubers. I would argue that it is the only one of the three who can claim to hold something over the Pokemon that mostly overshadows it(Reun), AND be able to beat(and potentially set up on), as opposed to be extremely weak to, many of the most common Pokemon in the tier(Volcarona). Multiscale Calcs- Without Multiscale- Palkia@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Surf vs Dragonite@Leftovers (236/120 EVs, Neutral Nature): 29.8 ~ 35.3% (114 ~ 135 HP) (Rain) Without Multiscale-Palkia@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Spacial Rend vs Dragonite@Leftovers (236/120 EVs, Neutral Nature): 84.8 ~ 100.5% (324 ~ 384 HP) (Rain) Palkia@Lustrous Orb (252 EVs, Neutral Nature) Spacial Rend vs Dragonite@Leftovers (236/120 EVs, Neutral Nature): 102 ~ 119.8% (390 ~ 458 HP) (Rain) As you can see, with Leftovers, Dragonite can stall even Lustrous Orb Palkia out of Spacial Rend, assuming Multiscale is active, and there are no crits. Dragonite@Leftovers (0 EVs, -Nature) Dragon Tail vs Palkia@Lustrous Orb (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 47.3 ~ 56% (152 ~ 180 HP) (Rain) It can also deal a pretty good amount back. Without Multiscale-Kyogre@Choice Specs (252 EVs, +Nature) Surf vs Dragonite@Leftovers (236/120 EVs, Neutral Nature): 49.4 ~ 58.1% (189 ~ 222 HP) (Rain) Without Multiscale-Kyogre@Choice Specs (252 EVs, +Nature) Water Spout vs Dragonite@Leftovers (236/120 EVs, Neutral Nature): 77.7 ~ 91.8% (297 ~ 351 HP) (Rain) If Dragonite outspeeds Specs Kyogre, it can take any Water assault it can throw. And if there is a layer of hazards down, it can damage it, or phaze it, to make it completely manageable the next time Dragonite is to switch in to a Water Spout, even at the low health Dragonite will be at. Without Multiscale-Kyogre@Choice Scarf (252 EVs, +Nature) Ice Beam vs Dragonite@Leftovers (236/120 EVs, Neutral Nature): 118.3 ~ 139.2% (452 ~ 532 HP) (Rain) So Dragonite can easily survive even a modest Ice Beam with Multiscale, and still have enough HP to sub once, assuming there is no SR, easing prediction should your opponent carry a potential set up opportunity like Ferrothorn. Without Multiscale- Kyogre@Choice Specs (252 EVs, +Nature) Ice Beam vs Dragonite@Leftovers (236/120 EVs, Neutral Nature): 176.9 ~ 208.3% (676 ~ 796 HP) (Rain) As you can see though their are certainly limits to this forgiveness. Without Multiscale-Dialga@Leftovers(252 EVs, +Nature) Draco Meteor vs Dragonite@Leftovers (236/120 EVs, Neutral Nature): 129.3 ~ 152.8% (494 ~ 584 HP) (Rain) As you can see, by abusing Multiscale OR substitute, which allows eases prediction, Dragonite can even weather, and heal through, STAB Dragon attacks. __________________ x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1 x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1 x1x1x1x1 Last edited by syrim; May 30th, 2012 at 8:32:07 AM.

May 29th, 2012, 10:41:34 PM	#47
Donkey Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 211 Sasha uses Smashpass	You lack a fundamental understanding of how to take screenshots. You're good at building teams though, grats on the peak.

Jun 4th, 2012, 2:17:18 AM	#48
Furai standing in the eye of the hurricane Moderator Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,096	Okay guys, this Research Week is over! Congratulations to Syrim, who now has permanent VOps in #ubers. Next Research Week will be something a little bit different, and very exciting! Personally -- I'm looking forward to it and I can't wait. __________________ *#gohard* \| Wolfpack (Ubers RMT)