BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[SpecsX]

The reason Melly can't go mixed as well as other mons is because of Relic Song eating up a moveslot. This gives it a horrible case of 4MSS...or should I say 3MSS? Not just that, but Meleotta reverts to Aria Forme every time it switches out, requiring the use of Relic Song again to go physical. Then you have to choose 3 moves that combine to hit physically and specially. It has a decent physical movepool, but it's hard to abuse it. Meleotta isn't one of those mons that can be just thrown onto a team either, unlike Keldeo or Jirachi.

[Lavos Spawn]

i guess a set of relic song/close combat/thunder/shadow claw could function pretty well as a mixed sweeper in the rain, since thunder breaks through skarmory and shadow claw beats gengar. however, there's still the issue of gliscor and bulky waters, who both wall this thing to hell and back. relic song itself actually does some pretty nice damage, but it's essentially a one-use move, so not great for sweeping.

i wish this thing was like shaymin in that you could just change it to meloetta-p whenever you wanted...then it might actually be usable.

[Ricky Horror]

Used Reuniclus for a few rounds and honestly Tyranitar and Reuniclus are murdered by Genesect. It being on so many teams at the time I couldn't comfortably run Reuniclus, also with Scizor roaming some corners of the metagame.

[Jimbon]

Meloetta is a pretty interesting Pokemon, the only team I've really seen much use of it is ginganinja's team and even then, this team is pretty much built around Meloetta. Unlike a lot of the new BW2 additions such as Keldeo, Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, etc. Meloetta is something that needs team support to make it work. Unlike the others, when you can just throw Keldeo into any team and it works well. The main issue with Meloetta I feel is that it doesn't really have a certain niche for what it does. What I mean is that Meloetta can perform a number of different sets due to its great movepool but at best, they're pretty subpar. The main issue is that you really need to transform Meloetta into pirouette mode before it can actually accomplish anything, meaning you need to sacrifice one moveslot to make this happen. As a result, you're only left with three moves after that, and picking those moves is an issue, as you will always find yourself being walled by something else.

What Meloetta does have over other mixed attackers is the great bulk. Base 130 Special Defense makes Calm Mind Meloetta a usable set, boosting both of Meloetta's fantastic special stats. Meloetta also has a pretty cool typing, being part Psychic and immune to Ghost type moves. It's a great offensive check for Spinblockers such as Gengar, who Meloetta can use as set up fodder, or just straight up fire off high power Psychics. With different forms of Meloetta, it also heavily opens up many other options for Meloetta. With a great movepool including Psychic, Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Shadow Claw, Close Combat, U-Turn, Perish Song, Calm Mind, Heal Bell, Thunderbolt, Trick and elemental punches Meloetta can perform many different roles even with the different forms. One thing that does annoy me is the lack of Recovery, I at least thought Meloetta might get Wish to make a defensive set more viable, but that is not the case. It's also a shame because Meloetta has a very interesting defensive typing, being immune to Ghost, while also taking neutral damage from Fighting moves.

[DrDLO]

Originally Posted by Fat 2sly4u

The thing is that 2HKOing Dragonite isn't enough for Shiftry because he'll get demolished from any of his attacks. There's a reason that Venusaur is the king of Chlorophyll sweepers and it's because he as enough bulk to take a hit as he sets up Growth. Shiftry and Victreebel, the only others I would consider using, will meet a swift end if they try to set up in this metagame and as you said their power is underwhelming without a boost. Even if they somehow manage to boost up, they still get destroyed by priority (both have a chance of being OHKOd by Scizor's Bullet Punch after SR, 100% after SR and LO recoil).

Oh, I do agree with you. I'm just suggesting an alternative set if someone wanted to use a completely physical shiftry. HP ice isn't gonna OHKO through multiscale and with the 30% flinch chance you at least have a chance to take it out before it can attack you (barring e-speed--though hp ice vs rock slide doesn't matter at that point). I also agree...much rather use venusaur due to its decent bulk. I just tried shiftry because it seemed fun to use. Just a suggestion. Not really into going into a debate on how shiftry is the end-all-be-all chlorophyll sweeper...because its not lol

[Danger Mouse]

I've tried Meloetta and found it to be pretty effective if you play to its strengths...sadly it isn't getting as much love as it deserves.

