Imminent Big Change: Keldeo - Page 7

Ricky Horror · Jun 21st, 2012, 10:34:20 PM

Rest in peace Sun teams. <3 Modest life orbed in Sun Fire blast from Volkie wrecks that cross gendered pony anyday, hell even in Rain.

Quilph · Jun 22nd, 2012, 2:46:51 PM

I have a small observation which isn't all that groundbreaking but is puzzling nonetheless. Why is everyone assuming Hidden Power Ghost, when Hidden Power Dark is just as powerful and hits the same things for super effective damage? Further, using Dark means you don't need to run one fewer IV for the Defense and Special Defense stats. I understand that the difference is truly negligible, but why settle for a reduction in stats if you don't need to? Off the top of my head, the only added coverage Hidden Power Ghost affords is something to hit Toxicroak neutrally with. Sure that isn't the reason everyone is opting for Ghost?

bluemon · Jun 22nd, 2012, 2:53:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Quilph

I have a small observation which isn't all that groundbreaking but is puzzling nonetheless. Why is everyone assuming Hidden Power Ghost, when Hidden Power Dark is just as powerful and hits the same things for super effective damage? Further, using Dark means you don't need to run one fewer IV for the Defense and Special Defense stats. I understand that the difference is truly negligible, but why settle for a reduction in stats if you don't need to? Off the top of my head, the only added coverage Hidden Power Ghost affords is something to hit Toxicroak neutrally with. Sure that isn't the reason everyone is opting for Ghost?

actually, that IS the reason that everyone is opting for ghost. Besides, 1 IV never hurt anyone (as long as its not Speed)

melvni · Jun 22nd, 2012, 3:03:45 PM

Well, hitting Toxicroak and not activating Justified, but mainly the former.

**voodoo pimp** · Jun 22nd, 2012, 3:17:59 PM

Hitting Toxicroak and not risking a Terrakion counter-sweep seems like more than enough reason to sacrifice a negligible amount of bulk to me.

KurashiDragon · Jun 22nd, 2012, 7:29:18 PM

Covet, Bounce, Last Resort, Superpower, Icy Wind, Aqua Tail, Snore, Helping Hand, Edeavor, Sleep Talk

So Many big moves and absolutely nothing it can use. At least it can make a decent but seriously lacking physical set with Superpower and Aqua Tail.

Also, really troll freak? You gave it Icy Wind.

Katakiri · Jun 22nd, 2012, 7:47:24 PM

252 SpAtk Timid Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Salamence: 145.02% - 171.6%
252 SpAtk Timid Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Dragonite (No Multiscale): 93.26% - 109.84%

Not the destroyer of worlds, but it does let Specs Keldeo use his Hidden Power for other things like Jellicent.

KurashiDragon · Jun 22nd, 2012, 7:51:04 PM

Dragonite get's Superpower now the only reason it has not to run Multiscale is Heal Bell which Game Freak felt the need NOT to give Dragonite. (Troll Freak, why you gotta be such trolls) Also both those pokemon are 4x Weak to Ice so that's not a very good example of how good Icy Wind is XD.

ThePillsburyDoughBoy · Jun 22nd, 2012, 7:57:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat KurashiDragon

Dragonite get's Superpower now the only reason it has not to run Multiscale is Heal Bell which Game Freak felt the need NOT to give Dragonite. (Troll Freak, why you gotta be such trolls) Also both those pokemon are 4x Weak to Ice so that's not a very good example of how good Icy Wind is XD.

It is still better than most options on the Specs set. Keldeo can get along with Icy Wind (better than without it). Didn't people use Icy Wind Gengar as a check to Chomp back in DP?

Also Multiscale with Roost+Heal Bell+DD+Dragon Claw would be impossible to take out

Katakiri · Jun 22nd, 2012, 8:13:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat KurashiDragon

Dragonite get's Superpower now the only reason it has not to run Multiscale is Heal Bell which Game Freak felt the need NOT to give Dragonite. (Troll Freak, why you gotta be such trolls) Also both those pokemon are 4x Weak to Ice so that's not a very good example of how good Icy Wind is XD.

The calc is with Multiscale broken be it by hazards, sandstorm, or a foolish switch.
The only Dragons Keldeo has a problem with are the x4 weak ones so it is the perfect example.

