Black and White Kyurem

[CrackinSkulls]

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Man

Dude stop avoiding the point. White Kyurem covers all these walls in ONE move, Zekrom cannot claim to do this, (its fucked by Groudon and Ferrothorn), and Reshriam needs Sun up (tricky in a game dominated by Kyogre) to achieve maximum Power. White Kyurem just doesn't need this. Blizzard would be nice, but Ice Beam does the job. Heck, fuck all RESISTS Ice Beam, making it a damn good spammable move. If you add in Blizzard, suddenly Kyurem can spam basically a Special Outrage, that doesn't lock it in or cause confusion, and still has Focus Blast to handle Chansey just fine.



Yeah ummmm.

I am going to use your own Argument, Scarf Zekrom hits 90 base speed which ties with basically every scarfer in ubers (or loses) bar Blaziken (has Speed Boost anyway), and Excadrill (Has acess to Sand Rush). Scarf WHITE Kyurem (for example) hits 95 base speed, which means it beats scarf Dialga, Scarf Zekrom, Scarf Reshiram, Scarf Kyogre, +1 (Flame Charge) Ho-Oh, and can revenge Deoxys A. Oh yea, and you tie with +1 DD Rayquaza whereas your Scarf Zekrom loses. So with all that, yea "why would you run Scarf White Kyurem?"

Huh i guess i never really thought about it that way. So they will be quite good in ubers. thanks ginganinja!

[Mr.lol]

Both Kyurem formes should have the same Pokedex number, which means you most likely can't use them on the same team.

Thank Arceus, stall has been spared a bit more :D. This did however bring up an intresting question in mind though, since both Kyurem's easily break down virtually all physical walls, wouldn't that let them pair up nicely with Rayquaza forming a wierd Double Dance strategy? Rather then using Rayquaza's Draco Meteor which fail to OHKO Specially Defensive Groudon geared to tackle that poke on, Kyurem White's Ice Beam will ALWAYS OHKO, and this allows Rayquaza to fully invest in attack, making it more easy for it to DD up and sweep (this does mean the removal of Scarfkia though).

I think Kyurem might encourage more hail, but what concerns me is the growing Stealth Rock weakness then. We all know Abomasnow's enormous weakness to hazards and sadly the Kyurem forms have the same problems (granted they can probably just whip out a Draco Meteor / Outrage at anything that wants to set up hazards and eliminate its presence from the earth but...). Also, with its Ice-typing and decent speed, anyone think it could become a decent late game cleaner with LO (this becomes even more viable with Flame Charge)? Rather then the problem it faces with Specs (which is switching in and having its HP take another 25% of its health), this attempts to actually stay in to eliminate the foolish Steel that tried to resist it moves via Focus Blast / Fusion Flare / Superpower.

[firecape]

Ok a lot of people in this thread are talking about "counters". Very few ubers have counters to begin with, 2 more to add to that list isn't making that big of a difference. I mean, in generation four Skarmory was a fairly decent counter to Groudon, but with the generation shift, Groudon now uses Fire Punch a good portion of the time to deal with Ferrothorn, and Skarmory can no longer do much than pivot against Groudon.

Mewtwo has no counters. You can theorymon all you want but this statement will remain true no matter what you come up with, really. It's movepool is so big and its stats so good really nothing can counter it. These two new Pokemon have really good stats as well, but this is mitigated slightly by a vunerability to every single hazard. Ubers has always been a hazard-dominated metagame.

Now on to some *checks*:

Jirachi
Jirachi with a spread of 252 HP / 164 Def / 94 SpD and a SpD+ nature takes 37.9% - 44.6% from Black's Choice Band Outrage (assuming Jolly), and 42.1% - 49.8% from Fusion Bolt (sorry I'm not that up to date on moves, but Fusion Bolt is the 100 BP physical Electric attack, right? If not sorry, ignore this calc). If it gets Fire Punch, that does do 63.4% - 74.8% in neutral weather, but only 31.7% - 37.6% in Rain. Jirachi will take 55% - 64.9% from a Life Orb Fire Punch with neutral weather. Kyurem will certainly not enjoy paralysis, and is taking 44.5% - 52.7% from Iron Head with this spread. Now on to the calc you probably will not believe and go run yourself. Jirachi with this spread takes 41.6% - 49% from White's 100 BP Special Fire-type attack with Specs in the rain. Obviously Jirachi isn't taking this behomoth on in the sun, but in the rain its still a fairly solid check. Draco Meteor assuming this same spread and attacking Kyurem White does 43.1% - 50.7% for those that are curious (meaning Specs Blizzard won't 2HKO). Focus Blast does 49.3% - 58.2% assuming the same set for both, which has a decent potential for 2HKO, but I doubt anyone is going to be using Focus Miss when you have a 100 accuracy 100 BP Fire-type attack. Seeing as Kyogre is fairly dominant and we don't even know if Black will get Fire Punch, I'm calling Jirachi a solid non-gimmicky check for now, as this Jirachi is still fairly specially bulky as evidenced above.


