BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Sigh...Genesect gone. Honestly, my feelings about this are the exact same as when Sand Stream got banned from UU. I seriously will miss Genesect now, because I loved using him, but at the same time I'd say "Good Riddance!" because of how it was overcentralizing the meta. Now I can use Lucario without fail again.

Dugtrio is sure to lose some usage because "DuggySect" is no more. This hopefully means that Ttar will see a rise in usage.

Anyways, nice to see we got results on the Genesect Suspect Test.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

I don't particulary care about what happens with Tornadus-T or not, but I don't see why it should be banned. It is easy to deal with fast Scarfers with super-effective or rain/sun-boosted attacks. Tornadus is also dependent on rain to spam Hurricane. If you aren't battling against another rain team, don't think that you can simply click on Hurricane without impunity. One time or another, Hurricane will miss.

Although I must agree that if you don't properly prepare for it, you will be screwed. Hurricane is so strong that it can 2HKO even Rotom-A, which resists the attack (if it isn't using a specially defensive set, of course). Tyranitar can tank Hurricanes pretty well, but is screwed by Superpower or Focus Blast. Hippowdon cannot take a Hurricane at all, and while Ninetales can check Tornadus-T, it also cannot take a Hurricane.

[emirinho]

I have to say that i wouldnt ban genesect just because genesect is not that hard to counter, because its sets are pretty well known. The main reason why it was banned is because every team had to think of countering genesect. Now, doesnt everyone have to think of terrakion as well. I mean a CB Terrakion 2OHKO'es a Skarmory. Also, everyone has to have a direct Keldeo counter on his team or else he will be simply destroyed in a couple of rounds.
In addition, everyone has to have weather counters if they are not using a weather themselves. Even then they have to check the other weathers and other weather abusers. That means that this metagame is much much more centralized on weather than on genesect. Nearly 70% of the metagame is permanent weather. I think that there were bigger priorities than genesect.
Anyways i hope we will have a more balanced metagame in the future.

[Pocket]

Those were exactly my conclusions, emirinho. Whenever I build teams, I think to myself, "am I well-prepared against Tornadus-T, Keldeo, Salamence, Chlorophyll users, Sun-boosted Fire-types, Terrakion, RP Landorus, and Stoutland?" Genesect to me pales in comparison to the above threats, and I never thought, "wow, Genesect ruins this team" (at least not the teams I made during BW2). There's just many pressing threats out there for me to prepare heavily, and Genesect wasn't one of them.

[Bent1ey]

I'm pretty sure discussing Genesect now that it's banned it's off-topic for the thread so it should be kept to a minimum...

Anyways, there are still many powerful tools in the metagame, I really look foward to see if Keldeo gets a little push in the regular ladder, or if Landorus stablishes itself as the top threat in the game. Without Genesect's comfortable Dragon resistance Dragonite regains some of it's viability, but I'd argue it's far from the top threat right now... Maybe Salamence will drop in usage?

[ginganinja]

Hi this is an OU general metagame thread and last I checked Blaziken and Excadrill were uber so can we not discuss it being unbanned / banned since its not relevent to the thread, and it derails it completely. I am aware that some people dislike the metagame and have there own opinions on how to fix it, but how about we wait a little for the metagame to stabilize with the Genesect ban before discussing what to suspect / unban. (Regardless the Council is aware of the concerns of the playerbase so just give it some time).

TY

[Dark Fallen Angel]

For those who will "miss" Scarf Genesect, Scarf Jirachi is a good replacement. It doesn't have nearly as much power as Genesect, but nonetheless is a good substitute that has some advantages. The first is Trick. The second is a combination of Serene Grace + Iron Head that will possibly hax your opponent to death. I remember having haxed many Haxorus (pun intended) by flinching them to death, for example. Also, instead of being outpaced by Scarf/+1 DD Salamence, Jirachi speed ties with him. Sure, this is not outpacing, but speed tie is better than being outpaced.

[StarmanXL]

So, is it just me, or have teams not changed all that much since November? Specifically, I'm not seeing a rise in usage of the pokemon people said would, such as Keldeo and DD Nite and stuff. Am I missing something?

[yee]

On standard ladder no change can really be expected- the people you heard that from (on IRC I'm guessing) would never wander there in its current state. I wouldn't be surprised if more than half of the people on there hadn't been playing for more than a month so they don't really have an intuitive idea of what could be done with Keldeo and Dnite compared the stuff they use like Emboar and Archeops.

