CAP 3 - Part 11 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

[MCBarrett]

I say allow recover and allow calm mind. These moves both play into mollux's strengths very well.

For recover I don't think that too much recovery is a viable argument as natural cure/hydration + rest is out there which is essentially 100% recovery and isn't anything too scary. Really this just allows mollux to stall better which I feel is probably what it's going to be doing. Also this improvement to his stalling ability makes toxic spikes a very good option which also allows venoshock to be effective, giving focus to poison stab which is very important to the concept

And in regards to calm mind, it will allow mollux to become even more of a special tank if allowed to set up and will perform that role extremely well. This will also not be too powerful with mollux's low speed and the fact that physical attackers can still force it out easily. That leads me to calling for rock polish to be disallowed as mollux's sweeping abilities would be frightening and I don't think that's where we should be going

[bugmaniacbob]

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

Screens are still off limits right now. Remember, the concept is to make the typing work for Mollux, and loading it up with highly competitive support makes it difficult to do that. One-offs with little synergy in and of themselves like hazards and spin are fine. Dual Screens takes up two slots and honestly I'm even thinking about other restrictions on things like Recover + Rapid Spin + Stealth Rock being illegal together. I'd like some feedback on this, because I don't think a set like Lava Plume/Stealth Rock/Rapid Spin/Recover fulfills the concept, but I'm not upset by Stealth Rock + Recover and Rapid Spin + Recover.

Certainly, but you can't measure the extent to which a Pokemon is using its typing entirely through what moves it is using. What I really like about dual screens is that the ONLY reason you would use it over other dual screeners is directly because of the typing - the fact that it can switch into both Steel-types (unlike the Psychic-types) and Fighting-types (unlike Magnezone), is a big plus - in fact there are a number of things that Mollux can switch into with relative impunity, as a direct result of its typing, even if it does render it susceptible to other Pokemon - coupled with the fact that its access to STAB Fire-type attacks gives it offensive presence without necessarily needing to invest in defensive stats, and a weapon with which to deter Taunt users. I would think it incorrect to suggest that a set of Reflect / Light Screen / Fire Blast / Acid Spray does not fulfil the concept, as it is rather like DS Virizion in that it is only being used for its typing, rather than for any other movepool-based benefit it may have (or at least, that's the hope).

In any case, I would have thought that dual screens were somewhat more pertinent to the concept than entry hazards and rapid spinning, for which it doesn't really have any advantages over those it's competing with besides typing (so I suppose you could make that argument, which is why I support them), wherein you are just sort of doing what you do without any great support from any of your other faculties. You're either Rapid Spinning, or you aren't (although I suppose that, as RD said, the ability to beat Jellicent puts it in a good place as far as rapid spinning is concerned... and on another note, all our CAPs this generation will have been Rapid Spinners, heh).

As far as limiting Recover + Rapid Spin + SR goes, my current movepool actually has that exact limitation, but I am not sure whether it is a great idea to force other movepool creators to do the same. As much as I think it is a good idea to limit these, I think that there is also a limit to how much one ought to dictate the finer points of the movepool, and there is nothing inherently wrong with having all three on the same set (other than it being, well, a terrible set, as it becomes both a bad Rapid Spinner and a bad wall).

[Pwnemon]

Making a case to put the speed boosters in allowed

Someone said earlier that Mollux resists all forms of priority. While this is not /entirely/ true as we have shadow sneak, Extremespeed, Sucker Punch, and Quick attack, it is for all intents and purposes an accurate statement. You can't kill mollux (easily) with any form of priority after it boosts up its speed. That makes it a perfect candidate to be a speed booster! Why doesn't Terrakion boost its speed? It's weak to priority. Why doesn't Mence usually boost its speed? It's weak to priority. Mollux cannot be priority buttraped. Its typing (cough cough) makes it a perfect candidate for speed boosting abuse.

