BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Taylor]

120 power 100% accurate scald with a 30% burn in rain
120 power 100% accurate thunder with a 30% paralyse in rain
120 power 100% accurate hurricane with a 30% confuse in rain
180 power 80% accurate Hydro pump resisted by a grand total of 3 types.

What's scary about these statistics is STAB and rain-boosted attacks, which results the following: Politoed's Scald hits a neutral foe essentially for super effective damage. If a Pokemon resists your STAB Hydro Pump in rain, you still deliver 120 BP's worth of damage, which just goes to show how powerful rain has been in BW. Fortunately the metagame has evolved multiple times throughout the last couple or so of generations that we see new Pokemon introduced to make the game more diverse.

Sand has been one of the staple strats for three generations straight, and was provided with a handful of goodies in BW (Terrakion/Landorus). DragMag, as referred to, is a very formidable strategy to use when built properly (you don't even have to use Magneton/zone, by the way). Even sun has proved it can, if used and structered efficiently enough to deal with weathers by including Dugtrio, hold its own against the best of teams.

A Pokemon like Genesect shattered teams apart on its own. It took one place in a players' team, which meant you had five other members to really take advantage of its biggest assets and strong points. Politoed cannot do the same in terms of slaughtering a team single-handidly, and when dealing with a team based around rain, it has one route of action and that is to abuse its weather, whilst maintaining it.

You can say well, add Terrakion and Latias to deal with sand and sun respectively but you can do the exact same with the other weathers. For example, Sand can run Keldeo.

It may have not been the easiest generation to adapt to competitive battling and I'm sure the council will do its best come Gen 6 to produce a well-rounded metagame for us all to enjoy but Pokemon itself is always evolving and you can't expect, with each generation that is released, for the metagame to get progressively weaker; more threats equals more potential strategies worth checking.

[BKC]

It is not "too late" to make changes to the current metagame, as Gen VI will be released in nearly ten months; we made the last tiering change of Gen IV about a month and a half before BW was released. Not to mention that Gen V will still have a strong influence in major tournaments, and just because it will [relatively] soon be a past generation doesn't mean we just give up on it now.

[mcdanger]

I dont mind drizze, as it provides more diversity in the metagame. With tornadus therian gone, rain lost a major abuser, and while keldeo is still a common rain sweeper, celebi walls it now without fear of tornadus therian. Same with thunderus therian. As the calcs taylor posted show, rain is one of, if not the most powerful weather. Even if keldeo was banned, I feel sand would take a hit as keldeo is a strong sand sweeper like landorus i.

[BKC]

Discussing Kyurem-B in #suspect

[11:57] <+BKC> ppl should use
[11:57] <+BKC> sub fbolt ibeam epower
[11:57] <+BKC> kyub
[11:57] <+BKC> that thing is so scary for sand teams
[11:57] <%SuperMarioBro> if only its physical movepool wasn't so terrible
[11:58] <+BKC> doesnt matter
[11:58] <+BKC> it has all it needs
[11:58] <+BKC> w/ that set
[11:58] <%SuperMarioBro> kyurem-B is a little hard to fit on teams because of its bad typing
[11:59] <%SuperMarioBro> it checks specs politoed i guess
[11:59] <%SuperMarioBro> with its bulk
[11:59] <+BKC> yea it cant switch in on much
[11:59] <+BKC> but once it gets in
[11:59] <+BKC> its a terror

Use this thing more.

[Shurtugal]

I'm agreeing with BKC. I made this hail team with that same Cube set and I was surprised. The thing can easily set up substitutes, and its got amazing coverage. Not to mention that Wash is flattened by EP and Dragonite's multiscale is ignored, small things like this are hugely noticeable when you use it!

[shrang]

Personally, I think Kyurem-B should run a physical Dragon STAB over Fusion Bolt, since Ice Beam and Earth Power 2HKO most Steel-types anyway. Your bulky Waters are 2HKOed by Outrage as well, while Ice Beam 2HKOes Gyarados.

[Shurtugal]

It hits things like Politoed though, and when your using hail this is a huge plus. Hitting bulky waters is also good since earth power is really pushing it to beat them. Fusion Bolt is better for Gatr / Azu / Politoed / Keldeo (behind a sub) / etc. A Dragon STAB should be slashed because it has merits, it really depends on what you want to hit imo.

[Siggu]

Originally Posted by Fat shrang

Personally, I think Kyurem-B should run a physical Dragon STAB over Fusion Bolt, since Ice Beam and Earth Power 2HKO most Steel-types anyway. Your bulky Waters are 2HKOed by Outrage as well, while Ice Beam 2HKOes Gyarados.

Specs Politoed OHKOes 56 HP Kyurem-B 43,75% of the time with Focus Blast WITHOUT Stealth Rock. Kyu-B's Fusion Bolt always outspeeds and OHKOes that Politoed with SR

Much like it was already said, you can run a Dragon-type move, but it depends on what you want Kyurem-B to check

[Queen of Randoms]

I've actually never used kyu-b since suspect testing. That set sounds interesting; what EVs/nature are you running?