[Tobes]

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

For those who will "miss" Scarf Genesect, Scarf Jirachi is a good replacement. It doesn't have nearly as much power as Genesect, but nonetheless is a good substitute that has some advantages. The first is Trick. The second is a combination of Serene Grace + Iron Head that will possibly hax your opponent to death. I remember having haxed many Haxorus (pun intended) by flinching them to death, for example. Also, instead of being outpaced by Scarf/+1 DD Salamence, Jirachi speed ties with him. Sure, this is not outpacing, but speed tie is better than being outpaced.

Scarf Jirachi is not at all a good replacement for Scarf Genesect. Scarf Jirachi is an average at best revenge killer and is nowhere comparable to Genesect. It's far weaker, has less powerful coverage, and doesn't have STAB on its U-turn. Part of what made Scarf Genesect so deadly was its strong elemental coverage, and Genesect could punish efforts to avoid that elemental coverage with its powerful U-turn. Jirachi does nothing of the sort. Its coverage moves are far more punishing to be locked into, and its U-turn does pitiful damage. The lack of STAB on U-turn forces it to forgo either a coverage move, its STAB Iron Head, Trick, or U-turn itself. You can't have all of them, and without all of them Scarf Jirachi can't even come close to Scarf Genesect's level. It isn't nearly as efficient as Genesect's usual movepool was. And Genesect at least had Explosion if you were desperate for a way to stop Modest Volcarona. If you're using Scarf Jirachi it's probably because you needed both a Scarfer and a Dragon-type or ExtremeSpeed resistance. Otherwise it is an incredibly underwhelming set.

[Katakiri]

Seems that Custap Berry has been officially announced. A nice holiday gift for Wobbuffet.

[Lord of Bays]

Originally Posted by Fat Katakiri

Seems that Custap Berry has been officially announced. A nice holiday gift for Wobbuffet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31g0YE61PLQ

Fuck all of this item. The amount of fucking Forretresses that carried this shit in DW... Dammit.

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat Katakiri

Seems that Custap Berry has been officially announced. A nice holiday gift for Wobbuffet.

On December 14th, a new challenger approaches. One of the best hazard setting leads in the game...His name? CRUSTLE.

Seriously, Custap Crustle. Use it. I got to r5 of a bw2 tour with non Custap...imagine how powerful it shall be with this new item

[AJC]

and with the announcement of custap T-mon probably is a really happy person right now.

[superbadd]

Ohhhhh.... This should be fun. Forrestress, skarmory, and possibly donphan will rise in usage no doubt. Maybe wobba can climb out of BL and be OU? Sturdy aggron and steelix in ru look cool. Along with sturdy probopass and golem in nu. Regirock will love this if/when sturdy comes out.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by Fat Tobes

Scarf Jirachi is not at all a good replacement for Scarf Genesect. Scarf Jirachi is an average at best revenge killer and is nowhere comparable to Genesect. It's far weaker, has less powerful coverage, and doesn't have STAB on its U-turn. Part of what made Scarf Genesect so deadly was its strong elemental coverage, and Genesect could punish efforts to avoid that elemental coverage with its powerful U-turn. Jirachi does nothing of the sort. Its coverage moves are far more punishing to be locked into, and its U-turn does pitiful damage. The lack of STAB on U-turn forces it to forgo either a coverage move, its STAB Iron Head, Trick, or U-turn itself. You can't have all of them, and without all of them Scarf Jirachi can't even come close to Scarf Genesect's level. It isn't nearly as efficient as Genesect's usual movepool was. And Genesect at least had Explosion if you were desperate for a way to stop Modest Volcarona. If you're using Scarf Jirachi it's probably because you needed both a Scarfer and a Dragon-type or ExtremeSpeed resistance. Otherwise it is an incredibly underwhelming set.

I will add to parts of this I agree with in that ScarfJirachi was capable of outspeeding any unboosted (+2 Spd from Rock Polish) Genesect and OHKO with Fire Punch. This was one of the reasons I often suggested Jirachi and also due to Trick locking the opponents' Ground/Fire-type moves so you could set up either Landorus or Terrakion respectively, depending on the the opponent's choice-locked move.

Not only that, but Genesect was praised for being a "Dragon Slayer" yet failed to outspeed one of the most common: MoxieMence. At least Jirachi was able to speed tie with Salamence in tight situations, whilst ensuring ScarfGenesect leads were knocked out on the first turn.

