I'd like to talk about Darkrai

[Matthew]

I was rolling this around a little when I first took over DW, but KD24 and I agreed that it would probably be a poor move. Now that DW has balanced itself out a bit (with a fantastic banlist to boot!) I was wondering what everyone's thoughts on making Darkrai legal in DW. Personally I could see it going either way. We have awesome pokemon like Xatu and Espeon which can bounce back Dark Void. We have the new and improved Breloom (and Hitmonlee to an extent) to plow over it. Genesect to crush it. Ditto to make it setting up a risky move altogether.

While I don't really have a say in the tier anymore, that's Tobes's and Birkal's job now (sucks to be you guys!), I do want to push this around. When I made the tier I did promise I would listen to the people's needs. So I'm going to force Birkal and Tobes to listen to them anyway.

[Harsha]

I would be up for testing this, as there are a multitude of checks for Darkrai. Something that bothers me is how relatively easy it used to sweep in old OU though -- really, while there are better checks, you can just bring up that Choice Scarf Terrakion worked as a check in OU, and that Scizor always dealt major damage to it. I feel as though it would still be an overpowered Pokemon, and that maybe if this test goes through, we could limit the amount of time it stayed in the tier (1-2 weeks or something). Since there is going to be a Dream World ladder reset, we could use that to our advantage and test now or something.

[Tobes]

Darkrai is something I've been giving legitimate consideration to testing. I feel that Dream World should try to push the banlist to a reasonable extent; I'm just not entirely convinced that Darkrai falls under that reasonable extent. There are some decent arguments for it, and I intend to re-test it when BW2 is released and we have the Sacred Beast Formes (along with possibly Deoxys-N, since it never got a "fair" test, though I'm much more skeptical about that one. And no Skymin because it's still a cunt.).

If the public really wants this to happen I'd be willing to test it ahead of schedule, so make yourselves heard if that's what you really want. I'll be monitoring this thread.

[shrang]

Hm, I always did think Darkrai was the least broken out of the suspects banned in round 1 (along wih Deoxys-N), so I wouldn't really mind if it got tested again. Like Harsha, I do think it's still probably too good, but hey, I can't see what's wrong with letting Darkrai loose in the tier for a couple of weeks (definitely better than Chandelure, that's for sure).

[idiotfrommars]

I guess I'm in the minority here when I say that I honestly see no reason to give Darkrai a legitimate shot. I remember back in round one of suspect testing where, at least for me, it was the second most annoying suspect behind Skymin. Sure it has a few more checks in DW, but Geno has really just replaced Scizor so it's not like it gained a check their and scarfers aren't quite as popular due to Excadrill ruining the speed tiers.

[Iceydude168]

The problem with Espeon and Xatu is that if you don't have 100% perfect predictions, Darkrai just Dark Pulsed your poor little Psychic type to death. Essentially you have a 25% chance of succeeding against Darkrai by switching in your Magic Bouncer. If anyone didn't figure it out yet, that 25% chance is Dark Void (and if Darkrai were ever allowed in DW OU, I'm sure Lum Berry would be a very popular option, meaning you essentially commit suicide switching your Magic Bounce Pokemon into Darkrai).
Breloom is the same, if Darkrai decides to run Ice Beam it is dead. It's a really sad excuse for a check, the only moves it can switch into is Nasty Plot (it enjoys an LO Dark Pulse like a person enjoys a bullet, it has no reliable recovery, and LO damage will wear it down really fast).
Scizor isn't as popular in DW OU, mostly being replaced by Genesect (who does not enjoy Focus Blast or Dark Void. Neither of them do, in fact).


The biggest problem with Darkrai is Dark Void - whatever it can't annihilate immediately gets put to Sleep and becomes a big burden for the other player (especially with Gen 5's new sleep mechanics). While you could say Breloom is the same, Darkrai users can mispredict and still KO whatever comes in due to its great coverage,

...

---

(Breloom has to split sets in order to hit everything it needs to hit, i.e. Rock Tomb Loom. Each Breloom set has counters, and while as a whole Breloom has no counters, it doesn't have 8 moveslots either, and each set by itself can be stopped if you know their set. I'm going to move on now, as this isn't a Breloom discussion)

great speed, and amazing Special Attack.