Icy Wind deals with the Dragons that resist Secret Sword, HP Ghost deals with Jellicent and, to a lesser extent, Celebi. Bar Grass/Poisons and Toxicroak, Ice Wind does in fact solve the bulk of Specs Keldeo's issues.

indian · Jun 22nd, 2012, 11:56:52 PM

LO Icy wind 2hkos latios and due to the speed loss you will most probably outspeed on the second turn.

Silvershadow234 · Jun 23rd, 2012, 8:06:32 AM

Volcarona is not dead-it got Giga Drain to deal with Keldeo and Terrakion. Still walled to death by Heatran, but still...

Really, no Ice Beam? I suppose Icy Wind is still pretty good though-it does 2HKO Latias with Specs or a Life Orb or after a Calm Mind I suppose. He's terrifying enough frankly to get Ice Beam.

skidilidy · Jun 23rd, 2012, 3:26:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Mesohardy

I think celebi would be a great check. Any grass type with high sp def shoyld do the trick. Virizion comes to mind.

Virizion gets destroyed by a +1 LO Secret Sword:
252SpAtk Life Orb +1 Keldeo (Neutral) Secret Sword vs 4HP/0Def Virizion (Neutral): 108% - 128% (352 - 417 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

felix · Jun 24th, 2012, 10:22:34 PM

So, I'm curious, is HP Ghost pretty much agreed by everyone to be the best Hidden Power option for Keldeo?

KevlarX290 · Jun 25th, 2012, 8:54:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat KurashiDragon

Covet, Bounce, Last Resort, Superpower, Icy Wind, Aqua Tail, Snore, Helping Hand, Edeavor, Sleep Talk

So Many big moves and absolutely nothing it can use. At least it can make a decent but seriously lacking physical set with Superpower and Aqua Tail.

Also, really troll freak? You gave it Icy Wind.

It already had Aqua Tail, and why use Superpower when it's got Close Combat?

Icy Wind is probably the only note worthy move it gained lol.

Rayquaza_ · Jun 25th, 2012, 9:10:50 AM

It really sucks that Resolution form doesn't do anything to help Keldeo, in fact it hinders him.
In DW tier Keldeo could occasionally run a Swords Dance set which, while not nearly as destructive as specially-based sets, had a form of priority (Aqua Jet) and surprise factor.

Since there is no reason not to run Secret Sword (lol Focus Blast) on standard sets, as soon as your opponent sees that Keldeo has his default sprite he'll know that you're running a physical-based set for sure, making it virtually useless.

Oh well, Keldeo is still a good pokemon. I just wish Resultion form wasn't merely aestethic.

KevlarX290 · Jun 25th, 2012, 9:31:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Rayquaza_

It really sucks that Resolution form doesn't do anything to help Keldeo, in fact it hinders him.
In DW tier Keldeo could occasionally run a Swords Dance set which, while not nearly as destructive as specially-based sets, had a form of priority (Aqua Jet) and surprise factor.

Since there is no reason not to run Secret Sword (lol Focus Blast) on standard sets, as soon as your opponent sees that Keldeo has his default sprite he'll know that you're running a physical-based set for sure, making it virtually useless.

Oh well, Keldeo is still a good pokemon. I just wish Resultion form wasn't merely aestethic.

Hmmm...could you teach Secret Sword to Keldeo in BW1 then trade it over? Kind of a hassle just to do that, but at least it'll be possible to keep it in it's normal form with Secret Sword.

Rayquaza_ · Jun 25th, 2012, 9:35:24 AM

Oh I didn't think about it. How is PO going to handle Keldeo's sprite if that works?

Doom Dawg · Jun 27th, 2012, 3:43:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat I Am

Ice Beam would be an amazing coverage move for Keldeo.

These, off the top of my head, are the current OU pokes that resist Keldeo's STAB options:

-Gyarados
-Jellicent
-Tentacruel
-Starmie
-Dragonite
-Salamence
-Latios
-Latias
-Celebi
-Venusaur

EDIT: I suppose Toxicroak is also a STAB resistor due to Dry Skin, forgot about that.

This is a complete list of the OU pokemon that resist its STAB moves:

Venusaur
Victreebel (Chlorophyll)
Tentacruel
Slowbro (UU, but used in OU)
Exeggutor (Recycle Stall?)
Starmie
Gyarados
Dragonite
Slowking (UU)
Celebi
Tropius (Recycle Stall?)
Salamence
Latias
Latios
Roserade
Amoonguss
Jellicent

PS: Shedinja is immune.

