CAP 3 - Part 10 - Attacking Moves Discussion

[capefeather]

An attacking move is a move that deals damage to an opponent as its main purpose or one of its main purposes. All other moves are considered non-attacking moves. It is important to distinguish attacking moves, which can be used specifically to deal damage, from non-attacking moves, which are used for some major effects but may happen to deal a small amount of damage. For some moves, such as Rapid Spin, this is clear-cut. However, the classification of moves such as U-turn and Volt Switch are dependent on the user's ability to damage the opponent with the move. Competitive moves are moves that are viable for use in battle on a given Pokemon. This categorization is also Pokémon-dependent.

The Topic Leader has sole discretion for interpreting which moves are considered attacking or non-attacking, and which are considered competitive or non-competitive, for this project. He will post a list of competitive attacking moves in the first reply to this thread, and classify them into five or six groups:

• Required - Moves are those that must be in every movepool submission.
• Allowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to be allowed in the Pokémon's final movepool
• Disallowed - Moves that have been agreed through general community consensus to be disallowed from the Pokémon's final movepool
• Controversial - Moves that did not reach general community consensus, and will require a specific vote.
• Pending - Moves that have not received enough support or opposition to determine whether they are allowed, disallowed, or controversial
• Need Discussion (optional) - Moves that the TL may want to draw specific attention to at any given time. This will be updated frequently, so check back frequently.

This list will serve as a single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion. The community should make posts arguing for moves to be allowed or disallowed. The Topic Leader will re-categorize the moves as the discussion progresses, until he deems the discussion over. The controversial moves will be put to a vote to determine whether they will be allowed or not.

Remember that, technically, nothing is set in stone until the thread is closed.

RULES READ THEM OR I SWEAR TO GOD

• All posts should be presented with reasoning. NO flavor-based logic will be tolerated.
• It is the responsibility of each user to check the OP before making any post in the thread, so as to stay relevant.
• Posting lists of moves is strictly prohibited, even with explanations. Do not copy the TL's list, and then add "Yes/No" or a similarly worthless comment, beside each one.
• The Topic Leader is the sole arbiter for determining "general community consensus". The TL may ignore arguments for or against certain moves, if they feel the argument is not presented with sufficient evidence or reasoning. Do not assume that the existence of a few dissenting posts will ensure that a move will be categorized as controversial.
• Non-competitive moves should not be discussed in this thread, unless you feel they are incorrectly categorized and should be considered competitive. In this case, you can post reasoned arguments in this thread.

Mollux so far:

Concept: Extreme Makeover: Typing Edition

---

Originally Posted by Fat Theorymon

Name: Extreme Makeover: Typing Edition

General Description: The idea here is to create a Pokemon who's typing, while normally considered poor defensively and/or offensively, becomes a strong selling point of the Pokemon itself via help from an ability, stats, and/or movepool.

Justification: There are a lot of typings we scoff at on a daily basis because of their serious flaws, often forgetting about their strong points. For example, Poison is a really terrible offensive typing, but a decent defensive typing, while the Ice typing is good offensively, but awful defensively. Instead of just accepting that some typings will just ruin a Pokemon, this CAP concept aims to take that "terrible typing", and find ways to fix it (usually via ability, movepool, or stats) to the point where the formerly terrible typing becomes the CAP's strong point! The reason this CAP could benefit OU is because a Pokemon who makes a "bad typing" into a great one could find many unique offensive and/or defensive niches that aren't currently found!

Questions To Be Answered

-What does it take for a Pokemon to overcome its "bad typing" so much that its typing becomes good? Are the stats the biggest contributer, is the ability the thing that saves it, does movepool make it a force, or is it a combination of the above?

-How does the typing makeover effect the Pokemon's playstyle? Does the Pokemon become a unique wall that uses its makeover to overcome its typing's normally fatal flaws, does the make over make a terrible offensive typing into a fearsome sweeper, does the makeover make it into a formidible combination of deffense and offense to a typing that brings it neither, or does the makeover bring forth something none of us see coming from the typing?

-Which resistances and immunities are the most relevant to the metagame? Sure, this concept is aiming to have a "bad typing" become good, but part of that will require the bad typing to have some key resistances and/or immunties to certain typings to defend against or set up on, while still having a very unorthodox competitive typing. This works the other way around too, what are the typings most relevant to hit super effectively or at least neutral?

-How will the rest of the OU metagame react to this extreme type makeover? Will Pokemon start carrying moves they normally wouldn't carry to break through a new defensive threat, will some Pokemon take on new defensive roles due to resisting the unorthodox STABs CAP 3 may carry? Or will This Pokemon, despite being a very real threat, not have many "custom made sets" to beat it, being more of a Pokemon that is a reaction to the metagame than causing a metagame reaction?

