Pokemon RBY In-game Tiers

[Carl]

Just want to point out for Tauros (in RB at least), or anything in Safari Zone, that there is a glitch where you can catch those pokemon outside of the step limit and with your duplicated Master Balls, or whatever pokeball you want to use, by surfing on the edge of Seafoam. It still takes a little time investment to get a Tauros to appear but at least you won't be throwing Safari Balls and reading "Oops it missed" or whatever.. Not that I think this gives more merit to Tauros being in a high tier but something to think about and perhaps mention in the additional notes on him and other Safari mons.

[Aleva]

I'm confused, I thought we weren't counting glitches? Otherwise you can just duplicate Rare Candies and everything...

[NixHex]

Yeah I almost included that but we established earlier in this thread that glitches aren't allowed. MissingNo. is so easy that it's easy to forget that it's a glitch. >.> But yeah, just reaffirming, no glitches allowed.

[Oglemi*]

Just posting to say that, as it is, you guys are writing waaaaaaay too much for your entries if this has plans to go onsite. The entries should be short and sweet, a lot like the ones that are currently onsite, such as the HGSS in-game tiers that I wrote.

You're free to give slightly bulkier entries than what is written there, but it definitely cannot be the current length that you guys have.

[NixHex]

If you notice in TrollFreak's thread, the entries he put into the op were condensed versions of what was submitted in the thread. Honestly, I think the huge entries like the "novels" that are being submitted are a great source of discussion. Let us have our fun and make the OP responsible for condensing the info presented here like TF has done.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Fat Garud

What? Your listing is more than a little odd. Charmander is no top-tier, if you have to overlevel him to beat Brock, this would essentially put Pidgey on the same level. A level 58 Pidgey can beat Brock's Onix with tackle. Doesn't make it top-tier. I get late-game mechanics are broken, but this still doesn't make Charmander significantly better. The first 2 gyms he takes far more prep to beat, where Squirtle and Bulbasaur can just waltz in and out like they own the place. And the Elite 4 member he should be good against, Lorlei, is actually a real threat to him due to most ice types being water as well.

charmander is top tier without question

even if you never fight a single wild mon and even avoid some trainers (and i dont see why you would, since you ohko all the bug catchers), if you fight with charmander alone (which actually takes less work than catching and raising a secondary so its hardly a handicap) it will be a high enough level to beat brock without much trouble at all. then pre-mount moon, mount moon itself, and nugget bridge + bill's area will get charmeleon high enough to beat misty without any trouble (you have 100 base power dig at that point). then you just win with dig/fire move/slash/fly.

that isn't 'overleveling'. thats playing the game normally. the elite four arent a challenge either because of the level advantage from only using charizard. its unfortunate that eschewing other mons and only using your starter is the quickest and easiest way to beat the game, but it is, and we're dealing with tiers, not whats 'more fun'.

[Garud]

Originally Posted by Fat Glen

charmander is top tier without question

even if you never fight a single wild mon and even avoid some trainers (and i dont see why you would, since you ohko all the bug catchers), if you fight with charmander alone (which actually takes less work than catching and raising a secondary so its hardly a handicap) it will be a high enough level to beat brock without much trouble at all. then pre-mount moon, mount moon itself, and nugget bridge + bill's area will get charmeleon high enough to beat misty without any trouble (you have 100 base power dig at that point). then you just win with dig/fire move/slash/fly.

that isn't 'overleveling'. thats playing the game normally. the elite four arent a challenge either because of the level advantage from only using charizard. its unfortunate that eschewing other mons and only using your starter is the quickest and easiest way to beat the game, but it is, and we're dealing with tiers, not whats 'more fun'.

So your saying Charmander has an easier time against the first gym that Bulbasaur or Squirtle? Charmander may get through Viridian Forrest easily, but he should only be around level 9 by the time he gets to Brock, which means he's at a severe disadvantage. Even with the crappy special defense of Onix and Geodude, Charmander would still be taking tackles and could even get KO'd by Bide. He hardly has it the easiest in RBY. Even if he does beat them at a reasonable level, both of the other starters can just walk into more battles where Charmander has to rest up. Think about what types each of them beat as well.

Bulbasaur beats Water (Common - has a gym and pseudo elite 4 member), Ground (Common - has a gym), Rock (Common - has a gym), Electric (through resistance - has a gym) and Fighting (through resistance - pseudo gym + Elite 4 member). He gets the best critical move in Razor Leaf, and can cause STAB boosted crits to everyone through high PP. He also learns utility moves like Sleep Powder, Poison Powder, Leech Seed and Stun Spore very early on, evolves quickly and can utilize the deadly Toxic + Leech Seed combo.
Squirtle beats Ground (Common - has a gym), Rock (Common - has a gym and some with bruno), Fire (Average - also has a gym) and he gets great moves in Ice Beam/Blizzard, Surf and Hydro Pump. He has the second best STAB in the game, resisted by only Grass types and is only weak to 2 gyms in the game.
Charmander beats Bug (common early, but no late-game presence), Grass (one gym and otherwise uncommon), Ice (who only has 1 Ice pokemon that isnt also water, and has a Psychic-type STAB to boot), Fighting (1 elite 4 member, and he uses rock types), and Ground (but most come with a second typing and rock moves, which doesn't give charmander a pure advantage.) He's weak to Water which is one of the most common types, and after becoming Charizard he becomes neutral to Ice and weaker to Electric and Rock.

