CAP 3 - Part 12 - Movepool Limits

[capefeather]

This is the stage where we set limits to Mollux's movepool ahead of the actual movepool submissions. Mollux's stats generate a Base Stat Rating of 309.3651 (Very Good). According to the on-site article, a Very Good BSR corresponds to a Very Good movepool limit of 75 total moves and 35 "Very Good Moves". However, we may end up going higher or lower depending on the Pokémon. That is where this thread comes in.

Oh yeah, the actual list of VGMs can be found in this article. Wouldn't be the first thing I've forgotten with respect to this stage...

Be forewarned that there is no poll for this stage of the CAP. The Topic Leader (Deck Knight) will decide the movepool limits for CAP 3 upon the conclusion of this thread.

Mollux so far:

Concept: Extreme Makeover: Typing Edition

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Originally Posted by Fat Theorymon

Name: Extreme Makeover: Typing Edition

General Description: The idea here is to create a Pokemon who's typing, while normally considered poor defensively and/or offensively, becomes a strong selling point of the Pokemon itself via help from an ability, stats, and/or movepool.

Justification: There are a lot of typings we scoff at on a daily basis because of their serious flaws, often forgetting about their strong points. For example, Poison is a really terrible offensive typing, but a decent defensive typing, while the Ice typing is good offensively, but awful defensively. Instead of just accepting that some typings will just ruin a Pokemon, this CAP concept aims to take that "terrible typing", and find ways to fix it (usually via ability, movepool, or stats) to the point where the formerly terrible typing becomes the CAP's strong point! The reason this CAP could benefit OU is because a Pokemon who makes a "bad typing" into a great one could find many unique offensive and/or defensive niches that aren't currently found!

Questions To Be Answered

-What does it take for a Pokemon to overcome its "bad typing" so much that its typing becomes good? Are the stats the biggest contributer, is the ability the thing that saves it, does movepool make it a force, or is it a combination of the above?

-How does the typing makeover effect the Pokemon's playstyle? Does the Pokemon become a unique wall that uses its makeover to overcome its typing's normally fatal flaws, does the make over make a terrible offensive typing into a fearsome sweeper, does the makeover make it into a formidible combination of deffense and offense to a typing that brings it neither, or does the makeover bring forth something none of us see coming from the typing?

-Which resistances and immunities are the most relevant to the metagame? Sure, this concept is aiming to have a "bad typing" become good, but part of that will require the bad typing to have some key resistances and/or immunties to certain typings to defend against or set up on, while still having a very unorthodox competitive typing. This works the other way around too, what are the typings most relevant to hit super effectively or at least neutral?

-How will the rest of the OU metagame react to this extreme type makeover? Will Pokemon start carrying moves they normally wouldn't carry to break through a new defensive threat, will some Pokemon take on new defensive roles due to resisting the unorthodox STABs CAP 3 may carry? Or will This Pokemon, despite being a very real threat, not have many "custom made sets" to beat it, being more of a Pokemon that is a reaction to the metagame than causing a metagame reaction?

-Finally, how will this effect the teams CAP3 is on? Will this be the kind of Pokemon who needs a lot of support to become a threat, will this Pokemon be more of key team member to execute another strategy, or will this be the kind of Pokemon that's part of the glue that holds the team together?

Typing: Fire / Poison
Base stats: 95 HP / 45 Atk / 83 Def / 131 SpA / 105 SpD / 76 Spe
Abilities: Dry Skin / Illuminate

[Deck Knight]

My general opinion is that Mollux should have a goodly amount of VGMs so it can act competently at support given its limited coverage.

As such, I think the 75 / 35 Guidelines are a good starting point, and aside from maybe lowering the number of allowed moves to 70, I really don't see a problem with it. In fact, I might as well post the 24 hour warning in case you want to argue for something.

[Pwnemon]

since mollux has a case of terrible 4MSS i don't really see any amount of allowed VGMs being an issue for it; it's going to have to run at least an attack and recover at all times so prediction wars shouldn't be too bad. Besides, versatility better be this things strength because it isn't typing, it isn't stats, it isn't coverage, it isn't boosting moves... i'd personally be fine with a 40 or even 45 VGM - the only concern i have is a bloated movepool but as long as we keep total down this should work out fine

[nyttyn]

Personally I think a 75 moves / 40 very good moves pool will be more then sufficient for Mollux. It gives it enough breathing room to have premier moves that it needs to succeed while still not getting everything ever. 75 / 35 though, I feel, is a bit TOO constraining. Give it the extra 5 move wiggle room, it needs it. At the end of the day though 75 / 35 can still work, it will just cut down on the options that Mollux can get, and Mollux? Is a pokemon that really needs options.