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat Danger Mouse

I've tried Meloetta and found it to be pretty effective if you play to its strengths...sadly it isn't getting as much love as it deserves.

what do you mean by meloetta's "strengths"? the only real strength it has is phenomenal special defense, so if by playing to its strengths you mean a calm mind set i feel that jirachi still outclasses it in that regard.

[alkinesthetase]

@danger mouse: every analysis on this site says that =P

but more seriously, meloetta has like a bajillion sets, just that there's somebody else to do nearly all of them. bulky specially defensive meloetta still has its glaring pursuit weakness and relatively few resistances it can come in on (immune to ghost brings with it a neutrality to fighting, and that fighting resistance is one of the ONLY things the psychic typing has going for it), as opposed to other classic OU spdefenders like jirachi and latias. specs is a lot more effective on faster mons like tornadus where as meloetta is relatively slow, and among psychic types, there are specs wearers with better coverage (starmie), better stats (keldeo, tornadus), or shadow tag (cough goth).

physical all-out-offensive meloetta has some astounding qualities in OU (stab CC and return gives very solid coverage, and it also has a ridiculous 128 speed) but has the crushing flaw of needing to use relic song which means you can only switch in once (due to sleep clause, you can't use relic song to transform again after reverting to aria when you switch out) and you can't use choice items (because you'd be locked into relic song)

the best sets meloetta has are CM (due to its excellent satk AND sdef) and mixed, but even then there are flaws. meloetta is slow for an offensive CMer (compare to keldeo or latios) and lacks recovery for being used as a defensive/subCMer (jirachi's wishCM and subCM sets, latias which can run recover AND sub on the same set because of its great neutral coverage with dragon stab). mixed meloetta has to put up with either one good attacking stat and one crappy one (eg work up... 128 in one stat, 77 in the other) or trying to cycle relic song, which due to current sleep clause implementations is (iirc) illegal.

ironically, if relic song had no chance of sleep, it would probably be a better move. it would also be nice if meloetta held forms after switching out. those two changes alone, however minute, could have massively improved its viability.

[ClubbingSealCub]

Originally Posted by Fat alkinesthetase

physical all-out-offensive meloetta has some astounding qualities in OU (stab CC and return gives very solid coverage, and it also has a ridiculous 128 speed) but has the crushing flaw of needing to use relic song which means you can only switch in once (due to sleep clause, you can't use relic song to transform again after reverting to aria when you switch out) and you can't use choice items (because you'd be locked into relic song)

Relic Song only has a 20% chance to sleep, taking Serene Grace into account. If you're "unlucky" enough to get the sleep on the first Relic Song, you've just put one of Meloetta's checks/counters to sleep, anyway.

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat ClubbingSealCub

Relic Song only has a 20% chance to sleep, taking Serene Grace into account. If you're "unlucky" enough to get the sleep on the first Relic Song, you've just put one of Meloetta's checks/counters to sleep, anyway.

still, that's 20%. not nearly enough to rely on, especially in a clutch situation. i wish sleep clause didn't exist just for meloetta, because then it might have a purpose spamming relic song. unfortunately, that's never going to happen, and despite just reading through the entire meloetta analysis i can't find a single set that isn't outclassed by something else or just flat-out useless.

[SpecsX]

You can use Relic Song until it's out of PP, as long it doesn't sleep something. After that, I don't know how it's handled by Sleep Clause.

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat SpecsX

You can use Relic Song until it's out of PP, as long it doesn't sleep something. After that, I don't know how it's handled by Sleep Clause.

another problem being that when you use relic song, meloetta changes from aria to pirouette forme, making all future relic songs considerably weaker than the first, because of the large drop in spatk. that's quite a frustrating mechanic.