Look, I understand he's probably your favourite, but lets be honest here, mid-tier is where he belongs. He's somewhat useful, but he's hurt by his typing and a large number of the other Fire pokemon can fill whatever role that needs to be done.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Fat Garud

So your saying Charmander has an easier time against the first gym that Bulbasaur or Squirtle? Charmander may get through Viridian Forrest easily, but he should only be around level 9 by the time he gets to Brock, which means he's at a severe disadvantage. Even with the crappy special defense of Onix and Geodude, Charmander would still be taking tackles and could even get KO'd by Bide. He hardly has it the easiest in RBY. Even if he does beat them at a reasonable level, both of the other starters can just walk into more battles where Charmander has to rest up. Think about what types each of them beat as well.

Bulbasaur beats Water (Common - has a gym and pseudo elite 4 member), Ground (Common - has a gym), Rock (Common - has a gym), Electric (through resistance - has a gym) and Fighting (through resistance - pseudo gym + Elite 4 member). He gets the best critical move in Razor Leaf, and can cause STAB boosted crits to everyone through high PP. He also learns utility moves like Sleep Powder, Poison Powder, Leech Seed and Stun Spore very early on, evolves quickly and can utilize the deadly Toxic + Leech Seed combo.
Squirtle beats Ground (Common - has a gym), Rock (Common - has a gym and some with bruno), Fire (Average - also has a gym) and he gets great moves in Ice Beam/Blizzard, Surf and Hydro Pump. He has the second best STAB in the game, resisted by only Grass types and is only weak to 2 gyms in the game.
Charmander beats Bug (common early, but no late-game presence), Grass (one gym and otherwise uncommon), Ice (who only has 1 Ice pokemon that isnt also water, and has a Psychic-type STAB to boot), Fighting (1 elite 4 member, and he uses rock types), and Ground (but most come with a second typing and rock moves, which doesn't give charmander a pure advantage.) He's weak to Water which is one of the most common types, and after becoming Charizard he becomes neutral to Ice and weaker to Electric and Rock.

Look, I understand he's probably your favourite, but lets be honest here, mid-tier is where he belongs. He's somewhat useful, but he's hurt by his typing and a large number of the other Fire pokemon can fill whatever role that needs to be done.

no

firstly, in the interest of not talking out of my ass, i just played the game up to brock (don't worry, it only took me 28 minutes). without fighting any random battles, charmander is level 13 by the time he's fighting vs onix, 14 if you decide to fight blue to the west of viridian (level 9? you realize youre almost at level 7 after the first battle right). i'll admit that my comment about avoiding some trainers was wrong, i forgot how few there were before brock (theres like 3 lol? either way, only one is avoidable and why would you even want to). i beat brock with 1 potion. you might need 2 if you get bad luck with the rng, but you might not need any if geodude defense curls a lot and you get a burn or something. since you get a potion from the pc at the beginning, that means you can beat brock with charmander without ever battling a wild pokemon or buying an item. neat! also how can you possibly lose to bide? he bides, you use growl until it ends, and his tackles start hitting for 2 damage. if youre having trouble against bide maybe you shouldnt be arguing about tiers.

secondly, i didn't say charmander is better than bulbasaur or squirtle (though i do think he is). i never once said he had an easier time than them during the first two gyms. i said he was a top tier in-game pokemon, which he is. 'the deadly toxic + leech seed combo' is a tremendous waste of time in-game, what are you even talking about? you dont need combos in this game. i just proved how easy brock is, misty is even easier since you have the resources (without even grinding) to be miles ahead of her and you have access to dig which does about the same damage as SE vine whip from bulba, and you can't count razor leaf unless you want to accept that at level 30 the battle is a joke no matter what you use. you then destroy lt surge with dig, and the trainers in the area get you close to level 36, then you have slash and dig which beats everything in the game, you dont even really need fire STAB. seriously, just slash everything and dig the rock mons and ghosts for SE damage and you will beat everything. bulbasaur has razor leaf but has to accept body slam's 85 base power whenever he runs into anything that resists grass (and a lot of mons resist grass), whereas charizard is either hitting with slash's 140 or dig's 200 on every single mon in the game. if you play the game 'well' then youre at such a high level that the starters' elemental affinities, both offensively and defensively, are irrelevant.

again, i never said charmander was the best starter (though i think i basically proved that he is, someone feel free to correct me if im missing anything though), so your rebuttal was, in addition to flawed, completely unnecessary. the point i was actually making, which you missed entirely, is that every starter is top tier because you get them at the beginning and you never need to catch another mon for the rest of the game (except for hm slaves). use them and you will beat every trainer you come across. you never need to battle with anything else ever. it's shitty game design that this is not only possible but optimal, but again, we're talking tier lists here, not funsies. maybe you dont have fun beating the entire game with a high level charizard and a couple hm slaves, but that really doesnt matter!

charmander isnt even my favourite, blastoise is the coolest. it's kind of funny how i made the most fun-hating, no-nonsense post i could possibly make on the subject and you still took it as fanboyism. it's great that you took the time to tell me what the type chart is, do you mind if i use it on my pokemon angelfire site?

