CAP 3 - Part 11 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

[capefeather]

If you want to know what's going on, read the OP of this thread, which details how this thread will work (including the posting rules), except we discuss non-attacking moves here. You should also read the post after it, which contains the list of competitive attacking moves that are required/allowed/disallowed. This post sums up some of the reasoning behind the attacking move inclusions and exclusions, and more importantly emphasizes that Thunder and Hurricane are both allowed attacking moves, but not on the same "set" (i.e. you can have only one OR you can have both but make them illegal together).

READ THE POSTING RULES. YOU HAVE NO EXCUSE FOR NOT ABIDING BY THEM.

Mollux so far:

Concept: Extreme Makeover: Typing Edition

---

Originally Posted by Fat Theorymon

Name: Extreme Makeover: Typing Edition

General Description: The idea here is to create a Pokemon who's typing, while normally considered poor defensively and/or offensively, becomes a strong selling point of the Pokemon itself via help from an ability, stats, and/or movepool.

Justification: There are a lot of typings we scoff at on a daily basis because of their serious flaws, often forgetting about their strong points. For example, Poison is a really terrible offensive typing, but a decent defensive typing, while the Ice typing is good offensively, but awful defensively. Instead of just accepting that some typings will just ruin a Pokemon, this CAP concept aims to take that "terrible typing", and find ways to fix it (usually via ability, movepool, or stats) to the point where the formerly terrible typing becomes the CAP's strong point! The reason this CAP could benefit OU is because a Pokemon who makes a "bad typing" into a great one could find many unique offensive and/or defensive niches that aren't currently found!

Questions To Be Answered

-What does it take for a Pokemon to overcome its "bad typing" so much that its typing becomes good? Are the stats the biggest contributer, is the ability the thing that saves it, does movepool make it a force, or is it a combination of the above?

-How does the typing makeover effect the Pokemon's playstyle? Does the Pokemon become a unique wall that uses its makeover to overcome its typing's normally fatal flaws, does the make over make a terrible offensive typing into a fearsome sweeper, does the makeover make it into a formidible combination of deffense and offense to a typing that brings it neither, or does the makeover bring forth something none of us see coming from the typing?

-Which resistances and immunities are the most relevant to the metagame? Sure, this concept is aiming to have a "bad typing" become good, but part of that will require the bad typing to have some key resistances and/or immunties to certain typings to defend against or set up on, while still having a very unorthodox competitive typing. This works the other way around too, what are the typings most relevant to hit super effectively or at least neutral?

-How will the rest of the OU metagame react to this extreme type makeover? Will Pokemon start carrying moves they normally wouldn't carry to break through a new defensive threat, will some Pokemon take on new defensive roles due to resisting the unorthodox STABs CAP 3 may carry? Or will This Pokemon, despite being a very real threat, not have many "custom made sets" to beat it, being more of a Pokemon that is a reaction to the metagame than causing a metagame reaction?

-Finally, how will this effect the teams CAP3 is on? Will this be the kind of Pokemon who needs a lot of support to become a threat, will this Pokemon be more of key team member to execute another strategy, or will this be the kind of Pokemon that's part of the glue that holds the team together?

Typing: Fire / Poison
Base stats: 95 HP / 45 Atk / 83 Def / 131 SpA / 105 SpD / 76 Spe
Abilities: Dry Skin / Illuminate

[Deck Knight]

And now comes the hard part. For the most part, I don't think Mollux needs that many tricks. It's primary objective should be to shut down Rain and at least act competently in all other weathers, which will usually require 2 or 3 slots dedicated to attacking moves. Still, support options should not be overlooked.

Here's my general thought process:

Required moves are basically Sun / Rain weather starters, Toxic, and WoW.

Allowed moves consist of flavorful but useful moves like Coil, Flame Charge, Clear Smog, Gastro Acid, and most crucially I think, Sun-based healing. Given Mollux wants to operate in neutral weather or Rain, it seems quite appropriate to consider them as the sole direct recovery move.

Pending Moves has a ton of initial offerings: Including Screens, Toxic Spikes/Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, Magnet Rise, Soak, Magic Coat, Snatch, Recycle if it wants to get back its Air Balloon, and given our allowance of Electric attacks and Mollux's special bulk, Charge.

