BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Jerp]

Just throwing this out there, due to salamence getting moxie, a lot of them are scarfed w/ outrage... IMO, mence is used more as a late game clean up sweeper.

On a different topic, has anybody heard about garchomp potentially becoming ou again?

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat Jerp

On a different topic, has anybody heard about garchomp potentially becoming ou again?

We're not supposed to make assumptions about what will be banned or unbanned. However, in the DW OU tier, which OU now closely resembles, several Pokemon banned under more questionable circumstances were unbanned and seemed to do okay, Garchomp included. So it does seem like it and the others should get a second chance sometime in the near future, although that won't be immediate.

[Jerp]

Originally Posted by Fat Thorhammer

We're not supposed to make assumptions about what will be banned or unbanned. However, in the DW OU tier, which OU now closely resembles, several Pokemon banned under more questionable circumstances were unbanned and seemed to do okay, Garchomp included. So it does seem like it and the others should get a second chance sometime in the near future, although that won't be immediate.

Oh wow didn't realize we weren't supposed to make assumptions. But I hope it does, at least so sand teams become somewhat common...

[Saitsuofleaves]

Why do people assume Physical Keldeo sets might actually work? They don't even have the surprise factor...

[kiddu]

Originally Posted by Fat IcyMan28

Mence will never use its flying STAB, for one thing,

Yeah, I should have added that there.

and is more frail on the special side (and physical).

Got that.

As a wallbreaker, it either goes all out or uses the classic Roost/FB/DM/BB set. Hydreigon has much stronger special attacks (which are more important considering Blissey is really the only thing that can take them), and now has Superpower vs. Salamence's BB/Outrage so that it doesn't lock itself in. It can also feasibly run a Substitute to avoid status, whereas Mence loses 50% by doing so thanks to its Stealth Rock weakness.

Mence can do more things, but Hydreigon is far from outclassed as a wallbreaker.

Yes, Hydreigon his harder specially, but Mence hits even harder than that physically, and has Moxie to boost it even further (in fact, a +1 Brick Break from Mence will do more damage than a +0 Superpower from Hydreigon with equal EV investment), which is no longer illegal thanks to the new tutors. Both have Roost to compensate for using Substitute and taking SR damage, but Salamence can also use Intimidate to cushion a blow and/or force a switch, making it easier for it to set one up.

Hydreigon might not necessarily be outclassed as a wallbreaker, but it isn't something that no other dragon can handle.

[IcyMan28]

Yes, Hydreigon his harder specially, but Mence hits even harder than that physically, and has Moxie to boost it even further (in fact, a +1 Brick Break from Mence will do more damage than a +0 Superpower from Hydreigon with equal EV investment), which is no longer illegal thanks to the new tutors. Both have Roost to compensate for using Substitute and taking SR damage, but Salamence can also use Intimidate to cushion a blow and/or force a switch, making it easier for it to set one up.

Hydreigon might not necessarily be outclassed as a wallbreaker, but it isn't something that no other dragon can handle.

If you take boosts into account, then that changes things. Obviously Mence will outdamage Hydreigon in that case. Personally, I think being able to hit hard on the special side is more important than hitting the physical side hard in terms of wallbreaking. Hippo, Gliscor, Skarm, Forry, etc are all prominent members of stall and can take pretty strong physical hits. But for the special end of the spectrum, there really isn't anything other than Blissey that can universally handle special attackers (maybe SpD Jirachi, but fire attacks hurt). So if you can take down Blissey, it becomes alot harder for them to handle special threats, whereas losing Forry can be remedied between the remaining physical walls.

Really, it's a matter of being able to smash your normal switch-ins hard the first time, because your opponent won't fall for it a second. All Hydreigon has to do is kill lure and kill Blissey, and then nothing stands in its way. Salamence can get past Hippo, sure...but there's still Gliscor and Skarmory left. In any case we're arguing apples and oranges. Both can wallbreak, but neither really outclasses the other.

[Jerp]

Originally Posted by Fat kiddu

Yes, Hydreigon his harder specially, but Mence hits even harder than that physically, and has Moxie to boost it even further (in fact, a +1 Brick Break from Mence will do more damage than a +0 Superpower from Hydreigon with equal EV investment), which is no longer illegal thanks to the new tutors. Both have Roost to compensate for using Substitute and taking SR damage, but Salamence can also use Intimidate to cushion a blow and/or force a switch, making it easier for it to set one up.

