BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[SpecsX]

That's why you wait until the weather war is won. If it's not, Lapras is a complete liability.

[Chimpakt]

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

Another way is to use a Slowbro, it resists both of Lapras' STABs, and if you manage to gain weather control over rain, it can even use Scald to burn Lapras. The problem is when Lapras get 6 boosts of DD/Curse... Also, Techniloom is KOed by Ice Shard from DD Lapras since it moves before Breloom.

Still, this thing is devastating if you can't manage to mantain weather control, or if you are using Rain itself. or you can try to kill him with something that resist both of its STABs like Keldeo, but if you are too late, you are going to be teared apart.

Also, Cherub Agent: Focus Blast on SpecsKeldeo???

Edit: completely overlooked what you said about controlling weather.

Techniloom has mach punch and bullet seed. I'm sure Curse lapras doesnt run many attack EVs and breloom takes the Ice Shard pretty well
Ice Shard vs 4 HP/0 Def Breloom: 46.95% - 56.11%

while Lapras is not taking Breloom's hits that well.

Mach Punch vs 252 HP/0 +1 Def Lapras: 49.14% - 57.54%
Bullet Seed vs 252 HP/0 +1 Def Lapras: 30.39% - 35.56%

that's an easy 2hko if Bullet Seed doesn't finish it off.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Chimpakt

Uhhh.... what? Lapras can't get burned under rain. Techniloom has mach punch and bullet seed. I'm sure Curse lapras doesnt run many attack EVs and breloom takes the Ice Shard pretty well
Ice Shard vs 4 HP/0 Def Breloom: 46.95% - 56.11%

while Lapras is not taking Breloom's hits that well.

Mach Punch vs 252 HP/0 +1 Def Lapras: 49.14% - 57.54%
Bullet Seed vs 252 HP/0 +1 Def Lapras: 30.39% - 35.56%

that's an easy 2hko if Bullet Seed doesn't finish it off.

That's why I said: If you manage to gain weather control over rain. I know that it can't be burned under rain, but outside of rain, it's a completely different history. Take out the rain and Lapras is much more manageable.

Also, in fact about the calculations... I didn't made the calculations to know if Ice Shard was going to KO Breloom... I assumed that it would since Techniloom is so frail that it gets a ton from even resisted hits, I know this because I've used one in the past, and at full health it was left with about 5-45% HP when hit by many rain-boosted Water-type attacks.

[kalamadude]

I can't say I've ever run into a Hydration Lapras, but it seems like Taunt Jellicent counters it even in the rain.

[ginganinja]

Jellicent counters the one with Ice Shard its true. I know that Shrang and I would run Toxic just to screw with Jellicent, while still letting you "beat" Rotom W (Toxic it then Rest off Thunderbolt).

[Porii Sames]

It still seems as though Amoonguss takes it on fine.

And if anything, I'd be running a HydraRest Vap with Work Up/Acid Armor and then either Scald, Surf, or BP (hell, Ice Beam if you felt the need for it) but whatevs.

I run Amoonguss on 90% of my teams so that's probably why I don't normally have troubles with it.

[BurningMan]

Originally Posted by Fat Porii Sames

It still seems as though Amoonguss takes it on fine.

How?
It can't status Lapras and all it can do is gigadrain for 25% damage (depending on lapras EV spread but even 4/0 isn't 2HKOd). Amoongus is actually set-up fodder for Lapras. But that doesn't changes the fact that Lapras is crap in OU even with Hydration thanks to its awful defensive typing and lack of any offensive presence unless it got an enormous amount of boosts wich it should never get because every team propably carrys 2 or more Pokes that can easily check/counter it.
Lapras always sounds nice on paper but in reality its just a physical Reuniclus that is way too dependent on weather and has a similar bad defensive typing.

[UltiMario]

It's not a physical Reuniclus.

Reuniclus is actually good. It can actually kill things. It doesn't need to set up to +3 or +4 before it poses an offensive threat, it can do that just fine at neutral. Reuniclus can actually break stall.

It's more like a physical... I don't even know... it's just a piece of shit, really.

[SpecsX]

It's really more like a Physical Sigilyph. Needs a ton of boosts to do anything dangerous. Once it sets up, it can wreck teams, but until then...
Doesn't even get Magic Guard or a 90% accurate burn(or any status) move. At least it gets priority.

