BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[GGengar]

Originally Posted by Fat Swamp-Rocket

Although this doesn't affect OU, Serebii has confirmed that Lugia and Ho-oh have both been found in Dream Radar with their hidden abilites. Ubers better be prepared for Lugia impossible to KO at full health and Ho-oh being able to switch in and tank more.

DW OU is really going to be a lot less played now it seems like. With Keldeo, Techniloom, Amoonguss, and Ditto being released, the only two common Pokemon left in DW OU exclusively are Genesect and Shadow Tag Chandelure (which may be released soon anyway, I have a feeling).

DW OU still has Garchomp and Excadrill.

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat GGengar

DW OU still has Garchomp and Excadrill.

Just those? Interesting. Has anyone reported any problems with them in that metagame?

[Matthew]

In Dream World I banned Soul Dew because dealing with Lati@s with it was stupid. In other news Imposter Ditto isn't that awesome of a pokemon, really, don't get so excited.

You guys need to not like talking about banning so much. It's uncompetitive and frankly a little unsettling when that's all OU talks about. If you guys are a little concerned how these new Dream World pokemon will take charge of the OU metagame you can ask Dream World players how it works, we would know best :)

Originally Posted by Fat Thorhammer

Just those? Interesting. Has anyone reported any problems with them in that metagame?

I unbanned Manaphy, Garchomp, Blaziken, Thundurus, and Excadrill.
Out of those we only banned Blaziken again and that was due to his newly found access to Baton Pass which pushed him over-the-top.

Manaphy is a less strong Keldeo, but a wonderful Darkrai counter and may lead to Darkrai's eventual unbanning in the tier. Garchomp is a good pokemon, as is Excadrill. Thundurus sucks one thousand cocks and I will rather use Zapdos over it every day of the week (like most of Dream World). If that wasn't clear enough, if Dream World UU existed Thundurus would be in it.

[G-Von]

So, what I'm getting from all this is that: we should leave the meta-game how it is with the new Terian Formes, Keldeo, and DW-available pokemon that have been introduced recently in OU, and then un-ban certain pokemon based on how powerful these new pokes are accordingly.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

[alphatron]

If baton pass was what pushed blaziken over the edge, then that says a lot.

[forestflamerunner]

@ pippy

With the release of B2W2, a large number of new and powerful Pokémon have entered the metagame. At this point, everyone is trying to test out their new toys and it will be nigh impossible to figure out how powerful some of the new threats are until the hype for them die down and people stop using these Pokémon just because they are there. This is just a necessary evil of large additions to a metagame. We saw it at the beginning of B/W where everyone had like 4 B/W pokes on their team and at the beginning of the platinum era where salamence was everywhere.

Now, when you drop down a Suspect from Uber to Ou (or BL to UU and so on) you will see a similar phenomenon. If we drop down garchomp or thundurus from Uber to OU, they will get an unnaturally high usage because it’s a new toy; something the metagame hasn’t tasted in a long time. Therefore, they will have unnaturally high levels of usage and it will take time for their hype to die down and the metagame to evolve around them before we can actually gage whether or not these previous Ubers are still OP in the new Meta. What Thorhammer is trying to say is that its going to take a couple months for this metagame to settle down one way or the other, and if/when we introduce the previous Ubers, it will take another month or two for these Pokémon to reach a natural level of usage. Since the Metagame is already in an “artificially centralized” state, it may be more efficient to let both the newly introduced Pokémon as well as the borderline Uber Pokémon to come to an equilibrium point simultaneously so we can see what balances what, and what is still OP once the metagame falls to its natural state.