at the same time, it would hardly be broken if it could boost its speed. the best it can muster is Electric/Ground/Fire coverage, and ask Flame Charge Heatran, that just isn't enough. A shortlist of mons that can beat mollux HP ground: Gastrodon/Tyranitar/blissey/dragonite/hydreigon/lati@s. If you give it HP grass, replace Gastro with Heatran and it's the same list the rest of the way. A speed boosting mollux would definitely add another dimension to this guy, and make him a top OU contender, but not borked

[srk1214]

Pwnemon, the difference is that Rock Polish et al are +2 not +1. If Heatran could run a +2 speed move, it would in a heartbeat. The fact of the matter is we shouldn't be giving Mollux the capability to run Rock Polish/Fire Blast/Octazooka/HP Ice. After getting a free Rock Polish up on the switch, Mollux would beat nearly all of its checks/counters. Alternatively, HP Grass could be used to beat Jellicent and Gastrodon but lose to Lati@s and Dragonite. Blissey/Chansey still handles all of these of course.

But in my opinion, under no circumstances should Mollux be able to remove Scarf Landorus from the category of being a check. +2 speed moves do that. So they've got to be out.

Also, really? CAP needs to end our fetish with giving things Rapid Spin. It has no business being on Mollux. Rapid Spin totally distracts from concept as far as I am concerned.

[Deck Knight]

I'd disagree with Rapid Spin being irrelevant to the CAP if only because it has a weakness to SR, and a Fire-type that can reliably rid the field of SR gets to use Fire's excellent resistances more effectively.

I think Flame Charge's +1 Spe Boost is sufficient if people really want to boost Speed. Now onto Calm Mind. I've been going back and forth, and I think I'll put it in allowed. Mollux is slow, but it can handle a lot of special attackers that way. The only real concern is that at +1 SpD I think it can survive Heatran Earth Powers and OHKO back with Mud Shot or HP Ground.

Yeah:

Naive 252 SpA ScarfTran EP to +1 0/4 Mollux: 74.9-89.4%. (Naive 252 LO 97.8-116%)

Timid LO 252 SpA +1 Mollux Mud Shot to Naive Scarftran: 153.6-180.8% (Octazooka does 90.4-106.5%, 135-159.1% in Rain) Any Super-Effective Hidden Power KO's.

Heatran needs Life Orb to OHKO +1 SpD Mollux, and that's if Mollux opts for no SpD investment. 252/4 CM Mollux withstands even Life Orb Earth Powers, though not after SR damage (82.2-97.5%).

[Red Riddler]

Not sure if Deck Knight's post means this is irrelevant now, but we could allow the boosting moves (+2 Speed and Calm Mind) but make them illegal with all relevant coverage. This means that a +2 or +1/+1 Molluxe only gets Fire/Poison/HP coverage. Still leaves it open to a reasonable amount of checks, e.g. Gliscor with HP Ground (even Heatran with an Air Balloon) and Heatran with HP Ice.

@ jack m: That was the idea. If the opponent has the wrong counters it's not completely useless, but it makes using boosting moves possible as opposed to just getting rid of them entirely.

Edit: Now that I think about it, limiting boosted coverage to STABs and Hidden Power would encourage the use of the typing. Not an excellent idea, but it lets us give Molluxe boosting moves without being overpowered.

[srk1214]

I guess my biggest fear about Rapid Spin is that Rapid Spin Mollux will singlehandedly beat Rain Stall. I mean that quite literally. Rain Stall teams often have no good way to handle Mollux already, but Rapid Spin just pushes it over the limit of being intolerable as far as I can tell.

[SunnyE]

I still think Calm Mind should be valid. OK, it makes Offensive Heatran -who was originally said to be a Check- a non-issue, but that's only one of the pokemon on our threat list, of which most are Physical. I don't think Calm Mind hinders Mollux's threats' abilities to threat Mollux too much.