Really gimmicky checks to Darkrai would be Scarf Sleep Talk Heracross (ridiculous overcentralization, Heracross isn't seen very often due to a number of factors I won't get into at this very moment), and Sleep Talk Specially Defensive Toxicroak (a horrible idea useless for anything but checking Darkrai - if it carries a coverage move other than Focus Blast you're fucked)

So do I think reintroduction of Darkrai would be healthy? Naw. The only real differences from Wifi is that TechBreloom is used quite a bit (eaten by Darkrai really easily), Excadrill is allowed (beaten by Focus Blast, common coverage move), and Thundurus is allowed (biggest reason for Darkrai to run Lum Berry is to allow it to beat Thundurus more easily and not end up paralyzed for the rest of the match). The new DW Pokes all get beaten rather easily by Dark Void + Focus Blast.

[bluemon]

i have split opinions of darkrai.

while it willbe cool to see darkrai in dw ou as it seems that there are enough pokes that check/counter him, am still not entirely sure.

thats why i see darkrai as a parallel to jynx of NU.

as you guys might know, jynx recently got banned and i think darkrai is the jynx of DW.

let me demonstrate:

1) similar stat spread.
both jynx and darkrai are specially-inclined offensive mons with speeds pretty high for their respective tiers (95 In NU is pretty fast). they also have sky high special attacking stats for their tiers. they are also, not that bulky.

2. movepools and 4mss
this is a big one. they have almost identical movepools (kinda). most importantly, they both carry sleep moves with respectable accuracies. they also get a strong stab that gets almost perfect coverage in their tiers. They also get nasty plot, a great boosting move for special sweepers. they can both run sub+np sets with great success. this is where the problems come in. 4mss hits them hard. jynx would like to run sub+calm mind+nasty plot+ice beam+psychic+grass knot+focus blast+lovely kiss, but each 4m set has different counters. same withsdarkrai. he can run sub+nasty plot+dark pulse+focus blast+ice beam+extrasensory(does he learn this?)+dark void, but he cannot. this was a problem for both jynx and darkrai. and some of the main points that allowed jynx to stay for some time in NU.

3. counter and checks.
jynx and darkrai have different checks for different movesets. this is worsened by the fact that they both can CHOOSE WHAT POKEMON TO IMMOBILIZE. this is a big point. they are diverse pokemon (heck darkrai can run a swords dance+sucker punch set) with great potentials that might be a wee strong for their respective tier

[Taylor]

I do not support Darkrai for DW.

My personal experience on our "Ubers" ladder was a month+ worth of me gaping wholes in teams that the opponent never seemed to redeem himself/herself from; holding first position on the ladder for this length of time simply due to Darkrai alone. Haunter may attest to this as he was sometimes spectating my Uber run.

This was in our Uber's metagame and while I encourage to test suspects in Dream World, I'm baffled as to how we wind up proposing the idea of Darkrai after banning Blaziken. If we are to nominate Darkrai, why was the question popped after one half of the council deemed Blaziken Uber?

If Blaziken was currently still legal in Dream World then I'd be more optimistic about this suggestion.

[NatGeo]

While I don't feel that it will stay for long, I personally don't think it would be a bad idea to test Darkrai on the DW ladder at this time. This is mainly due to the fact that it has several offensive checks in this meta, ranging from Extremespeed from Dragonite to the common sight of Mach Punch Breloom. A lot of Choice Scarf Pokemon in this meta can outspeed and OHKO it as well - Chandelure, for one, outspeeds all non-Scarf Darkrai and revenge kills easily. Basically, any non-scarf set is easily taken out offensively. On the other hand, Choice Scarf is a lot more difficult to handle depending on how you look at it - Trick + Dark Void is pretty nasty for Stall to handle, but at the same time it's a lot weaker without boosting moves, so a dedicated special wall can tank it once Trick and / or Dark Void have been used up.

tl ; dr I support testing this.

[EXIE]

Darkrai wouldn't stay for long in DW unless Blaziken were reintroduced to offset it (something I wouldn't be impartial to).

[idiotfrommars]

I said this in irc last night but I figured that I would just rehash it here.

The problem with dream world is that half of the players want to see more bans and reach a ban list similar to the one seen in OverUsed. The other half of the players are all for less bans and testing the boundaries of what is actually broken.

The first section won the Blaziken vote, so introducing Darkrai seems extremely counterproductive to what happened before. If we unban Darkrai we may as well just reverse the decision on Blaziken. Before we get too far into testing I really think we should consider what we want out of the dream world meta-game, more bans or less.

[MetaGross66]

Okay, looking back at the Smogon philosophy.

Smogon attempts to avoid bans as much as possible—only when it becomes very apparent that a Pokémon is far too powerful to be in line with a balanced metagame is it banished permanently from the standard arena.