Another thing to note, that Thorhammer brought up but not in so many words, is that if we let the metagame settle as is without the Ubers reintegrated, we may find some Pokémon to be Uber material when in fact if we had some Uber Pokémon back in the metagame, the metagame would be fairly balanced. To give an example of this, suppose we let the metagame settle down without unbanning anything. After about two months, we find Thundurus-T still dominating the metagame. Since it is overcentralizing, it is nominated as a suspect. Now during this suspect testing, no one is going to suggest bringing down garchomp to check thundurus (not saying it can, just making a point) or anything in that vein. Instead, we would just end up banning Thundurus T, and then later keldeo, and so on and so forth (once again, just an example, not saying this would happen). Now once we get a stable metagame, bringing down one of the previous Ubers would undoubtedly disrupt it and would cause the Uber to be sent back home, whereas if we had kept Thundurus and Keldeo and the like, then stuff like garchomp and excadrill may have been able to exist in the OU metagame without being too overpowering.

So that I hope is a decent summation of the advantages of Unbanning earlier in the BW2 Era as opposed to later down the road, and I hoped that clarified this sides point of view.

[Pippy]

Originally Posted by Fat G-Von

So, what I'm getting from all this is that: we should leave the meta-game how it is with the new Terian Formes, Keldeo, and DW-available pokemon that have been introduced recently in OU, and then un-ban certain pokemon based on how powerful these new pokes are accordingly.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

That's correct, and to do so we'd need to know what the metagame is truly like.

Matthew is right, this is kinda silly considering all the cool new stuff we got.

So moving on, what do guys think about rain? (NOT whether it's OP or not) Is it going to be as popular as it is when things settle down, or is it over hyped because of the new mons. Personally, I don't think rain is going to as common, as it hasn't gotten that much more powerful. Sure, it got Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, and Keldeo, but old rain teams already had Tornadus-I, (which is about as good), and Keldro isn't exclusively a rain mon and struggles with the Therian genies. Thundurus-T is really the only big boost, and he's certainly not unbeatable.

Thoughts?

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat Matthew

I unbanned Manaphy, Garchomp, Blaziken, Thundurus, and Excadrill.
Out of those we only banned Blaziken again and that was due to his newly found access to Baton Pass which pushed him over-the-top.

Manaphy is a less strong Keldeo, but a wonderful Darkrai counter and may lead to Darkrai's eventual unbanning in the tier. Garchomp is a good pokemon, as is Excadrill. Thundurus sucks one thousand cocks and I will rather use Zapdos over it every day of the week (like most of Dream World). If that wasn't clear enough, if Dream World UU existed Thundurus would be in it.

That's really interesting. And the current possibilities do seem to resemble the DW tier more than BW OU. Yet Blaziken can't yet use Speed Boost + Baton Pass in BW2, can it? If so, this sounds like conclusive evidence that these five, at minimum, need a prompt second chance in order for us to know what the metagame is truly like.

Either way, you're right; I think I'll leave this leg of the discussion at this for the time being.

---

So Gliscor can now run Poison Heal with any of its movesets, or at least most of the big ones. I recall he was a top fighter without Roost; with it, he's got to be leaving quite an impact, huh?

[ZzCuDizZ]

Originally Posted by Fat Pippy

That's correct, and to do so we'd need to know what the metagame is truly like.

Matthew is right, this is kinda silly considering all the cool new stuff we got.

So moving on, what do guys think about rain? (NOT whether it's OP or not) Is it going to be as popular as it is when things settle down, or is it over hyped because of the new mons. Personally, I don't think rain is going to as common, as it hasn't gotten that much more powerful. Sure, it got Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, and Keldeo, but old rain teams already had Tornadus-I, (which is about as good), and Keldro isn't exclusively a rain mon and struggles with the Therian genies. Thundurus-T is really the only big boost, and he's certainly not unbeatable.

Thoughts?

Depends, Only reason I think Rain was so overused is for the simple fact Excadrill was banned. However, if Excadrill and garchomp also throw landorus-T in there. I think It would be a tie in usage between rain and sand.