I'm not saying Jirachi with Choice Scarf is no longer a viable option because Trick and flinching w/ elemental coverage is always a safe option to fall back on, but it was more useful during the Genesect era for sure.

Once more, now that Genesect is banned I can safely say Life Orb Scizor running a Jolly nature is extremely good again. You still have to deal with Tentacruel and whittle Keldeo down towards KO range, but it can sweep rain teams and sand teams with minimal effort. Really, Breloom and Scizor should begin to see more usage together if I were believe what I am saying is true.

[DarkBlazeR]

Originally Posted by Fat Taylor

Once more, now that Genesect is banned I can safely say Life Orb Scizor running a Jolly nature is extremely good again. You still have to deal with Tentacruel and whittle Keldeo down towards KO range, but it can sweep rain teams and sand teams with minimal effort. Really, Breloom and Scizor should begin to see more usage together if I were believe what I am saying is true.

Here's a short replay of Scizor in action. It's far from an impressive battle and I did get a bit lucky, but you get the general idea of Jolly LO Scizor's prowess if anyone is in doubt.

[Bent1ey]

Apparently Wall Mart is releasing Male Sinnoh starters with their respective DW abilities. Not much to brag about, really, but I thought it was funny that Iron Fist Infernape may keep it longer from falling into UU :D

[ClubbingSealCub]

Originally Posted by Fat Bent1ey

Apparently Wall Mart is releasing Male Sinnoh starters with their respective DW abilities. Not much to brag about, really, but I thought it was funny that Iron Fist Infernape may keep it longer from falling into UU :D

But Iron Fist Infernape already exists; it's even listed as the primary option in one of the smogon sets.

[Bent1ey]

Silly me, never mind that random interjection, at least that kind of explains why Infernape hasn't left OU. Uninformed people like me must think it's new :S

[moonbase]

I don't believe that thunderus t is shown enough love.

With the scarf set with Thunder, Volt Switch, Hp Ice, and focus blast it has (for me) been the GREATEST late game sweeper in the game destroying teams that have no electric resistances left. This thing is ridiculous. More people should use it,

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Taylor

I will add to parts of this I agree with in that ScarfJirachi was capable of outspeeding any unboosted (+2 Spd from Rock Polish) Genesect and OHKO with Fire Punch. This was one of the reasons I often suggested Jirachi and also due to Trick locking the opponents' Ground/Fire-type moves so you could set up either Landorus or Terrakion respectively, depending on the the opponent's choice-locked move.

Not only that, but Genesect was praised for being a "Dragon Slayer" yet failed to outspeed one of the most common: MoxieMence. At least Jirachi was able to speed tie with Salamence in tight situations, whilst ensuring ScarfGenesect leads were knocked out on the first turn.

I'm not saying Jirachi with Choice Scarf is no longer a viable option because Trick and flinching w/ elemental coverage is always a safe option to fall back on, but it was more useful during the Genesect era for sure.

Those things that I was trying to say, Taylor. Jirachi may not have half of the power that Genesect had, but saying that it's a subpar revenge killer is a thing that I can't agree. If you are saying this, is because you never haxed, or has been haxed by Iron Head. Even without paralysis, the chances of your opponent not moving are very good. You must have something that either outspeeds Jirachi, resists Iron Head AND is not weak to its coverage moves, or that has the bulk to take repeated Iron Heads. Otherwise, I am pretty sure that Jirachi can revenge kill it. Jirachi is not the best revenge killer, but is still a great one. It even has the two advantages over Genesect, that were appointed above.

But as for Scarf Jirachi being more or being less useful with Genesect banned, I can't say for sure. All that I can say is that Scarf Jirachi is the closest thing to Scarf Genesect that exists.

[Admiral Bobbery]

Latias really needs to be used more in this meta. I've been using her in my Outsiders Challenge team (can you believe she's only at about 5% usage?!) and she has been easily my most useful teammate. She counters such important threats like Breloom, Sheer Force Landorus, and Keldeo! She even puts a stop to some Terrakion! Honestly, I think I'm in love with a lady, and her name is Latias. I don't know what I was doing without her on my teams all my life.

[Wizarus]

Originally Posted by Fat Katakiri

Seems that Custap Berry has been officially announced. A nice holiday gift for Wobbuffet.

Custap Encore/Destiny Bond mind games is going to be SO much fun.

[The Unlucky one]

what about something bulky like reuniclus? Do you think it can run a good damage CM set or something?