[SpecsX]

Not only that, Meleotta reverts back to Meleotta-A upon switching out, so it's incredibly frustrating when you set up and are forced out.

[alkinesthetase]

another problem being that when you use relic song, meloetta changes from aria to pirouette forme, making all future relic songs considerably weaker than the first, because of the large drop in spatk. that's quite a frustrating mechanic.

well if you use relic song again it switches you back to aria. that's one of the best sets meloetta has going for it, the form-cycling mixed set (it's a really fun set). the idea is that you can switch between forms repeatedly and threaten out checks/counters to one form using the power of the other. unfortunately sleep clause means that using relic song repeatedly is not a good idea

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat alkinesthetase

well if you use relic song again it switches you back to aria. that's one of the best sets meloetta has going for it, the form-cycling mixed set (it's a really fun set). the idea is that you can switch between forms repeatedly and threaten out checks/counters to one form using the power of the other. unfortunately sleep clause means that using relic song repeatedly is not a good idea

didn't know that another relic song switched you back to aria forme...that's interesting. this also makes the in-site description for relic song completely misleading, someone needs to change that.

[Electrolyte]

either way, spamming Relic Song is never a good idea. If your opponent has some decently defensive ghost type pokemon, they can come in when you're in Piruette form- and wall you all day, because they are immune to CC and because all of Meloetta's other moves are hilariously weak. I think the CM set is still the best one for this exact reason. It takes a lot of prediction to play Mixloetta effectively- and a lot of players don't like it because the CM set is so much more reliable, even if the outcome is so much less. Mixloetta also has acute 4MSS- RS definitely has to be there, as does CC and Psychic. That only leaves on more moveslot- Ice Punch means weak to Jellicent in both formes, and Tbolt means weak to almost all ghost types in Piruette forme. Shadow Ball means weak to Sableye in Aria forme.

[alkinesthetase]

^ eh i wouldn't always run psychic. the set i preferred was

meloetta @ LO/ebelt
hasty 56 atk / 252 satk / 200 speed (outruns tornadus-T in pirouette which is all that matters really)
relic song
cc
thunder
hp ice (or ice punch, in which case swap atk and satk evs around)

it's nice to have stab and all but psychic is like one of the most useless stabs in the game and a rain-backed thunder will get way better SE coverage alongside hp ice. moreover, this set does not get walled by jellicent, as you noted, and you'd be surprised how much damage you can deal with a pirouette-form thunder (i think you can do a crapton to tornadus-T, for example). you won't be breaking down blisseys any time soon but offensive mons can be dented surprisingly deep, because thunder has a ton of power even off of only 77 base satk (which is why i tend to lean towards 252 satk instead of 252 atk - that maximizes the power of your thunder). for example you can actually 2hko gengar with your 252 EV 77 base thunder, and you outspeed it in pirouette so it can't 2hko you with focus blast (not to mention that if you're in rain, the odds of you hitting twice with thunder are way better than gengar hitting you twice with focus blast lol)

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat Electrolyte

either way, spamming Relic Song is never a good idea. If your opponent has some decently defensive ghost type pokemon, they can come in when you're in Piruette form- and wall you all day, because they are immune to CC and because all of Meloetta's other moves are hilariously weak. I think the CM set is still the best one for this exact reason. It takes a lot of prediction to play Mixloetta effectively- and a lot of players don't like it because the CM set is so much more reliable, even if the outcome is so much less. Mixloetta also has acute 4MSS- RS definitely has to be there, as does CC and Psychic. That only leaves on more moveslot- Ice Punch means weak to Jellicent in both formes, and Tbolt means weak to almost all ghost types in Piruette forme. Shadow Ball means weak to Sableye in Aria forme.

right, because there are a ton of ou-viable "decently defensive" ghost-type pokemon out there. actually, there's just two: jellicent and sableye. both are wrecked by thunder, which any self-respecting meloetta should never leave home without.