Matthew · Jun 27th, 2012, 4:03:25 AM

are we at the point where Dragonite isn't considered a counter anymore? LO Keldeo in rain 2HKOes Dragonite with ease.

0/4 Adamant Multiscale Dragonite vs 252 LO Timid Hydro Pump in rain: 29.1 - 34.4%
0/4 Adamant Dragonite vs 252 LO Timid Hydro Pump in rain: 58.2% - 68.7%

so mid damage against standard Dragonite (not bulky, not specially defensive, STANDARD) has a pretty solid chance at OHKOing. Considering SR is easy as shit to lay down I wouldn't consider Dragonite a counter at all.

IcyMan28 · Jun 27th, 2012, 3:51:06 PM

The only dragons that should be remotely considered a counter are the Lati twins, and Latios is more of a check, IMO.

MashDaButtons · Jun 28th, 2012, 12:03:47 AM

+1 LO Icy wind has a chance to 2HKO Amoongus. It's a VERY easy prediction to make on the switch.

bluemon · Jun 28th, 2012, 1:06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat MashDaButtons

+1 LO Icy wind has a chance to 2HKO Amoongus. It's a VERY easy prediction to make on the switch.

how are you going to get to +1 AND hit on the switch in?

if your keldeo calm minds on the switch, and healthy amoonguss can live the icy wind and spore/giga drain/clear smog.

if you decide to icy wind on the switch, youre at +0 and you now 3hko.

oh and btw,

super effective icy wind= 55 x 2 = 110
resisted rain boosted hydro pump= 120 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 0.5 = 135

a resisted Hydro pump is stronger than a super effective icy wind

tehy · Jun 28th, 2012, 1:24:37 AM

Only in rain, which is kind of a lame assumption to make. Although, why even pack icy wind? You have to either kill secret sword(Blissey, SPDef walls, powerful stab), hydro pump (Have fun with that?), or Hp ghost. Why not just replace HP ghost with HP ice? You really want to hit people that switch in and slow them down?

Nysyr · Jun 28th, 2012, 1:29:54 AM

I'd Like to point out that Specs Tornadus-T + Keldeo completely wrecks any chance that Amoongus has of dealing with Keldeo.

Jun 22nd, 2012, 3:17:59 PM	#155
voodoo pimp Apply directly to the forehead Moderator Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 2,965	Hitting Toxicroak and not risking a Terrakion counter-sweep seems like more than enough reason to sacrifice a negligible amount of bulk to me. __________________ Check out Smogon's new Doubles metagame! White FC: 4126-4421-4056 Black 2 FC: 3311-0920-4475 My Pokécheck Pokémon RNG is kind of like firing a gun. Why shoot blindly in every direction until you're lucky enough to hit the target when you can just take the time to aim properly and hit it with one shot?

Jun 22nd, 2012, 7:47:24 PM	#157
Katakiri Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 758 Smogon Mobile. Ugh.	252 SpAtk Timid Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Salamence: 145.02% - 171.6% 252 SpAtk Timid Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Dragonite (No Multiscale): 93.26% - 109.84% Not the destroyer of worlds, but it does let Specs Keldeo use his Hidden Power for other things like Jellicent. __________________ Take chances, make mistakes, get messy!

Jun 22nd, 2012, 11:56:52 PM	#161
indian Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 63 munger, india	LO Icy wind 2hkos latios and due to the speed loss you will most probably outspeed on the second turn. __________________ Only played gen1 & gen2

Jun 27th, 2012, 4:03:25 AM	#170
Matthew I love weather; Sun for days Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,573 Where the Sun finally sets	are we at the point where Dragonite isn't considered a counter anymore? LO Keldeo in rain 2HKOes Dragonite with ease. 0/4 Adamant Multiscale Dragonite vs 252 LO Timid Hydro Pump in rain: 29.1 - 34.4% 0/4 Adamant Dragonite vs 252 LO Timid Hydro Pump in rain: 58.2% - 68.7% so mid damage against standard Dragonite (not bulky, not specially defensive, STANDARD) has a pretty solid chance at OHKOing. Considering SR is easy as shit to lay down I wouldn't consider Dragonite a counter at all. __________________ ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻ What bitgamer tehconnection popcorn last.fm

Jun 27th, 2012, 3:51:06 PM	#171
IcyMan28 Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,793	The only dragons that should be remotely considered a counter are the Lati twins, and Latios is more of a check, IMO. __________________ In-Game Name: Anthony FC: 3309 2165 3231 I use legal hacks.