As for the +2 speed boosters, That would be a bit too much, Flame Charge already boosts speed enough. Agility (or automize or rock polish) would allow Mollux to out-spped a LOT of stuff without much investment in speed, leaving it free to invest in both S.Atk and HP, making him a Bulky Sweeper, and OU has enough of those. I say Disallow it.

[jackm]

@ Red Riddler:

That makes it completely pointless to even give Mollux the moves in the first place.

@ Red Riddle, #2:

Why would anyone use them, though, if there isn't a sufficient way to abuse them? Seems to me that there would always be a better choice. I don't see how that takes advantage of the typing.

[Pwnemon]

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

I'd disagree with Rapid Spin being irrelevant to the CAP if only because it has a weakness to SR, and a Fire-type that can reliably rid the field of SR gets to use Fire's excellent resistances more effectively.

the thing is a spinner itself doesn't get the advantage of having rocks/spikes off the field (unless you're some sort of retard who sets up hazards in front of a spinner i guess but then your opponent doesn't need a spinner to beat you lol.) they take the hazard damage on the switch-in; only their teammates get the advantage if they've got the sr-weak typing. This is why things like Starmie, Donphan, Hitmontop, Tentacruel and Forretress are top-tier spinners while Torkoal, Delibird, and Cryogonal are not. The only case one could make grounded in logic for giving cap3 Rapid Spin is that it has a unique niche in being able to switch into common sr setters (like tomo could) or that it can break most common spinblockers (like soil could). But cap3 has neither of these qualities. The only reasons that one would give cap3 Rapid Spin is a) we like spinners! or b) more power = more good, but really neither sells me on the idea especially considering that cap3 would really make an exceptionally shitty spinner compared to some other roles it could take on.

[capefeather]

I like Rapid Spin in the way it interacts with Ghost-types. Gengar can't switch in on it, and Jellicent is going to have a really hard time actually beating Mollux, Thunder(bolt) or no (Tentacruel style).

I still don't get why the screens are disallowed. Even if the argument is made that they're irrelevant (which I think bugmaniacbob countered very nicely), it's not to the point that it distracts from the concept. Disallowing the screens would just get in the way of movepool flavour.

I don't think that limitations to support move combos are necessary. If anything, Mollux will have moveslot syndrome, and I'm not sure Stealth Rock + Rapid Spin would be all that effective for the two moveslots that they fill (leaving maybe Lava Plume and Recover for use). I think that moveslot syndrome is a defining weakness of Fire-types. We can use this "feature" to our advantage to help balance Mollux.

In that vein, I'd like to argue again to allow Thunder Wave. Now, I'll admit that this move is one of those moves that might kind of be pushing the boundary between terrible and terrifying. However, as it is, it's probably competing with a whole bunch of other great supporting moves (hell, maybe I'll actually use both Will-O-Wisp and Lava Plume), at which point you have almost no room for coverage moves at all. What would the moveset for a paralysis supporter be? Lava Plume / Thunder Wave / Recover / filler? I don't know if I'd really make a beeline for a coverage move for the filler, and even if I do, I can only account for a portion of the threat list. HP Ground? Grass? Ice?

I think the speed boosters could go either way, but I also think that they may be our best shot at a viable boosting move, other than maybe Imanalt's custom move, without going crazy with something like Shell Smash or Quiver Dance.

[nyttyn]

At the end of the day, this thing needs Agility. I'm sorry, but we've held back for far too long. Mollux does not have coverage, he does not have a great typing, he does not have a great ability. If we're going to give this conesnail any hope of being a relevant threat, it needs to be able to be both offensive and defensive, thus granting it a huge presence simply by existing on your team. If it lacks a reliable, great speed boosting move, it will not cut it I feel.

Or in other words

[Mari]

Originally Posted by Fat Temperantia

Heal Bell does little for CAP itself as Mollux is immune to 2 of the 4 most common status moves; however, it does further its role as a supporting pivot by allowing it to help its team out further. Heal Bell can only help Mollux find its way onto OU teams. Along with Recover, it can actually give CAP3 a niche in OU of an outstanding wall/cleric that can actually attack.