Steel Arceus
Steel Arceus could probably be considered a check to Black, but 252 SpA LO Kyurem Black (120 base SpA) can do 45.9% - 54.1% to even 252/252+ Steel Arceus with Focus Blast, so thats a bit iffy. Arceus could obviously take the physical hits fine, as evidenced by its 20/20/20 boost over Jirachi, but its weakness to Fighting might be a nail in the coffin if the Kyurems decide to run it frequently. We'll see! I dont really feel like running all the calcs I did again since basically just take Jirachi's calcs and take some % off; Jirachi with 100/100/100 was surviving them so Arceus with 120/120/120 is gonna be fine. Just an item of curiosity, 252/252+ Steel Arceus takes 50% - 59% off 170 SpA 252 neutral LO 100 BP Special fire attack in neutral weather. Not enough to survive but perhaps enough to waste some PP off those 8 PP moves if needed.


Terrakion
As mentioned earlier, Terrakion is a fairly decent check, and can do 85.9% - 101.8% to even 252/0 Kyurem Black (Kyurem would need 252/140 to even have a chance of surviving with SR up lol; unlikely). With a Scarf, Terrakion will always outspeed them, but obviously can't exactly switch directly in to them, and if they have a substitute up can't do anything. Plently of other Scarfers can revenge them too, but I'm gonna leave my post at these checks because I like Terrakion :3.

As a closing comment, just Stealth Rocks + 1 layer of Toxic Spikes severely limit the staying power of the 2, chipping away 37.5% everytime they switch in and use an attack. Of course, some spikes on the field limits the usefulness of some of these checks, but they are just that: checks.

[Rayquaza_]

Notice how all these checks don't perform well against Groudon, which is going to be paired with WK (and BK too, since it takes down Kyogre and Lugia more easily, which are Groudon's main problems) quite often.

[IcyMan28]

Rare as it may be, Metagross could possibly see increased use in Ubers as a check to Black Kyurem. Unless it gets Earthquake, Metagross resists or is neutral to all of its attacks and has stellar defense. It's also a nice Outrage absorber for the other physical dragons in general.

Another thing. Now that we've seen that Fusion Flare/Fusion Bolt are level up moves for the formes, it is possible that they'd keep them if they were changed to the other Kyurem. If so, it would make things like White Kyurem with DM / FFlare / Ice Beam / FBolt possible on a mixed set. Not that it really needs it, but Fusion Bolt does hurt Kyogre and Ho-Oh without having to resort to Draco Meteor.

[Anikrahman1995]

The Kyurem Formes level-up moves:

646 White Kyurem :
_Lv. 1 : Icy Wind
_Lv. 1 : Dragon Rage
_Lv. 8 : Imprison
_Lv. 15 : Ancientpower
_Lv. 22 : Ice Beam
_Lv. 29 : Dragonbreath
_Lv. 36 : Slash
_Lv. 43 : Fusion Flare
_Lv. 50 : Ice Burn
_Lv. 57 : Dragon Pulse
_Lv. 64 : Imprison
_Lv. 71 : Endeavor
_Lv. 78 : Blizzard
_Lv. 85 : Outrage
_Lv. 92 : Hyper Voice

646 Black Kyurem :
_Lv. 1 : Icy Wind
_Lv. 1 : Dragon Rage
_Lv. 8 : Imprison
_Lv. 15 : Ancientpower
_Lv. 22 : Ice Beam
_Lv. 29 : Dragonbreath
_Lv. 36 : Slash
_Lv. 43 : Fusion Bolt
_Lv. 50 : Freeze Shock
_Lv. 57 : Dragon Pulse
_Lv. 64 : Imprison
_Lv. 71 : Endeavor
_Lv. 78 : Blizzard
_Lv. 85 : Outrage
_Lv. 92 : Hyper Voice