[Glen]

also in playing last night i came to the conclusion that every pokemon game is made more personal and fun by naming your starter 'MY BOY'

MY BOY grew to level 6! they grow up so fast...

[Mekkah**]

When I make an in-game tier list I always make a rule that the player uses some kind of team, rather than solo'ing the game with one Pokemon. It's not speedrun optimal, but at least it allows for more discussion because otherwise you basically get

Top: Starters, Nidoran
Suck: Everything else

Or something like that.

But whatever setting you use, RB Charmander is Top, no questions asked. Worse than Squirtle though imo. Yellow is a different story.

[Garud]

Originally Posted by Fat Glen

no

firstly, in the interest of not talking out of my ass, i just played the game up to brock (don't worry, it only took me 28 minutes). without fighting any random battles, charmander is level 13 by the time he's fighting vs onix, 14 if you decide to fight blue to the west of viridian (level 9? you realize youre almost at level 7 after the first battle right). i'll admit that my comment about avoiding some trainers was wrong, i forgot how few there were before brock (theres like 3 lol? either way, only one is avoidable and why would you even want to). i beat brock with 1 potion. you might need 2 if you get bad luck with the rng, but you might not need any if geodude defense curls a lot and you get a burn or something. since you get a potion from the pc at the beginning, that means you can beat brock with charmander without ever battling a wild pokemon or buying an item. neat! also how can you possibly lose to bide? he bides, you use growl until it ends, and his tackles start hitting for 2 damage. if youre having trouble against bide maybe you shouldnt be arguing about tiers.

secondly, i didn't say charmander is better than bulbasaur or squirtle (though i do think he is). i never once said he had an easier time than them during the first two gyms. i said he was a top tier in-game pokemon, which he is. 'the deadly toxic + leech seed combo' is a tremendous waste of time in-game, what are you even talking about? you dont need combos in this game. i just proved how easy brock is, misty is even easier since you have the resources (without even grinding) to be miles ahead of her and you have access to dig which does about the same damage as SE vine whip from bulba, and you can't count razor leaf unless you want to accept that at level 30 the battle is a joke no matter what you use. you then destroy lt surge with dig, and the trainers in the area get you close to level 36, then you have slash and dig which beats everything in the game, you dont even really need fire STAB. seriously, just slash everything and dig the rock mons and ghosts for SE damage and you will beat everything. bulbasaur has razor leaf but has to accept body slam's 85 base power whenever he runs into anything that resists grass (and a lot of mons resist grass), whereas charizard is either hitting with slash's 140 or dig's 200 on every single mon in the game. if you play the game 'well' then youre at such a high level that the starters' elemental affinities, both offensively and defensively, are irrelevant.

again, i never said charmander was the best starter (though i think i basically proved that he is, someone feel free to correct me if im missing anything though), so your rebuttal was, in addition to flawed, completely unnecessary. the point i was actually making, which you missed entirely, is that every starter is top tier because you get them at the beginning and you never need to catch another mon for the rest of the game (except for hm slaves). use them and you will beat every trainer you come across. you never need to battle with anything else ever. it's shitty game design that this is not only possible but optimal, but again, we're talking tier lists here, not funsies. maybe you dont have fun beating the entire game with a high level charizard and a couple hm slaves, but that really doesnt matter!

charmander isnt even my favourite, blastoise is the coolest. it's kind of funny how i made the most fun-hating, no-nonsense post i could possibly make on the subject and you still took it as fanboyism. it's great that you took the time to tell me what the type chart is, do you mind if i use it on my pokemon angelfire site?

So you are saying that at level 14, that there isn't a single pokemon that can beat Brock aside from Charmander? So at level 14 Pidgey doesn't stand a chance? What about Rattata? The strategy is the same for them as it is for Charmander. Still, Bulbasaur and Squirtle do it better.

I think I see what the problem is. Maybe you don't understand what is meant by "Top Tier". The Top Tier (where no starter belongs in this game) are pokemon that need little support from TMs or items, have great stats, great typing and are easily accessible. It is generally assumed that you can beat the game with any pokemon provided you give them the right support, these just do it better. Certain pokemon stand far taller than others, Charmander is not one of them. At any stage in the game, there is a pokemon you could have had that does the job better, aside from Viridian Forrest (and even then everything is using tackle/scratch anyway). There are so many specifics that are required for Charmander to work effectively at every point in the game that it seems more laborious than catching others and using them. I'm not saying he's useless, but he cannot roll through the game by himself the way others can. He can't rely on his STAB attacks like others can because fire is commonly resisted, and he can't take hits and he has no utility moves. He's not as quick as quite a few pokemon that are remaining. Ninetails hits harder for the same speed, Arcanine is slower but has huge attack and special attack with better stats all round, Rapidash is faster with more attack and Flareon has even better Special and Attack stats and can take advantage of Hyper Beam to round out coverage with Quick Attack for priority. Lets face it, Charizard has one niche and that's being a Fire/Flying type, and that only really gives it an advantage over Fighting types and Earth types, many of which carry Rock Slide anyway. In addition, Moltres is better, although you get it too late to really matter.

