BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread - Page 72

Blim · Sep 21st, 2012, 10:14:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Marzbar

I can't believe what I'm reading.

"Magnezone is shit. It only traps Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skarmory, choiced Scizor and choiced Genesect."

Have you seen actually seen the OU usage stats these days? Tell me the last time you played a team that DIDN'T have one of those 5 Pokemon in it.

Magnezone is still very relevant and very useful. Stop hating on it because it's become "cool" to do so.

lol, what in the world are you talking about? Who is hating on Magnezone because it seems "cool" to do so? The only thing I've seen in this thread is good discussion of Magnezone's usefulness vs Gothitelle in the current metagame. Anyway, Ferrothorn can beat Magnezone in the rain with leech seed and / or bulldoze, forretress can volt switch, skarmory can still run shed shell, and genesect can beat magnezone by u- turning / playing smart. I personally think Gothitelle is slightly better because of its ability to completely cripple stall and remove key walls on the opposing teams in order to allow other threatening offensive pokemon such as terrakoin / breloom to sweep. Not saying that magnezone is bad or doesnt have some niche, I just think that gothitelle is a little better.

Zacchaeus · Sep 21st, 2012, 10:18:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Marzbar

I can't believe what I'm reading.

"Magnezone is shit. It only traps Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skarmory, choiced Scizor and choiced Genesect."

Have you seen actually seen the OU usage stats these days? Tell me the last time you played a team that DIDN'T have one of those 5 Pokemon in it.

Magnezone is still very relevant and very useful. Stop hating on it because it's become "cool" to do so.

Magnezone and Gothitelle against Scarf Genesect

Ferrothorn

Skarmory

Scizor

Heatran

I'll still say that Magnezone is best suited for trapping Steels in most circumstances, but it definitely has limits (Heatran) and can't magically solve your problems. And of course, Gothitelle can trap things that aren't Steel type but I don't think it's as good as people make it out to be

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Blim

lol, what in the world are you talking about?

Post 1754-1768

LucaroarkZ · Sep 21st, 2012, 10:21:16 AM

The thing is, though, Magnezone is 100% useless unless the opponent has a Steel it can actually effectively trap. Its usefulness is just extremely limited. In addition, Scizor usage is starting to decrease and Heatran usage is starting to rise thanks to one of the Pokemon it checks (Genesect), and guess what? Magnezone is ass against Heatran. Even then, Magnezone loses to non-Choiced Genesect anyway. That pretty much leaves Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Forretress. Forretress, however, can predict your switch-in and go for Earthquake, and you may occasionally run into Skarmory or Forretress using Shed Shell.

Also, Zacchaeus, I think you forgot in the Skarmory calcs that Gothitelle learns Thunderbolt. Also, no one uses SpDef Skarm.

kalamadude · Sep 21st, 2012, 10:44:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Just pointing out, being "slow to change" is not really something smogon wants to do, its just to get a fair indication of whether something should be suspected, these things take time. Its only really been like a week since the (rated) suspect ladder went up, and already your complaining that its taking too long? You are aware right, that usually suspect testing takes about a month so we can get a fair indication of the suspect status of a pokemon, and that this round of suspect is half that time?

I can understand that you might want a quick result, but please, try to avid bitching about the time it takes for a decision to be made (especially when it hasn't actually been that long), as it does nothing to actually speed up the process, and you come across as rather rude. Tiering is taken very seriously about smogon, especially when our tiers are actually used by other sites / competitions. Heck, I went to a pokemon tourney in NZ that used smogons tiers erog, its in the best interest of the community, not to rush these things, in order for the correct situation to be made.

On the the second part of your post, you need to really have better arguments as to why you consider x broken. Tornadus-T has been discussed many times, I personally don't think it deserves to be suspected, (mainly due to me just not having trouble with it) but claiming Tornadus-T has "spectacular" special attack (you have the same as Tangrowth (110) which isn't utterly amazing when you compare it with Latios / Gengar which are 20 points higher). Yea, sure, Regeneration makes it tricky to deal with, although getting up Stealth Rock makes this easier, as well as Life Orb cutting down its survivability. Its strong, im not denying it, but it has its checks / counters, and I feel that its manageable. Genesect, I don't really feel is broken at all. You didn't really list why you think its broken (you claim stall has problems with leftovers Genesect but wouldn't something like Chansey handle it?) and in general, I just don't believe its broken lol. Basically, you are going to need to really state why you think these two pokemon are broken, while also refuting the arguments brought up earlier in the thread claiming that those pokemon are not actually broken.