They got trolled hard. No level 100 moves? Oh cmon they are fused right? They still have the generators so Y U NO have Bolt Strike/Blue Flare? My guess is that since they are able to merge and seperate with a key item, both formes will have access to Fusion Flare/Bolt. I guess it makes sense - gamefreak doesnt like the idea of a dragon with both Blue Flare and Bolt Strike.

[Sun Sol]

Or it's because Ice Burn and Freeze Shock are basically "iced" versions of Blue Flare and Bolt Strike, animation-wise.

[locoghoul]

If BK gets Ice Punch tutor move i would like to try a sub/hone claws/Ice punch/Fusion bolt set. Has good coverage, no confusion/lock from Outrage and most of the dragons are weak to ice anyways.

[Rayquaza_]

Kyurem learns Roost and Earth Power from move tutors.
However it doesn't learn Ice Punch (good job trollfreak) and Superpower.

Looks like Black Kyurem will be Kyogre's buddy while White will be Groudon's.

[SuperHydreigon1996]

Black Kyurem does learn Freeze Shock, which is a extremely powerful physical Ice STAB move. Shame that it has a charge turn though, but it could probably abuse it with a substitute set, but Troll Freak apparently thought it'd be funny to give it a charge turn.

[LPFan]

Gosh, I can see these two being top 2 on usage if VGC 2013 will be everything except events next year...

[locoghoul]

Originally Posted by Fat Rayquaza_

Kyurem learns Roost and Earth Power from move tutors.
However it doesn't learn Ice Punch (good job trollfreak) and Superpower.

Looks like Black Kyurem will be Kyogre's buddy while White will be Groudon's.

W T F
So no phys Ice stab? (no charge bs move taken into account of course)

[Lavos Spawn]

well, looks like black kyurem is trash

white power

[Anikrahman1995]

Well atleast they learn roost. Offsett Stealth Rock damage, YAY?

[firecape]

Well Mewtwo learns Recover and has similar bulk, and he doesn't use Recover all that often, so I doubt it will see much use lol. I mean, the higher HP and 10 more points in one defense stat is offset by the Ice typing (These obviously don't have the movepool or stats for stalltwo-esque sets so don't even...). Also I guess Jirachi is out as a check to White, being demolished by Earth Power :(. Even taking on Black is a bit iffy because if it runs a mix set with LO and max SpA it can do 50% - 58.9% to 252/94+ Jirachi with Earth Power, and it needs all the rest in defense to be able to tank Fusion Bolt :/... We'll see I guess, maybe it won't even run Earth Power or a mix set that often.

[Metal Bagon]

We'll to wait for people to start trying these guys out before we make any real assumptions. At the start lots of people will be trying a heap of different sets. My main worry is that no-one will be creative and just use zekrom/reshiram's analysis sets.

[i Darky]

I think Black/White Kyurem sets with a sub forcing switches will be great, especially mid-game. With pretty good coverage, it could completely shift momentum, and ppl will probably be caught off guard expecting a choiced set if played right, meaning if you only spam 1 move all game and use an item besides leftys/LO you can bluff a choiced set and wait for the perfect time to set up a sub. It works in OU well with reg. Kyurem pretty well, as it is a pokemon almost always assumed to be choiced

[Mario With Lasers]

Originally Posted by Fat IcyMan28

Another thing. Now that we've seen that Fusion Flare/Fusion Bolt are level up moves for the formes, it is possible that they'd keep them if they were changed to the other Kyurem. If so, it would make things like White Kyurem with DM / FFlare / Ice Beam / FBolt possible on a mixed set. Not that it really needs it, but Fusion Bolt does hurt Kyogre and Ho-Oh without having to resort to Draco Meteor.

Originally Posted by Fat Serebii

When you finally capture Kyurem, it's not actually in it's Black/White forms. It's actually in its normal form at Level 70. Once captured, it leaves behind the DNA Link item which can be used to merge the two Pokémon. The IVs and EVs are that of the Kyurem, ignoring the stats of the Reshiram/Zekrom, but its moveset changes entirely based on its new form. As such, you can't bring moves across the different forms and you'll need to reteach the moves if you change the form

Yeah, sucks.