however, i'd agree that the cm set is the most effective in this metagame. base 130 special defense makes a +1 meloetta nearly unbreakable on the special side. of course, the physical side needs work, as stuff like cb terrakion can easily switch in on a cm and ohko, no problem. also, tyranitar hard walls purely special meloetta, which is quite the nuisance considering it's top 5 or 6 in usage. the underlying issue, however, is that cm meloetta is outclassed by cm jirachi in every single element besides special defense (and who cares about that? base 100 to base 130 isn't significant when you're boosting).

meloetta sure does have 4 moveslot syndrome - unfortunately, that's a malady that game freak is never going to cure, and meloetta will have to live with it, forever outclassed in every set by a different pokemon.

[Danger Mouse]

Originally Posted by Fat alkinesthetase

^ eh i wouldn't always run psychic. the set i preferred was

meloetta @ LO/ebelt
hasty 56 atk / 252 satk / 200 speed (outruns tornadus-T in pirouette which is all that matters really)
relic song
cc
thunder
hp ice (or ice punch, in which case swap atk and satk evs around)

it's nice to have stab and all but psychic is like one of the most useless stabs in the game and a rain-backed thunder will get way better SE coverage alongside hp ice. moreover, this set does not get walled by jellicent, as you noted, and you'd be surprised how much damage you can deal with a pirouette-form thunder (i think you can do a crapton to tornadus-T, for example). you won't be breaking down blisseys any time soon but offensive mons can be dented surprisingly deep, because thunder has a ton of power even off of only 77 base satk (which is why i tend to lean towards 252 satk instead of 252 atk - that maximizes the power of your thunder). for example you can actually 2hko gengar with your 252 EV 77 base thunder, and you outspeed it in pirouette so it can't 2hko you with focus blast (not to mention that if you're in rain, the odds of you hitting twice with thunder are way better than gengar hitting you twice with focus blast lol)

i ran that set on my rain team, and it actually got some good results. first off, the constant form switching keeps an opponent off guard, if they predict wrong they're sending something into a massively powerful close combat or a 60% chance to paralyze thunder. it can really decimate a team if you predict switches well.

[Lavos Spawn]

in my opinion it's generally best to run 252 atk / 56 spatk / 200 speed on meloetta, and ice punch > hp ice, because close combat stab max invested is absolutely devastating and thunder coming off 77 base spatk isn't great but isn't too horrible either. however, if your team doesn't depend on meloetta's forme change too much, reversing the atk/spatk of the spread mentioned above might not be a bad idea.

running off to showdown to give this set a try, thanks for the interesting meloetta alkinesthetase!

[alkinesthetase]

running off to showdown to give this set a try, thanks for the interesting meloetta alkinesthetase!

np, i send my credit to shrang who came up with the original set a while back in DW
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...77&postcount=2

as for atk vs spatk, i always lean towards spatk but i guess it depends on what you want to accomplish. it's a LOT easier to sweep if you're heavily invested in atk, seeing as base 90 speed isn't about to sweep but base 128 with stab fighting would have a hard time NOT sweeping. however, running a heavily invested spatk ensures that your thunder hits at its maximum power in every forme which is really good for nailing most fighting resists. in addition meloetta lacks STAB on either of its special moves if you run it the way i did, in which case it appreciates the extra power the most on its weaker options. one hilarious thing that must be said for ice punch though is serene grace backed freeze chance 8D 20% is DEFINITELY enough to make someone start bitching in main chat about how they got "freeze haxed by a !@#$! meloetta"

nevertheless it is definitely one of the most fun sets i have ever played. switching forms is hilarious. it's great to see a blissey come in thinking you're CM and try to toxic you, only for you to switch forms and close combat it

EDIT: oh and one more reason to run 252 satk over 252 atk. with 56 EV 77 base satk LO thunder against naive tornadus-T, you deal max 93% which is never an OHKO without LO recoil or stealth rock (you deal minimum 78 or something so if you have SR obviously you get that kill). with 252 satk you deal minimum 98% with a 7/8th chance to OHKO. seeing as tornadus always OHKOs pirouette with hurricane, it's crucial to kill tornadus with the thunder before it attacks... something you can only accomplish with heavily invested special attack. granted, you might have relic songed it on the switch (deals a surprisingly significant amount... i think it's at least 50% from aria forme's 128 base), in which case it's gonna die no matter what, or you might have hazards down... but still that extra firepower is nice insurance. granted, aria forme can usually beat tornadus-T anyway, because it never gets OHKOd by hurricane and can reply with a fatal thunder.