I'm aware that the suspect ladder has only been up a week, but didn't we have another week of Garchomp with no Sand Veil before that? I also feel like testing should have been up earlier in general. BW2 has been out all summer. And I never claimed to be an expert in what is broken. I just feel that those two Pokémon require extraordinary measures to cover and are just too versatile. I'm not the only one that feels this way. I don't think Chansey is a great answer to Leftovers Genesect because Chansey is very easy to set up on by many sweepers and Genesect can just U-Turn away whenever it comes in. Blissey and Chansey in general haven't been very effective for a while because too many things can take advantage of them. I'm not going to get into a big argument over why I think something is broken because I'm not as well-versed and experienced as others and they'll make me look silly. I just personally feel that these two give me (and I imagine other people) a lot of trouble and it bothers me that we are focusing on bringing an old force back before we look at current problems.

PenguinX · Sep 21st, 2012, 10:54:45 AM

Nobody uses Earthquake Forretress.

IMO Magnezone and Gothitelle can't really be compared. Although there is some overlap between what they trap, Gothitelle's Psychic STAB is far weaker than Magnezone's Thunderbolt and as such is much easier to set-up on after it gets a KO. It will often rely on 4x super effective hits to get a bunch of its KOs too (think HP Ice / HP Fire / Signal Beam etc), which again, are incredibly easy to set-up on. Gothitelle has a much harder time running a non-choiced set since it really needs either the power of Choice Specs or the speed of Choice Scarf to beat most of the Pokemon you want it to without being taken out itself in the process. Gothitelle is also incredibly hard-pressed to beat Ferrothorn in Rain (Scarf just flat-out loses), and is nowhere near as good a check to Scizor as Magnezone is, again, often losing to it in Rain.

People act as if Magnezone has no uses outside of trapping steels too. Even if your opponent's steels are Heatran and Lucario or something, Magnezone still has an insanely powerful Thunderbolt to throw around, and with Specs has very few safe switch-ins outside of Ground-types and Blissey/Chansey. Magnezone can Volt Switch on Skarmory to take it out without being set-up fodder for the next Pokemon that comes in, unlike Gothitelle.

Gothitelle is a better general trapper but if you want a reliable way of dispatching most Scizor / Ferrothorn / Forretress / Jirachi etc then Magnezone is still the way to go. Also probably should mention that Gothitelle has to rely on Hidden Power way too much to get past a bunch of the stuff every claims it traps, for example it often can't beat both Gliscor and Scizor / Forretress. Its still a good mon but relying so much on Hidden Power means its nowhere near the catch-all trapper everyone makes it out to be.

**PK Gaming** · Sep 21st, 2012, 11:06:55 AM

So I guess I should clear things up. My intention was to discredit Magnezone, but I never implied that it was flat out unviable.

Magnezone is viable alright, though how often it comes in handy is questionable; it's garbage late game or after steel-type has been removed. Even if it does trap a Steel-type, that alone does not guarantee a game. The very fact that it invites a ton of offensive Pokemon to set up on it is a clear detriment. Anecdotal evidence: When i'm matched up against zone users and i'm using Forretress, I won't even bother spinning or laying down SR (unless I NEED too) and simply Volt Switch every time Magnezone comes in. If I'm always voltswitch/uturn/switching into Terrakion / Garchomp / etc Magnezone turns into a straight up liability. Another thing, it doesn't really synergize well with most Pokemon, and it's ability to check Dragons is hilariously overrated. It's one of the worst Dragon-type checks in the game. Hell on average it's usually not even a check, i'd classify more as "A Pokemon that can survive 1 hit from strong Dragon-type moves" which is admittedly cool I "guess" but on average you're just using it as a sacrificial lamb. I still feel like that team slot could be better devoted to using another Pokemon. BW2 is FILLED with good Pokemon that can actually pull their own weight against most teams.

Furthermore, no Steel-type (barring Genesect) is so "ridiculously impossible" to take down (it's been mentioned that it can't even trap certain Steel-types), so I don't really see overwhelming need to using Magnezone and waste a team slot. Speaking of of Genesect's removal, Magnezone can only trap Genesect if it's allowed itself to get trapped by killing a Pokemon with. Which already means lost one of your most important Pokemon if Genesect has allowed itself to use Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Bug Buzz... not good. FYI, It cannot trap non-choiced Genesect unless it's running Scarf itself. It also can't trap Scarf sets that have their SpA boosted, and it's raining. It's not a very reliable Gene trapper (but probably the best thing we have) and tbh most of the players I've seen deal with Genesect by playing around it in general. Perhaps down the line, Magnezone could become a solid Pokemon simply because it can stop Genesect. (Random musings on my part)

Honestly, I'd be quite surprised if comp level players have a hard time with any steel-types really. It might just be me, but i've never gotten the overwhelming NEED to use Magnezone, and I use DRAGONS constantly. As an aside, I might give of the impression that i'm some infallible god player, but i'm not. I was very much cognizant of my original "Magnezone" post, and for the most part it was a joke. I'm serious now however; I honestly think that Magnezone is a crutch in BW2.