I think this answers your question, idiotfrommars. It shouldn't be necessary to ban something unless it is absolutely without a doubt broken affecting the metagame in a negative way. Darkrai, in my opinion, did just that in the short time it was released in DW when the tier first began. Dark Void essentially knocks a Pokemon out for the whole game giving the user a 5-6 advantage immediately. The fact it also forces a switch makes Darkrai far more difficult to deal with as you don't know if it is going to attack your switchin or set up. You don't want to risk switching your Breloom or Genesect into an LO Focus Blast, for example. There might be more checks to it, but imo it needs actual counters that are viable in the metagame or else you run the risk of making it a centralizing force. This is why I really don't want to see it anywhere else, but in Ubers.

In all, the DW tier is fine as it is. The only thing I'm really looking towards banning is maybe Garchomp (Sand Veil is ridiculous. I've lost like 3 matches to it). Even then, I can still deal with it with some luck and prediction. >.>

[Lockeness]

Darkrai is obviously going to have a huge impact on the metagame. If its brought in on the revenge kill it has an 80% shot of taking out at least one counter before the opponent can even touch it due to its whopping base 120 speed. Darkrai's two big uber factors are Dark Void and Nasty Plot respectively. If any test were to be conducted it would focus around how easily Darkrai could eliminate opposing threats with Dark Void, and its power once it starts sweeping. I would be open to a test, but I have a feeling that it won't stay in DW OU for long. Still, the knowledge we would gain from testing it would be quite useful for determining how our approach to the future of DW OU will change apart from standard OU. As another point- testing it can't really do much harm. It only has to be for a month. We can always ban it if it appears to be too strong. Just my two cents.

[Taylor]

only when it becomes very apparent that a Pokémon is far too powerful to be in line with a balanced metagame is it banished permanently from the standard arena.

I really don't mean to pick at our philosophy...

It's just the ending to this sentence assumes all of us can tell the difference between the "suspect" and its respective "balanced metagame", as if we already have a balanced tier. Dream World, like any tier, is usually under constant monitorization and ongoing trial-and-error runs until the high and mighty are confident that the metagame has settled to a degree where it's not stale, repeatitive, etc.

To add, it may well be just as beneficial to assess new ways to improve team diversity and structure. We should thrive on multiple styles of building teams around weather/offense/defense/ etc.

People feel like a "suspect" imposes on their will to consider other options and new ways to manipulate the metagame. Take a decently minded player when (bam) sparks a fresh idea up in their head, yet knowing deep-down, they would have to stretch the boundaries of what is competitively viable to actually build something that is innovative as it is effective.

Sure, Darkrai would mix up Dream World. I know from personal experience it is one of the most dominating Uber Pokemon because it does seem to possess that "x-factor" by sweeping teams outright or least severely weakening the spine of the opponent' core well enough to gather enough information to take advantage of the game you're in.

I asked people's thoughts on Blaziken on one occasion and the majority seemed optomostic about remaining vigilant and standing firm on his position in DW. Out of the blue, or on one day for some reason a change of heart occurs and... well we know where that story went.

Hell, I did ask our some council members/leaders what would come of Dream World and the direction with which we wanted it to go. I don't remember getting a clear response though afterall, we are running this together.

[jrrrrrrr]

I don't think there's anything that is broken in the current DW OU tier, and the council and other people have already heard my blunt opinions that I think things should start getting unbanned. Darkrai is one of the few mons I think is worth at least a trial run in the tier and I'll explain why. The only other mons I would even *consider* testing are Blaziken, Deoxys, Deoxys-A, and Skymin.

Firstly, Darkrai has a handful of things going against it in DW that Standard OU does not have.

- Genesect
- Excadrill
- Keldeo
- Technician Breloom
- Manaphy in rain
- Deoxys-S
- Scarf Chandelure Overheat
- the popularity of Chople TTar
- Blaziken COUGHUNBANITCOUGHCOUGHGHGH

...among other things. Darkrai also has serious 4 moveslot syndrome, having to choose between Dark Void+Dark Pulse and then a combo of Nasty Plot/Focus Blast/Substitute. So basically, it has to choose between a boosting move, type coverage, or protection from revenge kills....and it can't have all 3.

Dark is terrible typing both offensively and defensively, with no notable resistances in DW OU other than Chandelure's Shadow Ball. Keep in mind that the only Dark attack that is seen in DW is Tyranitar's Pursuit. Offensively, 6 of the top 10 most used pokemon resist Dark and only one is weak to it. If Darkrai switches in, it's after something just died. Using Darkrai makes you play 6-on-5 for the whole match. It is 100% dependent on Dark Void hitting AND the other pokemon staying asleep for multiple turns.