-Finally, how will this effect the teams CAP3 is on? Will this be the kind of Pokemon who needs a lot of support to become a threat, will this Pokemon be more of key team member to execute another strategy, or will this be the kind of Pokemon that's part of the glue that holds the team together?

Typing: Fire / Poison
Base stats: 95 HP / 45 Atk / 83 Def / 131 SpA / 105 SpD / 76 Spe
Abilities: Dry Skin / Illuminate

[Deck Knight]

Here are my initial lists for dicussion:

Coverage Moves:

I am thinking specifically for this, the following notions are in order:

Thunder but not Thunderbolt. (Changed)

This makes Mollux very good in Rain, but not in any other weather, and is especially detrimental in Sun and Sandstorm. This does have precedence in Reuniclus.

Solarbeam but no other Grass coverage.

This is fairly common among Fire-types, but it means that Mollux uses this attack best in Sunlight, but not Rain or Sand.

Scald but no (or little) other Water coverage. (Changed)

Emboar has Scald (among a few other weird Gen 5 mons like Stunfisk) but it fits in quite well with Mollux flavorwise and aids it in Rain attacking. It should be noted that most counters fear burns in general, but Mollux will presumably have Lava Plume, so the 30% chance is there. What this does is ensures Mollux has an answer to Defensive Heatran while still falling to Offensive Heatran.

Acid Spray as a competitive move:

40 BP -2 SpD with STAB off 131 SpA isn't going to net a lot of 2HKO's by itself (3HKO's are a vastly different matter), but Acid Spray + another special attack nets a huge number of KO's. For example, if SpDToed switches into Acid Spray it gets summarily KO'd by Thunder. If Tyranitar switches into Acid Spray it gets summarily KO'd by HP Fighting. Basically if the target is slower and hit by Acid Spray as it comes in, and you can cover it, it will be KO'd before it can damage Mollux. Acid Spray puts such intense pressure on Rain Stall by forcing switches its value can't be denied.

Physical Attacks:

Physical Attacks in general are laughably weak on Mollux, so a fair few ones that could, in theory be used with something crazy like Shell Smash or whatever will be added just for clarity's sake. They will be considered competitive later should such a scenario arise in a movepool.

Pending List:

My initial pending list will include weaker attacks that work quite well with Acid Spray and offer additional coverage. I will also entertain a few other attacking moves there for your discussion. In general I would like to cull coverage down to the core, however I want opinions as to whether they should be allowed or disallowed. I don't want many moves to distract from the concept.

As such, here are my initial lists:

Required:
Acid Spray
Hidden Power
Lava Plume
Solarbeam

Allowed:
Hurricane same set exclusive with Thunder
Charge Beam
Eruption
Final Gambit
Fire Blast
Flamethrower
Flare Blitz
Gunk Shot
Octazooka
Overheat
Mud Shot
Poison Jab
Power Gem
Power Whip
Heat Wave
Razor Shell
Signal Beam
Sludge Bomb
Sludge Wave
Thunder
Thunderbolt
Venoshock
Waterfall

Pending:

Disallowed:
Volt Switch
Energy Ball
Giga Drain
Grass Knot
Leaf Tornado
Leaf Storm
Magical Leaf
Petal Dance
Hydro Pump
Muddy Water
Scald
Surf
Water Spout
Bug Buzz
Earth Power
Mud Bomb
Special Dark Moves
Special Dragon Moves
Special Fighting Moves
Special Ghost Moves
Special Ice Moves
Special Psychic Moves
Special Steel Moves
Special Water Moves

Controversial:

[capefeather]

I disagree with disallowing Thunderbolt. This would have been relevant on a weather starter, where it could scare Politoed from even switching into it (I'm only saying this because I'm aware that this idea was conceived in the context of Drought). However, there is no particular reason I can see for doing this now. Allowing only Thunder would only serve to pigeonhole CAP 3 into rain teams, and reduce its viability on weatherless teams, particularly versus non-rain teams.

I would say I see no particular reason to disallow Giga Drain, since it's just 15/14 north of Hidden Power Grass. However, considering we apparently hold Terrakion so sacred that just about anything stronger than resisted sun-boosted Fire Blast (135 effective power) is a no-no, I'd understand if Giga Drain were still disallowed in the end.

I believed for a while that Eruption would be too trolly to allow on Mollux, but now I've warmed up to it. It would have a strange but interesting relationship with Dry Skin, being the strongest STAB it could wield above 4/5 HP, but being weakened by rain at the same time. The interesting thing is that it would still be fairly strong at 112.5 maximum effective power in rain, and of course it has 100% accuracy.