[BROStime]

Kyurem-B is by far the most dangerous pokemon when beeing behind a sub, and with it's great coverage moves and great ability there is really nothing that can beat it, especially in hail as hail negatates Leftovers recovery. Kyu-B also has amazing base Atk and SpA that lets it hit so incredibly hard. And as Shurtugal said having the ability to beat Multiscale and Levitate is incredibly noticable and also helps Kyu-B having more intact subtitutes as without it's ability would have been walled a lot easier. Another cool thing about Kyu-B is that he can have 101 Subtitutes and those are incredibly bulky which are maby the biggest factor for Kyu-B beeing the best Substituter in OU.

[typon77]

I've tried a Sub Mixed Cube set like that, and Fusion Bolt is superior in most of the situations I encountered. The main problem with running a Dragon STAB is that Outrage locks you in, which is something that a Substitute attacker like Kyurem doesn't want, as it can force you to switch out with a sub intact, wasting the offensive pressure and wall breaking spree that Kyurem could've been on. On the other hand, an unboosted Dragon Claw just doesn't hit hard enough on neutral targets (i.e. the main things you would use it on). Meanwhile, Fusion Bolt gives you an excellent super effective coverage move, which is definitely a a great boon on a powerful mixed attacker. The two special moves (Ice Beam and Earth Power) get great neutral coverage, so I've always found the extra neutral coverage move to be unnecessary.

[alexwolf]

Originally Posted by Fat Queen of Randoms

I've actually never used kyu-b since suspect testing. That set sounds interesting; what EVs/nature are you running?

The Sub set usually has 56 HP EVs and 236 Spe EVs to outspeed max Speed Mamo and make 101 HP Subs. The you can put the remaining EVs in whichever offensive stat you want. The moveset of the sub set consists of Sub, Fusion Bolt, and Ice Beam. In the last slot more people use Earth Power, but HP Fire and Focus Blast are very good coverage moves as well. You can also use Dragon Claw in the last slot, and put the leftovers EVs in Atk to make it hit as hard as possible, but the coverage moves for Steel types are usually better. Leftovers is the best item, but if you find its power lacking, Life Orb and Expert Belt are good options too.

[Ojama]

Kyurem-Black@Leftovers
Trait : Teravolt
Evs : 252 HP / 24 Atk / 232 SDef
Sassy (+SDef ; -Spd)
- Ice Beam
- Dragon Tail
- Substitute
- Roost

This set is probably Kyurem-B's best set because it's both able to take hits like a monster and makes really good damage with DTail + Ice Beam. People think Sub Kyu-b is running dtail + epower so they obviously send in Skarmory or Lando-T/Gliscor and they get fucked by Ice Beam. The Evs spread is kinda standard, the 232 sdef evs allow Kyurem-Black's Substitute to not get broken by Surf from Keldeo in Rain. It takes like 75% max on Focus Blast from Landorus and 50-59% on Hurricane from SpecsTornadus. This thing is really underrated, give it a try and you'll see how strong it is.

[Eggbert]

It's better to run careful and a pinch of speed. This way you can sub before tentacruel and politoed scald you, and also so you can outphaze skarmory. I prefer running hone claws over ice beam anyway, since it makes dragon tail really powerful and prevents it from untimely misses. At +1 you are doing upwards 60% to terrakion so multiple hazards and dragon tail bring all types of teams down quickly. Land-T and gliscor would rarely switch in on cube due to the fear of ice beam.

[Lavos Spawn]

agreeing with eggbert in that you either need to run speed on that thing to outspeed tenta or run a cleric on the same team as kyu-b, otherwise if that thing takes a single scald burn or toxic it's essentially useless. pretty amazing though that it only takes 75% max from sheer force lando's focus blast and then ohkos back with ice beam. i'm glad you showed the public this set, ojama, because i feel that for too long people have been utilizing kyurem-b as a completely offensive threat and have ignored its staggering 125 / 100 / 90 defenses, plus its access to dragon tail and roost. the only problem i have with this set is kyurem-b's questionable typing. i understand this particular set is fantastic against rain since kyu-b resists water and its sub won't even be broken by keldeo's rain-boosted surf, but it seems like against a sand offense team, for example, it'll be mostly dead weight. i suppose it could surprise landorus or lando-t with ice beam, or maybe catch terrakion trying to set up on it and phaze it out, but beyond that...i dunno. seems like good team partners would be your everyday rain balance team, i.e. politoed, tentacruel, ferrothorn, jirachi. i'd like to hear what you use, ojama, as support for your kyurem-b set.

some calcs indicate that kyurem-b is still doing about 185% damage to landorus even with a careful nature, so yeah, consider doing that.