Darkrai also has great Speed, but it can't do anything to Choice Scarf users. And there are shitloads of viable ones in the tier, most of which have super effective moves against Darkrai (or STAB moves that can OHKO it outright).

And lastly....lol Focus Blast is it's only viable non-Dark attack.


Maybe we should have a mini-tournament on this subforum instead of unleashing it on the ladder? This way we could make intelligent posts with actual matches to back up our opinions. It would also boost forum and IRC activity!

[Taylor]

There aren't many viable Choice Scarf users outside of Chandelure, Genesect, Politoed and perhaps Garchomp. DW has a variety of ways to strike first through exceedingly fast Pokemon like Deo-S and Excadrill; additionally hard-hitting, priority users such as Breloom and Dragonite. This was not enough fire power to hold Blaziken in DW, for its set wasn't so straightforward and predictable.

I am willing to test Darkrai but strongly dissaprove how we banish Blaziken, yet should be aware it takes a little initiative to summon Darkrai when the advangtage is there for the taking.

Tyranitar has to choose between Lum Berry / Chople Berry / Air Balloon and the like, which means you're relying on whether the opponent selects right move or not.

All in all, I just feel if we test Darkrai now it would disrupt the balance within DW that the council feels we now possess. Just remember this Pokemon has dominated the Ubers ladder so regardless of our outlook on DW's standing, do not be too surprised if we see an immediate impact.

Dark/Fighting is perfect coverage, no matter how you look at it.

[MikeDecIsHere]

The main problem that Darkrai has though over other Pokemon is that it has Dark Void. This means it can come in, basically outspeed the entire metagame, and make one Pokemon completely useless for the entire game. It's not that it's too powerful or anything, but its speed and access to one of the best sleep moves in the game (fuck BW mechanics) means that it is guaranteed to put one of your opponent's Pokemon out of commission (unless everything decides to start running Lum Berry). I also feel that preparing for both Dark Void and Shadow Tag Chandelure will make the metagame very unhealthy, and will basically put an end to stall teams.

Edit: Oh, there's also the option of every team running Rain + Manaphy, but that means Darkrai is overcentralized, which sucks.

[jrrrrrrr]

Originally Posted by Fat Taylor

All in all, I just feel if we test Darkrai now it would disrupt the balance within DW that the council feels we now possess. Just remember this Pokemon has dominated the Ubers ladder so regardless of our outlook on DW's standing, do not be too surprised if we see an immediate impact.

Exactly, this is why I suggested a tournament. Something where we could test it in a legitimate environment without disrupting our tier's amazing balance. I'm hoping to get some comments on that idea

Originally Posted by Fat Taylor

Tyranitar has to choose between Lum Berry / Chople Berry / Air Balloon and the like, which means you're relying on whether the opponent selects right move or not.

Good point, I was just pointing out how there are ways of dealing with Darkrai that are already viable in the current metagame. So claims of " Darkrai will overcentralize everything!" may be weaker since the current metagame already has ways of dealing with it.

Originally Posted by Fat Taylor

this Pokemon has dominated the Ubers ladder

performance in Ubers doesn't matter!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is an OU discussion!!!

Originally Posted by Fat Taylor

Dark/Fighting is perfect coverage, no matter how you look at it.

Well, it's perfect on paper 70% of the time at least. If you're relying on Focus Blast to beat the hordes of popular pokemon that resist Dark Pulse, you're going to lose often. At least I will =[

Originally Posted by Fat MikeDecIsHere

Edit: Oh, there's also the option of every team running Rain + Manaphy, but that means Darkrai is overcentralized, which sucks.

Compared to now, where "every team" runs Tyranitar + Excadrill? I'd say that having people more run Rain + Manaphy would be a positive thing for the metagame...especially when you talk about "centralization"

[Taylor]

Everyone can easily understand which Pokemon check Darkrai. They are either Scarfed, Excadrill/Deo-s and Breloom, at least for the most part.

Garchomp's mere presense is enough to scare the life out of anyone playing against it, so he should be included in the same vien as TTar/Exca when we are to assume sand is everywhere.

Why some may feel Darkrai may help shift the momentum in a new direction, this experiment is likely to end with the same controversial arguments for and against regarding how lenient we wish to be with our suspects, and the future of Dream World. This was not the case with Blaziken as people would prefer if Sun were to be completely non-viable from there-on-afterwards.

Darkrai isn't necessarily going to favor anything but provide sand with a universal sweeper, and a newer way to exploit scenarios where you need Darkrai to expose the opponents' team.