Disallowed currently has +2 Speed and SpA boosters, Taunt, Sleep Moves, Paralysis Moves, and Baton Pass along with Spikes, Leech Seed, Quiver Dance, and U-turn. I'd prefer for SpA damage boosting we use Acid Spray to employ STAB rather than NP or TG.

It's a bit esoteric but I think it's a good idea to get Mollux's functions down correctly. Post away!

Required:
Rain Dance
Sunny Day
Toxic
Will-O-Wisp

Allowed:
Accupressure
Acid Armor / Iron Defense
Amnesia
Aqua Ring
Calm Mind
Charge
Clear Smog
Coil
Disable
Encore
Endure
Fake Tears / Metal Sound
Fire Spin / Whirlpool
Flame Charge
Foresight
Gastro Acid
Growth
Haze
Heal Bell
Ingrain
Knock Off
Light Screen
Magic Coat
Magnet Rise
Morning Sun / Moonlight
Pain Split
Protect
Rapid Spin
Recover
Recycle
Roar
Role Play
Skill Swap
Sleep Talk
Snatch
Soak
Stealth Rock
Stockpile
Substitute
Switcheroo / Trick
Toxic Spikes
Thunder Wave
Whirlwind
Wish
Work Up
Pending:

Disallowed:
Agility / Autotomize / Rock Polish
Baton Pass
Belly Drum
Cotton Guard
Glare / Stun Spore
Leech Seed
Nasty Plot
Quiver Dance
Reflect
Shell Smash
Spikes
Taunt
Tail Glow
U-turn
Yawn
Sleep Moves

Controversial:

[The Reptile]

Soak is a very interesting option for Mollux. On one hand, Water-type is a pretty good type to be, having only 2 weaknesses. On the other hand, we have Thunder(bolt). He can also use his Poison STAB against Water-type foes since they won't resist it. Also, because they are now Water-type, they have no STAB to hit you with, since we are immune to Water-type attacks. I would say allow Soak. We could end up with some interesting sets using Soak.

Magnet Rise is also interesting. Using Magnet Rise allows us to bipass our Ground weakness, making us weak to only Psychic and Rock for a limited amount of time. It could show us how useful it's typing is without the 4x Ground weakness. It might be a bit to much though, since we can't be revenged killed by ground-type attacks. However, almost everything that packs ground also has rock, so I'm not sure if this is too overpowering. I'm really unsure about Magnet Rise, but I'm leaning towards allowing Magnet Rise atm.

EDIT: I think Toxic Spikes are great for team support on Mollux, it might give it a niche in sun, being on of the few Toxic Spikers for sun (I don't know any other pokemon that can run TSpikes and is used in sun)

[Banryu]

Hmm. Just from that list, I'd say allow Light Screen, Snatch, Recycle, and Charge, purely in terms of relative uselessness compared to the other options that Mollux gets.

Snatch and Recycle are only moderately useful at best, with the latter requiring nigh-godly prediction most of the time, and the former requiring a turn for a relatively mundane and harmless purpose.

Charge seems similarly harmless, especially considering that Acid Spray largely outclasses it (albeit not against Steel-types, and there it's basically a gimmick if it isn't already). Light Screen improves Mollux's better defense, which seems useful, but not so much so that it would be widely used... or used at all, even.

Reflect could also be allowed, since it's sort of redundant with Coil and Acid Armor, barring team support uses. In that regard, I feel like maybe Reflect and Light Screen should not be available at the same time, since Dual Screening isn't really the role that Mollux should be playing (granted, most probably won't use it for that anyway, so it might not matter... Hydreigon gets both, and how many Dual Screen Hydreigon do you see?). Reflect could probably be allowed also, but maybe not alongside Light Screen.

Magic Coat I think I'd like to see, and it's sort of like a better Snatch in certain situations... I don't think it would be too overcentralizing, and it might actually be a good non-attacking slot to have on Mollux, and a legit reason to use it over other options. Though, like most of the other moves in Pending, it probably won't be used as much as something like Toxic or WoW, so... Allowed?

Stealth Rock and TSpikes are a little controversial to me. One the one hand, I don't feel like hazard-setting is something that Mollux needs to be doing, but on the other, it's mainly used for attacking, so why not...? Rapid Spin is in the same vein to me; I don't feel like Mollux should be using it, but it might also actually give a reason to use it...? SR-weak spinners tend to be less favorable anyway, since they take damage from it, and Mollux won't want to run Spin and a recovery move, most likely... Undecided until I hear some other arguments on the matter.