Along the same lines, I'd like to bring up a move that is not on the list, but could be considered a worthwhile competitive attacking move: Final Gambit. Without assuming too much in the way of non-attacking moves, it's unlikely to make much out of it, but it's there and it has a very similar relationship to Dry Skin as Eruption. Plus, Mollux does have 95 Base HP. It's worth looking at, in my opinion.

[SunnyE]

Weather Ball a base 100 water move in the rain, a base 100 fire move in the sun, make for a great move that can be used for two different purposes. In the rain, access to a base 100 water move helps Mollux take out Deffensive Heatran and Donphan, which both have a chance to OHKO back with earth power (unlikely, but possible) and earthquake respectively. In the Sun, Weather Ball becomes a reliable, strong STAB move, which is always good.

other than that, I'd like to mention that Acid Spray is clearly not an attacking move, once that it's main purpose is to decrease the oposing pokemon's s. defense, so I don't know why deck mentioned it in his post...

[Deck Knight]

Acid Spray given these stats is like an offense-oriented version of easing prediction, kind of like Substitute but more focused on increasing costs for multiple switches rather than getting one attack off guaranteed before you have to switch.

Say you have a bulky Pokemon that barely avoids a 2HKO from Fire Blast because of Leftovers. If you Fire Blast, you can't follow up with a KO unless you get a lucky burn. If you Acid Spray, not only does the foe take damage, Fire Blast can now deliver a follow-up KO because of the SpD Drop. Your opponent can thus either switch or make the sacrifice.

As I said in the OP, Acid Spray is not great at generating its own 2HKOs, but it supports every other attack on the set, and if you're facing a stall team, Acid Spray wears down an opponent quickly. Acid Spray's damage output geometrically increases as it hits the same target. If it does 60 damage the first time, it does 120 (-2) the second time, 180 (-4) the third time, and 240 (-6) for all subsequent uses if the foe does not switch out. Combined with the fact Dry Skin's Rain healing is 12% and Life Orb's damage is 10%, it's quite easy to run a Rain Life Orb set using Acid Spray to soften opponents up and your other moves to finish. It's actually an exemplary use of STAB, since ordinarily Acid Spray would be like a 100% Accurate, Taunt-proof version of Fake Tears. STAB and 131 SpA make it a threat in its own right to stall teams, and an offensive supporter for every other move on the set.

In this case its primary means is damage: It brings foes well into KO ranges for all its other attacks, in addition to breaking any stall stalemate it would otherwise be up against. Blissey walls plenty of Special attackers with 130 or so SpA, it can't wall Mollux, and if it switches out after the first Acid Spray, whatever comes in next isn't getting in for free either - unless it's a Steel-type, which plays a dangerous game of coming into STAB Fire Blast in just such a scenario. It's quite elegant in my opinion, and adheres to the concept beautifully.

[srk1214]

Initial impressions:

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

Thunder but not Thunderbolt.

I am absolutely fine with both being allowed.

Solarbeam but no other Grass coverage.

I fully agree with this.

Scald but no (or little) other Water coverage.

I agree with this in terms of competitive coverage. Waterfall for example, might be appropriate, but is hardly competitive off of Mollux's attack stat. Anything weaker than Scald wouldn't be used anyway, so this basically is restricting Surf and Hydro Pump only.

Acid Spray as a competitive move:

Fully agree on this as well.

Physical Attacks:

Also agree. Even explosion is no worry from a strength standpoint on Mollux's attack. Shell Smash or the like might affect this, though, I suppose.

Also, I see no reason for Signal Beam not to be moved to Allowed. It is largely irrelevant on Mollux, with the only advantage gained being against Psychics. Reuniclus sets up in Mollux's face most likely, while Zam outspeeds and demolishes. Yes, that still leaves Starmie, but we're supposed to be beating non-Psychic/shock Starmie anyway. The only thing left really are the Latis and I don't know if that's enough to warrant barring Signal Beam.

[SunnyE]

how is "much like substitute" an argument that acid spray is an attacking move?

just because it is offensive, doesn't mean it's an attacking move, look at Rapid Spin.

the only reason Acid Spray would be used is for the Special Defense drop, since Sludge Wave is more than twice as powerful of an attacking move. If the main reason a move is used is NOT to do damage, it is NOT an attacking move. therefore, it shouldn't be mentioned as of yet.

"As I said in the OP, Acid Spray is not great at generating its own 2HKOs, but it supports every other attack on the set,[...]"
exactly, it SUPPORTS every other attack, it's a SUPPORTING move, not an attacking one.