[G-Von]

Originally Posted by Fat Pippy

So moving on, what do guys think about rain? (NOT whether it's OP or not) Is it going to be as popular as it is when things settle down, or is it over hyped because of the new mons. Personally, I don't think rain is going to as common, as it hasn't gotten that much more powerful. Sure, it got Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, and Keldeo, but old rain teams already had Tornadus-I, (which is about as good), and Keldro isn't exclusively a rain mon and struggles with the Therian genies. Thundurus-T is really the only big boost, and he's certainly not unbeatable.

Thoughts?

Well, it will definitely get a huge boost because of physical attackers getting Aqua Tail. Heat Wave on new pokemon on Sun Teams will probably go unnoticed in my opinion. Haxorus is the biggest name who got Aqua Tail. In the rain, apparently it can 2HKO everything if its at +1 life orb i think. maybe +2 life orb, I forget. I'm still upset it didn't get Fire Punch =/

I know many other pokes got aqua tail, but theres no full list that says "Pokemon who learn Aqua Tail via B2W2 Move Tutor" so its very annoying going through every pokemon in the game to find out this info.

[Silvershadow234]

Haven't seen Haxorus at all on the ladder, but I must say I'm not that impressed with Landorus-T, since with all the rain teams around he is having a hard time doing anything at all. The SR lead isn't that great if I'm honest.

On another note, very impressed with Techniloom. He does big damage to pretty much everything and doubles up as a great revenge killer. I doubt that he could take down Tornadus and Thunderus, but he is much better than Scizor against Heatran and sun teams(apart from Venusaur). I think that this guy could force Scrafty into UU with that insanely powerful Mach Punch. At the moment, I'm using a Spore/Swords Dance/Mach Punch/Bullet Seed set. Fails against Gengar and ghosts in general, but is going to be very useful in keeping sand teams usage down(Mach Punch is going to just decimate Terrakion/Tyranitar, while Bullet Seed takes out Landorus and Hippowdon after a Swords Dance I suspect).

Edit-just tried out Scarf Thunderus-T on my non-weather team-damn this thing hits hard! Great scout too with Volt Switch, and pairs up nicely with Techniloom in revenging things. IMO this thing is really, really good-101 speed is excellent in outspeeding DD Moxie Mence and the like. Only seen one sand team-6-0'd with Techniloom.

[Thorhammer]

Ctrl+F "Aqua Tail" in the section listing the Move Tutors and Pokemon that can learn them?

[Ouro]

Blah I cant decide which set to run on my Gliscor now.

These changes are great and hopefully they make playing Stall for nubs like me much easier.

[G-Von]

Originally Posted by Fat Thorhammer

Ctrl+F "Aqua Tail" in the section listing the Move Tutors and Pokemon that can learn them?

CRAP. good call Thorhammer.

Well from what I noticed, these are the notable pokes who got Aqua Tail:
Serperior
Scolipede
Krookodile
Archeops
Eelektross
Haxorus
Druddigon

I figure anything that was not a Gen 5 pokemon already received it through a previous move tutor. Krook and Archeops are notable mentions since they can abuse this move on sand teams since they do not take sandstorm damage, and archeops gets a SpD boost. I already mentioned Haxorus in a previous post.

Heat Wave is another weather-boosted move and it is even stronger than Aqua Tail, is a huge VGC move, and has a secondary effect. Here are the notable pokemon who earned Heat Wave:
Zapdos
Archeops
Sigilyph
Tornadus
Tornadus-T

As we all know, Zapdos with Lightningrod and Heat Wave is now legal. That has been big news. Acheops has a usable 112 Sp Attack to use Heat Wave so now he can benefit from both sand and sun teams. SIGILYPH! One of my personal favorites of Gen 5 officially has a way to deal with steels. It also received Dark Pulse and Signal Beam from the tutor and already had his STAB moves along with Ice Beam and Shadow Ball. I have 5 words for everyone: Life Orb Plus Magic Guard. Don't underestimate it. Tornadus and Tornadus receive this move so now they do not have to rely on Focus Miss to beat steels.

What does everyone else think about this?