At this point, I only think that Magnet Rise should be disallowed. Mollux's Ground weakness is what makes most of its checks work well against it, like EP Heatran, Gliscor, Duggy and such.

[FlareBlitz]

I would like to propose allowing Calm Mind.

Mollux is slow and has very common, very dangerous weaknesses that are primarily physical. Its STABs don't get good enough coverage by themselves, meaning that running Calm Mind will cause 4MSS in a big way. At the same time, it makes setting up on Mollux very dangerous, and it also means that Mollux has something over Heatran outside rain / in sun. Calm Mind also doesn't replace Acid Spray because it's only a one-stage buff compared to a two-stage debuff.

I'd like to argue for Trick being allowed as well. Mollux can use choice sets decently well, but its STAB coverage and moveslots don't really warrant a ban on Trick in my opinion. If Mollux runs Trick, it will probably do so with Fire / Poison / Electric coverage, which isn't game-changing by any means. Trick allows us to cripple the fat blobs and to steal items after / if Air Balloon pops, which seems like a decent enough benefit for one moveslot cost.

[nyttyn]

I've already made my thoughts about Clear Smog known earlier, but I would like to restate that I think that clear smog is a great way for mollux to use its secondary STAB as a offensive phazer.


also

no dual screens.

for the love of god please no this thing has no business using either reflect or light screen.

[Hiphopanonymous]

I agree, Mollux would be potentially broken if it was given Shell Smash. I like the sound of Soak, and giving it Rapid Spin would be pretty useful, despite being SR weak. Snatch isn't really too great of a move, but it would help against Blissey/CM users. Same with Magic Coat against entry hazard users and such. I'm all for Morning Sun/Moonlight, would really assist Mollux against/on Sun teams. Toxic Spikes would support its team greatly, as would SR. And being able to dual screen would be pretty nice, as well. I absolutely agree with the entirety of the disallowed list, with the exception or Belly Drum. 45 base attack isn't anywhere near threatening, plus Mollux wouldn't live long enough to use that +6. Besides, it would make quite the amusing little gimmick set, imo.

[capefeather]

I am interested in the screens and Thunder Wave. Namely, I think that all of them should be allowed. Defensive boosts have always been far less effective than they look on paper, and if you're using one or both screens, you need to sacrifice coverage, which would only be warranted on a defensive set. I don't think that this mon would even make a good screener. Thunder Wave is in a similar boat. Yes, paralysis is strong, and yes, Mollux has been placed in a very specific speed tier. Again, though, you're going to run into moveslot problems if you're using Thunder Wave solely to lure in and kill a check. Plus, Ground-types are immune to them.

The +2 Spe and +2 SpA moves I'm less sure about, but I'm not sure they should be disallowed immediately. Mainly, I'm not sure they'd even be viable. +2 SpA would mainly run into problems with faster Pokémon (and there are many of them). I'm not sure if it would even be worth using over, say, Choice Specs. +2 Spe would probably be more viable than Thunder Wave, at least, but these moves have a long history of not being that good. I'd like to make the comparison to Dragonite, who has a better STAB and slightly higher Attack. Agility is usually considered too "weak" a setup move to be worth using. Now, it could be argued that Dragonite finds it relatively easy to set up two Dragon Dances, and that Dragon Dance is the overall more useful move for it, but the point stands. Base 130s are strong, but not so much when they have to spend a turn to use their power effectively.

[SunnyE]

Amnesia should be allowed, as having both (sp.)defense boosting moves would allow people to use Mollux as which ever kind of wall they want, special and or phisical. Also, having both will make both more viable, as your opponent will have to guess which side you're using so he won't bring in the wrong pokemon (Such as bringing a physical mon on an Acid Armor, or a special mon on a Amnesia.)

Recycle should be allowed, but not Magnet Rise. The reason for this is, I believe magnet rise will make getting rid of our ground weakness a bit too easy, which I think is bad. If we wanted to give mollux immunity to ground, we would have given him Levitate. But with Recycle+Air Balloon, you have a bit more difficulty maintaining this immunity, as you have to use it every time your balloon has popped and you sense a ground move is on the way.