I would expect roughly the same "sand cores", just with Darkrai leading the line. All you have to do is time your Dark Void right and follow with Nasty Plot. The player with Darkrai practically forces the opponent to into submission as he is left with two options: get swept or prematurely summon their Darkrai check (which if not Genesect's Scarf U-turn) locks them into a move where the trainer using Darkrai can capitalize on by setting up a sweeper who resists the Choice-locked Pokemon.

Tanga Berry could be used to ensure you sleep a Pokemon, followed by the opponent's switch to Genesect as I am able to use Nasty Plot. Meaning there's a good chance I can faint the incomming Pokemon with that neutral coverage.

If a Pokemon performs extensively well in a tier with a higher demand for effectively constructed offensive/defensive teams, due to the options available, then to stand out in that tier is worth noting for our beloved yet still blossoming Dream World metagame.

I am on board with the tournament proposal, perhaps with those other Pokemon mentioned in this thread.

[ParaChomp]

Originally Posted by Fat jrrrrrrr

Maybe we should have a mini-tournament on this subforum instead of unleashing it on the ladder? This way we could make intelligent posts with actual matches to back up our opinions. It would also boost forum and IRC activity!

Agreeing with the tournament idea however even after that, it will be unpleasant tossing it into DW OU like that. Then again, normal OU is similar when a new Pokemon (DW or event) is released.

Originally Posted by Fat Taylor

I am willing to test Darkrai but strongly dissaprove how we banish Blaziken, yet should be aware it takes a little initiative to summon Darkrai when the advangtage is there for the taking.

Off-topic but if it's about banning the starter all together, than I agree with you (doubt there's anywhere where this proposal can be made).

[Matthew]

I just don't see the reason "why not?" Yes, we just banned Blaziken. Yes Darkrai was banned in the first suspect test. But if the idea of Dream World is to be open, more alluring, and less strict to all (which we have included completely), then I don't see why not. The worst case is Darkrai is too much for Dream World to handle (1-2 weeks tops of it on the ladder) or it is proven to be enough of a suspect to inspire debate (3-infinite weeks tops). If it isn't as bad as we say, and we can, then we have a sweet new pokemon to play with. If it is then we're no worse off then we started.

I don't like the tournament idea. Mostly because tournaments take a bit to set up through the TDs and secondly it's open to the public who just want to play. If they care about DW they'll play on the ladder and give their opinion, not just play in a tournament with Darkrai in their team.

[Matthew]

I can't figure out how to edit my post right now but listen.

In regards to Taylor:
either Darkrai is too strong in sand (who is taking sand + LO damage or sand + sub damage, both of which are retarded completely), or it is another asset for rain, sun, and non-weather teams to use in regards to sand (really? you're going to bring in Excadrill or Garchomp against my Darkrai? Be more cute, please). Darkrai without TrickScarf or Life Orb isn't a Darkrai to be scared about. A worse Special Attack than Volcarona with, arguably, worse typing. Or Alakazam with worse type coverage? Yes it is fast as hell with an 80% sleep move, but let's not forget the move Stone Edge (also called Stone Miss). Stone Edge has been, without a doubt, the most disappointing move in anyone's match through 4th through 5th gen. Maybe that's just because of its distribution, which is much larger than Dark Void, but if you hate Stone Edge's miss factor then you have to hate Dark Void equally. It's no Spore.

[Princess Bri]

Originally Posted by Fat Matthew

I can't figure out how to edit my post right now but listen.

In regards to Taylor:
either Darkrai is too strong in sand (who is taking sand + LO damage or sand + sub damage, both of which are retarded completely), or it is another asset for rain, sun, and non-weather teams to use in regards to sand (really? you're going to bring in Excadrill or Garchomp against my Darkrai? Be more cute, please).

LO + Sand = 7 Turns of Attacking. You only have 6 Pokemon and Darkrai can OHKO almost the whole metagame at +2. Darkrai is going to be running Team Support, which everyone seems to be forgetting, and it's such a threatening sweeper with its mega-speed and good coverage. Most of it's checks and counters are taken out by Chandelure and switching Breloom/Excadrill into Focus Blast isn't fun.

Originally Posted by Fat Matthew

Darkrai without TrickScarf or Life Orb isn't a Darkrai to be scared about. A worse Special Attack than Volcarona with, arguably, worse typing.

It has the same Base Special Attack as Volcarona, 135, and it's 19 points away from MewTwo's and is one of the best in the game.. lol.. Its typing only makes it weak to Mach Punch, how is that bad.