[Ojama]

I use this Kyurem-B set on a Rain Stall : Politoed / T-Spikes Tentacruel / Landorus-T / Ferrothorn / Zapdos / Kyurem-B. This Team has a few weaknesses especially the double SR weakness with Zapdos and Kyu-B but it works very well. Using it is cool since it's, in my opinion, an original rain stall.

[Zentrius]

I used Sub Hone Claws Kyurem-B on my stall team consisting of Hippowdon, Celebi, Skarmory, Sableye and Tetacruel and it worked pretty awesome. It was something like this IIRC.

Kyurem-B @ Leftovers
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 200 HP / 156 Def / 140 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Hone Claws
- Substitute
- Dragon Tail
- Roost

You coul basically come in on a resist, set-up a sub and then just shuffle the opponent racking up residual and hazards damage. With that spread, Kyurem-B survives a Choice Band Bullet Punch from Scizor after Rocks and phaze it away with Dragon Tail. Also, it forms a pretty formidable core with Celebi and Tetacruel, resisting each others weaknesses pretty nicely.

[GatoDelFuego]

So, deoxys-D has been banned. What does everything think this means for the progression of the metagame? Will it turn out exactly like the suspect metagame, with weather as a dominant force? What new styles will emerge? Personally, I'm hoping defensive play gets used a bit more due to hyper offense taking a bit of a blow.

[Lord of Bays]

Weather has been the dominant force since September 18th, 2010, don't try and kid anyone. Even with Deo-S and then Deo-D Hyper Offense, weather was better. Now that we've gotten rid of all the red herrings maybe we can finally make a half-way decent OU metagame.

Of course, knowing how the suspect trend has gone we're more likely to see Soul Dew made legal and then Latios and Latias suspected before Drizzle and Drought.

[G-Von]

Well, I predict 60% of teams will be running weather at the end of March. I doubt Soul Dew will be allowed to be tested; it would give the Latis waaaay too much of a boon and be able to switch up moves while having a free CM boost. The main thing is, now that Deo-D is gone, what direction do we have to go in to achieve a balanced meta? Should we buff some weathers or should we try to help weatherless out?

[Jukain]

oh kyurem-b. more like kyurem-bulky:

Kyurem-B @ Life Orb
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 120 HP / 252 SAtk / 136 Spd
Modest Nature
- Roost
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam

Kyurem-B is a BULKY Pokemon. Standard mixed sets just squander this bulk so I prefer this set. Roost means you can stall out foes and counter stuff like Starmie and Jolteon in rain. It means more SR switch-ins. It means Terrakion used Close Combat! Kyurem-B lost 92% of its health! This means Scarf Keldeo Secret Sword doesn't OHKO. It still has all the offensive power it needs, with Fusion Bolt OHKOing the relevant bulky Water-types and Ice Beam + Earth Power doing the rest. Speed outruns Adamant Dragonite and Mamoswine because fuck them.

EDIT: also annoyed at deo-d ban FREE EXCADRILL

[Curtains]

Shame that it got banned. No one really had a concrete reason imo.

Anyways we are still going to see the same ttar + lati@s + uturners + keldeo sand teams and rain. I think volcarona will become an extremely good pokemon as most teams get outright 6-0ed with it after 2 QDs. Dragons are still very strong and HO can still thrive with reasonable alternatives like skarmory. Overall this is a good tournament B/W metagame. Weather will always be OP and we always will need checks and counters for it. But overall I don't really see the need to have anything suspected unless it is weather or bringing something down (i think blaziken should get another look).... Lets see what these guys come up with.

[Meru]

Not sure why people at lamenting about the fact that Deoxys-D isn't going to see use in Ubers If Deoxys-S, Deoxys-A, and Deoxys-N didn't exist, I'm sure it'd see use. Hell even Deoxys-N doesn't see use because it's outclassed.

Not to mention the whole we don't ban based on viability in ubers blah blah blah

[GatoDelFuego]

Originally Posted by Fat Lord of Bays

Weather has been the dominant force since September 18th, 2010, don't try and kid anyone.

I meant that in the suspect thread, people complained about rain being the only team used at all. I never really knew, not participating myself, but people seemed to say weather was even more overused than always. I'm not silly enough to think that deoxys was the only thing keeping weather from completely monopolizing the game.

[Lord of Bays]

Originally Posted by Fat GatoDelFuego

I meant that in the suspect thread, people complained about rain being the only team used at all. I never really knew, not participating myself, but people seemed to say weather was even more overused than always. I'm not silly enough to think that deoxys was the only thing keeping weather from completely monopolizing the game.

Oh, okay. Well, Deo-D HO was very good and very easy to use, so people used that. With that being gone, the players that didn't already use weather have moved on to weather now that Deoxys is finally gone from OU, so, naturally that will create fewer team archetypes (try and run Ferrothorn/Forretress HO like you would Deo-D, I dare you) and the best archetypes will be used the most.