Toxic Spikes should be allowed, but not Stealth Rock. Stealth Rock, in addition to not making much flavor sense, doesn't bring any usefulness to Mollux besides team support, which Mollux already does by helping getting rid of Rain on Sun teams, and getting rid of grass-mons (and to a lesser extent, sun) when on Rain teams. Toxic Spikes, on the other hand, while also providing team support, also helps Mollux run Venoshock as his main stab move, helping it get to it's full 195 effective base power, being Mollux's strongest attack in Rain and Clear Skys that doesn't get a horrible drawback like Overheat's s.atk drop.

[Scoopapa]

I agree with allowing Trick. As Flareblitz mentioned, Mollux starts to lose coverage pretty quickly when it drops from four to three moves. The tradeoff between accurate Thunder or Hurricane and strong Fire STAB due to rain only makes it worse. As such, Mollux really needs to make a tough decision when trying to fit Trick into a choice set. It does, however, give choice sets a chance to stand out from Heatran in weathers other than rain.

I also love the idea of Soak, especially in combination with Thunder. Mollux already has some great tools for a stalling set with it's good bulk, immunity to Burn and Poison, and extra recovery in rain thanks to Dry Skin. Soak/Thunder would be a really interesting way of forcing switches because just about everything would be seriously threatened by even an uninvested Super Effective Thunder. It's similar in theory to using Acid Spray, but it also robs the enemy of STAB, nothing is immune to Scald, and nothing will resist your moveset after Soak. It may end up just being gimmicky, but it has potential. At the very least there's not really a chance of Soak being overpowering, so we may as well allow it.

[Rising_Dusk]

Sunny Day and Rain Dance should not be required. There is no competitive reasoning for that, as if CAP 3 is going to be used in those weathers intentionally by a player, it will be used alongside Ninetales and Politoed, respectively. Requiring these moves is essentially a flavor case, and thus irrelevant.

Making the case for a few moves here, but it hinges on one point: CAP 3 does not have to be a sweeper; it can be a supportive Pokemon that uses its talents to serve as a solid pivot and powerful switch forcing Pokemon.

Thus:

Allow Recover. Recover is a very powerful move, but it contributes to CAP 3's bulk in a very meaningful way. Since all of the most powerful boosting moves have been immediately disallowed, and for good reason, CAP 3 won't be sweeping outright and will need a lot of staying power in order to be able to constantly come in and keep doing its thing without being worn down too incessantly by Spikes / SR / tanking hits. CAP 3's entire function on a team as a rain check requires it have the durability and capacity to survive for an entire match and force its opponents into a checkmate position. I can't think of a more important NAM than this for CAP 3 to get.

Allow Rapid Spin and Stealth Rock. Rapid Spin and Stealth Rock go hand-in-hand in order to give CAP 3 something to do and threaten its opponents. It won't always be attacking, and quite frankly, it shouldn't be. One's opponent can switch in something to eat an attack and essentially get a free turn, but when you Rapid Spin or Stealth Rock, short of them bringing in Espeon on SR or a Ghost on Rapid Spin you succeed at furthering your team's goals immediately and irrevocably. This sort of team support is exactly what CAP 3 needs in order to really make itself stand out compared to other possible choices for that teamslot.

It's also worth noting that Rapid Spin is really super cool on CAP 3 because it is supposed to check and handle Jellicent effectively, which means one of (if not the) most popular spinblockers in OU is actually dealt with and kept from spinblocking very well. That dynamic will go a long way in making CAP 3 really capitalize on its defeating of Jellicent.

The reason I support Stealth Rock and not the other hazards is because I think CAP 3 will be very good at securing lots of free turns. I firmly believe that CAP 3 with Spikes will get too many opportunities to set them up in the current OU meta, and thus will probably be too broken defensively. Thus, Spikes should be disallowed. Toxic Spikes isn't as big of a deal because a CAP 3 metagame will arguably nullify the value of Toxic Spikes because CAP 3 itself absorbs. Hence, Toxic Spikes should be allowed.

[kjt]

To the chase I will cut: Growth. Normally it boosts Attack and Special attack one stage. Yeah, so it's basically Work Up. But in sun it's a two stage boost - Swords Dance and Nasty Plot in the same move. This wouldn't work well with rain-oriented Mollux - so we're not likely to see Thunder or Hurricane to go along with it; instead it would give Mollux the ability to work better on a sun team, making use of it's fire moves, Solarbeam, and the ability to run a mixed set (Flare Blitz and Power Whip?).

