BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Jirabi]

Originally Posted by Fat superbadd

If you thought scizor was annoying, just wait till genesect continues ripping up the ladder.

I swear this thing is annoying me to the death, !%@%!@%, the current team which i had much success laddering with had trouble dealing with amazing BoltBeam U-turn coverage

[Ricky Horror]

I find the newest Bug/Steel of OU, not as annoying I foreseen. Easily walled by a few favorites and I enjoy running Volcarona to cinder that minor annoyance. lol

[X5Dragon]

I think in the next month Genesect will reach usage similar to Rotoms and th rise of Ice shard users and SR leads as well. The pretty much the only way survive offensively in OU these days, sash your priorities and keep those rocks.

[FrostFire]

eh, I haven't actually had too much problem with Genesect (though I do run rain stall, alongside specially defensive Jirachi...). I mean, it's really good as a scarfer, but overall I think people are hyping it a bit too much.

Firstly, Genesect is so damn predictable. Basically, whenever you fight it, this is what you know:

It will have three out of these four moves:
-Bug Buzz
-Thunderbolt
-Ice Beam
-Flamethrower

It will have one of these two moves:
-U-turn
-Rock Polish

You can even simplify this equation further by simply saying that Genesect will always carry both Thunderbolt and Ice Beam, as those two moves are pretty necessary in terms of coverage. Now, I know that you could have all four attacks + life orb, or focus sash or something - the moveset doesn't have to be Rock Polish or Choice Scarf. But here's the thing: No matter what Genesect you're facing, they're all substantively similar. That is, all Genesects basically have 4 out of the above 6 attacks, pretty well always - and that means their counters are all the same. Blissey, Chansey, Heatran, Gastrodon, Volcarona, Specially Defensive Jirachi in Rain etc. These pokemon are basically universal Checks/ Counters to any Genesect. Sure, you could run that random HP [ground] for Heatran - but it'd be a gimmick, and you'd be walled by a whole lot more, thanks to giving up a far superior coverage move.

Now, don't get me wrong. Genesect is awesome. Fantastic. The bee's knees. It's just that, because everyone's been hyping it so much, I feel that I needed to weigh in on the other side of the equation, and take the role of Mr. Negative. Also, I keep on reading about Genesect's versatility - People. Genesect is many things, but versatile is not one of them. It's 2 major moveset options - Rock Polish and Choice Scarf - are stopped by the exact same things, and carry the same attacks bar one move (U-turn/ Rock Polish).

I feel like I've been too mean to Genesect, so I'll also say that Scarf (IMO it's best set) is amazing. With Download, even uninvested U-turn is solid, and it can potentially make it's Special Attacks scary. It's a fantastic 'mon, but like all pokemon, it has it's limitations.

Well, I suppose Arceus may be the exception to the 'all pokemon have limitations' thing, but you get the point :p

[Danger Mouse]

Nobody is saying Genesect doesn't have limitatons, just that it's set to be a major force in OU...and it will be. Just because you run a playstyle that Genesect performs poorly against doesn't make it any less deadly...there's plenty of stuff that doesn't work well against rain stall but still works great in other settings.

[Tobes]

So I finally tried something different from my standard rain offense: weatherless Deo-D offense. It's been performing decently, apart from a weakness to Bulk Up Pokemon, and at a glance I should probably try to alleviate my Keldeo weakness as well. (Deo-D / SD Luke / DD LumNite / Jolly Scarfmence / Magnezone / LO Weavile). Lucario seems to be a sorely underrated threat in this environment. Even with the release of Genesect, an ExtremeSpeed sweep isn't difficult to pull off against your average rain team, with so many targets that Luke can destroy with some hazard support and at +2 (Politoed, Thundurus-T, Tornadus-T, Ferrothorn, Jolteon, to name a few). Gliscor and Landorus-T are enough of a pain that I'm running Ice Punch over Bullet Punch though. It helps that Scarf Tyranitar seems to be dropping in usage, but Terrakion can still be annoying.

As for the Dragon-offense portion, I've been taking advantage of a Dream World tactic: forcing Genesect to revenge kill a Dragon-type with Ice Beam, allowing Chandelure Magnezone to trap it and OHKO with no fear of eating a U-turn or Flamethrower when switching in. There are still plenty of Scizor and Ferrothorn littering the metagame too, so Zone has been putting in consistently good work for me, though I'm considering switching to a Choice Specs or Scarf set for various reasons.