Here's how I see the "Top Tier":
Abra
Staryu
Nidoran Male
Nidoran Female
Zapdos
Snorlax

All of these pokemon have so much going for them with Charmander's only advantage over any of them being that he can be obtained earlier. That's it. All of them are more versatile and make the game an absolute breeze. They are the TOP tier. Maybe Charmander is qualified for High-tier, MAYBE. But it is definitely NOT top tier. Top is for the best of the best. And if you are wondering, when I played Pokemon Blue I only used my Venasaur and I beat the game easy. Hell, my moves on it were terrible and I was winning at everything. Just because I played it that way though, doesn't make him top tier.

And there are other things you mentioned, like you nitpicked on "inefficient" strategies like Leech-Seed + Toxic, but they don't lose points for taking longer to do. A strategy that works has its viability based on its effectiveness, and time it takes to complete comes down to whether the player is willing to be patient. All combo moves, while slow, are viable and a Pokemon should not be punished on the tiering list, its not just all-out attackers that have an advantage.

And I noticed you seemed a bit defensive about what I was saying, but I'm just disagreeing with your opinion. I'm merely discussing a point, so there's no need to get offended about anything I say and I have nothing against you, personally or otherwise. I just don't think Charmander has enough going for it to be top-tier. Feel free to argue your point if you have anything more to say on this, but I think we are covered.

[Aleva]

@Garud
How exactly is Staryu Top Tier when you can't get it until Route 17? By your own definition, Top Tier means the pokemon is easily accessible. Snorlax and Zapdos too.

All three of the starters belong in Top Tier, imo. They all appear at the earliest point in the game and they all have good movepools and stats.

[Garud]

Originally Posted by Fat Aleva

@Garud
How exactly is Staryu Top Tier when you can't get it until Route 17? By your own definition, Top Tier means the pokemon is easily accessible. Snorlax and Zapdos too.

All three of the starters belong in Top Tier, imo. They all appear at the earliest point in the game and they all have good movepools and stats.

Eh, Staryu's my bad, but I just don't know if I can go past its insanely good typing, stats and movepool. Not sure, but its still up for discussion.

The starters have great stats? Since when? I mean they arent Mr Mime's level of bad, but they are neither Tauros's or Alakazam's level of good either.

[Naix]

Originally Posted by Fat Garud

Eh, Staryu's my bad, but I just don't know if I can go past its insanely good typing, stats and movepool. Not sure, but its still up for discussion.

Staryu comes at level 15 when the rest of your team should be at least level 30. It's also heavily reliant on TMs, due to its barren level-up movepool (Recover and Hydro Pump are all you got there). If I were to place Staryu anywhere, it would be in Low, or even Bottom.

[RedMeowth]

Originally Posted by Fat Garud

So you are saying that at level 14, that there isn't a single pokemon that can beat Brock aside from Charmander? So at level 14 Pidgey doesn't stand a chance? What about Rattata? The strategy is the same for them as it is for Charmander. Still, Bulbasaur and Squirtle do it better.

Except that by the time you face Brock, Charmander will actually have a way to deal some decent damage to Brock's Pokemon. Pidgey and Rattata are stuck with physical attacks, which Brock's Rock Pokemon can just shrug off without a second thought due to their high Defense. Charmander will know Ember at that point. Yeah, Fire isn't very effective against Rock Pokemon according to the type chart, but since Fire moves are Special attacks, Ember will hit Brock's Pokemon in their much weaker Special stat. Charmander may have a disadvantage against Brock, but if you picked him over Squirtle or Bulbasaur, he can still get the job done more easily than anything else you have at that point besides a Butterfree with Confusion. (Charmander and Butterfree don't even have to worry about any Rock attacks from Brock's Pokemon.)

Not here to argue where Charmander should be on the tier list. Just pointing out nonsense.

[NixHex]

Originally Posted by Fat Garud

I think I see what the problem is. Maybe you don't understand what is meant by "Top Tier". The Top Tier (where no starter belongs in this game) are pokemon that need little support from TMs or items, have great stats, great typing and are easily accessible.

Let's look at Charmander:
-need little support from TMs or items: Gets Slash before it's Charizard. Gets Flamethrower at 46 (as Charizard) which is about the perfect time to learn it.
-have great stats: 109 Special and 100 Speed are awesome in-game. EDIT: crap, thanks Dyoshi
-great typing: Doesn't matter too much early game because it can get by Brock with Ember and Misty (to a smaller extent) with Slash. It's also laughable that you say that Rattata and Pidgey can get their way past Brock seeing as how they'll Tackle you to death unless you use Potions (support from items). It also takes forever. I know you were trying to make some point but it was fallacious.
-accessible: Very hard to get, you have to walk to the second Pokeball to get it.
-something about utility moves later in your argument: If every Top tier Pokemon must have an HM move, Charizard learns 3/5 of them: Cut, Fly (Yellow), and Strength. Cut is debatable since there is no move deleter and you want room for Slash, but you get my point.