[Ithilanor]

Good to have a final answer on that, at least. Ah well.

[Rayquaza_]

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

well, looks like black kyurem is trash

white power

Yeah, 170 Atk STAB Outrage, the ability to OHKO Multiscale Lugia, Ho-oh, Skarmory and Kyogre with Fusion Bolt and access to 120 Sp.Atk STAB Ice Beam is complete trash.

[IcyMan28]

Originally Posted by Fat firecape

Well Mewtwo learns Recover and has similar bulk, and he doesn't use Recover all that often, so I doubt it will see much use lol. I mean, the higher HP and 10 more points in one defense stat is offset by the Ice typing (These obviously don't have the movepool or stats for stalltwo-esque sets so don't even...). Also I guess Jirachi is out as a check to White, being demolished by Earth Power :(. Even taking on Black is a bit iffy because if it runs a mix set with LO and max SpA it can do 50% - 58.9% to 252/94+ Jirachi with Earth Power, and it needs all the rest in defense to be able to tank Fusion Bolt :/... We'll see I guess, maybe it won't even run Earth Power or a mix set that often.

But Mewtwo has moves it would rather use in place of Recover, and Psychic doesn't exactly give it the best resistances. Kyurem has the bulk to take weaker attacks, like support Groudon's EQ, and has Water/Electric resists. Fire resist in the rain. Black Kyurem could rock Outrage / Ice Beam / Fusion Bolt / Roost and be fine. If it get Superpower, that may even be preferable to FBolt.

[Vincent]

The only "problem" (not really a problem at all) i see about those new forms is no Eletric/Fire STAB, since we are dealing with a Dragon/Ice pokemon (unless it must held an item like Griseous Orb that allow it to be in this new form and at the same time gives it a 1.5x boost on Eletric/Fire damage, depending what form we are puting into our team). But like i said, that is not really a problem because 170 base atk/sp atk is SO powerful that no STABs are really needed (maybe in some situations they ARE needed, like White Kyurem against Chansey, it would like to have both Fire STAB and Sun working together with Blue Flare to destroy the Pink Blob).

Well, now i will compare the new forms with pokemons we already know:

With 95 Base Speed and no Priority Move and no Speed Boost Move (except for Flame Charge i guess), i don't see any form being a Sweeper, but i can see they acting as Wallbreakers like Mixed Rayquaza, but they have advantagdes over the Green Serpent:

MUCH more bulky (almost like Arceus and Giratina-O), MUCH more destruction power (almost Deoxys-A), and Ice STAB that allow it to OHKO Specially Defensive Groudon with Ice Beam in one hit, a feat that not even both Deoxys-A and Rayquaza can claim (as far as i know). Other thing is that Lugia can't safely switch against it, but can against Mixed Rayquaza, what means that those new forms are MUCH better in wallbreaking than Mixed Rayquaza, almost no wall can safely switch in against those.

[Hawkstar]

OK, so Specs Kyurem White is an absolute killing machine. Pretty much everything in the whole tier is 1-2HKOed besides Heatran, Jirachi, and certain pink blobs. Even so, with Stealth Rocks up, all 4 of those are 2HKOed by Focus Blast. There is simply no safe switch-in to this beast, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if this thing overtook Kyogre as the #1 most used Pokemon in the tier.

[Poppy]

Mewtwo can use recover fine. Recover + Three attacks is a set proven to be effective. Not to mention stalltwo.

[Jibaku*]

Black kyurem got butchered beyond belief and I can't figure out what to do with it.

White kyurem on the other hand got the better end of the short stick. I could see it being used in rain teams as a way to take down grass arceus as some rain teams struggle with that, and that is something neither palkia or kyogre can do. In sun teams, it does have competition with reshiram for its role but it's ability to take out ground arceus regardless of weather and having higher sa and speed might be worth something. This is all assuming scarf of course

Then there is the ever so dangerous specs set, and roost + 3 attacks set it can use. Having access to recovery sets it apart from palkia as well.

I don't see white kyurem being a reaaaaally big impact in the user metagame, but it sure sounds like it will leave a mark.