Sounds nice. Absorbing TSpikes/ switching in WOW and healing the party from its Poison/Burns. But wouldn't be it too weird? CAP3 is heavily based to be a special attacker. But Starmie is also spinning, however.

Originally Posted by Fat nyttn

At the end of the day, this thing needs Agility. I'm sorry, but we've held back for far too long. Mollux does not have coverage, he does not have a great typing, he does not have a great ability.

That's why I suggested Glare. I think Rock Polish/Agility/Shell Smash would be too powerful because of Mollux' high Special attack stat. Glare would fit much better IMO. Mollux has some slower checks who laugh about a speed boost. These include Chansey, Heatproof Bronzong, Claydol and Nidoqueen.

[Deck Knight]

Alright, this has been very productive. Take a gander at the huge Allowed list.

I've Allowed Light Screen and Thunder Wave and I am allowing phazing moves. I have declined the +2 boosters.

Now is a good time to issue a 24 hour warning. I think we've covered every significant move I can think of.

Since we're about to go into the final stages, I think I should share a bit about my vision:

Mollux is a bulky offensive pivot, not a sweeper.

Mollux's combination of type and ability make it an excellent answer to most Rain teams, and outside of Rain its Fire STAB backed by 131 SpA keeps large portions of Sand teams at bay.

Its ability to get free turns through its immunities to burn, poison, and water attacks, as well as its general bulk ideally situate it to set up hazards, remove them, or perform other light support duties for a team.

Mollux has several forms of reliable recovery, allowing it to maximize its pivoting duties. It has small but specifically allowed and tailored coverage so that it can perform its duties. It has very few high-powered moves, however it has a several moves that are situationally useful, should movepool submitters choose to include them.

Mollux is designed for pivot offense, not pure support.

While it does have potential access to several support options, it is not an all-in-one supporter. It can be a cleric, it can set up a Light Screen, it can swap an item, it can spin, and it can set up a hazard - but it shouldn't be doing more than two of these functions on any set, and optimally only doing one.

Mollux can strengthen its Special Defense more readily than its Physical Defense.

While Mollux can burn with Will-O-Wisp or increase its defense with Acid Armor, our Threats Discussion mentioned specifically physical threats as the top adversaries to Mollux. As such it can set up using Calm Mind to enhance its Special Defense, use Charge, or set up Light Screen. Most of Rain is comprised of Special Attackers, and Mollux is thusly more adept at facing them.

Now, you might disagree with my vision, but that's where I see Mollux going. It's not designed to set-up sweep, it's designed to use those defenses to pressure a certain playstyle using its type's resistances along with an ability to challenge the very foundations of that playstyle. How will Rain Stall (or even Rain Offense to a degree) adapt to a Pokemon built to tear it apart piece by piece? We'll find out.

[FlareBlitz]

Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

I'd disagree with Rapid Spin being irrelevant to the CAP if only because it has a weakness to SR, and a Fire-type that can reliably rid the field of SR gets to use Fire's excellent resistances more effectively.

I think Flame Charge's +1 Spe Boost is sufficient if people really want to boost Speed. Now onto Calm Mind. I've been going back and forth, and I think I'll put it in allowed. Mollux is slow, but it can handle a lot of special attackers that way. The only real concern is that at +1 SpD I think it can survive Heatran Earth Powers and OHKO back with Mud Shot or HP Ground.

Yeah:

Naive 252 SpA ScarfTran EP to +1 0/4 Mollux: 74.9-89.4%. (Naive 252 LO 97.8-116%)

Timid LO 252 SpA +1 Mollux Mud Shot to Naive Scarftran: 153.6-180.8% (Octazooka does 90.4-106.5%, 135-159.1% in Rain) Any Super-Effective Hidden Power KO's.