Hydreigon might not necessarily be outclassed as a wallbreaker, but it isn't something that no other dragon can handle.

That's true, but mence can have either intimidate or moxie. With intimidate, it only weakens physical attackers, meaning something like latios is completely unaffected by that. Moxie is great and all, but a 4x ice, 2x dragon and rock weakness means that it's still not that hard to KO, especially after SR damage, not to mention the fact that most moxie sets are scarfed, and will be forced to switch when facing something that resists their attacks.

[kiddu]

Originally Posted by Fat IcyMan28

If you take boosts into account, then that changes things. Obviously Mence will outdamage Hydreigon in that case. Personally, I think being able to hit hard on the special side is more important than hitting the physical side hard in terms of wallbreaking. Hippo, Gliscor, Skarm, Forry, etc are all prominent members of stall and can take pretty strong physical hits. But for the special end of the spectrum, there really isn't anything other than Blissey that can universally handle special attackers (maybe SpD Jirachi, but fire attacks hurt). So if you can take down Blissey, it becomes alot harder for them to handle special threats, whereas losing Forry can be remedied between the remaining physical walls.

Really, it's a matter of being able to smash your normal switch-ins hard the first time, because your opponent won't fall for it a second. All Hydreigon has to do is kill lure and kill Blissey, and then nothing stands in its way. Salamence can get past Hippo, sure...but there's still Gliscor and Skarmory left. In any case we're arguing apples and oranges. Both can wallbreak, but neither really outclasses the other.

Cha--*shot*

Fair enough.

[Blightbringer]

Originally Posted by Fat -Manaphy--

IIRC, Techniloom can do 60% to Tornadus-t with Mach Punch, and about 70% with LO. You only really need a bit of prior damage on it, Stealth Rock helps.

stealth rock wouldnt work

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat Blightbringer

stealth rock wouldnt work

Prior damage doesn't really work in general, either. That thing isn't easy to take down.

[ThePillsburyDoughBoy]

Originally Posted by Fat Blightbringer

stealth rock wouldnt work

It has Regenerator sure but even with it still comes in at 75% health as opposed to 100% (Regenerator works before SR so0)

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat ThePillsburyDoughBoy

It has Regenerator sure but even with it still comes in at 75% health as opposed to 100% (Regenerator works before SR so0)

Which isn't going to be enough in this case.

[Scarfwynaut]

Lol is this gonna be Thundurus again, where I use a full counter and rarely have problems while everyone else is having trouble checking it. Just shows you what a little defense can do.

Lol indeed, lol indeed.

[ThePillsburyDoughBoy]

Originally Posted by Fat Thorhammer

Which isn't going to be enough in this case.

Getting 6% extra damage on it wouldn't be that difficult at all even with Regenerator. Any form of residual damage, including Sand, means it is enough to take it out of the match.

Originally Posted by Fat Scarfwynaut

Lol is this gonna be Thundurus again, where I use a full counter and rarely have problems while everyone else is having trouble checking it. Just shows you what a little defense can do.

Lol indeed, lol indeed.

I remember people saying this in the Excadrill era. Sure there is a 100% counter, but more often than not that counter is completely out of place on your team. If someone makes a hyper offense team based around choice specs gastrodon I will eat my words. But I don't think that will happen.

[Immoral Wombat]

I was messing around with UU's a bit because someone has to, and I noticed that Cobalion got Stealth Rock from the new tutors. I started to run this set on my rain team over Skarmory, and it worked surprisingly well:

248 HP / 224 Def / 36 Spd
31/31/31/31/31/30 (for HP Ice)
Impish / Leftovers / Justified

-Close Combat
-HP Ice
-Stealth Rock
-Roar/Taunt

Note that this set has more physical and special defense than Skarmory, as well as higher attacking stats and speed. The ev's make sure Cobalion outspeeds neutral base 80's (most notably Dragonite), while defense gets an extra point from the Impish nature and the HP is a leftovers number. This leaves Cobalion at 385/216/385/194/180/260.

Some calcs (made with DougJustDoug's damage calculator). Work is slow as hell, so I got a bit carried away.


Defensive:

...