[SubwayJ]

If we don't allow Giga Drain I believe Mega Drain should be an option, It gives an alternative grass attack and decent recovery with such high SpAtk, but not a very high BAP.

Other than that, I disagree with allowing weather ball, as it in rain, defeats most of our threats

I would also like to suggest a Special Equivalent to Elemental Fangs. I know as of now Ice Moves are disallowed, but Elemental fangs have quite low BAP in exchange for a little more coverage. It has superior Electric attack in rain but maybe to be safe outside it and not be overpowered. Ice would give it a little more coverage in exchange for it being low BAP. The fire one would just be because we'd make the whole trio.

Just a thought...

EDIT: While it may have been frowned upon in IRC, I think we should consider Fiery Dance! It allows for a solid attacking option, but not overpowered as Mollux is mostly going to be used in rain anyways! It also gives a gamble to players as to whether you want the immediate power from flamethrower, or a possible boost!

Please Consider this! (And to those who say its exclusive, look at Necturna, we gave it Horn Leech)

[psykokitty]

I think we should allow Hex, but disallow Dark Pulse, Shadow Ball, & Signal Beam. I feel that the stronger moves would allow Mollux to dominate Reuniclus (since it outspeeds the green jello-mon) and threaten Lati@s more than we intended it to during the threat discussion. Hex, on the other hand, would require at least two turns to become a better choice than Hidden Power Ghost, since we don't have any abilities that inflict status and would have to rely on Scald, Flamethrower, Lava Plume, etc (or a non-attacking move, but I'm gonna try not to polljump) to inflict a status for us.

EDIT: Whoa, while I was writing that more posts appeared! I've got to agree with Subway J and say that we should disallow Weather Ball. In rain, we get a 100 BP special water attack with a weather boost, which undermines the effort to keep Mollux's water coverage at Scald-level or lower. If we allow Weather Ball, we may as well allow Surf too, and then as Subway J points out, Mollux can threaten a whole bunch of things that are supposed to threaten it.

[The Reptile]

Originally Posted by Fat SunnyE

how is "much like substitute" an argument that acid spray is an attacking move?

just because it is offensive, doesn't mean it's an attacking move, look at Rapid Spin.

the only reason Acid Spray would be used is for the Special Defense drop, since Sludge Wave is more than twice as powerful of an attacking move. If the main reason a move is used is NOT to do damage, it is NOT an attacking move. therefore, it shouldn't be mentioned as of yet.

"As I said in the OP, Acid Spray is not great at generating its own 2HKOs, but it supports every other attack on the set,[...]"
exactly, it SUPPORTS every other attack, it's a SUPPORTING move, not an attacking one.

Actually, from a technical standpoint, both Rapid Spin and Acid Spray are attacking moves, as they attack in order to achieve their effect. If this was an "offensive moves discussion" you would be completely right, as Acid Spray is a move used for support, however, this is not the case.

As for Shadow Ball / Signal Beam / Dark Pulse, all of these moves have very niche coverage (mainly Psychic, who probably won't enjoy taking a STAB move anyways). Shadow Ball and Dark Pulse both hit Jellicent SE (and other ghost, but Jelli is the only one that resist our dual STAB), while Signal Beam hits TTar SE (although HP Fighting is much better for this imo). Allowing them as options really don't affect anything too much, except for hitting Psychics or for niche coverage.

Also, I think Thunderbolt should be allowed, as it allows us to hit almost all of the water-types for reliable SE damage outside of Rain without having to waste out Hidden Power on HP Electric / Grass or use Charge Beam (assuming it gets it, of course). The only reason not to add it is to make Mollux 100% dependent on Rain.

[srk1214]

I would just like to remind everyone that against a Psychic type, Sludge Wave is effective 143 power and Signal Beam is only 150.

We don't need to worry about Signal Beam breaking through Psychics anymore than we were worried about HP Ghost on Tomohawk here http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...94&postcount=5

Not quite sure if this extends to Dark Pulse and Shadow Ball though, since they are stronger, and also notably hit Ghosts.

[SunnyE]

Originally Posted by Fat capefeather

An attacking move is a move that deals damage to an opponent as its main purpose or one of its main purposes.

did you read this, The Reptile?

Also, I agree with SubwayJ on the Mega Drain, though I think it might be too weak to be pulled off, since 40 BAP is so low, and HP Grass is so much more powerful. Another option could be Magical Leaf, which has base 60, doesn't miss, and has no other effects. I don't know how it would work flavor-wise, but from a strictly competitive view, it could work...