Jun 21st, 2012, 10:34:20 PM	#151
Ricky Horror Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 253 Smogon Place of Tyrant Mods..	Rest in peace Sun teams. <3 Modest life orbed in Sun Fire blast from Volkie wrecks that cross gendered pony anyday, hell even in Rain.

Jun 22nd, 2012, 2:46:51 PM	#152
Quilph Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 116	I have a small observation which isn't all that groundbreaking but is puzzling nonetheless. Why is everyone assuming Hidden Power Ghost, when Hidden Power Dark is just as powerful and hits the same things for super effective damage? Further, using Dark means you don't need to run one fewer IV for the Defense and Special Defense stats. I understand that the difference is truly negligible, but why settle for a reduction in stats if you don't need to? Off the top of my head, the only added coverage Hidden Power Ghost affords is something to hit Toxicroak neutrally with. Sure that isn't the reason everyone is opting for Ghost?

Jun 22nd, 2012, 3:03:45 PM	#154
melvni Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 864	Well, hitting Toxicroak and not activating Justified, but mainly the former.

Jun 22nd, 2012, 7:29:18 PM	#156
KurashiDragon Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 754 Where the dragons take me.	Covet, Bounce, Last Resort, Superpower, Icy Wind, Aqua Tail, Snore, Helping Hand, Edeavor, Sleep Talk So Many big moves and absolutely nothing it can use. At least it can make a decent but seriously lacking physical set with Superpower and Aqua Tail. Also, really troll freak? You gave it Icy Wind.

Jun 22nd, 2012, 7:51:04 PM	#158
KurashiDragon Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 754 Where the dragons take me.	Dragonite get's Superpower now the only reason it has not to run Multiscale is Heal Bell which Game Freak felt the need NOT to give Dragonite. (Troll Freak, why you gotta be such trolls) Also both those pokemon are 4x Weak to Ice so that's not a very good example of how good Icy Wind is XD.

Jun 23rd, 2012, 8:06:32 AM	#162
Silvershadow234 is MANLY Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 427 England	Volcarona is not dead-it got Giga Drain to deal with Keldeo and Terrakion. Still walled to death by Heatran, but still... Really, no Ice Beam? I suppose Icy Wind is still pretty good though-it does 2HKO Latias with Specs or a Life Orb or after a Calm Mind I suppose. He's terrifying enough frankly to get Ice Beam.

Jun 24th, 2012, 10:22:34 PM	#164
felix Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 415 SLC	So, I'm curious, is HP Ghost pretty much agreed by everyone to be the best Hidden Power option for Keldeo?

Jun 25th, 2012, 9:10:50 AM	#166
Rayquaza_ Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 694	It really sucks that Resolution form doesn't do anything to help Keldeo, in fact it hinders him. In DW tier Keldeo could occasionally run a Swords Dance set which, while not nearly as destructive as specially-based sets, had a form of priority (Aqua Jet) and surprise factor. Since there is no reason not to run Secret Sword (lol Focus Blast) on standard sets, as soon as your opponent sees that Keldeo has his default sprite he'll know that you're running a physical-based set for sure, making it virtually useless. Oh well, Keldeo is still a good pokemon. I just wish Resultion form wasn't merely aestethic.

Jun 25th, 2012, 9:35:24 AM	#168
Rayquaza_ Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 694	Oh I didn't think about it. How is PO going to handle Keldeo's sprite if that works?

Jun 28th, 2012, 12:03:47 AM	#172
MashDaButtons Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 9 Don't worry about it.	+1 LO Icy wind has a chance to 2HKO Amoongus. It's a VERY easy prediction to make on the switch.

Jun 28th, 2012, 1:24:37 AM	#174
tehy Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 1,158	Only in rain, which is kind of a lame assumption to make. Although, why even pack icy wind? You have to either kill secret sword(Blissey, SPDef walls, powerful stab), hydro pump (Have fun with that?), or Hp ghost. Why not just replace HP ghost with HP ice? You really want to hit people that switch in and slow them down?

Jun 28th, 2012, 1:29:54 AM	#175
Nysyr Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 74 Currently in the land of ragequit	I'd Like to point out that Specs Tornadus-T + Keldeo completely wrecks any chance that Amoongus has of dealing with Keldeo.