[jle1076]

Manaphy needs to stay gone since all rain did was get better..thats why it was gone in the first place. Reliable Recovery + one of the best boosting moves + STAB surf/HP in rain is stupid for one pokemon to have with solid base 100s

[Skore]

Originally Posted by Fat G-Von

What does everyone else think about this?

I think Flying types as a whole just a lot more usable and I'm personally STOKED to have Moxie-krow with Heatwave, Archeops with Roost and the scarily powerful Sigilyph to play with.

Regarding the previous discussion re: bans, I think forestflamerunner summed up my thoughts with more eloquence than I could manage.

[Skore]

Originally Posted by Fat jle1076

Manaphy needs to stay gone since all rain did was get better..thats why it was gone in the first place. Reliable Recovery + one of the best boosting moves + STAB surf/HP in rain is stupid for one pokemon to have with solid base 100s

Thundurus-T exists now.

[Dr Ciel]

Originally Posted by Fat Ouro

Blah I cant decide which set to run on my Gliscor now.

These changes are great and hopefully they make playing Stall for nubs like me much easier.

Just look at your current team, see how Gliscor can fit in and then you can decide which set to run. I know, it's hard, I'm still thinking of what set to run.

[jle1076]

Originally Posted by Fat Skore

Thundurus-T exists now.

And he'll be gone to ubers lol theres no reason he shouldnt go if regular Thundurus went. He lost barely any bulk by gaining a MONSTROUS SpA stat.

[LPFan]

Every team I play on Pokemon Online's server has both the new formes of Tornadus/Thundurus...

[R0xa5]

Has anyone tried Raikou in the new meta-game? Based on the discussion here it looks like it can really do some work.

[nyczxjay]

Originally Posted by Fat jle1076

And he'll be gone to ubers lol theres no reason he shouldnt go if regular Thundurus went. He lost barely any bulk by gaining a MONSTROUS SpA stat.

I've personally found Thundurus-T underwhelming. The loss of speed is really noticeable and I have never had any problems dealing with it so far. IMO normal Thundurus is way better with its 111 speed and Prankster Thunder Wave. And if you use a Choice Scarf to patch up the loss of speed, it's STAB moves (Thunder, Volt Switch) are largely a liability against good players since most teams now carry at least 1 Electric immunity and 1 Electric resist, which means it can't spam STAB electric attacks off its "monstrous SpA". This is of course just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Fat LPFan

Every team I play on Pokemon Online's server has both the new formes of Tornadus/Thundurus...

It's just a part of the "new toy" phase of the metagame. It'll die down eventually. I was also guilty of using both of them on my team in the beginning, until I found that Thundurus-T (at least from my experience) wasn't as good as its stats led you to initially believe.

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat jle1076

And he'll be gone to ubers lol theres no reason he shouldnt go if regular Thundurus went. He lost barely any bulk by gaining a MONSTROUS SpA stat.

Thundurus's time as an uber is likely at an end, as the current metagame is really starting to resemble the DW tier, where Thundurus was not considered broken.

Besides, as noted, Thundurus-T lacks Thundurus's best tricks. It has its uses as a specially attacking powerhouse, but it'll have to play completely differently to use them. In fact, it should find itself playing a lot like Zapdos, as it not only shares its typing, but also now has a similar ability and Speed stat. It just trades some of its defensive stats for its Atk/SpA. And given that Zapdos is UU right now, there's not much of a chance that Thundurus-T will turn out to be broken.

[jle1076]

145 SpA kinda makes all that not mean too much lol

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat jle1076

145 SpA kinda makes all that not mean too much lol

http://serebii.net/pokedex-bw/stat/attack.shtml
http://serebii.net/pokedex-bw/stat/sp-attack.shtml

Hmm. Looks like there are plenty of Pokemon with Atk/SpA stats around that level without being broken. The ones that are broken either have an uber-level BST (Thundurus-T does not) or are named Deoxys. Clearly it can't be assumed to mean a whole lot for Thundurus-T, either.