Originally Posted by Fat Matthew

Or Alakazam with worse type coverage? Yes it is fast as hell with an 80% sleep move, but let's not forget the move Stone Edge (also called Stone Miss). Stone Edge has been, without a doubt, the most disappointing move in anyone's match through 4th through 5th gen. Maybe that's just because of its distribution, which is much larger than Dark Void, but if you hate Stone Edge's miss factor then you have to hate Dark Void equally. It's no Spore.

LOL you act like Dark + Fighting isn't almost perfect coverage and that Sleep isn't a big deal. Being able to decapacitate a pokemon for a whole match is godly at a reliable accuracy and Stone Edge can't do that. Stone Edge is also used on what is one of the best sweepers in OU so should we just not use Terrakion because Stone Edge can miss?

...

---

Hi. I really wasn't ever going to post this team, however with the imminent release of Genesect and possible tier fluctuations soon to follow, I feel as though this team really just isn't going to be as good as it was anymore, so I'm retiring it. From the start of BW2, I immediately was hard-pressed to create a successful, original Rain team. For me, the challenge was the fact that I really couldn't make a Rain team without having a bad team matchup versus the mirror match. Opposing Rain teams felt like the bane of my team's existence, and I had to keep remaking and reworking for over a month to get to the finished product I'm displaying. Many people know I am a more defensive-minded player, and Balanced teams were the teams I "grew up on" in the Pokémon world, per se, as I originally started in BW1 using other players' Balanced Teams and learned from them. My sand Volt-Turn that peaked #1 was a large step out of my comfort zone as Hyper Offense isn't what I normally play, however it did teach me offensive aspects that reflect from this team, namely the VoltTurn core I included of Celebi and Jolteon. The team was originally formed with my friend Lavos Spawn, as he hadn't of build a good rain team either, and we decided to build around a formidable sweeper -- Toxicroak. We decided that Thundurus-T would be a great partner due to being immune to Ground, and taking out some of Toxicroak's biggest roadblocks, namely Jellicent and Hippowdon.



We chose Donphan to be our Spinner because it is one of the best spinners for rain teams -- It could lay down Stealth Rock and check all varients of Terrakion which offensive Toxicroak cannot. Bronzong was chosen to counter Dragon's and Tornadus, while NP Celebi could of been another set-up sweeper and was unexpected with Hidden Power Ice. This version was good, but it was weak to several things, namely Bronzong was terrible deadweight and the fact that Lati@s and DD Gyarados wrecked the team.

From there I took the team back to the drawing board, liking the overall design of it and changed Bronzong, who was deadweight, to a Spikes layer who did practically the same job and had reliable recovery -- Skarmory.



Skarmory proved to be a fabulous member of the team, and he was definitely a keeper. However Skarmory could still not handle the Lati@s twins very well, even with a Specially Defensive spread, so I once again was stumped. This version stayed a while until I saw Gamester's rain team -- it had a Specially Defensive Celebi with U-turn. I loved the idea -- it countered Lati@s, and even CM Reuniclus and CM Jirachi who were problematic. I changed it right away, and loved it. Gamester and I had similar teams and we looked at eachother's trying to find weaknesses, and I had a few, namely Volcarona and Dragon Dance Gyarados. He ran a Keldeo for a Volcarona check, and I thought it'd work fantastically over Toxicroak.



This however wasn't the case. Due to Volcarona's access to Giga Drain and Hurricane, Keldeo could barely even check it, and I was still swept. So, I figured I would add an Azumarill to justify the weakness, as it could also check Terrakion and the problematic Thundurus-T with Aqua Jet, and it fit well on the team.



This version was good, but I still lacked a good Gyarados counter and it could still sweep me. I saw someone sweep me with a Specs Jolteon and I was like "that outspeeds Gyarados and Dragonite!" It also checks Thundurus-T well too, and it was a perfect fit.



This team was the best varient so far, but I lacked one thing-- a set-up sweeper. I couldn't find a replacement for a while, so I just kept the team as is, but then I remembered the beast I have used before, the monster that can sweep with ease.. the one.. the only.. the Feraligatr! And with this, the team was complete, and this is what I have to show you.



The team helped me ladder on my alt Birol (I did about ~20 matches with it with a few varients) to ladder to #1 on the server in one day along with my Hippowdon sand semi-stall, and I am really proud of it. It's sad to see it go, but I hope you all enjoy it as much as I have. Feraligatr is a boss. Now here's the team-- When in Doubt, Gatr Out!