Weavile is really cool. It's surprisingly versatile in this metagame and can deal with a large number of issues, although the fact that it's basically a walking Genesect U-turn target can make things unpleasant. Having to pick and choose between Ice Punch and Night Slash is also annoying. I feel that Ice Punch is a necessary STAB (so that you can effortlessly outpace and destroy Tornadus-T and Thundurus-T, etc), but not being able to Night Slash Deoxys-D and Starmie can be pretty annoying. I could drop Low Kick but I kind of loathe the idea since that opens me up to Heatran and Terrakion.

On the list of things I intend to try at some point: Neo VoltTurn (I'm thinking Deo-D + Gengar + Weavile + Scizor + Genesect + Thundurus-T, maybe), Trapper VoltTurn (whatever lineup abuses ST Gothitelle most efficiently), hail (seems very anti-meta atm and the rise of Scarftoed makes maneuvering Abomasnow much easier), sun (I've played around with this a bit already but I just really fucking love Giga Drain Venusaur), Sandslash sand stall, and who knows what else.

Any experiences from hail players in particular in this metagame? The archetype has always interested me but I've never put much effort into exploring it because I was generally more interested in the slew of intriguing things the other weathers had to offer.

[shofly12]

I'm not a really experienced Hail user (had been running mostly sun this generation) but it's actually been working out quite well for me. I think the thing that drives most people away from hail is the sheer number of weaknesses that generic hail teams need to cover. Abombasnow itself has a ridiculous number of weaknesses, and a lot of them are common.

However, I've found that running hail as a way to increase residual damage (shutting down lefties, etc.) and canceling other weather is nice-but not necessarily enough to warrant hail "good." Running the hail move as a surprise on weatherless teams has been working quite well though. People always are willing to sack their weather inducer if they see they're up against a weatherless team, and almost no one runs hail, so all of a sudden, weather teams lose their advantage. Just my 2 cents though.

[alkinesthetase]

Neo VoltTurn (I'm thinking Deo-D + Gengar + Weavile + Scizor + Genesect + Thundurus-T, maybe)

gotta say, i'm already seeing an issue with fire typing here >_> 2 4x weaknesses (in your volt-turn core no less; whenever i run volt-turn the partners have to resist each other's weaknesses or i'm not satisfied) plus a 2x weakness on one of the frailest mons in UU doesn't sound too great. if only scizor and genesect didn't both have such a huge ass fire weakness, they'd make a fabulous pair. i really wish i could run them side by side T_T (but i love running specially defensive jirachi with uturn and its fire weakness often ends up ruling out both of them lol)

regardless though, props on the use of weavile, it has so much class. its speed really distinguishes it from mamo and nearly everything else in OU, seeing as it's fast enough to outrun scarftar and tornadus-T (at the cost of a 4x fighting weakness, weakness to uturn, and stealth rock weakness lol)

[Ricky Horror]

The metagame has been extremely shifty the last few months, yet Rain teams remain solid... Seeing Politoed and Tornadus-T plus fillers 2,3,4,5 is reminding me of the Excadrill Era. I must say for myself I enjoy seeing these teams, as my team scarcely losses to them. Genesect and my fair little pony have become jokes in my eyes.

[Skore]

Sigh...if only Weavile could learn U-Turn.

I have been having decent success with a variety of Sun teams and as usual Magic Bounce Espeon continues to be under-rated in both ability and offensive power which has netted me quite a few wins.

My main issue with hail is the Bullet Punch weakness. It's nice for Hail that Scizor has seen a drop in it's usage but he's still there enough to matter.

[Lavos Spawn]

agree with user Skore, sun is real in current metagame...don't know if anyone else has tried this (besides august) but i'm currently playing around with a lineup of tales / gene / duggy / venu / xatu / volc-victini and it's #1 on PS ladder atm so yeah

i'm favoring victini slightly because having two u-turners + dugtrio is really unfair and i don't think i have lost a game with my current lineup bar a freeze and a crit on two consecutive turns lol

[LucaroarkZ]

@ Skore, Hail isn't completely Scizor weak, actually. First off, it's probably a pretty bad idea to stack Steel weaknesses on top of Steel weaknesses all the time. In addition, you should pretty much always be running something that can beat Scizor - Tentacruel, Heatran, Jirachi (with Fire Punch), Latias, and hell, Emeral's hail team even uses Volcarona.

In my opinion, hail is actually pretty good. In particular, Abomasnow can hit all opposing weather starters for super effective damage, which really makes it simple to win the weather war if your prediction is spot-on. Kyurem Blizzspamming is always fun once you've won the weather war, and damn do Kyurem's Blizzards hit like a truck (they OHKO Dragonite through Multiscale!). I pretty much always run Tentacruel on my hail teams, and the Toxic Spikes Tentacruel sets makes it easier to wear down opposing Pokemon, especially ones that avoid the OHKO from Kyurem's Blizzard. Snow Cloak abuse isn't really that good from my experience, though, and when I find myself using Snow Cloak abusers I find myself compounding Steel weaknesses.