[Jimbon]

I tried Lapras a little while ago and I really wasn't impressed with the results. The set I ran was some weird Specially Defensive Dragon Dance set with Rest and it really didn't do a whole lot. In the matches I used it, it was so horribly weak and pretty easy to play around. Any competent player will know your strategy upon team preview when seeing Politoed and Lapras on the same team, and given there really is no other viable Lapras set in OU it's pretty obvious what it's going to do. This is just my opinion of course, but agreeing with BurningMan, there are so many common checks to Lapras it makes it hard to set up successfully. Even if all the Lapras checks are down, you still need 4 or 5 boosts to actually accomplish anything which wastes even more of your time. Also for the argument about Lapras being able to wreck teams, I really don't see this happening frequently. The amount of team support needed to make it work is kind of annoying because of how easily it is walled and even at +4 / +5 / +6 it fails to break through the bulky waters it needs to because of it's severe 4mss due to having to run Rest and Dragon Dance / Curse. Also I don't understand what you're saying about "once it sets up, it wrecks teams", the same applies with any Pokemon, and the fact that Lapras has a hard time sweeping after multiple boosts emphasizes that is really is not great.

[NoUserName]

I tried Curse Lapras around February/March of this year with LO and around 252 PS / 252 Sp. Def Careful with Rest-Waterfall-Ice Shard-Rest, and it was a pain to make it successful.

It is necessary to win the weather war, or the only useful thing that Lapras can do is revenge kill 1% HP pokes with Ice Shard. Due the fact it is a setup sweeper, any weather change takes away Rest.

It is very different to its Hydration partner Vaporeon. Vaporeon can do something in a different weather, as it only needs 1 turn from Resting and even it can Rest in a different weather and switch out, the next time with rain up, heal itself. Vaporeon due its typing and no SR weakness has more chances to enter into the battlefield. Vaporeon also has Wish in emergencies and the ever annoying Scald(however if Lapras had it it would be useless in it anyways)

Lapras has a lot of weaknesses because its crap Ice Type which include popular moves such as Close Combat, Superpower and Stone Edge, even with +1 from Curse it cannot handle that, and it is free switch for a lot of mons and it is predictable as hell in OU. Weakness to SR is pretty annoying. Because of its slowness, it lacks time to heal back with Rest.
The good news are it is very capable with evs in Sp Def to even not being 2KOed by special moves and heal back.
For instance, Modest Scarf Rotom-W with Volt Switch is 29%-34%, Thunderbolt is 38,7%-45,7%

The speed drop from Curse also harms it, Lapras is slow, but with the drop anything outspeeds it and maybe prevents it from Resting and helps it to be a Taunt-bait.

I am not saying that (Curse) Lapras is useless in OU(it may), without a lot of propper support which include to WIN the weather war is essential.

[SpecsX]

I'm not saying that Lapras is a great mon. It's viable, but only just. And yeah, bulky waters shut it down(much like how Houndoom shuts Sigilyph down). Also, you have spend a lot of time setting up. Too much time for a pokemon with common weaknesses.

[NoUserName]

Actually Curse Lapras can use some bulky waters for setting up.

Let's see bulky waters in OU:

Gastrodon, lol set-up

Jellicent, Away if Jelli has Taunt.

Politoed, Only annoying if it has Encore or Perish Song, however most of them do.

Rotom-W: not good matchup, but if defensive, Lapras laughs at it.

Tentacruel: lol free set-up

Vaporeon: Almost PP Stall, but easy free +6

Gyarados: Better stay away from it.

[Porii Sames]

Amoonguss with Clear Smog puts a stop to Lapras while not necessarily doing anything in return, it still takes it on OK enough for me (I doubt +3 Ice Shard comes close to OHKOing Shroom) and tbh I just don't see Lapras being that useful at all. Perish'd by toed, Taunted by Jelly, Ferro Leechs/Power Whips it down (and even at +6 I don't think it's taking out Ferro), hell, Scizorotom is going to just Voltturn off of it until someone crits, I just don't see it being that viable.

I don't even know why we're discussing this when we have Acid Armor/Work Up/Rest/BP Vap....

[SpecsX]

Actually, Ferro doesn't beat Lapras. Sure, Leech Seed wears it down faster than it likes, Power Whip actually gets weaker with each Curse Lapras obtains. I thought Ferro could handle Lapras, but Lapras outstalled mine and swept me.

[Zacchaeus]

I definitely think of Lapras as a gimmick but I haven't personally used it much. I'd rather wait and go for the same set applied to Whiscash, just switch out the weak Ice STAB for a nice Ground-type alternative

Originally Posted by Fat Porii Sames

I don't even know why we're discussing this when we have Acid Armor/Work Up/Rest/BP Vap....