Politoed @ Water Gem
Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 176 HP / 252 SAtk / 80 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Focus Blast

Politoed leads off the team, and unlike people who opt to chose shitty Defensive sets, I want all my Pokémon to serve an actual purpose, even if it is bad as Politoed, so I opted for a lure set. I originally saw this set on a Smogon RMT and I love it. The point of the set is to just use a coverage move first, and when the opponent switches into something that resists it, you nail them with another move, usually a Hydro Pump. When people see a Politoed using a coverage move they immediately assume it is Scarf'd, and with Water Gem you get a free Spec's Hydro Pump along with a kill usually, and that is great. This Politoed is fabulous at luring Tyranitar and Gastrodon in, just to hit them with a Focus Blast (maybe) or a Hidden Power Grass respectively. Hydro Pump typically stays hidden until I know I can kill something with it, e.g. Heatran switching into an Ice Beam and then getting demolished. It does an upward of ~60% to Rotom-W on the switch as well. Hidden Power Grass is for Rotom-W and Gastrodon, along with weakened Jellicent trying to heal up. Focus Miss hits Tyranitar and Ferrothorn mainly, scoring 2HKO's or close to. This set is definitely my favorite Politoed set to use. The EV's allow me to outspeed 0 Speed Dragonite, Bulk Up Breloom, and Specially Defensive Heatran, have maximum firepower, and the rest was thrown in HP.

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 220 SDef / 36 Spd
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Whirlwind
- Spikes
- Brave Bird
- Roost

Skarmory is my counter for a myriad of threats, namely almost every Dragon in the OU Metagame. Seriously, every Dragon. The only Dragon he cannot handle is a Specs Dragon spamming Surf, which Celebi counters. Specially Defensive Skarmory is a very underrated set, but it is, in my opinion, the best set for the current metagame. This steel bird walks all over Tornadus-T, and is one of the few counters to it. Skarmory's most valuable asset, however, is its ability to lay Spikes. With Spikes I can weaken my opponent's team where Feraligatr and Jolteon can just sweep with ease. Spikes is my primary tool versus Ferrothorn, who looks problematic. I set up Spikes alongside it and then weaken it with Whirlwind so that Jolteon or Feraligatr can kill it. After Hazards Jolteon's Thunder is a possible 2HKO, showing its strength. Brave Bird is the obligatory STAB move, allowing me to hit troublesome fighters and Grass-Types, mainly the up-and-coming Techniloom and Amoonguss for supereffective damage. Whirlwind allows me to phaze things like DD Nite and Salamence and rack up entry hazard damage, while Roost keeps Skarmory alive. The speed EV's are just for speed creep purposes against other Skarmory, and I outspeed Wobbuffett. Between Skarmory and Celebi I cover almost all Special threats, and Skarmory and Donphan cover almost all Physical threats.

Celebi @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 240 SDef / 16 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- U-turn
- Giga Drain
- Perish Song
- Recover

If you ever need a water resist and a Rotom-W counter, Celebi is your go-to girl. Celebi isn't seen as much now due to Amoonguss's presence, however Celebi counters several threats Amoonguss can only dream of. CM and Trick Room Reuniclus? Please try harder Amoonguss. CM Jirachi? Please try harder Amoonguss. Late game sweepers? Alakaam? Please try harder Amoonguss. The list goes on. Celebi is my obligatory Rotom-W counter, a necessity for all Rain teams, and it forms a cute VoltTurn core with Jolteon. Between Skarmory and Celebi, almost all Special threats are covered in Rain. Celebi is my Lati@s counter, momentum grabber, and overall Glue. Without Celebi I'd be eaten alive by most other rain, namely Keldeo and Thundurus. Versus them I U-Turn out into Jolteon and go lolumad. The EV's allow me to outspeed Adamant Breloom and the rest is thrown in HP.

Donphan @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 80 Atk / 176 Def / 4 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Head Smash
- Rapid Spin

Donphan is one of Rain's best Spinners. With his excellent Physical bulk, he checks a ton of threats-- Gravity Landorus, Terrakion, Tyranitar, and most Sand sweepers. Stealth Rock is a necessity on any team to check Volcarona and Dragonite better, and the residual damage helps me win the weather war. Earthquake is the obligatory STAB, and it hits like a truck coming off the base 120 attack the elephant has, and with the given EV investment it 2HKO Haxorus. Head Smash is a rather unorthodox move, however it OHKO's Gengar after Stealth Rock and hits the Genies on the switch, and also Volcarona -- allowing me to take out important threats. It still hits Flier's like Ice Shard but without Priority but with much more power. Rapid Spin in Rapid Spin.. nothing special here. He allows me to keep up with HO teams and stall teams, and checks a plethora of threats. Along with Skarmory he checks most physcal threats. With his Rock resistance he actually gains HP switching in, so the lack of a recovery move isn't that bad. Overall, Donphan needs more love.