He can't rely on his STAB attacks like others can because fire is commonly resisted, and he can't take hits and he has no utility moves.

Did you read Glen's post? I don't think I need to defend this one.

Arcanine is slower but has huge attack and special attack with better stats all round

Have fun leveling the slower Growlithe to level 50 just for Flamethrower with an 85% accurate, recoil-inducing Take Down. You can give it Fire Blast, but then it requires TM support, which is a crime.

Rapidash

You clearly have never raised a Ponyta before. It takes quite a while (not Dragonair 'a while' but unnecessarily long for a Pokemon you get mid to late game).

Flareon has even better Special and Attack stats and can take advantage of Hyper Beam to round out coverage with Quick Attack for priority.

Oh my god. You think Charizard has to wait around for Flamethrower? This thing is stuck with Ember and Fire Spin until level 54 (52 in Yellow), is slow as fuck so it can't even take advantage of trapping stuff. Hyper Beam is an expensive TM.

Moltres is better, although you get it too late to really matter.

By the time you are at the elite 4 you have battled with Charizard since level 5 and its Stat Exp. isn't 0 so it's already way stronger, faster, and more bulky. This actually goes for all of the other Fire-types you mentioned because they are available much later in the game and at lower levels than Charizard will be.

Oh, are you only making these points to show how bad Fire-types are and Charizard is worse than these? My bad.

All combo moves, while slow, are viable and a Pokemon should not be punished on the tiering list, its not just all-out attackers that have an advantage.

They should be punished by being moved out of Top tier, apparently.

[Dracoyoshi8]

Originally Posted by Fat NixHex

-have great stats: 109 Special and 100 Speed are awesome in-game.

Charizard has only 85 Special.

Charizard is arguably the best Fire-type in the game. The only other Pokemon who can be considered for the spot is Vulpix. It learns Flamethrower at level 35 and has higher Special when fully evolved, at the cost of a smaller movepool. Arcanine is too TM reliant unless you want to train Growlithe to a very high level, Flareon is slow and naturally learns one good Fire-type move (and at a very high level), and Ponyta, Magmar and Moltres just come too late and/or have similar movepool problems to Arcanine.

So, in terms of Charmander vs Vulpix, Charmander is:
-Available earlier
-Available in all versions
-Has higher Attack
-Can learn Fly, Earthquake and Slash to diversify its movepool
-Can learn Swords Dance to boosts its Attack, but it only really benefits EQ/Fly

Vulpix, on the other hand:
-Has higher Special
-Learns Flamethrower earlier
-Learns Confuse Ray
-Has fewer weaknesses

In all honesty, they are pretty equal. Charmander's major downfall is Venusaur is probably the best Grass-type in the game (Exeggutor isn't as good in single player) and Squirtle is a top contender for best Water-type (Gyarados, Tentacool and maybe Dewgong/Starmie are its major competition, although Squirtle levels up faster than all of them). This means Charmander not only has to compete with Vulpix, but with its other starters as well. This obviously does not apply in Yellow.

Overall though, Charmander is a High/Top Tier Pokemon. If I had to place it anywhere, it would be High tier. Charmander is good, but when compared to the raw power of Alakazam or Snorlax, or the diversity of the Nidos, Charmander isn't on par. It's not Top tier imo, but its definitely on the higher end of the High tier list.

[Garud]

At this point, I'm done arguing my point. I know many people don't agree with Charmander being lower than Top Tier, but at this point there is no reason for me to argue anymore. To be quite honest, I've just stopped caring where you put him, so just shove him anywhere. As long as you don't take Abra or the Nidos off the top I'll be content with whatever falls into place.

[Naix]

Redoing Magikarp, because my original submission wasn't very impressive.