[ginganinja]

moving on (because i think we've all had enough of otr rank for one day), what even happened to meloetta?

Fuck yea, discussion on my baby whooooooooooo!

O.k, I am nowhere near the only person testing Meloetta, but there ARE a few good sets that work for it, and separate it from Jirachi.

Meloetta (IMO) as THREE really excellent sets, that people really should start testing, they are as follows: Relic Song Mixed, CM + 3 Attacks, and Specially Defensive.

Relic Song Mixed

How it works

-Relic Song Mixed is really nice, since you can make use of that amazing special attack stat, and then switch formes and sweep late game with Close Combat. From experience, its actually a fairly neat set (I ran it with CM Sub Jirachi and double Serene Grace Thunders is such a massive faggot to a lot of teams), and its slightly difficult to counter, since there is always that 20% chance your counter just fell asleep. Meloetta can also get around being "forme blocked" since there isn't very many ghosts that enjoy taking a +1 LO Thunder on the switch in. The set is rather neat, since out of all the sets the Meloetta can use, it can work against any team. Calm Mind sets might struggle against faster, "hyper offensive" teams, but Relic Song Mixed doesn't need much to forme change and introduce a strong momentum switch, that Close Combat is deceptively strong.

The only gripe I have with Relic Song Mixed, is that fact that Life Orb is petty heavily recommended, and Meloetta has enough natural bulk to take a few Special / Physical attacks provided it doesn't lose health via Life Orb. Sure, your not investing into that bulk, but its just nice to have.

Is it outclassed?

Pretty much nothing outclasses it, I rate it much better than a pure Relic Song + 3 physical attacks, since you are actually walled by less shit, and you have a nice niche in shifting formes. I don't need to go on about this, its prolly going to be its flagship set, it works pretty well, and only Meloetta can run it so =]

Calm Mind + 3 Attacks

-O.k anyone whos read my RMT knows that I used this set a lot, and it was really effective. Jimbon was really nice and linked it for me, so I won't waste time copying my paragraph from there, over here. Basically, CM + 3 Attacks, blasts holes in defensive / balanced teams, since it has really awesome coverage, and it hits like a fucking nuke. Seriously, to begin with, you have about the same attack stat as Latios, but you have a Modest Nature, so you effectively hit harder, you have the option of running Life Orb, for more power but you don't really need it. On top of this you have Calm Mind, as well as Psyshock, which means you can nuke through those pink blobs and not give a shit at all. Focus Blast means that Tyranitar isn't going to wall you, and honestly, Meloetta just blasts holes into the opponent, and then something else can and will sweep. If the opponents team is already weakened, well thats fine, Meloetta sweeps clean (which it managed to do a LOT when I ran it). The obvious disadvantage, with Meloetta, is that its going to struggle a little more against offensive teams, but honestly, I don't really care when a single Calm Mind just results me in murdering so many balanced teams, its jusst plain scary.

Is it outclassed?

A few people claim Calm Mind is outclassed by Jirachi, and I would agree that Sub Calm Mind Jirachi outclasses Sub Calm Mind Meloetta. However, I believe that CM + 3 Attacks, is just a different kettle of fish, since that initial power and coverage, is something that is almost impossible to replicate. CM Latios doesn't outclass it, (personally) since Meloetta doesn't have worry about Tyranitar, and it potentially has better coverage. Calm Mind Latias lacks the brutal, raw power that Calm Mind 3 Attacks Meloetta has, and in all honestly, I don't know what else you can compare it to. Its a solid set, should be used more.