On some of the pending moves:

I'm on the fence about Reflect and Light Screen. On one hand they're nifty moves. On the other hand they could potentially allow Mollux to survive a SE hit from a potential counter. I guess I'd say disallow Reflect and Light Screen. Mollux has Will-O-Wisp as an alternative to reflect (the burning-halfs-the-opponent's-attack) and Mollux's Special Defense shouldn't be doubled I think . . . Along the lines of this, disallow Magnet Rise. Landorus, Terrakion, Gliscor, Heatran, Dugtrio, they're all looking to take out Mollux with EQ/EP. Terrakion and Landorus, admittedly, could use Stone Edge but the accuracy isn't that great, and they risk being burnt. If Mollux needs the pseudo-levitate, it can always use a Balloon.

Disallow Rapid Spin. Mollux can already get rid of one entry hazard due to its typing. And it's not the ideal Pokemon to be spinning away Stealth Rock due to losing a quarter of its health in the process. As for spinning away Spikes . . . well I don't really know. It depends on what kind of team mates Mollux would be paired up with. As for entry hazards of its own, allow Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock. Toxic Spikes would make a good move for those who don't wanna make use of Mollux's ability to burn, and Stealth Rock doesn't screw with Mollux's potential counters (aside from Dragonite) much.

EDIT:

Allow Trick/Switcheroo because it's fun to use. Sure, there's the tricking of Choice Specs/Scarf. But what about Toxic/Flame Orb? Mollux's typing allows it to hold either of these items without them activating. It could potentially allow it to trick these items onto a Pokemon that was switching in expecting a special attack (Blissey/Chansey come to mind).

And I guess I could add more. Just in case someone later on tries to suggest it, uh, disallow Sketch because that's so last CAP. And as fun as it might be, disallow Transform. It's another move that I don't think should be here . . .

Something that jumps to mind also is Aqua Ring. Assuming Drizzle, Mollux would recover 1/8th HP every turn (thanks Dry Skin!). With leftovers it's . . . I don't know the fraction, but it's 18.75% every turn. With Aqua Ring, Mollux is able to recover 1/4th of its health every turn. Alternatively, you could disallow Aqua Ring, because you might think that the ability to restore 1/4 of your HP every turn is too much. Actually, if you can manage the above conditions, a combination of Sub + Aqua Ring allows for unlimited subs, right (well you know ignoring Substitutes's PP). Combine that with, say, Toxic then you can have some fun stalling slower opponents . . .

[ZhengTann]

Voicing my support on allowing Toxic Spikes and Amnesia. SunnyE had spoken my mind on the move - Toxic Spikes provides team support while at the same time powering up a potential Venoshock. Meanwhile Mollux has the stat spread to potentially be a setup tank (something we don't quite hear about everyday, forgive me if there is already another, more accurate term) with Amnesia and Acid Armor.

On a similar note, if Amnesia and Acid Armor both get on the allowed list, Then I'd propose to disallow Light Screen and Reflect. The former 2 moves does not help Mollux if its threats switch in during the defensive setup - Mollux will be forced to switch regardless of the boost with 4x Earth Power or 2x Stone Edge staring it in the face. Dual screens however, are a different matter - with Mollux's capability at forcing switches, the team support rendered would likely be even more long-lasting compared to Virizion. I'm not sure if that counts as too much of a good thing, but I'm going to prefer erring on the safe (cowardly) side.

On a slightly relevant note, may I ask why Substitute/Protect/etc. are not visible on the list? Just for clarification...

[jackm]

I might have missed some sort of ban, but I think that Recover (and other similar moves), though not designated to a tier of availability, should be considered. 95/83/105 defenses, though not amazing, are certainly bulky and with the extra healing from Dry Skin and potential Leftovers, Mollux could become quite the tough nut to crack. Perhaps too tough. This is why I am going to say that Recover (and other similar moves) should be disallowed. This is not speaking for Moonlight and co.; I think they give Mollux a funky ultimatum about choosing what weather to run with it.

Calm Mind should NOT be allowed. If Mollux got Calm Mind, it would be able to abuse it alongside Will-O-Wisp to tank opposing hits and become an juggernaut. This is subject to change of my opinion, though, because I'm still trying to decide whether Mollux would have the stats to make the whole juggernaut idea work.