Probably for the same reasons that people don't always discuss Ninjask. Sure it gets a great Baton Pass off if you get lucky, but in the event that things don't go how you plan or you get Roared, Hazed, or whatever, all of your efforts are in vain. If a chain passed an Agility to it, it could hopefully avoid a number of taunts but if it's really expected to work, I'd put it right behind an Ingrain Smeargle in an old-fashioned Baton Pass team

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Why use Lapras when you can just use Cloyster? It doesn't have the same durability and priority (unless you plan to use Ice Shard in place of Hydro Pump/Razor Shell or Icicle Spear - not that it would be an intelligent idea), but with just one turn of setup, it's ready to sweep, and has coverage in form of Rock Blast.

[Porii Sames]

I realize that Vap set is taunt bait or whatever, not reliable in the slightest, but Lapras is as well, and it can give those boosts to other things (and it's about as easy to set up as Lapras if not easier because you lose the awful Ice typing).

Oh and yeah, Whiscash is also better than Lapras at this job.

[Skore]

252Atk Life Orb +4 Lapras (+Atk) Ice Shard vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Amoonguss (+Def): 87% - 103% (378 - 446 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 20% chance to OHKO.

94% chance at +3 to OHKO with a Life Orb if your Amoongus is Specially Defensive but a full 252 attack Lapras needs +4 and a Life Orb to even have a chance to OHKO a physically defensive Amoongus?

Lapras' best offensive set is surely the Bulky DD/Rest/Waterfall/Ice Shard under rain as Waterfall under rain gives much better results and you only need to resort to Ice Shard in emergencies.

[BlackLight]

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

Why use Lapras when you can just use Cloyster? It doesn't have the same durability and priority (unless you plan to use Ice Shard in place of Hydro Pump/Razor Shell or Icicle Spear - not that it would be an intelligent idea), but with just one turn of setup, it's ready to sweep, and has coverage in form of Rock Blast.

See, if you wanted a Pokemon in rain with completely redundant defensive typing, Cloyster is the way to go, not Lapras. Lapras has moveslot syndrome, since it needs Rest and Dragon Dance to be truely effective. Cloyster just needs Shell Smash set up, and it only takes one turn to do so, whereas Lapras needs more boosts to be effective. Cloyster is also bulkier on the physical side, or at least until it Smashes, so it has some leeway in that. And, of course, none of its main options have base powers under 120, unless you run Razor Shell or a Hidden Power. It is a bit more vulnerable to priority, but the pros outweigh the cons, imo.

Oh yeah, and if you do want to use Dragon Dance, the best options are Kingdra (Sniper?), Haxorus, and Whiscash. Fuck yeah Whiscash.

[Lavos Spawn]

Transitioning out of the two-day Lapras discussion, what do you guys think of Keldeo's place in the current metagame? I'm definitely seeing a lot less of Tornadus-T these days, which makes me think that Keldeo's niche may have opened back up again. It's still a wonderful stallbreaker as a Specs user, but I feel that the Calm Mind set may have again become the best way to make use of it. I haven't seen Torn all day, and I haven't seen Amoonguss all month, so I'm going to start playing around with it on Showdown and I'll get back to you on whether or not it lives up to my hype.

In the meantime, feel free to post your opinions on Keldeo's place in the meta. I'm interested to hear what you have to say!

[superbadd]

I haven't seen one keldeo in ou.... I really want it to go to uu and fuck shit up. :)

[Porii Sames]

I played Lum Keldeo which is a pretty cool stallbreaker against a lot of teams, and I can definitely see it being more popular because of how stupid people are for not playing Amoonguss as much as they should be.

Keldeo sounds like a cool choice definitely.

[Ghostbone]

I don't think it's torn-t that's keeping keldeo's usage down, it just has a bunch of common checks and counters it the current meta, tornadus can't even switch in, it can only revenge kill non-scarfed variants.
Jellicent and toxicroak are almost full stops to keldeo, while starmie, lati@s, Gyarados and dragonite/salamence are great checks.

[Electrolyte]

I'm finding that a lot of Rain teams aren't as offensive now as they were back in the beginning of BW2. There is less of "specs everything" and more of balance, and how-do-I-use-my-weather-the-best-way sort of thing. Keldeo isn't really anything but offense, and in terms of revenging, well a lot of players prefer Tornadus-T, because its coverage is a lot better. Blissey and Chansey are plummeting, lessening the need for a special sweeper that can hit physically- and Dragons are on the rise, making Keldeo's STABs seem a lot less threatening.