[Birkal*]

75/35 or 75/40 sounds good to me. I wouldn't go over 40, but I think splurging a little on VGMs isn't terribly out of line, especially with the specific mindset we had going into this CAP of choosing a "less that optimal" typing. However, take into account that we're not going to be using many moves (if any) that are physical on the VGM side. I don't think that's a game changer, but it's food for thought.

[AOPSUser]

Originally Posted by Fat Birkal

Right now, CAP3 is very low OU, if not even lower. If we're going to make a push for this mon to be desirable on a team, I'd recommend we pick up our pace and start splurging. We chose a poor ability. We chose a "safe" stat spread. We chose non-Drought and NCA after Dry Skin.

So yeah. Splurging? I agree with 75/40 frankly. Or 80/40, but I don't really see the point in that.

[MCBarrett]

I would definitely think a few more vgms could help so 75/40 should be a good amount

[nyttyn]

Having been enlightened to the importance of spools, I believe that we should keep it to 75 / 35. 75 / 40 makes room for octazooka and hurricane, and that's just asking for trouble.

[srk1214]

I'm of the opinion the prescribed 75/35 limits are the right limits as well.

If we allow 75/40, submitted movepools are going to look very similar. 75/35 will produce a wider variety of movepools as creators have to make a tough decision or two rather than just throwing every possible move on.

[ZhengTann]

Originally Posted by Fat srk1214

... If we allow 75/40, submitted movepools are going to look very similar. 75/35 will produce a wider variety of movepools as creators have to make a tough decision or two rather than just throwing every possible move on.

I have to agree with srk's opinion on that. For myself, I'm fine with 35 or 40 VGMs, having the former simply means I need to do a bit of culling... I mean tidying.

On a slightly relevant note, given Mollux's huge difference in its attacking stats, in which category would regular offensive Physical VGMs (Return, Frustration, Flare Blitz, etc.) be placed in? Just thought it might help in my decisions.

[DetroitLolcat]

Nothing wrong with 75/35 in my opinion. 75/35 gives Mollux a reasonable amount of useable moves, and honestly anything/35 makes sense. However, 75/40 might be a little too much; the more restrictive nature of 75/35 might allow for some more creative movepools and give the movepool submitters more to think about.

All in all, no big deal on the semantics of the movepools but 75/35 seems like a good guideline.

[srk1214]

I completely agree with ZhengTann's question by the way.

Octazooka for example IS NOT a VGM, but may well be one on Mollux. Likewise, Zen Headbutt IS a VGM, but is not necessarily so on Mollux.

A few clarifications would be nice, as my proposed movepool currently stands in that 35ish range of VGMs but I wonder if a few of them truly are.

Maybe a ruling about whether Physical Moves should be VGMs on Mollux (aside from Flare Blitz and Gunk Shot I suppose)?

[Lord Jesseus]

That's probably a good point about physical moves, Mollux doesn't really have the Attack to go mixed or Physical, so calling those moves very good might be a stretch. Alhough it may be best to avoid complicating the process by classifying VGMs on a CAP by CAP basis...

I would agree with the notion that since the Pokemon is already intentionally designed to have less than stellar typing, it probably wouldn't hurt to buff up the allowed VGMs a little bit.
If people can't decide between 35 and 40 you could always compromose and make the limit 37.5. :p

[forestflamerunner]

One question. Are we not considering rest to be acompetive ability or is it just not allowed on mollux?

[The Reptile]

Wait, so would Coil count as a VGM for Mollux? He doesn't have the Attack to properly use it, but the defense boost make it a weaker Acid Armor with a boost in accuracy, making moves such as Fire Blast, Thunder (outside of rain), Hurricane (outside of rain), and Octozooka (!!) more accurate.

[kjt]

Well this could go in simple questions/simple answers but maybe someone else is thinking the same so I'll post it here. The only guide I can find on how many unique moves per level up/egg moves states that it's 16 for level and 12 for egg. But (unless I'm a mathematical failure) I've counted Reunilcus as having 17 level up moves which is kind of a contradiction. What are the fifth gen limits for number of moves in level up and egg moves . . . please.