As for Fiery Dance, I'm opposed to it, since it is already a high BAP, gets STAB, and the effect is way to good as to it might make a Choice Scarf+Fiery Dace+Illuminate in the sun a set that get's spam, and in my opinion, we should make Mollux's move set as versatile as possible, so that it can go many different ways playstyle-wise

[The Reptile]

(note that I am using no item but 252 SpAtk without a boosting nature. This is not to show how powerful it is, but to show the difference in power between Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball and our STABs. It's also because I'm lazy and didn't notice until after I got all the calcs that I had no item/no boosting nature)

252 SpAtk Mollux Fire Blast vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Reuniclus: 53.3% - 62.97% (2 hits to KO)
252 SpAtk Mollux Dark Pulse vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Reuniclus: 47.64% - 56.13% (2-3 hits to KO)
252 SpAtk Mollux Lava Plume vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Reuniclus: 35.61% - 41.98% (3 hits to KO)
252 SpAtk Mollux Flamethrower vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Reuniclus: 41.98% - 49.76% (3 hits to KO)
252 SpAtk Mollux Sludge Wave vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Reuniclus: 41.98% - 49.76% (3 hits to KO)
252 SpAtk Mollux Signal Beam vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Reuniclus: 44.81% - 52.83% (2-3 hits to KO)

Dark Pulse (and Shadow Ball) do less than Fire Blast but more than Lava Plume on any psychic-type that doesn't resist Fire (so all of them bar Starmie and Lati@s) Sludge Wave and Flamethrower are also doing slightly less than Dark Pulse (and Shadow Ball).

Again, this is not to see what we do to Reuniclus but to compare damage of all of these moves with our STABs. Notable, it's not that much powerful, the only notable targets of Dark Pulse / Shadow Ball is Jellicent (who can't really touch us unless it runs Shadow Ball)

Signal Beam is weaker but hits TTar and can't hit Jellicent.

For this reason, I believe there is nothing to lose by adding Dark Pulse, Shadow Ball, or Signal Beam.

EDIT: Added Signal Beam. Again, slightly stronger, but no real coverage bar psychics and TTar.


@SunnyE: I was referring from a technical stand-point (attacking moves tend to involve, you know, attacking) and did not see the mention of definition in the OP, my bad (imo, we should rename it to offensive moves rather than attacking moves). Yeah, Acid Spray probably should be discussed in Support Moves.

[Rakfa]

I am so in love with the idea of Acid Spray! I can just see Mollux laughing in the face of walls after the -2 special defense drop.

I also disagree with Weather Ball suggested by Sunny as that kind of psuedo-STAB coverage under the rain along with a massive special attack is going to KO or at least put a huge dent in a lot of things that Mollux is supposed to be threatened by.

Finally, I love the idea of Fiery Dance from SubwayJ! That random special attack boost can wreak havoc even under the rain.

Edit: Oops, I guess I missed Charge Beam on my initial skim through. Having read the criticisms opposed to it, Fiery Dance probably is a little too powerful. Long live Charge Beam!

[The Reptile]

I think Fiery Dance is too much for Mollux. We already have a pretty amazing base 131 SpAtk, and having the chance to raise it every time we use our Fire STAB seems like overkill. If we use a move that boost our SpAtk while also doing damage (a lot of damage might I add), I think Charge Beam is the way to go (as we can't really spam a nonSTAB base 50 BP move, but we can use it to hit Water-types while potentially boosting ourselves)

[Scoopapa]

I think that the Special Flying Moves should be allowed, particularly Hurricane. None of the pokemon on our "threatened by" list are weak to Flying, and all of them are hit harder by either Scald or Poison STAB. Even though Hurricane doesn't help us too much with our "threatens" list, it does cover Fighting-types. The main issue with Mollux and Fighting-types really is the fact that they all get Stone Edge and most of them can use it well in situations other than hitting Mollux. However, Fighting-types aren't something that ought to counter us (other than Terrakion); we've just been held back by the reality of Stone Edge. Hurricane is basically the perfect move for CAP3 to be able to fight back against Fighting-types. It needs Rain support, hits all of them hard except for Terrakion, and isn't weak like Psychic or Air Slash.

Hurricane probably wouldn't even be one of the primary moves that Mollux puts in it's sets, since it will have a lot of moves competing for it's attention with Scald, Thunder, dual STAB, Acid Spray, and possibly some non-attacking moves (at least Protect and Substitute) all being extremely tempting. Additionally, Stone Edge is still a threat and so countering Fighting-types with Hurricane will still take some finesse. Still, I really think Mollux should have the chance to run strong coverage against Fighting if it chooses to; it only helps against enemies whose STAB we resist, which very much fits with the concept.