---

252+ Choice Band Haxorus Outrage: 28.1% - 33.2%
252+ Choice Band Haxorus Aqua Tail: 28.3% - 33.5%
252+ Choice Band Haxorus Aqua Tail in rain: 42.3% - 49.9%
252+ Choice Band Haxorus Brick Break: 47.3% - 56.1%
252+ Choice Band Haxorus Superpower: 75.3% - 88.8%
252+ Choice Band Haxorus Earthquake: 62.9% - 74.3%

252+ Choice Band Dragonite Outrage: 26.5% - 31.2%
252+ Choice Band Dragonite Waterfall: 23.4% - 27.8%
252+ Choice Band Dragonite Waterfall in rain: 35.1% - 41.3%
252+ Choice Band Dragonite Fire Punch/Brick Break: 44.2% - 51.9%
252+ Choice Band Dragonite Earthquake: 58.7% - 69.1%

252+ Life Orb Salamence Outrage: 23.1% - 27.3%
252+ Life Orb Salamence Earthquake: 51.4% - 60.8%
4 Life Orb Salamence Fire Blast: 82.6% - 97.7%
4 Life Orb Salamence Fire Blast in rain: 41% - 48.8%
176+ Life Orb Salamance Draco Meteor: 46.5% - 54.8%
100 Life Orb Salamance Brick Break: 31.7% - 37.4%
176+ Life Orb Salamance Fire Blast: 106% - 125.2%
176+ Life Orb Salamance Fire Blast in rain: 53.5% - 63.4%

252+ Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor: 53.8% - 63.6%
252+ Life Orb Hydreigon Focus Blast/Fire Blast: 123.6% - 145.5%
252+ Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast in rain: 61.8% - 73.2%
0 Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower: 37.4% - 44.2%

252+ Life Orb Breloom Technician 3 * Bullet seed: 20.3% - 24.2%
252+ Life Orb Breloom Technician 5 * Bullet seed: 33.8% - 40.3%
252+ Life Orb Breloom Technician Mach Punch: 44.2% - 53%

252 Leftovers/Choice Scarf Magnezone Thunderbolt: 53% - 62.6%
252 Leftovers/Choice Scarf Magnezone Thunder: 67% - 79%
252 Leftovers/Choice Scarf Magnezone HP Fire: 52.5% - 61.8%

252 Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat: 81% - 95.6%

252 Life Orb Landorus Earthquake: 66% - 78.4%
252 Life Orb Landorus Sand Force Earthquake in sand: 85.7% - 101.3%
252 Choice Scarf Landorus Earthquake: 51.4% - 60.8%
252 Choice Scarf Landorus Sand Force Earthquake in sand: 66% - 77.9%

252 Choice Scarf Landorus-T Earthquake: 56.6% - 67%

0 Toxic Orb Gliscor Earthquake: 33.2% - 39.5%

Offensive:

...

---

Close Combat vs. 36/0 +2 Haxorus: 42.7% - 50.7%
HP Ice vs. 36/0 +2 Haxorus: 37.1% - 43.7%

HP Ice vs. 0/4 +2 Dragonite: 27.2% - 32.2%
HP Ice vs. 0/4 Dragonite: 52% - 61.9%

HP Ice vs 0/0- Salamence: 67.7% - 79.8%

Close Combat vs. 4/0 Hydreigon: 79.1% - 93.9%

Close Combat vs. 36/0 Magnezone: 72.4% - 85.5%

Close Combat vs. 4/0 Terakion: 79.6% - 94.4%
Close Combat vs. 4/0 -1 Terakion: 120.4% - 141.4%

HP Ice vs. 0/0 Landorus: 63.9% - 75.2%

HP Ice vs. 0/0 Landorus-T: 63.9% - 75.2%

HP Ice vs. 252/0 Gliscor: 59.9% - 71.2%

Anyway, my consensus is that it's really surprisingly good, but the lack of recovery does put it behind Skarmory on most cases. Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Forretress and Bronzong already cover most of the niches Cobalion has. If you run a balanced or offensive team and you want an alternative to Skarmory that doesn't bleed all your momentum, by all means try it out, but be sure that you will be merely checking the things Skarmory fully counters. If you want an alternative to Skarmory that can stay around for long battles, give up and use Skarmory.

[casey90]

So I brought this up before but I'll say it again, Sub-Roost Kyurem is a monster on Rain teams, if he has toxic spikes support your halfway to GG already. Roost and Earth Power were the two exact things kyurem needed to function well in rain. And in the rain, his typing is actually a blessing and he hit's stupidly hard.