Magikarp - Mid Tier
Availability: You can buy it almost for free (500 Poke, to be precise), but at level 5. It evolves at level 20.
Stats: As a Magikarp, it's got nothing going for it, except for okay Speed. Once it evolves, all of its stats (minus Speed) grow from pathetic to great.
Movepool: As a Magikarp, it starts out with the useless Splash, and can't properly defend itself until it grows to level 15 and learns Tackle. Once it's a Gyarados, however, it gets the more powerful Bite, and you can teach it Water Gun via the normally useless TM12. It can also learn Thunderbolt and Ice Beam by TM, and Dragon Rage at level 25.
Power: For the first 15 levels, it won't be able to beat even a Caterpie 1-on-1. After it evolves, it can occasionally take on entire Routes by itself.
Type: Water's great when you get it, but it can't use any Water-type moves when you get it. When it evolves, its weakness to Electric becomes more amplified, but it now resists Grass and gains an immunity to Ground. Its newfound weaknesses to Ice and Rock aren't too bad, because Ice is rare in-game and Rock-types are washed away by Water Gun/Surf.
Match-ups: Because of how pathetic it is as a Magikarp, all of the following are assuming it's a Gyarados.
Misty: High Attack and resistance to Water mean that Misty's Pokemon are reliably beaten; however, it's quite unlikely that you'll have evolved Magikarp by the time you fight her.
Lt. Surge: Don't bother.
Erika: Gyarados resists Grass, but don't use it against her unless you're willing to teach it Ice Beam.
Koga: Surf hits his Pokemon's weaker Special, often KOing in 2 hits.
Sabrina: Bite/Body Slam/other Normal attack squishes her fragile Psychic-types.
Blaine: Gyarados's type advantage gives it the win.
Giovanni: See Blaine.
Lorelei: Gyara's needs Thunderbolt to harm her Pokemon, but her Lapras will usually survive a hit and send a Blizzard right back at it.
Bruno: His 2 Onix are turned to rubble by (insert Water-type attack here), and Hi Jump Kick/Submission is resisted by Gyarados's Flying secondary typing.
Agatha: Gyarados can't learn any moves that are SE against any of her Pokemon, except for Golbat. Don't use it against her unless you like seeing your sea serpent get statused.
Lance: 4 of his Pokemon resist Water, but all of them (minus Gyarados) are weak to Ice. Keep in mind that all of his Pokemon know Hyper Beam, which preys on Gyarados's mediocre Defense. In Yellow, his 2 Dragonair and Dragonite know Thunderbolt/Ice Beam and Thunder+Blizzard, respectively.
Additional Comments: As shown above, Gyarados is awesome, but if you want to use it, you'll have to bear with the completely useless Magikarp for 15 long levels, due to its experience curve (Slow). Once it evolves, however, it becomes incredibly powerful and self-sufficient.

Also redoing Lapras, because I may have overrated it a bit in my original submission.


Lapras - Low Tier (possibly Bottom)
Availability: Given to you by a Silph Employee, at level 15.
Stats: All of Lapras's stats are okay, with the exceptions of massive HP and unappealing Speed.
Movepool: Learns Body Slam and Ice Beam by level-up, and has TM access to Thunderbolt and Psychic. It's notably the one of the few non-starter gift Pokemon to learn both Surf and Strength.
Power: Because you get it at Lv. 15, when the levels of your opponents' Pokemon are in the high 20's to low 30's, don't expect it to be winning any fights on its own.
Type: Well, it's a Water-type with STAB on Ice Beam...
Match-ups: Because you get it at the pitiful level 15, you'll definitely need to grind to acheive good results against the remaining Gym Leaders.
Erika: Lapras won't have learned Ice Beam by then unless you used up TM13, and there's no reason to put off Erika until you get Lapras in the first place.
Koga: Surf hits his Pokemon's weak Defense, and Lapras has the bulk to take a Selfdestruct.
Sabrina: Her Pokemon are trampled on by Body Slam.
Blaine: Lapras resists Fire despite being part Ice, and gets STAB on Surf.
Giovanni: His Ground-types are washed away by Surf.
Lorelei: Lapras can go toe-to-toe against her, but don't expect it to take out more than 2 of her Pokemon.
Bruno: Lapras can take out his 2 Onix and Hitmonchan any day of the week, but it's weak to Hi Jump Kick and Submission.
Agatha: Gengar's high Speed and Lapras's low Speed mean that Lapras will usually put to sleep before it can take out her first Gengar.
Lance: Ice Beam hits his Pokemon for SE damage, and has just enough bulk to survive 2 Hyper Beams.
Additional Comments: Lapras is held back by 2 things: its late joining time, and its poor level when you get it. If it came earlier, or at a more convenient level, it would be great, but alas it isn't. At least it's a good HM Slave.

[NixHex]

Originally Posted by Fat Dracoyoshi8

Charizard has only 85 Special.

Eh, that's kind of gross. Still, I agree with you. High tier, then. But very close to top.

[breh]

I've started a new game in Red for my own entertainment.

Anybody want me to test anything obscure on this playthrough?

EDIT: Ok, I'll do those two along with Jigglypuff (gonna be fun getting to level 34!) and Mr. Mime.

[Naix]

Originally Posted by Fat breh

I've started a new game in Red for my own entertainment.

Anybody want me to test anything obscure on this playthrough?

Perhaps Hitmonlee or Doduo?

Also... (I'm submitting it, not suggesting it)