***Jumpman16***** · Sep 21st, 2012, 11:22:46 AM

Don't people use Sub Zone anymore? Not to play pokemon beats pokemon with move but if you're using Volt Switch from Forry when Zone comes in and the Zone uses sub, both your Terrakion and Garchomp can be fucked pretty badly by the threat of TB on -1 SpD or HP Ice, both of which are standard. A lot of offensive pokemon can't set up on Subzone is basically my point.

Jimbon · Sep 21st, 2012, 11:31:15 AM

Quote:

I know Smogon has a reputation for being slow to change and is very careful in it's processes, but when in God's name are we going to figure out this Garchomp thing and move on to the, in my opinion, much more important problems of Tornadus-T and Genesect?

Honestly, I've not really had much trouble with either of these, but that could just be me. I know a lot of people who think these two aren't broken, and I'd probably agree. Garchomp on the other hand is a lot different, mainly for Sand Veil. A lot of people are trying to justify Sand Veil and others are saying it is uncompetitive, just adding extra unnecessary luck into the game, which is what I would agree with. The main difference between Garchomp and Genesect / Tornadus-T is how easily you can deal with them. Genesect doesn't really have many true counters, due to the fact it can easily just U-Turn out of the incoming switch in and into something like Dugtrio who usually traps Genesect's counters. The other mons that can actually check Genesect somewhat decently are usually beaten by it's other coverage options, while still risking the potential download boost in either offensive stat. The best way to deal with Genesect, from experience, is to play the way Genesect does. Playing offensive and forcing a lot of switches is the best way to deal with it. Once you figure out the set, whether it be Scarf, Band, Specs, Focus Sash, Life Orb or Expert Belt, you can pretty easily deal with it. You might think this is a difficult way to beat Genesect, but once you reveal the set it's really not as effective as everyone is making out to be. The fact Genesect has great offenses means and often carries a mixed set means it can pretty easily bluff any item bar Life Orb, making it pretty difficult to deal with. There are a lot of offensive checks to Genesect, the most common being Terrakion and Keldeo (I've found Thunderbolt Genesect is not the norm), so it's not like Genesect has the ability to break through whole teams.

Tornadus-T on the other hand is something I wouldn't agree was "broken" either. With Sun Teams so common in usage, it doesn't get as many opportunities to spam Hurricanes as much as it used to. It also doesn't help that it's main counter Jirachi is #7 in usage, and can pretty much beat every Tornadus-T set. In this metagame, Tornadus-T also has to put up with an onslaught of faster scarfers, priority and other weather. While Tornadus-T is certainly good, I wouldn't say it was metagame changing. It makes Rain a little more viable, and acts as a good check to a lot of the Fighting types in OU, but that's honestly as far as it goes. Any competent player will have a way of dealing with Tornadus-T, just like any other Pokemon in the metagame. Banning it would only deter Rain usage, and potentially make Sun even more common.

Now we move onto Garchomp. Garchomp as a Pokemon isn't broken, but Sand Veil pushes it over the edge. Sand Veil Garchomp is one of the most annoying Pokemon to deal with, and I know this from much experience. I played a little bit on the suspect ladder using bulky SD Chomp and it absolutely slaughtered teams. The main issue here is that you don't always have a good answer for Sand Veil Chomp. Sand Veil turns every 100 accuracy move into Stone Edge, and you can often find yourself losing matches due to one miss because of how potent Garchomp is as a sweeper. Sand Veil allows Garchomp to actually break through it's counters with a Sand Veil miss or two, which is what Genesect and Tornadus-T cannot do. Combine this with decent bulk and speed, and it's terrifying to face it behind a Substitute. It's scary how easily Garchomp can change games, only needing one miss in a lot of cases. It can completely twist the momentum of any match, and punishes your opponent for something out of their control. You can't plan for Sand Veil Garchomp, you can't prepare for it. Common answers to it are turned into complete liabilities, and even on the suspect ladder where everyone was somewhat prepared for Garchomp, it still did incredibly well.