Jolteon @ Choice Specs
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Signal Beam
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunder

Forretress is boss-status. Srs. Forretress in Sun still confused some beginning players since they're like, "Wtf his 4x Fire weakness is exaggarated, that isn't good! Forretress in Sun is bad, etc." however Forretress is going to be OHKO'd by almost any Fire-Type move anyways, and Dragons in BW are so prevalent and Forretress checks them rather nicely, thus he's a great addition to the team. First of all, we have Volt Switch. This move is effective because Forretress rounds of my "Volt-Turn" core, it escapes from being trapped by Magnezone, it lures in Heatran, and it lures in Politoed so I can be like "WACHAAAAAAAAA switch!". Next we have Stealth Rock which is the best move in the game. It cripples Tornadus, Volcarona, and other threats so my team can handle them much better. The third move is the reason why I use Forretress: Rapid Spin. It Spins away hazards that are detrimental to the well-being of Victini and Ninetales especially. It also keeps Dugtrio's Sash intact if it hasn't yet been used. Finally we have Gyro Ball. With the Defensive EV's given, it soundly checks common Sand Sweepers such as Landorus and Terrakion, and keep Forretress from being set-up/Taunt bait. The Attack EV's given allow Forretress to OHKO 0 / 0 EV'd Abomasnows, and the other EV's are taken directly from the Smogon Site analysis.

Feraligatr @ Mystic Water
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet
- Superpower

After my VoltTurn core takes out all the troublesome Pokemon to my team and Victini wrecks my opponents team, I have Sawsbuck to clean up. With Stealth Rock support, proper team support, and a free turn to use Swords Dance, you may as well say GG. With Sawsbuck's blazing speed, pro-looks, and good coverage it's the epipheny of Sun Sweepers. The set in itself is rather standard, and I opted to use Nature Power instead of Jump Kick because Chandelure would be problematic otherwise. I tried out Double Edge > Frustration and the recoil was too much for Horn Leech to recover back, and the power difference didn't make much difference.

Politoed (F) @ Water Gem
Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 176 HP / 252 SAtk / 80 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Focus Blast

Skarmory (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 220 SDef / 36 Spd
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Whirlwind
- Spikes
- Brave Bird
- Roost

Celebi @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 240 SDef / 16 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- U-turn
- Giga Drain
- Perish Song
- Recover

Donphan (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 80 Atk / 176 Def / 4 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Head Smash
- Rapid Spin

Jolteon (F) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Signal Beam
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunder

Feraligatr (F) @ Mystic Water
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet
- Superpower

That is all. I thoroughly enjoyed using this team before I got bored, and I hope you try it out to if you wish. It's a fun Sun Team, and it uses some unique sets and Pokemon which is what I like about it. Have a nice day.

[Matthew]

Perfect coverage isn't everything, and everyone seems to think it is. Dark + Fighting is "perfect" THAT IS SUPER COOL!!!! No, super effective is what wins games, or rather if you're so fucking pumped up (see +4 Volcarona or the fuck whatever) then you're sweeping without issue. Dragon + Ground + Fire is the best coverage I can think of right now, and that only works because of those three attack type coverage + stab. Dark + Fighting with Sleep / NP / HP Ice / Sub isn't that threatening. Four moveslot syndrome is such a common thing for Darkrai that I'm astounded you don't think it's worth a shot. Also I was wrong about Volcarona, I was looking at Darm-Z for some reason.

[Taylor]

Darkrai 2HKOs Uber stall teams, and that is without Chandelure picking off anything who can go toe-to-toe with said suspect. He can be checked but that goes for just about every Pokemon in the game bar Arceus.

I'd take a pure Dark type over something taking 50% damage for merely switching in.

A worse Special Attack than Volcarona with, arguably, worse typing.

Perfect coverage is what it is, perfect; "I can hit everything without being resisted, so the opponent plays out of the ordinary to remove him". This is where you start to gather momentum as you've already opened a gap in your opponent's team.

Basically you have Dark/Fighting coverage with the offensive stats and speed to make most of the tier unusable because why would you pass up on the advantage that is there for the taking.

Dark with STAB is resisted by Dark, Steel and Fighting; two of which are hit for super effective damage by Focus Blast.

How can Alakazam have better coverage when Darkrai can already hit everything for neutral damage? If anything, the sleep inducing move and speed outweigh the benefits of Magic Guard as far as competitive battles on our ladder are concerned.