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat LucaroarkZ

@ Skore, Hail isn't completely Scizor weak, actually. First off, it's probably a pretty bad idea to stack Steel weaknesses on top of Steel weaknesses all the time. In addition, you should pretty much always be running something that can beat Scizor - Tentacruel, Heatran, Jirachi (with Fire Punch), Latias, and hell, Emeral's hail team even uses Volcarona.

In my opinion, hail is actually pretty good. In particular, Abomasnow can hit all opposing weather starters for super effective damage, which really makes it simple to win the weather war if your prediction is spot-on. Kyurem Blizzspamming is always fun once you've won the weather war, and damn do Kyurem's Blizzards hit like a truck (they OHKO Dragonite through Multiscale!). I pretty much always run Tentacruel on my hail teams, and the Toxic Spikes Tentacruel sets makes it easier to wear down opposing Pokemon, especially ones that avoid the OHKO from Kyurem's Blizzard. Snow Cloak abuse isn't really that good from my experience, though, and when I find myself using Snow Cloak abusers I find myself compounding Steel weaknesses.

you're just assuming hail is good because abomasnow can hit every weather starter for super effective damage. ok, i can run thunderbolt on my tyranitar, doesn't make it good. btw if you're using eq abomasnow (only variant that would hit tales for "super effective damage") then 1) you're a noob and 2) you're going to be revenge killed by obvious dugtrio sun lol. and also, scizor is fairly common on both sand and rain, so ok, let's say ttar/poli switches into your abomasnow, you predict correctly and ohko with wood hammer. recoil is going to leave you at maybe 55%. now band sciz switches in, you want to preserve your hail and switch out instinctively, it used pursuit and kills you, you just lost the weather war, gg.

also if anyone is dumb enough to switch their weather starter directly into abomasnow they're probably not a great example to use in this thread. there is a very good reason for hail being the least used weather. i hope you know what it is now.

[Skore]

My problem is that apart from Blizzard spam, Hail just doesn't have enough going for it to make it worth building your team around when you compare it to the other weathers.

Don't get me wrong, Ice is thematically my favorite type but Hail offers no secondary benefit. Maybe if it upped physical defense of Ice types, or increased their speed or did anything else useful to lift Ice Types out of the slump they're in but we're stuck with it how it is and unfortunately it fails to measure up.

[SpecsX]

The reason that hail isn't used is because of Abomasnow's SEVEN weaknesses and SR weakness. There are also no hail mased abilities that singlehandedly turn mons into deadly sweepers with no setup, like rain, sun, or sandstorm.

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat SpecsX

The reason that hail isn't used is because of Abomasnow's SEVEN weaknesses and SR weakness. There are also no hail mased abilities that singlehandedly turn mons into deadly sweepers with no setup, like rain, sun, or sandstorm.

are you forgetting master walrein

but yeah he's right, hail does not have any excadrill, venusaur, or kingdra (nvm that two of those are banned, you get my point)

[Joeyboy]

Hail, for me, has never really had the same appeal as the other weather; specifically, like others are saying, because it doesn't really give benefits, merely makes your opponent play with a disadvantage of some kind. Granted that can be enough to win, I always found myself saying "Well yeah but why not use sand/rain/sun instead".

On an unrelated note, I'm finding Double Dancing Terrakion to be a very large threat in this metagame. With Sands SpDef boost Genesect goes from an annoying revenge killer to total set-up bait. Boosted Thunderbolt doesn't even 2hko if I remember correctly. It also seems people have forgotten about Terrakions Dancing prowess as Rock Polish and LO can shred through a LOT of common offensive teams at the moment.

Seriously with a little passive damage Terrakion doesn't need a +2 Atk boost to ravage offensive teams.

I've even used a Sub/Salac Terrakion to great effect, it combined Terrakions already awesome Sub set with an opportune speed boost if needed, very cool.

[LucaroarkZ]

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

you're just assuming hail is good because abomasnow can hit every weather starter for super effective damage. ok, i can run thunderbolt on my tyranitar, doesn't make it good. btw if you're using eq abomasnow (only variant that would hit tales for "super effective damage") then 1) you're a noob and 2) you're going to be revenge killed by obvious dugtrio sun lol. and also, scizor is fairly common on both sand and rain, so ok, let's say ttar/poli switches into your abomasnow, you predict correctly and ohko with wood hammer. recoil is going to leave you at maybe 55%. now band sciz switches in, you want to preserve your hail and switch out instinctively, it used pursuit and kills you, you just lost the weather war, gg.

also if anyone is dumb enough to switch their weather starter directly into abomasnow they're probably not a great example to use in this thread. there is a very good reason for hail being the least used weather. i hope you know what it is now.