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat SunnyE

how is "much like substitute" an argument that acid spray is an attacking move?

just because it is offensive, doesn't mean it's an attacking move, look at Rapid Spin.

the only reason Acid Spray would be used is for the Special Defense drop, since Sludge Wave is more than twice as powerful of an attacking move. If the main reason a move is used is NOT to do damage, it is NOT an attacking move. therefore, it shouldn't be mentioned as of yet.

"As I said in the OP, Acid Spray is not great at generating its own 2HKOs, but it supports every other attack on the set,[...]"
exactly, it SUPPORTS every other attack, it's a SUPPORTING move, not an attacking one.

Rapid Spin never puts anything into KO Range for anything else, And Fake Tears/Metal Sound don't have the damage element so they won't turn a 3HKO into a 2HKO. Acid Spray does that because of the damage it deals, so in essence it is both. I'm putting it here because you can't polljump to supporting moves, and the damage is significant. It's pretty bad against Tentacruel, Blissey, and TTar from a damage alone perspective I admit, but LO 252 SpA Timid it does 16-19% to SpDToed , and 30.5-36.1% to Bulky Attacker Rotom-W. It really falls inbetween the crack of direct support and direct attacking, but it will be on the move list anyway because it does so well for the concept. For example Acid Spray actually does 2HKO Tornadus, and can even do so if Tornadus switches in twice if it takes Life Orb Damage from Modest, or switches into SR once.

Basically it's one of those few times where a move can be supportive but also net its own 2HKOs against opponents with weaker defenses. Anything it does a minumum of 35% to is a guaranteed 2HKO. Now, Tornadus has 79/70/70 Defenses and is 2HKO'd, so Haxorus is also 2HKO'd. Breloom is actually OHKO'd by Acid Spray, Celebi and Virizion are 2HKO'd, Starmie is 2HKO'd. - These are, again, Timid Calcs if you need a Speed reference.

Basically what I'm saying is, Acid Spray is actually strong enough under normal conditions where you might use it over Sludge Wave, because Sludge Wave can't combine into KOs or break a stall, and Acid Spray actually can net 2HKO's on Pokemon we want Mollux to threaten.

Ex. Neutral Acid Spray + Fire Blast = 40 + 240 = 280. Sludge Wave + Fire Blast = 95 + 120 = 215.

Ex. Resisted Acid Spray + SE Fire Blast (Mamoswine fits) = 20 + 480 = 500, Sludge Wave + Fire Blast = 47.5 + 240 = 287.5

So if the definition for a damaging move is "can net relevant 2HKO's in OU under reasonable battle conditions," Acid Spray does fit that definition. The threats in question aren't defensive juggernauts (except 2 of them weak to Poison lol), but that hardly matters. After All: Neutral Acid Spray and Lava Plume in Rain have the same Base Power. If the definition is "would I use this attack on a set over a comparable competitive option with higher Base Power for any reason" then the answer, at least for me, is also yes.

EDIT: Ultimately what I want to do with this concept is try and answer "under what conditions would Mollux (CAP3) ever use Poison STAB" , and thanks to Dusk's stats and the ability we've selected, I can answer with confidence "if that Poison STAB is strong enough to deliver relevant 2HKO's on neutral or weak targets, and if in so using that STAB then any other STAB and coverage move would benefit from it."

I would not often for example take the risk on Sludge Wave if I thought Lava Plume or Flamethrower could deliver the same KO, and in all likelihood they could: Fire is infinitely better offensively than Poison and even hits the same targets for super-effective damage. If faced with a situation where I needed to ease prediction, ordinarily I'd go to Substitute, except there are instances where I'd still lose momentum. Acid Spray does a great deal for keeping momentum, and is much better in realistic scenarios then having a Poison-typed Flamethrower clone.

I think I love this Calc the most:

Timid 252 LO Acid Spray vs. Standard TTar (252/64/192) in SS: 5.2-6.4%
Timid 252 LO HP Fighting vs. Standard TTar (252/64/102) in SS (-2SpD): 100-117.8%

[Jukain]

Acid Spray - I agree with what has been posted here about this, it is great for Mollux to take on walls and get easy 2HKO's
Lava Plume - I would love to see this, simply because it would be such an asset to defensive sets
Scald - same as Lava Plume, and Water-type coverage is awesome
Fiery Dance - sounds good as an offensive boosting option

Just thoughts on a few things.

[nyttyn]

I think flare blitz should be really low on priroirty due to it being borderline pointess with Mollux's low attacking stat.

I believe that Thunderbolt should be allowed on Mollux, as it's whole niche is countering water types, and without a reliable grass move to do that with outside of HP grass, I believe that having a reliable electric type attack will go a long way for Mollux.