Heatran needs Life Orb to OHKO +1 SpD Mollux, and that's if Mollux opts for no SpD investment. 252/4 CM Mollux withstands even Life Orb Earth Powers, though not after SR damage (82.2-97.5%).

Since a Mollux with substitute can beat offensive Heatran just as easily as a Mollux with a +1 SpD under its belt, I would say that Calm Mind wouldn't be troublesome were it Allowed. The primary reason I like Calm Mind is so that we can actually do something with all those free turns we'll get from bulky waters - firing off powerful attacks is nice, but Calm Mind will let us play like a cross between Heatran and defensive Latias, a niche which seems very valuable and appealing - especially considering that the common specially-defensive mons found on rain stall and even sand stall can't actually beat this. At the same time, as I mentioned before, we are still very vulnerable on the physical side, being weak to common moves and SR, which, combined with coverage issues, largely balances the benefits of Calm Mind.

I support Rapid Spin and the hazards, too, for the same reason as Calm Mind - using those free turns productively.

[kjt]

Right, either most of you missed this or no one cares, but I'll suggest it again. Growth. Normally it's a Work-Up clone. Hoo-rah. But in sun it's a +2 boost to Attack and Special Attack. Mollux has CM for in the rain - it works well with Dry Skin and bulkiness in general - but I think sun-lovin' Mollux should get some toys to play with. Illuminate (because Dry Skin + Sun = no) Mollux could run Growth/Fire Blast/Solarbeam/something else. It would give Mollux some more versatility outside of the rain. Solarbeam and Eruption aren't allowed moves for nothing.

On another note, what do y'all think about Trick Room? It's a pseudo speed boosting move, sure, but it also allows Mollux to provide support to its team. Although it allows Mollux to out speed potential counter/checks/revenge killers (eg Heatran) we're also giving it the option of having Magnet Rise which lets it avoid moves that could take it out (EQ/EP).

Also a question. The restrictions so far are:

No Thunder + Hurricane
No SR + Toxic Spikes
No hazards + Rapid Spin + Recover

When we make movepools are we gonna have to think really carefully about what egg group we put Mollux into, or are we allowed to say "XYZ is Dream World only and illegitimate with ABC"? Because the latter would be quite a lot easier, ya know?

[Imanalt]

I just want to point out, if you want it to be a pivot perhaps u-turn would be beneficiary?
this is very good for a pivot, as you can switch in, do somehting for a turn or 2, then easily get back out. If we aren't giving this +2spe moves, it seems like it woudl fit...

[Deck Knight]

Originally Posted by Fat kjt

Right, either most of you missed this or no one cares, but I'll suggest it again. Growth. Normally it's a Work-Up clone. Hoo-rah. But in sun it's a +2 boost to Attack and Special Attack. Mollux has CM for in the rain - it works well with Dry Skin and bulkiness in general - but I think sun-lovin' Mollux should get some toys to play with. Illuminate (because Dry Skin + Sun = no) Mollux could run Growth/Fire Blast/Solarbeam/something else. It would give Mollux some more versatility outside of the rain. Solarbeam and Eruption aren't allowed moves for nothing.

On another note, what do y'all think about Trick Room? It's a pseudo speed boosting move, sure, but it also allows Mollux to provide support to its team. Although it allows Mollux to out speed potential counter/checks/revenge killers (eg Heatran) we're also giving it the option of having Magnet Rise which lets it avoid moves that could take it out (EQ/EP).

Also a question. The restrictions so far are:

No Thunder + Hurricane
No SR + Toxic Spikes
No hazards + Rapid Spin + Recover

When we make movepools are we gonna have to think really carefully about what egg group we put Mollux into, or are we allowed to say "XYZ is Dream World only and illegitimate with ABC"? Because the latter would be quite a lot easier, ya know?