Specially Defensive Meloetta

In all honestly, this part of my post I feel is going to be controversial, since I bet many people could argue that logically, Jirachi (or Celebi) can do this better thanks to recovery. In all honesty, I thought this too, but man, I was just blown away by the shit it could handle. Its honestly hard for me to find words, as during testing, the thing just didn't fucking die. The sad thing was, the amount of special bulk I ended up running (for reference I think I first tested SDef Meloetta on Dear Susan) was small (since I wanted to outspeed Breloom), but dam did it tank. I actually ran it because I wanted Perish Song, which is an amazing move, and its what gives Meloetta its niche value in running a specially defensive set. It was an awesome check to Rank, Gengar, and shit, and it was nice being able to run a pokemon like it, which didn't have a fire weakness. I am not at all saying it 100% outclasses Jirachi, but in my testing, it was pretty darn good, and I did feel that it was different enough from Jirachi to prevent it from being outclassed. However, as I said, I am expecting a bit of debate on this.

Problems with Meloetta in general

I personally think that Genosect and Scizor enjoying rather a lot of usage, puts many people off from using Meloetta. Their is no denying that both these pokemon check Meloetta rather well, however, I think people underrate Meloetta quite a bit, which also doesn't help it out. One advantage I had during testing, was knowing just how much health I needed Scizor to be on before I could kill with a +1 FB, how I could lure in and cripple / kill Genosect, stuff like that. Meloetta does require a fair bit of skill to use effectively, and I have a feeling its going to end up one of those "niche" pokemon near the bottom of OU, that a few players will keep using since many people have no idea how to handle it. I do feel sad about this, since its actually a very good pokemon (and 50% of the reason I posted my team was so people could use it, test it, and basically test Meloetta out a little more to keep interest up), it just requires a bit of skill and support to use well. The tricky thing about Meloetta is that finding good, initial switch ins to Meloetta, is pretty hard, since both Relic Song Mixed, and CM + 3 Attacks can be very, very threatening (which some people still don't get T_T ). Also please please please don't Shadow Ball Meloetta, once I can understand, but getting a free Calm Mind boost cos your dumb Gengar spammed Shadow Ball against me just makes me doubt your intelligence.

also, tyranitar hard walls purely special meloetta, which is quite the nuisance considering it's top 5 or 6 in usage. the underlying issue, however, is that cm meloetta is outclassed by cm jirachi in every single element besides special defense (and who cares about that? base 100 to base 130 isn't significant when you're boosting).

Picking up on this quote because I 100% respectively disagree after doing a large amount of testing. (I might have misread this quote tho so feel free to ignore me if this is the case.) To begin with, Choice Band Tyranitar gets flat out OHKOed by a +0 Focus Blast, Specially Defensive takes upward of 67% at +0, at +1, its a guaranteed OHKO, so I don't really think that Tyranitar "walls" Special Meloetta, or indeed any Meloetta, when the other sets pack Close Combat.

On Calm Mind + 3 Attacks Meloetta, being outclassed by CM Jirachi, I don't at all see how thats true either. I am not sure what Jirachi set you are comparing with CM + 3 Attacks Meloetta, but I am pretty sure that Meloetta plays a lot differently, and really isn't outclassed. For starters, you are ignoring the initial power that Calm Mind Meloetta has. Sure, "Your boosting", however, Meloetta just doesn't need a boost for it to lay the hurt on a lot of things, the power from its initial attacks are really strong. Basically, Meloetta can switch in, and attack off the bat, if it has a chance to Calm Mind, only 1 boost is really needed since you just have so much power. Jirachi needs a few boosts, and it also (arguably,) lacks Meloetta's amazing coverage. Psychic / Fighting / Ghost is pretty excellent and hitting about as hard as OTR Reuniclus is really significant. Jirachi usually runs 252 HP, 252 Speed Timid, because it needs that speed. Meloetta would love hitting the base 100 speed tier, its true, however its current speed tier means that it can run a much more offensive EV spread, and make better use of its coverage and power. Personally, I think that CM + 3 Attacks Meloetta fully outclasses SuperRachi, and plays very differently to Sub Calm Mind Jirachi, one can hit very hard, very quickly without a dominant need for set up, while the other takes a little longer to get going, and uses its invested bulk and typing better. Both sets play to their respective strengths, Meloetta has its excellent power, special bulk, and coverage, Jirachi has its speed, well rounded bulk, and typing. Both work very differently