Drowzee - Mid Tier
Availability: Route 11 (levels 9-15 in Red/Blue, levels 15-19 in Yellow), evolves at Lv. 26
Stats: Usable Attack, average at best Speed, but very good Special. Can take a physical hit if need be.
Movepool: Knows Hypnosis from the start, learns Confusion at Lv. 17, Headbutt at Lv. 24, Psychic at Lv. 37 (Lv. 32 if you hold out evolving it). Learns the effect-less Tri Attack via TM49, if Headbutt is unsatisfactory.
Power: It has Hypnosis when you catch it, so it has a good chance of victory against slower threats. Otherwise, Pound coming from a base 48 Attack isn't exactly going to cut it. When it gets Headbutt and evolves, it doesn't have to rely on Hypnosis as much, although it's still quite useful.
Type: Mono-Psychic is awesome in Gen I, being only weak to weak (seemingly) nonexistent Bug. The abundance of Poison-types in-game just makes it better.
Match-ups: Drowzee's Psychic typing and immediate access to Hypnosis means that it generally does well against the Gym Leaders and Elite Four.
Lt. Surge: Pound won't be doing much, so you'll be reliant on Hypnosis to win against him.
Erika: 2 of her 3 Pokemon are weak to Confusion, and the one that isn't is slower than Hypno, meaning he has an easy victory. Watch out for Wrap/Bind, though.
Koga: Type chart says Hypno wins.
Sabrina: Hypno resists Psychic and can Headbutt back, generally doing more damage.
Blaine: Rapidash is faster and has Fire Spin and Stomp. Otherwise, he's okay.
Giovanni: Do you see those purple and blue smears on the floor and walls? Those were once Giovanni's Nidoking and Nidoqueen. By the way, the last trace of Hypno is the claw marks it made on the floor before being dragged underground by his Dugtrio.
Lorelei: Her Pokemon are generally special attackers, which hit Hypno on its higher Special. Don't expect it to take her on by itself, though.
Bruno: The only threatening Poke on his team is Hitmonlee, because his 2 Onix and special attacking Hitmonchan are pathetic, and Machamp is slow, leaving it susceptible to Hypnosis.
Agatha: Simply put, don't lead against her with it, because her first Gengar can beat Hypno to the Hypnosis. Otherwise, she's quite managable.
Lance: All of his Pokemon can potentially vaporize Hypno with Hyper Beam, and 3/5 of them are faster.
Additional Comments: While Drowzee isn't a bad Pokemon thanks to Hypnosis and its typing, it's generally outclassed by Abra and Mr. Mime. Still, Drowzee is by no means a bad Pokemon, thanks to access to Hypnosis and the best immediate physical bulk of the three.

[R_N]

Originally Posted by Fat NixHex

Eh, that's kind of gross. Still, I agree with you. High tier, then. But very close to top.

It's 84 Special Attack, by the way

[Arcticblast]

Call me crazy, but I think Caterpie can stay out of Bottom tier just because of Butterfree's Confusion. Confusion wrecks Brock and holds true through Mount Moon.

[Glen]

man, seriously? i don't really know why i like arguing about pokemon but

Originally Posted by Fat Garud

So you are saying that at level 14, that there isn't a single pokemon that can beat Brock aside from Charmander? So at level 14 Pidgey doesn't stand a chance? What about Rattata? The strategy is the same for them as it is for Charmander. Still, Bulbasaur and Squirtle do it better.

no. that's not what i'm saying. notice how you started your last post with 'so you are saying [something completely wrong]?' as well? i never once said charmander beats brock more easily than the other starters do. it's funny, if i was the kind of person who tried to buttress his shitty arguments with falsehoods like the level 9 thing, when i was proved wrong i would probably reconsider why i think the way i do, not keep arguing.

Originally Posted by Fat Garud

I think I see what the problem is. Maybe you don't understand what is meant by "Top Tier". The Top Tier (where no starter belongs in this game) are pokemon that need little support from TMs or items, have great stats, great typing and are easily accessible. It is generally assumed that you can beat the game with any pokemon provided you give them the right support, these just do it better.

wow, and here i almost felt bad for being so condescending. here's the thing: charizard needs one tm. dig. slash and dig. game over. zzzz. great stats, little to no item support (after that one potion in brock's gym i haven't used a single potion), and i would say pretty easily accessible.

how can you possibly do it 'better' than the method i just described? you steamroll the entire game with two moves and absolutely no effort, and you only have to catch 2 hm slaves to beat it.

Originally Posted by Fat Garud

Certain pokemon stand far taller than others, Charmander is not one of them. At any stage in the game, there is a pokemon you could have had that does the job better, aside from Viridian Forrest (and even then everything is using tackle/scratch anyway). There are so many specifics that are required for Charmander to work effectively at every point in the game that it seems more laborious than catching others and using them. I'm not saying he's useless, but he cannot roll through the game by himself the way others can.

why am i responding to this? you aren't even reading my posts. you seem to be wedded to antiquated notions of pokemon red and blue, have you played them since you were seven?

let's look at what 'top tier' means in this game, since you decry me for apparently not knowing yet dont really seem to get it yourself. seeing how there is nothing that could possibly be construed as challenging in this game, tiering largely comes down to efficacy. toxic + leech seed is not top tier because it accomplishes as much, if not less, than spamming high power moves like slash, while taking much, much longer. double team x 6 and spamming hyper potions lets you beat anything in the game with an underleveled mon, but that doesn't make it a top tier strategy. charizard is top tier because you can breeze through the game with him and there is never a point where he has trouble.

there is nothing laborious about playing through the game as charmander solo. in fact, i would argue that it is one of the quickest ways to beat the game. do you consider things like 'fighting trainers' and 'gaining experience points' and 'ohkoing everything' to be laborious? i'm confused as to why you seem to think i had to spend hours grinding to accomplish these feats, even though i've explained that i did no such thing.