[Masttershake]

Originally Posted by Fat IcyMan28

If you take boosts into account, then that changes things. Obviously Mence will outdamage Hydreigon in that case. Personally, I think being able to hit hard on the special side is more important than hitting the physical side hard in terms of wallbreaking. Hippo, Gliscor, Skarm, Forry, etc are all prominent members of stall and can take pretty strong physical hits. But for the special end of the spectrum, there really isn't anything other than Blissey that can universally handle special attackers (maybe SpD Jirachi, but fire attacks hurt). So if you can take down Blissey, it becomes alot harder for them to handle special threats, whereas losing Forry can be remedied between the remaining physical walls.

Really, it's a matter of being able to smash your normal switch-ins hard the first time, because your opponent won't fall for it a second. All Hydreigon has to do is kill lure and kill Blissey, and then nothing stands in its way. Salamence can get past Hippo, sure...but there's still Gliscor and Skarmory left. In any case we're arguing apples and oranges. Both can wallbreak, but neither really outclasses the other.

Expect dat base 99 speed which is prob why I dislike him so much.

[Mamo.Pert]

So Keldeo has arrived now, so just waiting for Zapdos Hidden Ability to come.. Zapdos + Keldeo would then be an excellent synergy, which even special walls like Blissey and Chansey wont be able to block thanks due to secret sword. Zapdos And Keldeo both covers each other weakness (bar Psychic) and offensively both are pretty strong and in rain, One has Thunder and other has boosted Surf. Thundurus wont fit in the synergy because it has neither bulk, nor Roost and not even Heat Wave (Focus Blast sucks). Moreover Lightning Rod's +1 Sp. Attk boost beats Volt Absorb Heal on a non bulky pokemon and keldeo will attract many electric attacks. Means BW2 has relaesed one element of the long awaited core, just waiting for the other one now.. And No, Emolga and Poliwrath both sucks.

Kyurem cool boss. The only main story legend to ever fall In UU and then stick to borderline for the rest of the metagame. The two new forms are basically awesome revenge for the humiliation caused earlier. Both are insanely offensive, offensive than even Rayquaza if you dont want to go mixed. Deoxys A may have speed, but these new forms have same attack with awesome bulk. Really Ubers is fun now. Even without these two forms, Original Kyurem has become the star of OU with the new Roost And earth power. I have seen a sudden increase in its usage, gonna reach Top 10 soon, I am sure..

One more thing, With Rain becoming the main flushing factor of the present metagame, I don't see any threat with Excadrill. Why don't he get a comeback in OU. Seriously I have always liked him and his spinning capabilities, which are unmatched in the entire OU. I was seriously disappointed when he was banned, and I am looking forward for his OU return.

[PK Gaming]

Originally Posted by Fat Scarfwynaut

Lol is this gonna be Thundurus again, where I use a full counter and rarely have problems while everyone else is having trouble checking it. Just shows you what a little defense can do.

Lol indeed, lol indeed.

What exactly is your counter? Nothing can counter Thundurus-T in OU without a little bit of luck. I'm not saying its broken, but the only way to reliably deal with Thundurus-T is to check it with faster pokemon / priority (Mamoswine!) and scarfers. Straight up using defensive walls to counter it in general is pointless, because if it's NP you're fucked. Especially if Thundurus is using Lum Berry. If it's choiced it's just going to Volt Switch out of there and leave you at a disadvantage. And don't even get my started on the Agility set, which absolutely dismantles teams lategame. Worst of all, Volt Absorb is arguably even better than prankster (outside of priority T-wave on the mixed attacker set, prankster wasn't that useful on Thundurus) since it lets him switch into electric attacks and it makes him immune to T-wave which I think is a pretty big deal.

It's my least favorite Pokemon to face in OU right now.

In other news, SubCM Jirachi is a boss. It checks Tornadus-T, sets up on Ferrothorn and a bunch of walls, and sweeps teams if left unchecked.

Out of curiosity, how have you guys been handling Tornadus-T? I've been using an offensive rain team my last few matches, and I have to say that it is tough switching into it more than a few times as STAB LO Hurricane, even when resisted, still hits hard. Furthermore, because of Regenerator, revenge killing Tornadus-T becomes more difficult as it can switch out and back in without much concern for Stealth Rock and the like.