Originally posted by Fat FlareBlitz

I'd like to argue for Trick being allowed as well. Mollux can use choice sets decently well, but its STAB coverage and moveslots don't really warrant a ban on Trick in my opinion. If Mollux runs Trick, it will probably do so with Fire / Poison / Electric coverage, which isn't game-changing by any means. Trick allows us to cripple the fat blobs and to steal items after / if Air Balloon pops, which seems like a decent enough benefit for one moveslot cost.

I agree with this.

[Red Riddler]

Originally Posted by Fat Rising_Dusk

CAP 3...can be a supportive Pokemon that uses its talents to serve as a solid pivot and powerful switch forcing Pokemon.

Stockpile. Molluxe has nice resistances and decent defenses. Stockpile lets it capitalize on that. However, Rising_Dusk also mentioned that Defense-boosting moves could allow Molluxe to survive a hit from a designated counter. Stockpile doesn't raise either stat as high as the Screens or Acid Armor, but repeated uses achieve the same effect. If the opponent plays smart, Molluxe becoming too bulky shouldn't become a problem. But that's an admittedly inexperienced opinion.

Because he's a lava lamp, Cosmic Power isn't out of the question. It does the same thing as Stockpile, minus the Swallow/Spit Up benefit (Spit Up isn't worth the moveslot and Moonlight/Morning Sun/Recover outclass Swallow).

[Birkal*]

Here's the current "Pending" list; I'm posting this here so when Deck updates this list, people know what I'm talking about and don't think I'm crazy.

Charge
Light Screen
Magic Coat
Magnet Rise
Rapid Spin
Recycle
Reflect
Snatch
Soak
Stealth Rock
Toxic Spikes

I suggest that we allow literally everything on this list. Right now, CAP3 is very low OU, if not even lower. If we're going to make a push for this mon to be desirable on a team, I'd recommend we pick up our pace and start splurging. We chose a poor ability. We chose a "safe" stat spread. We chose non-Drought and NCA after Dry Skin.

A lot of these moves are ridiculously niche and should definitely be allowed. I don't know if we have any sets on site that use Soak or Snatch, for example. Both hazards are an awesome way to give CAP3 some sort of a support roll; I'd even go as far as to allow Spikes. Please note that adding only Toxic Spikes makes is super outclassed by stuff like Tentacruel. Screens are fine, Recycle is niche, Rapid Spin is awesome and exactly the kind of move we should be looking to add.

Originally Posted by Fat SunnyE

Recycle should be allowed, but not Magnet Rise. The reason for this is, I believe magnet rise will make getting rid of our ground weakness a bit too easy, which I think is bad. If we wanted to give mollux immunity to ground, we would have giving him Levitate. But with Recycle+Air Balloon, you have a bit more difficulty maintaining this immunity, as you have to use it every time your balloon has popped and you sense a ground move is on the way.

What do we even do with this? Levitate =/= Magnet Rise under any circumstance. Levitate lets you avoid hazard damage on the switch in and isn't on a timer like Magnet Rise is (and it's permanent when you switch out). Magnet Rise is really niche; allow it, in my opinion.


Yeah, pretty much everything on the current Pending List is second bananas, in my opinion. We really should be delving into stuff like Trick, Taunt, Nasty Plot, Baton Pass, Agility, and the like. Heck, most of the stuff I just listed isn't a huge deal on CAP3; it's pretty slow for the former three, and could use the help from the latter two. Furthermore, Recover should be seriously considered for this CAP if we're going to encourage any sort of longevity on the supportive sets.

In short, I'm not incredibly thrilled with our current Pending list. I'd move all of them to Allowed (maybe Rapid Spin and Stealth Rock need some discussion, but those are pretty safe too). Let's move on to bigger fish that are currently in the disallowed column.

[The Reptile]

I'm not too sure about Recover. Moonlight give enough recovery to Mollux as it is in the rain, as Dry Skin + Moonlight + Leftovers equal to around 44%, not to mention the constant healing from Dry Skin in the rain. Meanwhile, Dry Skin in the sun + Moonlight in the sun + Leftovers equal to around 69%, not to mention the constant lost of HP because of Dry Skin. Moonlight gives around equal healing to both Sun Mollux (who has a slight edge over Rain Mollux in terms of recovery) and Rain Mollux, but with Recover Rain Mollux gets 69% (not counting the constant recovery from rain Dry Skin), and in the sun Mollux gets 44% (not that Sun Mollux would run Recover). This reason would make me want to disallow Recover, but then weatherless Mollux gets screwed with recovery that is sort of unreliable, especially versus Sand. Again, I'm not completely positive, but I'm leaning towards allowing Recover if only to help Weatherless Mollux. If someone could expand on this, that would be great.