Okay, I've actually used Earthquake Abomasnow before, and it's not as bad as you make it out to be. It doesn't just hit Ninetales, but it also hits Heatran who otherwise basically switches in on Abomasnow for free. Also, no offense but Thunderbolt Tyranitar is the dumbest example I've ever heard of - I'm almost certain a CB Tyranitar's Crunch does more damage to Politoed than Thunderbolt.

I never said hail was the best weather. I only said it was good. Clearly rain is the most potent weather. Hail seems bad in theory, but it's actually good in practice. Actually use hail before you say it's bad.

[Ricky Horror]

My personal problem with hail is that its too limited to team members and always insanely weak to Volcarona+Stealth Rocks. Aboma is still a boss as dedicated hail players have proven.

[Electrolyte]

Hail doesn't suck- it's a good weather to play, and it has a lot going for it- extreme offensive capabilities, pretty strong abusers, and useful passive damage. It's just outclassed. If you compare it to-
~Rain, which everyone thinks is leagues ahead in terms of usefulness- water types get a +2 attack and sp attack boost when they use their STABs, and fire moves do 1/2 to everyone. Rain also has a myriad of options to use- especially becuase water types are one of the most flexible types in the game. With a lot of awesome abilities that are distributed far such as Rain Dish or Hydration, Rain definitely has a lot going for it.
~Sun, which has about the same things as Rain- only, it strengthens fire types and weakens water types. However, Sun types emphasizes much more on the abilities that aid it- mainly Solar Power and Chlorophyll. Grass types and Fire types find heaven in the sun- where they can spam fire moves and Solarbeam without having to worry about resistances.
~Sand is a bit different- yet still better. It receives a x1.5 special defense boost- which turns even Terrakion into a fair special tank. Another awesome thing Sand gets is Tyranitar- who is good enough to stand his own ground even without weather.

What does Hail have? Passive damage that more often than not hurts half the team, and Blizzard.

[Cinccino]

Oh lord the metagame becomes incredibly fast with the rise of speedbosting sets like RP Genesect, Agility Thundurus, and Double Dance Terrakion.

Sun is a good weather to use now, and Sunny Day Tales is really anti-meta at the moment. I even use the old ScarfTran with Sunny Day in the last slot for emergency Chlorophyll sweep (really, Heatran only needs Fire Blast, Earth Power, and HP Ice to be effective).
And they are really fun to use. =)

[SpecsX]

I have used hail, and while it's amazing to fire off blizzards, it's hard to switch in Aboma with his common weaknesses. Gamefreak gives him great stats all around, and dumps that typing on him... But still, even sand, which could be argued is worse than hail with Drill and Chomp gone, is better by virtue of Ttar's bulk and resistances. Even Hippo has great bulk and reliable recovery.

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat SpecsX

But still, even sand, which could be argued is worse than hail with Drill and Chomp gone

what...

sand will always be superior to hail until hail gives all ice-types a 1.5 sdef boost and hail gets stuff equivalent to landorus, stoutland, terrakion, etc. and please don't bring up ice body because that ability is only given to like 3 semi-viable pokemon and they're all worthless in ou.

[SpecsX]

There are 2 Rock types in OU, Hail gets Kyurem and pretty much anything that learns Blizzard. Kyurem can OHKO Dnite THROUGH Multiscale, and Ice Body? Yeah, we have Stallrein. I admit it's hard to set up, but once it is...

[alkinesthetase]

i'm not seeing it. you actually have to use abomasnow to run hail... should be self-explanatory where the disadvantages begin. in terms of where they'd be without a weather ability, tyranitar is by far the king, and abomasnow is the crap at the bottom in RU and NU where the selection of good mons is so limited that people are willing to put up with actually using an ice type on their teams (exception: mamoswine). rain has the advantage of a stupefyingly long list of abusers and sun has a fairly long list as well. sand's list of abusers is relatively short but it has power where it counts (sand veil gliscor, landorus-I, sandslash, terrakion). i don't see where hail gets any competitive advantage, except that it's NOT any of the other 3 weathers. sure you have kyurem but kyurem can do all the same sets with ice beam and still get the job done

and lol stallrein. rain can do the same thing except with the far superior tentacruel, not to mention the weather itself is stronger. and if you don't wanna mess with a weather dependent staller you can just run substalling gliscor