On another note, Jirachi seems to be more or less the most effective counter to Tornadus-T. I've been using Rotom-W to switch into it, but alas, it gets 3HKOed by Hurricane after Stealth Rock even with full HP investment. Since I am not running Jirachi on my team, I am usually forced to sack something and try to scare it out, but as mentioned before, the strategy is futile in the long run because of its Regenerator ability.

Any thoughts?

Nicely put Lelouch. Aside from Keldeo, Tornadus-T was the biggest boon rain got. I'm glad you bring up the LO set, because I shake my head every time I see the Specs set. LO's weaker, but its a lot more versatile (Superpower always OHKOes Tyranitar, and you outspeed scarftar) and access to u-turn makes it hard to check. Also regen basically eliminates LO's biggest downfall, so there's that too. When GF mentioned it was bulkier, they were probably referring to its ability which makes it stick around A LOT longer. (I love how Regen basically negates SR)

I've been using Hurricane / U-turn / Superpower / Rain Dance and its been kicking ass.

[Lavos Spawn]

Speaking of Thundurus-T, I predict that full rain stall will go way down in usage (thank god) due to the NP set being able to set up on anything and destroy everything.

[alexwolf]

Originally Posted by Fat PK Gaming

What exactly is your counter? Nothing can counter Thundurus-T in OU without a little bit of luck. I'm not saying its broken, but the only way to reliably deal with Thundurus-T is to check it with faster pokemon / priority (Mamoswine!) and scarfers. Straight up using defensive walls to counter it in general is pointless, because if it's NP you're fucked. Especially if Thundurus is using Lum Berry. If it's choiced it's just going to Volt Switch out of there and leave you at a disadvantage. And don't even get my started on the Agility set, which absolutely dismantles teams lategame. Worst of all, Volt Absorb is arguably even better than prankster (outside of priority T-wave on the mixed attacker set, prankster wasn't that useful on Thundurus) since it lets him switch into electric attacks and it makes him immune to T-wave which I think is a pretty big deal.

It's my least favorite Pokemon to face in OU right now.

In other news, SubCM Jirachi is a boss. It checks Tornadus-T, sets up on Ferrothorn and a bunch of walls, and sweeps teams if left unchecked.

NP Thundurus-T has one counter... Latios! It can come into anything and ohko, while also having Recover to stick around. He can also deal with the Agility set if at full life, since Modest LO HP Ice does max 86% to 4 HP Latios. Choiced sets are also dealth with quite nicely, but if the opposing team has Scizor or Ttar, you better be careful.

Originally Posted by Fat PK Gaming

Nicely put Lelouch. Aside from Keldeo, Tornadus-T was the biggest boon rain got. I'm glad you bring up the LO set, because I shake my head every time I see the Specs set. LO's weaker, but its a lot more versatile (Superpower always OHKOes Tyranitar, and you outspeed scarftar) and access to u-turn makes it hard to check. Also regen basically eliminates LO's biggest downfall, so there's that too. When GF mentioned it was bulkier, they were probably referring to its ability which makes it stick around A LOT longer. (I love how Regen basically negates SR)

I've been using Hurricane / U-turn / Superpower / Rain Dance and its been kicking ass.

Specs Tornadus-T can get many ohkoes-2hkoes that LO Tornadus-T can't though, and is even more difficult to take down, because of no LO recoil.

Another solid counter is Zapdos, which also has reliable recovery! Oh and specially defensive Skarmory.

[PK Gaming]

NP Thundurus-T has one counter... Latios! It can come into anything and ohko, while also having Recover to stick around. He can also deal with the Agility set if at full life, since Modest LO HP Ice does max 86% to 4 HP Latios. Choiced sets are also dealth with quite nicely, but if the opposing team has Scizor or Ttar, you better be careful.

Latios is not a counter, it's a check.

[alexwolf]

Originally Posted by Fat PK Gaming

Latios is not a counter, it's a check.

It is a counter to the NP set. It can come into any move, outspeed and ohko. And why did you put the sentence twice?

[superbadd]

^ What are you talking about? +2 Life orb Hidden power ice OHKO's Latios if I'm not mistaken. Even w/o the boost it does over half damage with a life orb.

[alexwolf]

Originally Posted by Fat superbadd

^ What are you talking about? +2 Life orb Hidden power ice OHKO's Latios if I'm not mistaken.

Latios outspeeds and ohkoes?