Calm Mind + Lava Plume sounds really cool actually, and not overpowering due to it only having 2 move coverage (which might end up being it's dual STAB, and we need a recovery move) and it being slow-ish. It also allows it to actually do something to stall, which atm can't really touch Mollux bar Seismic Toss or random ground move. I say allow Calm Mind.

EDIT: Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin would be cool, as with SR, Rapid Spin, and Toxic Spikes, it's kind of like a mix between Heatran and Tentacool that works in either Sun or Rain. Definitely allow Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin.

[SunnyE]

Of course Levitate is different from Magnet Rise, but I meant, Immunity to our main weakness shouldn't be as easy as "enter, use magnet rise while your opponent switches". With Recycle+Air Balloon, it's a bit more dynamic and even useful, as this also brings spikes immunity (in exchange for not absorbing T-spikes). Magnet rise lets you be immune to ground moves with fair ease, keep absorbing toxic spikes, and not have to worry about having to loose another turn because your opponent predicted your recycle and popped your balloon. Not to mention, Magnet Rise opens up your item slot for something more "useful" than Air Balloon.

[The Reptile]

Originally Posted by Fat SunnyE

Of course Levitate is different from Magnet Rise, but I meant, Immunity to our main weakness shouldn't be as easy as "enter, use magnet rise while your opponent switches". With Recycle+Air Balloon, it's a bit more dynamic and even useful, as this also brings spikes immunity (in exchange for not absorbing T-spikes). Magnet rise lets you be immune to ground moves with fair ease, keep absorbing toxic spikes, and not have to worry about having to loose another turn because your opponent predicted your recycle and popped your balloon. Not to mention, Magnet Rise opens up your item slot for something more "useful" than Air Balloon.

But then you only have 3 other moves slots, one probably needs to be a recovery move in a set that uses Magnet Rise, so you really only have 2. You need at least one attacking move, so that leaves you with only one move for your free will. Also, almost everything that packs Earthquake also has SE Stone Edge.

[akela]

I am trying to be careful where I interject myself in the CAP discussion, so I apologize if I am out of line in any way.

I support allowing stockpile, mostly from a flavor perspective, but also for giving Mollux a shot at being used outside of a niche team. It needs a chance, even if it is a teensy chance, of surviving the ground attack. With Earthquake being so common, the ideal choice would be a +2 DEF boost. But with that dramatic of a boost seemingly opposed, a +1 to DEF and SPD is a decent alternative. If stockpile is allowed, I propose allowing swallow as well.

With options like Morning Sun, Moonlight, Synthesis, and Swallow at Mollux's disposal, I vote for disallowing other Recover moves. Those four are variant healing, requiring you to think about when you are going to heal for maximum pay off. The other recover moves do not require as much strategy and would be abused far too much.

With its typing, Mollux is immune to burns and poison/toxic poison. Its appearance brings to mind allowing Aromatherapy/Heal Bell. While I would prefer to see a Poison/Toxic Poison/Burn heal only move, I know that is unlikely. I cannot see Mollux as an offensive threat or a sweeper, but it could be used to both block and cure statuses.

[jas61292]

I'm pretty much in agreement with Birkal here that we should allow everything on the pending list. Stealth Rocks and Rapid Spin help give it a defensive niche in addition to having nice offensive prowess, and I don't really think anything else on the list is really powerful enough to be worth mentioning. Most would not even be used over its other available options.

I also want to post agreement that Recover should be allowed. Mollux is to slow to really be an outright sweeper, so having a move to make it legit as a bulky support Pokemon. Without any boosting move it will not be able to use this to just set up a sweep, but it will allow it to better take care of those water type Pokemon we set it up to beat. If we really want it to serve its role, it needs to have enough staying power to switch in to coverage moves more than just once or twice. Recover makes sure this can happen.

[breh]

I support Cosmic Power; I don't really think you can ever actually overpower something by giving it moves to boost its defense (hell, look at registeel, which has curse and amnesia yet is never used with a set involving both at the same time (or amnesia for that matter lol); I realize that the two are not the same - Mollux does use up one less moveslot using Cosmic Power, but it doesn't have any attack boosting option to go along with it or as fantastic of a typing... likewise, the same can be said of Jirachi, which uses Calm Mind and not Cosmic Power).