Clear Smog, I feel, would have a interesting niche on Mollux as giving him a haze that still does a decent chunk of damage coming off of 50 BP. Scizor and Lucario are the only common boosters immune to it, but neither of them will enjoy eating Mollux's fire STABs. I think that out of all the moves not listed, Clear Smog is easily the overlooked option that could have great utility in the current metagame.

I think it should get Hyper Beam as hyper beam is the best move ok.

Finally, with the possibility that Mollux may not get a speed boosting status move in mind, I think Flame Charge, while slightly gimmicky, would serve well to give Mollux a reliable way to boost its speed, abusing the fact that fire type forces many switches to obtain a +1 speed boost.

edit: why is kill everything one of the forum tags.

also where's my anime chicks.

[psykokitty]

Originally Posted by Fat The Reptile

Dark Pulse (and Shadow Ball) do less than Fire Blast but more than Lava Plume on any psychic-type that doesn't resist Fire.

Thanks for running the calculations! I've been having some connectivity problems so my previous post was made without them.

The quoted statement just strengthens my conviction that Dark Pulse and Shadow Ball should be disallowed, since they overpower Lava Plume, Flamethrower, and Sludge Wave (albeit marginally, but battles can be won by margins) on psychics that aren't weak to one of Mollux's STABs. [I personally don't like using Fire Blast because of the low PP and accuracy check, but that's just me not caring that it still overpowers the moves under scrutiny]. I also forgot about Jellicent when I made my original post, and would very likely have used it rather than Reuniclus as my example pokemon for what Mollux would threaten with these moves.

As for Signal Beam, I guess the arguments being made are pulling me closer to neutrality on this one. I still don't like the idea of getting a SE hit on the latis without having to work for it (ie, Hex), but then again, Signal Beam is only slightly better than a SE Hidden Power...

[Rising_Dusk]

Scald should not be mandatory on this Pokemon's movepool. In-fact, Scald should be entirely absent from CAP 3's movepool. Scald should be disallowed.

Water-type coverage arguably holds no merits for CAP 3 outside getting pseudo-STAB in rain. It achieves very little, too, besides making it very, very difficult for almost all of CAP 3's threats to switch in. Seriously, let's look: Terrakion, Landorus, Dugtrio, and Gliscor are all OHKOed by CAP 3 getting pseudo-Water STAB, and Heatran is cleanly 2HKOed. Tyranitar survives by a lot, but let's look at calcs for everything else, which, may I remind you, makes up almost the entirety of our threats list.

Let's keep in mind that these calculations are with Leftovers as CAP 3's item. That means that these numbers also represent Choice Scarf numbers... And you don't want to see what the numbers look like with a damage-boosting item. (Trust me)

252 Modest Leftovers CAP 3 (80bp Water Special)

• vs. 252/0 Impish Gliscor: 103.4% - 122%
• vs. Jolly Landorus: 109.7% - 129.2% (Not even Naive!)
• vs. 4/0 Jolly Terrakion: 109.4% - 128.8%
• vs. 4/0 Jolly Focus Sash Dugtrio: 182.1% - 215.1% (30% to OHKO through Focus Sash and without hazards thanks to Scald's burn)
• vs. 248/252 Calm Leftovers Heatran: 52.5% - 61.8% (SpD Bulky)
• vs. 0/4 Modest Air Balloon Heatran: 84.8% - 100.3% (Stealth Rock or one layer of Spikes if no balloon does this in for good)

So, uh, yeah! Everything that is supposed to threaten CAP 3 cannot switch into it safely! The only 'safe' switch-in is them thar Tyranitar (unsurprisingly). Now there's of course all of those arguments about 'prediction' and what-not, since if CAP 3 doesn't catch them on the switch they win, but this is all irrelevant. Ask yourself this: "Why do you want CAP 3 to have Scald?" There is no good answer competitively besides "To defeat as many of its supposed threats as possible".. and that is unacceptable. Let CAP 3 be threatened by these Pokemon; don't allow it to run through them with but a single move's coverage. I know Scald's cool for flavor, but this is a competitive project. Please, think of the children.



...P.S. Acid Spray isn't an attacking move. Sorry, Deck.
You've got some fancy voodoo in your post, but your post even confirms by its very nature that you're using Acid Spray as a supporting move, not as an attacking move.

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

Solarbeam but no other Grass coverage.

I fully agree with this. Part of the reason a while back that I game my own stat spread submission such low Special Attack was because I originally didn't even want it to be able to viably use Hidden Power (Grass). The problem with giving Mollux any good Grass coverage moves is because Grass is the attack type simultaneously supper effective against the Water types that we want Mollux to deal with and the Rock and Ground types that we want to deal with Mollux. That seems far too dangerous of a combination to me. Solar Beam alone is acceptable because of how horrid it is anywhere outside of sun, which we don't want Mollux in because of Dry Skin.