[Mari]

Can we say that all physical moves with a secondary effect rate <= 30 % and a Base Power <= 95 are non-VGM because of Mollux' horrible physical attack stat?

I would support 80/35, so Mollux has access to more different movesets, especial since many non-VGM moves are somewhat interesting and CAP is a high experimental process. However I don't like more than 35 VGMs because of Mollux huge special attack and its strange type coverage.

[Quilph]

I'm going to offer my interpretation on what constitutes a VGM, which I could be wrong on. As I understand it though, moves are considered "very good" based solely on the merits of the move itself, and do not take the stats of the user in consideration. It would be laughable for Blissey to make use of Earthquake in any circumstance, but this doesn't change the fact that Earthquake is a phenomenal move. I'm pretty sure there's a list of VGMs somewhere, and that list needs to inform your movesets, not stats.

[rockspet]

Originally Posted by Fat Quilph

I'm going to offer my interpretation on what constitutes a VGM, which I could be wrong on. As I understand it though, moves are considered "very good" based solely on the merits of the move itself, and do not take the stats of the user in consideration. It would be laughable for Blissey to make use of Earthquake in any circumstance, but this doesn't change the fact that Earthquake is a phenomenal move. I'm pretty sure there's a list of VGMs somewhere, and that list needs to inform your movesets, not stats.

yeah. It's right here: VGMS

[nyttyn]

If we determined which moves were VGMs or not for every CAP, we would be here for-fucking-ever. Thus why the set of VGMs was made - a standardized list of the best. If your really need to squeeze in another move but can't because some not really VGMs but still counting as VGMs are clutting your VGM list, you can try to ask the TL to except some of them from VGM status, but really you shouldn't have bloat to the point where that's a issue in the first place.

[srk1214]

I'm well aware that list of VGMs exists. That doesnt change my question. I would not have asked it if I felt that list was sufficient for a Pokemon with such pitiful Attack and literally has zero use for Physical moves. +1 sun boosted max attack adamant Flare Blitz barely even 2HKOs Blissey/Chansey. And that's the only thing specially bulky to tank all special hits from Mollux. There is ZERO use to a physical move.

[bugmaniacbob]

Originally Posted by Fat srk1214

I'm well aware that list of VGMs exists. That doesnt change my question. I would not have asked it if I felt that list was sufficient for a Pokemon with such pitiful Attack and literally has zero use for Physical moves. +1 sun boosted max attack adamant Flare Blitz barely even 2HKOs Blissey/Chansey. And that's the only thing specially bulky to tank all special hits from Mollux. There is ZERO use to a physical move.

The point of the VGM lists is that there is supposedly a strong correlation between the strength of a Pokemon's base stats and the number of arbitrary "good moves" it receives, irrespective of which of those moves it actually can use or will use. Garchomp gets about 25 VGMs but would only ever seriously consider running about 10 of them at most. It was intended to be an entirely objective measurement (hence why the original VGM lists used usage stats, but these were heavily influenced by the Pokemon in OU that commonly used the moves, meaning that moves such as Hyper Beam were considered VGMs while Water Spout was not), and thus unchanging. If Deck wishes to alter the VGM list to better suit the concept then he can do that - however, this is supposed to be the exception rather than the rule, such that it should only really be changed if movepool flavour or the adherence to the concept is severely impacted because of it.

On the subject of the movepool limits, I tend to err on the side of fewer options. The reasoning for this is simple - Mollux has only a few offensive VGMs allowed that it will ever be expected to use, and as such the bulk of the VGMs are going to come from the humungous list of non-offensive moves. I would prefer that utility moves are kept to a bare minimum, as they distract from the typing and hence from the concept - and hence I prefer 35 VGMs to 40. The maximum number of moves doesn't bother me that much, but I'd prefer if it were kept to the usual standard of 75 moves total.

[LouisCyphre]

I am agreeing with the push to 40 VGMs or so—we have a lot of VGMs to sift through, and I would prefer to see movepool creators add what they'd like to see on CAP3 and leave out what they wouldn't, rather than having to cull desired moves.

We're not going to see every movepool crammed with every allowed VGM regardless.

[Deck Knight]

I'll go with 75 / 40 on the total moves / VGMs. We have a very select coverage movepool to choose from and more options is more better.