Hurricane + Thunder still stands - and can be done with Fairy (Whimsicott / Buncha Fairies) or Bug (Volcarona / Galvantula) groups, but not Water 1 because Dragonite can get both, unless you make Thunder DW only exclusive to Hurricane or whatever. (Flying also works but lolflying, and Dragon and Field have the same problem as Water 1 (Draggy or Smeargle).

I got rid of the other two because of Egg Move Hell, but Hurricane exclusive of Thunder is quite doable and serves a true competitive purpose rather than my own setcasting wishes.

Originally Posted by Fat Imanalt

I just want to point out, if you want it to be a pivot perhaps u-turn would be beneficiary?
this is very good for a pivot, as you can switch in, do somehting for a turn or 2, then easily get back out. If we aren't giving this +2spe moves, it seems like it woudl fit...

Pivot doesn't necessarily mean "uses a switching move," it means you switch it in to force a switch out, and either set up your own strategy or diffuse the opponent's strategy. Tomohawk was essentially built on the concept of pivoting to gain momentum and it doesn't have U-turn or Volt Switch.

[srk1214]

Deck, I appreciate you wanting to make movepool building easier, as I submit movepools... but those restrictions really need to be in place in my opinion. If this thing gets Stealth Rock + Toxic Spikes + Rapid Spin + Recover + Will-o-Wisp + decent speed, good ability, and a huge special attack, there will be ZERO reason to run Tentacruel or Forretress.

Now I have nothing against building a CAP that outclasses a current OU Pokemon. Indeed, we've done that before whether intentionally or not. But to have a Pokemon outclass something as completely different as Forretress means we've overstepped our bounds on movepool. I think those restrictions are necessary.

As for making them happen, it's not hard. Mollux could just be in the Water 3 Group, where it can get Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin from Cloyster or Tentacruel (but no Recover or Stealth Rock). Or it could get Stealth Rock and Recover from Cradily or Corsola(but no Toxic Spikes or Rapid Spin). Or it could get Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin from Armaldo or Kabutops(but no Toxic Spikes or Recover). O̶r̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶c̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶g̶e̶t̶ ̶R̶a̶p̶i̶d̶ ̶S̶p̶i̶n̶ ̶+̶ ̶R̶e̶c̶o̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶S̶t̶a̶r̶m̶i̶e̶ ̶(̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶n̶o̶ ̶T̶o̶x̶i̶c̶ ̶S̶p̶i̶k̶e̶s̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶S̶t̶e̶a̶l̶t̶h̶ ̶R̶o̶c̶k̶)̶.̶ Or it could get Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock from Omastar (but no Rapid Spin or Recover)

There are so many possibilities within the Water 3 Egg Group that it doesn't even restrict movepool beyond requiring us to place it in that Egg Group. If we want to put Ingrain in the Egg moves and be usable, Cradily gives us that option. Same deal with lots of other moves.

Heck, if people want to give certain other moves via egg that don't work with the options here, people can put in a second egg group as well. As a movepool creator, I don't find this restrictive at all. I do find it necessary, however.

EDIT: (Yes Water 3 makes it impossible to prevent Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock together. The easiest solution in my opinion at that point is just to eliminate one of those options from the movepool entirely... but I'm in the minority on that opinion.)

EDIT #2: Alternatively, despite having fewer flexible options, the Mineral group covers our bases. Toxic Spikes, but that's it from Garbodor. S̶t̶e̶a̶l̶t̶h̶ ̶R̶o̶c̶k̶ ̶+̶ ̶R̶a̶p̶i̶d̶ ̶S̶p̶i̶n̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶C̶l̶a̶y̶d̶o̶l̶.̶ ̶R̶a̶p̶i̶d̶ ̶S̶p̶i̶n̶ ̶+̶ ̶R̶e̶c̶o̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶C̶r̶y̶o̶g̶o̶n̶a̶l̶.̶ ̶T̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶g̶r̶o̶u̶p̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶a̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶g̶i̶v̶e̶ ̶u̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶l̶o̶g̶i̶c̶a̶l̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶s̶o̶n̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶i̶n̶c̶l̶u̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶M̶a̶g̶n̶e̶t̶ ̶R̶i̶s̶e̶.̶

EDIT #3: Good catch uwnim. I always forget about those genderless dudes that aren't either dudes or dudettes... I've removed Starmie and Cryogonal options... and Claydol too... damn genderless mons! Mineral isn't actually a single problem-solving option I suppose.

[uwnim]

It is impossible to breed Rapid Spin and Recover onto Mollux unless it is in the Field group. The only two spinners with recover are genderless.

[Rising_Dusk]

Quite frankly, I think those specific restrictions are too restricting and largely unnecessary. Any forced limitations with Toxic Spikes are pretty unnecessary because you're thinking of CAP 3 in a vacuum. You forget that CAP 3 also exists to use against itself in a CAP 3 metagame. Toxic Spikes in itself is a pretty terrible move, and running it alongside SR really hurts CAP 3's ability to cover its behind when it comes to actually doing damage.

I, for one, am very glad that Deck removed those legality issues. They were not only too limiting for movepool designers, but highly unnecessary from a general competitive standpoint.

[kjt]

Agreed, those legality issues are kinda a pain >.<

Well it's the 24 hour (well less now) warning, so I'll just bring up a few things that popped into my head. Torment could be useful on Mollux. While a pokemon with rock + ground moves will screw over Mollux easily, it gives Pokemon with only one SE move some trouble. Imagine Torment + Protect and some combination of a STAB move, status move, sub . . . would be fun. Mollux could run a set similar to TormenTran. Oh, and then there's those choice users . . .

[Banryu]

Torment and Growth both seem pretty harmless on Mollux, don't see why they shouldn't be allowed. Though honestly I doubt they'll be used, even in the movepool stage. :0

...incidentally, I think I'll try my hand at crafting one of those this time around. x3 Egg move discussion might be polljumping a tad but I pretty much agree that the Water 3 group is one of the necessary egg groups for Mollux, considering that the group consists primarily of aquatic or marine invertebrates (where Water 1 is amphibious mammals and other vertebrates, and Water 2 is mainly fish... why didn't they name those egg groups accordingly, I have to wonder...? *Shrug*)

[Bull of Heaven]

Originally Posted by Fat Meganium Sulfate

Your entire argument against its potential is that CAP3 and other poison types absorb it, but there are extremely few such pokemon in the metagame and not all teams should be obligated to have one.

Nearly every team should have one anyway, though. How many teams in the Mollux playtest do you expect not to use Mollux? Even if a couple of people decide not to, Toxic Spikes isn't that amazing to begin with, since Steel, Flying and Levitate all grant immunities to it. Not to mention poisoning isn't that useful except on dedicated stall teams, and those tend to be difficult to use. In a typical fast-paced battle, the stat-crippling abilities of burning and paralysis are much more desirable. All of this is why Toxic Spikes has always had such limited popularity in OU. I agree with Dusk on this one: Toxic Spikes is a very balanced move in the first place, and will only be worse in a metagame where Mollux is absolutely everywhere. Allow Toxic Spikes.

Edit: Natural Cure Starmie should be great for clearing TS too, and Starmie could be quite useful in this metagame for a few reasons, judging by how Mollux is turning out. The point is: there are plenty of options to deal with TS, and it won't be serious constraint on team-building

[Banryu]

Toxic Spikes Torment, and Growth are already allowed, FYI.

As I'm constructing a preliminary movepool, I came across Wonder Room, which swaps the user's defenses for a certain amount of turns. I was thinking about throwing it in there for kicks, given at it is that it's quite gimmicky, but would that violate the whole 'focus on boosting SpDef' thing that Deck mentioned earlier? I mean, it DOES already have Acid Armor allowed, so.....