But hey, don't just take my word for it, go out and test them!!!

tl:dr

ginganinja loves Meloetta and wasted a good 3 hours of his holiday typing this response up.

[Lavos Spawn]

since ginganinja's love for meloetta is proving insurmountable, i'm going to change the topic.

in c&c i'm messing around with a set i used back in the thundurus era of bw1 called dragon dance lapras. before you laugh this off, consider it. dragon dance is a fantastic boosting move, hydration + rest means instant recovery, and waterfall + ice shard is great dual stab coverage with a priority move to boot. with the prevalence of rain in this metagame, lapras needs to be taken more seriously, as it can be a serious threat to a plethora of teams. here's the set:

@ Leftovers
Trait: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Waterfall
- Ice Shard
- Dragon Dance
- Rest

before you comment: yes, i realize this thing has counters. i also realize that those counters can be checked, a particularly good partner being specs gothitelle. the ev spread is specialized, don't suggest a different one. just tell me what you think of lapras' functionality in the current rain-centric metagame.

[Danger Mouse]

well, rain boosted waterfall sounds pretty great, and of course ice shard is good. with that bulky spread, i could imagine some good results from that. i'd imagine the biggest threats it would face is enemy water types, especially keldeo and rotom-w, who resist lapras' dual stab and can threaten with fighting and electric, respectively. even better, rotom-w can escape from gothitelle with volt switch.
for the record, specs keldeo OHKO's this lapras with secret sword if rocks are up. otherwise, that lapras actually sounds pretty neat, and i'm tempted to try it. :)

[Joeyboy]

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

since ginganinja's love for meloetta is proving insurmountable, i'm going to change the topic.

in c&c i'm messing around with a set i used back in the thundurus era of bw1 called dragon dance lapras. before you laugh this off, consider it. dragon dance is a fantastic boosting move, hydration + rest means instant recovery, and waterfall + ice shard is great dual stab coverage with a priority move to boot. with the prevalence of rain in this metagame, lapras needs to be taken more seriously, as it can be a serious threat to a plethora of teams. here's the set:

...

---

@ Leftovers
Trait: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Waterfall
- Ice Shard
- Dragon Dance
- Rest

before you comment: yes, i realize this thing has counters. i also realize that those counters can be checked, a particularly good partner being specs gothitelle. the ev spread is specialized, don't suggest a different one. just tell me what you think of lapras' functionality in the current rain-centric metagame.

Lapras always catches me off guard. You'll run into once in maybe 100 battles and it seriously takes me by surprise every time. Its even cleanly sweep me before, definitely an underrated threat. Its also has just the right amount of bulk, living something that I'd definitely thought would KO and then recover 100%.

On a similar note a 'mon I've been tinkering with is Offensive Gorebyss.


Gorebyss @ White Herb
Trait: Hydration
EVs: 56 HP / 252 SAtk / 200 Spd
Modest nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Shell Smash
- Rest
- Surf
- Ice Beam / Baton Pass

The idea is that instead of just being a one trick pony(smash and pass) Gorebyss can actually pose a serious threat to rival teams. Now for the full offensive groove you'd run Ice Beam for coverage but it is seriously hard to not use Baton Pass with this thing, especially when you're running screens(like me). Common rain stall teams tend to just fold in against thing thing once water immunes are gone / Dragonite. The key, as with Lapras, is that a free, no draw back Rest is amazing.

Anyway this guy is really cool and has been surprising a lot of my opponents recently. Be warned though, even after +2 Gorebyss is still outspeed by many common scarfers.