**PK Gaming** · Sep 21st, 2012, 11:39:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Jumpman16

Don't people use Sub Zone anymore? Not to play pokemon beats pokemon with move but if you're using Volt Switch from Forry when Zone comes in and the Zone uses sub, both your Terrakion and Garchomp can be fucked pretty badly by the threat of TB on -1 SpD or HP Ice, both of which are standard. A lot of offensive pokemon can't set up on Subzone is basically my point.

Oh sorry I wasn't clear. By Volt Switch, I mean Forretress Volt Switches as Magnezone switches in or a Steel-type in general just double switches as Magnezone switches. Not only does that deny Magnezone a key kill, but it also sets your opponent back, as giving Pokemon like Terrakion & Garchomp free turns is just setting yourself up to fail. I have yet to see Magnezone used effectively (and honestly, I think it's because the Pokemon itself has a low skill ceiling). If you aren't getting zone kill picks you'd be better off switching to another Pokemon. It's something I noticed after playing a few Dragmag teams.

PenguinX · Sep 21st, 2012, 11:45:56 AM

If Forretress is Volt Switching out every time Magnezone comes in then it isn't setting up Spikes or Rapid Spinning. They get a switch to whatever they want on Magnezone but you are 100% denying Forretress from really doing anything. You can claim Magnezone isn't "beating" Forretress every time it uses Volt Switch but it is effectively preventing them from setting up hazards or spinning at the risk of just being trapped, which goes a very long way to breaking down stall.

Volt Switch Forretress doesn't beat Magnezone any more than something like U-Turn Gliscor beats Skarmory. Magnezone effectively still wins the match-up because its presence alone prevents Forretress from really doing anything itself.

**PK Gaming** · Sep 21st, 2012, 12:01:40 PM

ok

I get to keep Forretress so your Choice Scarf moxie Salamence doesn't sweep me. That's a win in my book!!! Why are we even arguing in this way, it's completely circular (2 pages now we'll be arguing about who won in our hypothetical match). Forretress VSing doesn't happen all of the time, like I mentioned before there are things to consider (how much do you really need SR / spin) and my example doesn't just extend to Forretress; it applies to other Steel-types in general.

my main point still stands, it's not a very good Pokemon. It's slow as molasses, it loses to practically everything in OU in a 1 v1 matchup, and it's dead weight against faster paced teams, unless you give it a scarf (and i'll counter with "you should use choice magneton instead" since that thing can at least outspeed Tornadus-T), it only beats a few Steel-types (some of which can escape with the proper move). If you're trying argue that Magnezone, you should mention its ability to beat Genesect, which up until now nobody has made concerted effort in trying to point out.

PenguinX · Sep 21st, 2012, 12:27:34 PM

You just prioritize hazards in the early turns of the game, as you would against standard volt turn. If they dont want to take sr and spikes damage every time they come in then they can spin, but they just get trapped by zone and die as they do. If they don't want to get trapped by zone they have to volt switch and let your hazards stick around.

Forretress is 100% checkmated by Magnezone, you really cannot deny that. Obviously I'm not suggesting cycling through the same routine of "switch-in zone on volt switch" when you don't have hazards up, but from experience Volt Switch Forretress is a poor check at best to Magnezone + any dragon when there are any hazards in play whatsoever.

Faster paced teams still have steel types, and if anything are just as susceptible to Magnezone as they are less likely to have stuff that can tank your STABs. Choiced Scizor and Genesect, again, end up checkmated by Magnezone as they can't risk doing anything but U-Turn repeatedly without just being trapped, and as such only really get one revenge-kill per game. Heavy offense with Magnezone tears any offense team that relies on Scarf Genesect a new one.

edit: okay I'm actually stopping now, I do agree that Magnezone is worse now than in bw1 but not for any of the reasons everyone else has said. Its still a better option for a dedicated steel trapper than Goth will ever be though, because it actually beats the steels you are trying to trap.

**PK Gaming** · Sep 21st, 2012, 12:54:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat PenguinX

You just prioritize hazards in the early turns of the game, as you would against standard volt turn. If they dont want to take sr and spikes damage every time they come in then they can spin, but they just get trapped by zone and die as they do. If they don't want to get trapped by zone they have to volt switch and let your hazards stick around.

Those are some of the perks to using Magnezone yes.

Quote:

Forretress is 100% checkmated by Magnezone, you really cannot deny that. Obviously I'm not suggesting cycling through the same routine of "switch-in zone on volt switch" when you don't have hazards up, but from experience Volt Switch Forretress is a poor check at best to Magnezone + any dragon when there are any hazards in play whatsoever.