Thunder but not Thunderbolt.

This, however, I'm not quite as sure about. Grass and Electric are the only types super effective against our watery victims, so if we rule our Grass for potentially being too dangerous to Rock/Ground Pokemon, that only leave Electric as a go-to attack type against Water. Yeah, Thunder will be fantastic if we're in rain, but Mollux should still be able to consistently threaten Water-types even outside of rain.

EDIT: Removed my possible approval of Scald. Rising_Dusk makes a very compelling argument against it.

[fourkings8414]

Venoshock- With proper support, Mollux could potentially have strong STAB options in Fire Blast and Venshock, 120 BP and a 130 BP respectively. Being a fire-type, Mollux would have Steel types thinking twice before switching in making the poison typing a very reliable attacking option (except against Heatran and, of course, those whom resist poison). It should be very effective in netting KO's with the prerequisite poison/toxic status along with other forms of residual damage.

Acid Spray- I support Acid Spray a lot. One reason I supported the poison-typing was for the great utility moves it provides for the team. DK's posts are plenty enough for explanation. Though RD said that this is not an attacking move, I think the damage dealt from it is significant enough to make some difference calculations with, say, Flamethrower especially if they resist fire.

Mud Shot- I really love that DK had this listed already since this is one I wanted to bring up prior to the opening of this thread. Let's face it, Base 76 speed is not outspeeding the big threats out there. Having some way to become 'faster' would be great. Mud Shot would allow us to possibly 2HKO Heatran while also giving some of our threats a thing to think about other than burn while also dealing a fair amount of damage.

In the same vein of thought, I would like Icy Wind to be reconsidered in order to damage Dragons in this way. All the dragons outspeed us and they would be difficult to deal with without some kind of utility. Using Icy Wind on a predicted switch would then allow us to outspeed and possibly hit with a neutral poison attack for decent damage, maybe even a KO with residual damage since Icy Wind brought them in range. I do see this being compared to Acid Spray, however, in damage output and forcing switches. Also, Icy WInd does threaten the Ground-types in our threats list :/ Logic here can apply to Mud Shot but with different types.

As far as type coverage moves goes, I'm not a big fan of giving a huge list of types that allow Mollux to net SE hits. The neutral coverage provided by Fire and Poison are plenty, and as RD has posted, even Scald is netting some significant KO's. Thunderbolt deals some hefty damage though that may be welcomed since they hit water types so well.

[The Reptile]

^ The problem with Icy Wind is that we want to be threatened by Dragonite, which is hit by Icy Wind 4x SE and lowers it's speed (not sure if we outspeed Dragonite at -1).

Calcs (Lefties):

252 SpAtk Mollux (+SpAtk) Icy Wind vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Multiscale Dragonite: 34.72% - 40.93% (3-4 hits to KO)
252 SpAtk Mollux (+SpAtk) Icy Wind vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Dragonite: 69.43% - 81.87% (2 hits to KO)

We 2HKO with or without Multiscale (SR can even give us a OHKO if we get a high roll. Also, this is assuming Bulky DD). Icy Wind has no place in Mollux's movepool.

[jas61292]

So, I was going to make a long post about how Scald serves no good purpose for this CAP, but Rising Dusk beat me to it. As he showed with his calcs, it only serves to let Mollux destroy those who we chose as counters. Honestly, outside of the whole flavor thing of a fire type in rain, I see no good reason to give Scald to this Pokemon. Even as a Pokemon in rain we want it to lose to Rock and Ground types. There is no good reason to give it a move that defeats these counters effortlessly without doing anything against the things we actually want to threaten. Basically, what I am thinking is that Scald, along with all other water moves of competitive merit, should be disallowed.

Additionally, I would like to agree with capefeather on allowing Thunderbolt. There is really no reason not to allow it when we are giving it Thunder. There is no Pokemon we want to be threatened by that Thunderbolt helps against more than Thunder, and so there is no real reason to allow one and not the other. If anything, we should be considering disallowing the more powerful option, not the weaker one. However, I believe both are good ways to threaten what we want to threaten, and should both be allowed.

I also agree wholeheartedly on allowing only SolarBeam for grass coverage. Its a fire necessity, and can be cool for sun, but unreliable and not worth it most of the time. Grass beats most of its counters, so we should not encourage it very much outside this one option.

I don't have very strong opinions on much else as of now, and I am quite tired, but I will weigh in again in the morning on some of the other stuff.