I don't like Soak. Taking a look through the list of this move's learners will show that every single one is solely Water-typed, bar Pelipper (and the ignorable Azurill). This means that every mon in the list of learners has literally no STAB to hit a Soaked opponent with; at best, the move can be used for gimmicks like using Toxic on Steel-types. However, Mollux has a very formidable STAB in the form of Sludge Bomb, higher Special Attack than any one of them, a move that is super-effective on Water-types, and better defenses. Upon using Soak on a switch-in (for example, Latios or Tyranitar), Mollux both removes any sort of STAB it possessed and gives itself a target with no resistances - and, if it's running Thunderbolt, a weakness - to its moves. More entertainingly, it removes the Rock-typing of any switch-ins, meaning that Tyranitar, the most Specially Defensive mon in the tier outside of Blissey / Chansey, is now vulnerable to the onslaughts of what was once a tiny little unSTAB Thunderbolt. Modest 252 Thunderbolt 2HKOes 252 HP Tyranitar that has had Soak used on it and has a chance to 2HKO 252/196+ (and guarantees any Tyranitar's 2HKO with any entry hazard due to sandstorm hurting Tyranitar). If the opponent switches Choice Specs Latios into a Soak, it cannot 2HKO full HP 252 HP Mollux without Psychic while it 2HKOes handily in return or Recover stalls (if it gets that) otherwise. In general, a lot of formidable Pokemon have issues 2HKOing Mollux without their STABs (bar mons with EQ) while Mollux can 2HKO them in return.

[uwnim]

Acid Armor is allowed, akela.

Nothing on the pending list seems to be dangerous enough to not allow, so I think they should be allowed.

[SunnyE]

The Reptile, and people saying that "almost everything that runs earthquake runs stone edge/rock slide too", of the pokemon that are not on our threat list, the only ones that have Smogon sets that carry Earthquake are: Venusaur, Mamoswine, Haxorus, Metagross, Gastrodon, Donphan, Salamence and Gyarados. Of those, only Gyarados, Mamoswine and Donphan has a set that had both Earthquake AND Stone Edge. And even then, Donphan with stone edge and Gyarados with Earthquake are rare-ish (more-so the donphan).
so, how exactly does 3 pokemon in all of OU become "almost everything", remembering that all other pokemon that get edge-quake are suppost to Check/Counter Mollux anyway.

EDIT: after magnet rise, Venusaur can't revenge kill even if you miss the fire blast Mamoswine. Haxorus and Salamence will be locked into Outrage, so you can go to your Steel type of choice and set up whatever you want, be it hazards with Ferry/Forry/Bronzong, or actual stats with Lucario, SD Scizor or AgiliGross(do those still exist?). Gyarados and Mamoswine, if not Jolly max speed, might be out-sped by Mollux and be KO'd by Thunder(bolt)/Fire Blast before trying to Stone Edge. Donphan, Mollux out-speed and OHKO with Fire Blast iirc and Gastrodon, Mollux carrying HP grass also out-speeds and KO's iirc. In other words, Magnet rise gives us a huge edge over basically everything that uses Earthquake, with, in my humble opinion, a bit too much ease. Mollux is about overcoming your flaws, to me, he should be a hard-ish-to-play but with great output when used correctly kind of pokemon, and Recycle does that more than Magnet Rise.

[The Reptile]

Originally Posted by Fat SunnyE

remembering that all other pokemon that get edge-quake are suppost to Check/Counter Mollux anyway.

That's what I meant.

Also, from the list of pokemon you posted:
Venusaur has no business switching in on Mollux anyways, especailly in the sun. It can only revenge kill
Mamoswine is in the same boat as Venusaur.
iirc, Haxorus can kill with Outrage regardless.
Metagross has no business switching in, especially since we outspeed. Gastrodon is a fair point, he only needs to watch out for HP Grass. He run Earth Power more often then not iirc though.
Donphan could switch in I guess, but he doesn't enjoy a Fire Blast to the face.
Salamence is in the same boat as Haxorus (iirc)
Gyarados definitely has no business switching in, since there is the threat of an electric-type attack. Also, if he switches into Mollux, EQ is obvious (although Stone Edge could also be coming at us)