I disagree. You don't get that being denied a KO is far less of a punishment than being actually killed. I will take not being able to spin or lay SR if it means keeping Forretress for something like Salamence or Garchomp. In that respect, i'd say that it doesn't 100% shut it down. Unless of course I don't need Forretress, which i've made a point to mention several times now. I'm NOT doubting it's ability to destroy Forretress (i have used it before you know!!!) or its ability to destroy on Ferrothorn (on average) i'm doubting it's ability to consistently remove Steel-types, without being a detriment to its own team, and that Dragmag teams in general aren't that good.

Magnezone's existence doesn't completely invalidate Forretress as it can:

1. Switch into resisted hits
2. Lure out Magnezone should you switch into a Pokemon it counters and put your opponent into a tricky position
3. Scout for your team with Volt Switch shenanigans

I'm pretty sure those are all more effective than being dead.

But that's not all it can do against a Magnezone user. It still has the luxury to:

4. Spin(and die in the process)
5. Use hazards (and die in the process)

Quote:

Faster paced teams still have steel types, and if anything are just as susceptible to Magnezone as they are less likely to have stuff that can tank your STABs. Choiced Scizor and Genesect, again, end up checkmated by Magnezone as they can't risk doing anything but U-Turn repeatedly without just being trapped, and as such only really get one revenge-kill per game. Heavy offense with Magnezone tears any offense team that relies on Scarf Genesect a new one.

Again, you fail to realize that it's those very same HO teams that capitalize on the existence of Magnezone. Most of the HO teams i've seen commonly use Genesect as their designated Steel-type, and we've already established that Magnezone isn't the end all be all Genesect destroyer. I have yet to see a "Dragmag" team tear up the standard "HO team." (Garchomp / Genesect / Breloom / Landorus / Keldeo / Terrakion). Magnezone does poorly against those teams.

Quote:

edit: okay I'm actually stopping now, I do agree that Magnezone is worse now than in bw1 but not for any of the reasons everyone else has said. Its still a better option for a dedicated steel trapper than Goth will ever be though, because it actually beats the steels you are trying to trap.

I don't think I even compared the two whatsoever. Regardless, it might be better Steel-type trapper, but it's not really saying much. Also it's a little ridiculous to suggest "Magnezone is worse, but not for the reasons you stated" without providing your own reasons as to why Magnezone is bad >.>

These reason:
-It's slow
-Loses to practically every single offensive Pokemon 1 v 1.
-Can only trap a few Steel-types.
-Deadweight against most teams.
-Deadweight against shed shell users. (lol)

Cannot be disputed. To me it's a crutch, crutch, crutchitchy, crutch. You don't need it to take out steel-types!!! You can use it if you want to, but you're better of relying on actual Pokemon to do that! Hopefuly, this clears up any doubts.

Scarfwynaut · Sep 21st, 2012, 3:15:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Scarfwynaut

GINGANINJA EDIT: So why don't you expand on these reasons then -_-

A rather odd way to post... but whatever.

For Genesect, my belief in its ban stems from mostly from the lack of counters that it has because of its shear diversity. This would not be as much of an issues if it didn't have u-turn. Unless your facing magnezone, Genesect has pretty much free reign to use whatever move it wants to cripple a whole team, or because of the instant attack of special attack boost, even sweep. As I said I think in the suspect thread, this is very damaging to defensive cores and pretty much forces them to use Heatran.

So yeah, very basic reasons that I am sure have been parroted hundreds of times.

On Tornadus though, let me explain a little bit more. Basically for "stall" teams the main answer for Tornadus is Chansey, Blissey, and Jirachi. As someone said last page, Jirachi isn't that hot in this meta, especially on stall teams., trust me I think Ive tried every permutation of Jirachi on a stall team. So your options are limited to Blissey and Chansey, Chansey is easily worn down by u-turn spam because of the lack of leftovers, and Blissey is easily 2HKOed by superpower. Thankfully, few people use both.

**PK Gaming** · Sep 21st, 2012, 3:26:19 PM

There's also the fact that Tornadus-T with taunt straight up beats stall on it's own. Chansey & Blissey? Pfft. It only needs to wear down Jirachi (which isn't even that hard.)

#lovingthismetagamesohard

---

I also don't think Genesect is broken, but I'll have to elaborate on that some other day.

Scarfwynaut · Sep 21st, 2012, 3:31:38 PM

I don't think I have ever lost to a taunt Tornadus with out getting seriously unlucky, or if it had like superpower, all you have to do is click seismic toss, hurricane is like a 5HKO.

**PK Gaming** · Sep 21st, 2012, 3:53:35 PM

It's not like Taunt is being used over anything important. It still has access to Hurricane, Superpower and U-turn. With Taunt you prevent status, wish and straight up healing. If you taunt Blissey / Chansey at max health, it's literally impossible for them to beat you 1 v 1. Furthermore, Regeneration let's you heal simply by switching... I think you just played Tornadus-T users.

I should have been more specific; Taunt Tornadus-T with a little bit of team support destroys stall. A combination of Genesect + Tornadus-T + Dugtrio is super effective against stall.

PenguinX · Sep 21st, 2012, 3:57:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat PK Gaming

Again, you fail to realize that it's those very same HO teams that capitalize on the existence of Magnezone. Most of the HO teams i've seen commonly use Genesect as their designated Steel-type, and we've already established that Magnezone isn't the end all be all Genesect destroyer. I have yet to see a "Dragmag" team tear up the standard "HO team." (Garchomp / Genesect / Breloom / Landorus / Keldeo / Terrakion). Magnezone does poorly against those teams.

You've just actually given an example of a team that is weak to Magnezone + ScarfMence. As long as my team has at least some way of baiting ScarfGenesect into Ice Beam (DDnite, any other ice-weak set-up sweeper, Dragonite is especially good because if you don't Ice Beam you just get swept 9.9), Magnezone can easily trap after the KO and Salamence runs through your team. You'd have to be an incredibly bad player to lose to that team with DragMag.

And the thing about Gothitelle was directed at Lavos, who said something earlier about Magnezone being bad now because Gothitelle traps the same stuff, which in practice isn't strictly true.

**PK Gaming** · Sep 21st, 2012, 4:11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat PenguinX

You've just actually given an example of a team that is weak to Magnezone + ScarfMence. As long as my team has at least some way of baiting ScarfGenesect into Ice Beam (DDnite, any other ice-weak set-up sweeper, Dragonite is especially good because if you don't Ice Beam you just get swept 9.9), Magnezone can easily trap after the KO and Salamence runs through your team. You'd have to be an incredibly bad player to lose to that team with DragMag.

I don't really want to get into theoretical positional discussion, since actual game testing is more conclusive. All I'll say is that we played the hell out of that team (and it's variations) vs Dragmag and haven't really had issues, whereas things like Cloyster would come in and 6-0.

You're welcome to play games and make a case for Magnezone through testing. I still think it's a crutch on average. I can admit, that it's decent on dragmags teams... but dragmag teams themselves aren't that great. They're ok.

**Arcticblast** · Sep 21st, 2012, 6:25:45 PM

Moving on from Magnezone, it seems like there are really only four common Choice Scarfers anymore - Terrakion, Genesect, Infernape, and Rotom-W. Magnezone is sorely outclassed and not that common with Scarf, Thundurus-T isn't that common, and most other Scarfers seem to have just fallen off the radar. I find that the only Scarfer I ever run anymore is Terrakion, although my standards for a Scarfer are admittedly tight. Has anyone used a different Choice Scarf Pokemon to much success?

Lord of Bays · Sep 21st, 2012, 6:43:15 PM

I've been running into Scarf Infernape a lot, actually. He completely cockblocks Scarf Genesect, and I was wondering what some of you were doing to deal with it, if you see him. I posted this same question in the Genesect thread a few hours ago but no one has responded yet.

~~superbadd~~ · Sep 21st, 2012, 7:48:32 PM

In dw ou, I remember leading with offensive doexys-s with fire punch to kill genesect at the start of the match. Let me just say that killing genesect at the beginning of the match was a MAJOR relief on my team. As others said before, genesect is quite versatile, as a result, it can do a number on anything so long as it has the appropriate move. I've been trying to find an unpredictable scarfer that's faster than genesect and carries a strong enough fire move to kill it, but no luck. Just because of the amount of strain and pressure genesect puts on team building, I think it's definitely suspect worthy. Broken? Idk, but at least it needs to be looked at with so many people complaining about it.

Ricky Horror · Sep 21st, 2012, 9:03:47 PM

I hate Genesect having to tweak Evs for certain Pokemon, so that it won't obtain a boost is ridiculous to say the least. Dugtrio, along with that tin can really stress, even to run Shed Shell... Which is a piece of crap item that has no utility just to escape their little duo. I've seen a few players run a few random Pokemon with protect to scout out my own Genesect( yea I know I said I hate,but its so good). Terrakion should not have protect to scout a U-turn, so that Dugtrio comes in on it. It's absurd, but wth it won't be changed since that would involve a complex ban.

alkinesthetase · Sep 21st, 2012, 9:12:18 PM

can we please not turn this into a repeat of the general suspect discussion thread? kthx

as for tornadus-t, i have never had an easy time killing that bastard with stall. it's not especially hard to stay alive against it, but as soon as you deal actual damage to it, it uturns and throws away all your hard work. i can see taunt being a huge problem though since it cuts off protect, which is a pink blob's best way to handle superpower. probably the best LO tornadus-t set is hurric/superpower/uturn/fourth with the fourth being either taunt (mess with stall) or rain dance (mess with sun). extra coverage moves are of limited usefulness when you can just uturn.

genesect... taking it down is a lot like taking down scizor. yes they play very differently, but in the end they both like to behave like slippery little bastards that uturn away from everything. gotta get hazards down to take care of that stuff. stall really hates ebelt bluffing scarf; you think you can switch in on a lock and suddenly the coverage just destroys you. shed shell heatran ftw. i'm more concerned about genesect in the rain honestly because, although sun sect gets flamethrower pseudostab (much more useful coverage than bug buzz), rain sect has the support of rain to force out heatran, meaning your best counter to genesect will pretty much always have a shaky time coming in.

as for unpredictable scarfer that outspeeds and kills genesect, lord of bays had it just before you: infernape. bajillion move options, and it's basically guaranteed to have something that will murder genesect. i deal with infernape via latias, mostly (setup? roar that shit. otherwise the only se moves it has on you are hp ice - shit ass weak - and uturn) but admittedly you take quite a bit from uturn depending on the item; hp ice is laughable though. ofc infernape also has a useless defensive typing coupled by an absolute utter lack of bulk, but it's not like anyone plays infernape for the bulk (duh) so it can probably make an okay check to genesect.

~~superbadd~~ · Sep 21st, 2012, 9:34:54 PM

I think it's fair to talk about suspects when the suspect thread is mia.

Infernape isn't an unpredictable scarfer, I think you misunderstood. By unpredictable, I mean it has a surprise factor. I want a scarf user that doesn't normally run scarf and packs a fire type move. No sane person would leave their genesect on an infernape in the beginning of the match under any circumstance. I liked deoxys-s b/c it could outspeed genesect and no one usually expects a LO fire punch to OHKO. I tried celebi, but its HP fire was way too weak. I guess mew might be an option with scarf overheat....

Sep 21st, 2012, 10:21:16 AM	#1778
LucaroarkZ Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,128 San Diego, CA	The thing is, though, Magnezone is 100% useless unless the opponent has a Steel it can actually effectively trap. Its usefulness is just extremely limited. In addition, Scizor usage is starting to decrease and Heatran usage is starting to rise thanks to one of the Pokemon it checks (Genesect), and guess what? Magnezone is ass against Heatran. Even then, Magnezone loses to non-Choiced Genesect anyway. That pretty much leaves Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Forretress. Forretress, however, can predict your switch-in and go for Earthquake, and you may occasionally run into Skarmory or Forretress using Shed Shell. Also, Zacchaeus, I think you forgot in the Skarmory calcs that Gothitelle learns Thunderbolt. Also, no one uses SpDef Skarm. __________________ "If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand." - Milton Friedman I am not lucaroark on Pokemon Showdown. I'm always on PS as Adamant Zoroark.

Sep 21st, 2012, 10:54:45 AM	#1780
PenguinX slow loris ˁ(⦿ᴥ⦿)ˀ Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 430	Nobody uses Earthquake Forretress. IMO Magnezone and Gothitelle can't really be compared. Although there is some overlap between what they trap, Gothitelle's Psychic STAB is far weaker than Magnezone's Thunderbolt and as such is much easier to set-up on after it gets a KO. It will often rely on 4x super effective hits to get a bunch of its KOs too (think HP Ice / HP Fire / Signal Beam etc), which again, are incredibly easy to set-up on. Gothitelle has a much harder time running a non-choiced set since it really needs either the power of Choice Specs or the speed of Choice Scarf to beat most of the Pokemon you want it to without being taken out itself in the process. Gothitelle is also incredibly hard-pressed to beat Ferrothorn in Rain (Scarf just flat-out loses), and is nowhere near as good a check to Scizor as Magnezone is, again, often losing to it in Rain. People act as if Magnezone has no uses outside of trapping steels too. Even if your opponent's steels are Heatran and Lucario or something, Magnezone still has an insanely powerful Thunderbolt to throw around, and with Specs has very few safe switch-ins outside of Ground-types and Blissey/Chansey. Magnezone can Volt Switch on Skarmory to take it out without being set-up fodder for the next Pokemon that comes in, unlike Gothitelle. Gothitelle is a better general trapper but if you want a reliable way of dispatching most Scizor / Ferrothorn / Forretress / Jirachi etc then Magnezone is still the way to go. Also probably should mention that Gothitelle has to rely on Hidden Power way too much to get past a bunch of the stuff every claims it traps, for example it often can't beat both Gliscor and Scizor / Forretress. Its still a good mon but relying so much on Hidden Power means its nowhere near the catch-all trapper everyone makes it out to be. __________________ http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc...ho5ko1_400.gif

Sep 21st, 2012, 11:06:55 AM	#1781
PK Gaming Moderator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 4,564 Sumuru city	So I guess I should clear things up. My intention was to discredit Magnezone, but I never implied that it was flat out unviable. Magnezone is viable alright, though how often it comes in handy is questionable; it's garbage late game or after steel-type has been removed. Even if it does trap a Steel-type, that alone does not guarantee a game. The very fact that it invites a ton of offensive Pokemon to set up on it is a clear detriment. Anecdotal evidence: When i'm matched up against zone users and i'm using Forretress, I won't even bother spinning or laying down SR (unless I NEED too) and simply Volt Switch every time Magnezone comes in. If I'm always voltswitch/uturn/switching into Terrakion / Garchomp / etc Magnezone turns into a straight up liability. Another thing, it doesn't really synergize well with most Pokemon, and it's ability to check Dragons is hilariously overrated. It's one of the worst Dragon-type checks in the game. Hell on average it's usually not even a check, i'd classify more as "A Pokemon that can survive 1 hit from strong Dragon-type moves" which is admittedly cool I "guess" but on average you're just using it as a sacrificial lamb. I still feel like that team slot could be better devoted to using another Pokemon. BW2 is FILLED with good Pokemon that can actually pull their own weight against most teams. Furthermore, no Steel-type (barring Genesect) is so "ridiculously impossible" to take down (it's been mentioned that it can't even trap certain Steel-types), so I don't really see overwhelming need to using Magnezone and waste a team slot. Speaking of of Genesect's removal, Magnezone can only trap Genesect if it's allowed itself to get trapped by killing a Pokemon with. Which already means lost one of your most important Pokemon if Genesect has allowed itself to use Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Bug Buzz... not good. FYI, It cannot trap non-choiced Genesect unless it's running Scarf itself. It also can't trap Scarf sets that have their SpA boosted, and it's raining. It's not a very reliable Gene trapper (but probably the best thing we have) and tbh most of the players I've seen deal with Genesect by playing around it in general. Perhaps down the line, Magnezone could become a solid Pokemon simply because it can stop Genesect. (Random musings on my part) Honestly, I'd be quite surprised if comp level players have a hard time with any steel-types really. It might just be me, but i've never gotten the overwhelming NEED to use Magnezone, and I use DRAGONS constantly. As an aside, I might give of the impression that i'm some infallible god player, but i'm not. I was very much cognizant of my original "Magnezone" post, and for the most part it was a joke. I'm serious now however; I honestly think that Magnezone is a crutch in BW2. __________________

Sep 21st, 2012, 11:22:46 AM	#1782
*Jumpman16* np: Michael Jackson - 'Mon in the Mirror (Dream World mix off the "Black or White" album) Administrator** Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,738 Fuqua: Where business cases are read and devils are blue	Don't people use Sub Zone anymore? Not to play pokemon beats pokemon with move but if you're using Volt Switch from Forry when Zone comes in and the Zone uses sub, both your Terrakion and Garchomp can be fucked pretty badly by the threat of TB on -1 SpD or HP Ice, both of which are standard. A lot of offensive pokemon can't set up on Subzone is basically my point. __________________ You haven't trolled till you've trolled in real life. Read A Mullet's Tale for reference if you haven't yet!

Sep 21st, 2012, 11:45:56 AM	#1785
PenguinX slow loris ˁ(⦿ᴥ⦿)ˀ Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 430	If Forretress is Volt Switching out every time Magnezone comes in then it isn't setting up Spikes or Rapid Spinning. They get a switch to whatever they want on Magnezone but you are 100% denying Forretress from really doing anything. You can claim Magnezone isn't "beating" Forretress every time it uses Volt Switch but it is effectively preventing them from setting up hazards or spinning at the risk of just being trapped, which goes a very long way to breaking down stall. