Imminent Big Change: Keldeo

[ala]

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

And what about Tornadus? Keldeo can be OHKOed by Hurricane unless it has 2 CM boosts. Outside of rain, it can even OHKO Keldeo with Acrobatics, and in that case, no matter what Keldeo do, it cannot survive. However, Tornadus cannot switch into Hydro Pump or Hidden Power Ice at all.

Yeah Tornadus is a great check, but it can't switch in unless you know your opponent will use Calm Mind. Sub variants also beat Tornadus.

Originally Posted by Fat ThePillsburyDoughBoy

That is what sucks those, you have to use that counter in Keldeo's best environment. No one is going to use Toxicroack on a non-rain team. That means for offense teams, where people don't use Jellicent/Latias, it is going to be Rain vs Rain >_>

Why can't you use Latias on an offensive team? It's pretty good with Calm Mind/Psyshock and it may see an increase of use with those teams when Keldeo is released. Latios can also counter Keldeo nicely as well and is obviously a better offensive choice than Latias. Hmm, maybe we'll see some Keldeo/Politoed/Tyranitar teams since Tar basically beats all of the checks (minus Croak) that can take a Hydro Pump and KO afterwards.

[LPFan]

I can see it hit the top 10 on usage...

[EeveeTrainer]

can some1 explain to me why keldeo and seismitoad dont learn ice beam? dunno any other water types like that

(jumpman16 notes that anyone saying magikarp etc will be banned)

[melvni]

What about Parasect as a counter? It's immune to Hydro Pump and, even with Specs, is going to be taking next to nothing from Secret Sword with a physically defensive spread.

Originally Posted by Fat EeveeTrainer

can some1 explain to me why keldeo and seismitoad dont learn ice beam? dunno any other water types like that

(jumpman16 notes that anyone saying magikarp etc will be banned)

My guess would be it's stylistic. I mean, if you look at the moves each of the other Muskadeers get outside of their STAB movepool and normal moves, all three get Aerial Ace, Stone Edge, and X-Scissor (though I guess in Terrakion's case it's part of its STAB movepool), Cobalion and Terrakion get Poison Jab, Terrakion gets Earthquake and Bulldoze, and Cobalion gets Volt Switch. Now look at Keldeo. Outside of Water, Fighting and Normal moves it gets Aerial Ace, Stone Edge, X-Scissor, and Poison Jab. Now what do those moves have in common? With the exception of Poison Jab (which two of them learn), all these moves are also learned by the other Muskadeers. My guess is they were going along with the whole idea that Keldeo is their disciple in a sense, and extended that line of reasoning into the idea that any 'special' (as in non-STAB or normal type) moves it learned would be from them.

No clue on Seismitoad though, that's probably an oversight.

[Deinosaur]

For those who have played DW, Keldeo is a monster with specs attached and rain support.

Sure Jellicent can stop it, but every mon is stopped by something. I see Keldeo combined with a pursuit user might end up being a strong combo.

[shrang]

Jellicent plain fails against SubCM Keldeo with Toxic Spikes up too, by the way.

And yes, Latias as close to being a perfect counter without having to run something which is utter fodder as you can get. You can easily fit her onto offensive teams as a supporter sweeper if you need to (just watch out for Tyranitar and all that stuff, stuff you should be watching out for already). I'm going to be planning to revamp Latias when Keldeo comes out, and it would be a bit like my DW Latias analysis, if you want to see how you counter Keldeo with it.

As I've said before, I don't think Keldeo would be broken. Top tier OU, sure, but not broken. It has counters/checks that can fit on all sorts of teams and does not restrict team-building that much at all. There's at least ten Pokemon in OU that can semi-counter it already (as seen earlier in the thread). Looking into lower tiers, we also have Roserade, which can OHKO with Leaf Storm even when Keldeo is at +1 while setting up Toxic Spikes to severely cut Keldeo's sweep time. Slowking is another Pokemon which I would call a perfect counter to Keldeo, since it resists both of its STABs, has great SpD to shrug of Hydro Pump and Hidden Power Ghost, has reliable recovery in Slack Off, Regenerator, and can either put Keldeo out of commission with Psyshock or just Dragon Tail it away. It's a pity that he's such Volt-turn prey, though, but I guess we can't have everything. Also, Keldeo in general hates sun teams, especially sun teams with Venusaur in them.

[Ithilanor]

I can definitely see rain becoming more popular overall, with rain teams generally moving to being more offensive instead of stall.

[Omicron]

Oh yes, Shrang brought up an important note: without Hidden Power Ice, Venusaur sets up all over Keldeo (in the sun of course). It resists both of its STAB moves, and can easily set up a Growth in the sun. Politoed will be highly afraid to switch in to change the weather because Venusaur can easily KO with its STAB Grass-type moves.

[Scarfwynaut]

Originally Posted by Fat shrang

And yes, Latias as close to being a perfect counter without having to run something which is utter fodder as you can get. You can easily fit her onto offensive teams as a supporter sweeper if you need to (just watch out for Tyranitar and all that stuff, stuff you should be watching out for already). I'm going to be planning to revamp Latias when Keldeo comes out, and it would be a bit like my DW Latias analysis, if you want to see how you counter Keldeo with it.

Speaking of that, I have a very serious question. Why isn't the defensive calm mind set more like this:

Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Recover
- Roar

It seems to be far more effective in combating Keldeo, psyshock isn't the greatest move for coverage, but then again neither is dragon pulse. But IDK your the one you actually uses this thing against Keldeo for real, perhaps you can enlighten men.

Also is there anything else coming out with the release of BW2, I would like to know.

[Agent Dell]

Tornadus is not a counter. Barely even a check. Tornadus can't come in on anything, and therefore counts as just a revenge killer.

As for Hidden Power, I think that HP Ice would be the most useful, since it scores a nice hit on common Dragons like Dragonite, Salamence, and the Lati twins. HP Ghost is not bad, but Ice sit's most of the same things that it should bother staying in on anyways.

[Omicron]

Originally Posted by Fat Scarfwynaut

Speaking of that, I have a very serious question. Why isn't the defensive calm mind set more like this:

Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Recover
- Roar

It seems to be far more effective in combating Keldeo, psyshock isn't the greatest move for coverage, but then again neither is dragon pulse. But IDK your the one you actually uses this thing against Keldeo for real, perhaps you can enlighten men.

Also is there anything else coming out with the release of BW2, I would like to know.

That is because this makes you complete Pursuit bait. Dragon Pulse has no immunities, and Keldeo can't touch Latias anyway thanks to Calm Mind.

[Saitsuofleaves]

Originally Posted by Fat Omicron

That is because this makes you complete Pursuit bait. Dragon Pulse has no immunities, and Keldeo can't touch Latias anyway thanks to Calm Mind.

This. Whole point of Dragon Pulse is that Latias only really has to worry about Steel-Types and the like, allowing for a ton of freedom in its 4th move (you know, aside from the standard CM/Dragon Pulse/Recover).

Add Psyshock over DP, T-Tar annihilates you, and I guarantee you'll see more T-Tars than Keldeos.

[voodoo pimp]

Originally Posted by Fat Scarfwynaut

Also is there anything else coming out with the release of BW2, I would like to know.

New forms of Kyurem and the genies, probably new tutors/egg moves but we won't know those until the games are released.

[Evire]

Jellicent and Latias usage will definitely rise, and oh, yet another weapon added to Rain teams' arsenal...

[WhiteZekrom786]

I do believe that thing will not be ubered. Sure it has an amazing 128 Sp. Atk comboed with calm mind, but some sets are like that and there has to be things that could easily check this such as Jellicent. I know you didn't ask for my opinion for which tier it would be but I'm just sayin' since this thing is coming on July 23rd and we have been waiting for this thing to come out. I'm so happy!! :D

[WaterBomb]

Originally Posted by Fat shrang

Jellicent plain fails against SubCM Keldeo with Toxic Spikes up too, by the way.

Not REST or Lum Berry variants!

*rimshot*

Seriously though, SubCM is not a good set when your offensive STABs are Water+Fighting. You absolutely need a third coverage move or you'll find yourself walled by many counters, including Jellicent who literally would not take ANY damage from you.

[SJCrew]

Sub CM Keldeo has too many counters. Don't use it. When you realize that LO Hydro Pump is doing this to Starmie in the Rain: 82.8% - 97.7%, you'll start to question what you needed a Sub for in the first place.

"Sp. Def Jirachi might Thunder Wave me whatever will I do."

+ 1 LO Hydro Pump in Rain: 69.3% - 81.9%

Keldeo doesn't require prediction of any kind. He brutalizes most of his switch-ins with sheer force.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Agent Dell

Tornadus is not a counter. Barely even a check. Tornadus can't come in on anything, and therefore counts as just a revenge killer.

Tornadus can't come in a Hydro Pump, but can come in a Calm Mind or an unboosted Secret Sword or Hidden Power Ghost; however, Keldeo can survive Hurricane if it has at least 2 Calm Mind boosts. Also, Keldeo using Choice Scarf can simply outspeed and KO Tornadus. I think that Tornadus is not the best check to Keldeo, but is a good check.

Originally Posted by Fat Agent Dell

As for Hidden Power, I think that HP Ice would be the most useful, since it scores a nice hit on common Dragons like Dragonite, Salamence, and the Lati twins. HP Ghost is not bad, but Ice sit's most of the same things that it should bother staying in on anyways.

HP Ghost hits Lati@s just as hard as HP Ice does, as Lati@s is weak to both. You can then choose an HP depending on what you think that is more important to hit; Jellicent or Dragon-type pokes. I think that is more important to hit Jellicent since Hydro Pump already does a good amount of damage to Dragon-types, and Keldeo otherwise would be hopeless against Jellicent.

[Ithilanor]

Originally Posted by Fat voodoo pimp

New forms of Kyurem and the genies, probably new tutors/egg moves but we won't know those until the games are released.

Let us not forget that Keldeo is getting a second form. Is any info known about it yet?

[APimpNamedSlickback]

Keldeo in OU is gonna a nice twist to the metagame.
I suspect that there will be a surge of rain teams and more Jellicent usage.
Even though some think that Jellicent can hard counter Keldeo, I disagree. As a few people mentioned earlier in the comments, Calm Mind and HP Ghost can smash it's counters. Hydro Pump or Surf in Rain stab is very powerful, and Secret Sword let's it shit on Blissey. I also heard somewhere that when Keldeo is released, Excadrill may be retested because Keldeo can live it's hits and KO back with it's stabs? What do you guys think about this? I also think that Keldeo + Terrakion is gonna be an INSANE wallbreaking combo. I've already started desigining a team around them ;)

[ThePillsburyDoughBoy]

Originally Posted by Fat APimpNamedSlickback

I also heard somewhere that when Keldeo is released, Excadrill may be retested because Keldeo can live it's hits and KO back with it's stabs?

If you can do so please indicate where this was said, otherwise I doubt since I really don't see the logic behind it. If that did occur I wouldn't be too happy. (Revealing ulterior motives ) Excadrill+Keldeo would make the OU metagame return LOLZWEATHERWAR tier where every team is not 6 pokes, but 5 pokes with 1 slot being a preset of 3 mons.

Lots of good discussion people. All these Hydro-Pump calcs show what a true powerhouse Keldeo is. For a lot of Pokemon who resists both of its STABS the words "not very effective" don't mean very much.

[voodoo pimp]

+2 Earthquake is an easy KO, +0 Adamant Earthquake has a chance of a KO after hazards. Not sure where that idea came from.

[Saitsuofleaves]

Originally Posted by Fat Ithilanor

Let us not forget that Keldeo is getting a second form. Is any info known about it yet?

Yeah...that it's a Form (like Sawsbuck's Seasonal Forms) and not Formes (ala Shaymin/Skymin). Thus absolutely nothing of note, other than looking cooler (debated), and that should be the last mention of it in the thread.

[Twins]

Originally Posted by Fat Saitsuofleaves

Yeah...that it's a Form (like Sawsbuck's Seasonal Forms) and not Formes (ala Shaymin/Skymin). Thus absolutely nothing of note, other than looking cooler (debated), and that should be the last mention of it in the thread.

That's really stupid. The form has maybe 3 physical differences, and now it doesn't even do anything to Keldeo's stats or movepool? What was the point then?

[voodoo pimp]

Where does it say that there are no non-cosmetic differences? This is the first I've heard of that.