Originally Posted by Fat Garud

He can't rely on his STAB attacks like others can because fire is commonly resisted, and he can't take hits and he has no utility moves. He's not as quick as quite a few pokemon that are remaining. Ninetails hits harder for the same speed, Arcanine is slower but has huge attack and special attack with better stats all round, Rapidash is faster with more attack and Flareon has even better Special and Attack stats and can take advantage of Hyper Beam to round out coverage with Quick Attack for priority. Lets face it, Charizard has one niche and that's being a Fire/Flying type, and that only really gives it an advantage over Fighting types and Earth types, many of which carry Rock Slide anyway. In addition, Moltres is better, although you get it too late to really matter.

do you have any idea what the hell you're talking about? why are you mentioning quick attack? speed doesn't matter in game, you go first because you're a higher level than the opponent. why would you hyper beam with flareon when you can slash for 140 bp with charizard? jesus, i so rarely get mad on the internet but you're just... so bad. it's really frustrating.

fire stab is garbage. the only moves you need after level 33 (so, maybe 20 minutes of game time past misty? probably even less. we're looking at less than 2 hours game time total) are slash and dig. you can even teach him whatever HMs you want in his last two slots, slash and dig hit everything in the game for 140 or 200. very few other pokemon can boast such a claim. since 140 bp is enough to ohko anything given the incontestable level advantage you will have, things like SE STAB moves are completely superfluous, making 'type advantage' not even worth discussing. what is complicated about this? slash is broken ingame. it is absolutely broken. it hits nothing SE, but it never needs to to ohko using my 'strategy'. it has the power of something like STAB flamethrower or surf, and the only pokemon it doesnt hit effectively get ohkod by one other move without question. venusaur has razor leaf which hits even harder, but is NVE against so much, and you dont have a single-move solution to everything that resists it. as charmeleon, you ohko everything in the game with one of two moves. how is that not top tier? kadabra can do it with one move, psychic, but off the top of my head i can't think of too many others that beat the game so quickly and with so little effort.

'niche'? its fucking rby in-game. the only 'niche' in the game is winning quickly, and charizard does that. i wouldn't be so vehement were i not, you know, playing the game right now.

Originally Posted by Fat Garud

Here's how I see the "Top Tier":
Abra
Staryu
Nidoran Male
Nidoran Female
Zapdos
Snorlax

All of these pokemon have so much going for them with Charmander's only advantage over any of them being that he can be obtained earlier. That's it. All of them are more versatile and make the game an absolute breeze.

abra is top tier for sure because psychic is just a better slash (but suffers a bit because youre probably gonna spend 10 or 20 minutes catching it, and even even longer getting it to 16, and that time could have been spent clearing the game normally and youd probably be better off having just used your starter during that time), nidos probably are too (there are multiple situations where they have to settle for a 95 move instead of a 140 move though, granted blizzard is 120 and hyper beam is 150 but that 90 accuracy is irritating and has the potential to slow things down). i'll agree with staryu as well but his tm needs are a bit irritating, zapdos is unnecessary because hes not really better than anything you currently have and he cant beat rock/ground mons quickly, and snorlax goes second so often that youre almost doubling your game time, so why bother?

stop looking at the game like it's competitive 1v1, where things like type matchup actually matter. they don't.

Originally Posted by Fat Garud

They are the TOP tier. Maybe Charmander is qualified for High-tier, MAYBE. But it is definitely NOT top tier. Top is for the best of the best. And if you are wondering, when I played Pokemon Blue I only used my Venasaur and I beat the game easy. Hell, my moves on it were terrible and I was winning at everything. Just because I played it that way though, doesn't make him top tier.

venusaur is top tier. i dont remember if you can ohko everything that resists razor leaf with body slam, but i dont think you can so he takes a bit longer. again, playing through the game normally with these pokemon, _with no time spend grinding_, results in a gameplay experience where it is impossible to lose, and every pokemon is defeated in 1 or 2 turns.

pidgey can't do that.

Originally Posted by Fat Garud

And there are other things you mentioned, like you nitpicked on "inefficient" strategies like Leech-Seed + Toxic, but they don't lose points for taking longer to do. A strategy that works has its viability based on its effectiveness, and time it takes to complete comes down to whether the player is willing to be patient. All combo moves, while slow, are viable and a Pokemon should not be punished on the tiering list, its not just all-out attackers that have an advantage.

this is just flat-out wrong. again, there is nothing challenging about this game, ergo tier lists should be decided based on what allows the game to be beaten the quickest and with the least effort. toxic/leech seed lose tremendous points for taking longer to do; name one situation in the game where using toxic and leech seed will put you in a better situation than just using razor leaf twice. you are living in a fantasy land.

Originally Posted by Fat Garud

And I noticed you seemed a bit defensive about what I was saying, but I'm just disagreeing with your opinion. I'm merely discussing a point, so there's no need to get offended about anything I say and I have nothing against you, personally or otherwise. I just don't think Charmander has enough going for it to be top-tier. Feel free to argue your point if you have anything more to say on this, but I think we are covered.

actually i tried my best to be subtly offensive because your argument is ridiculous, sorry if it came off as defensive though. but yes, i think we're covered too.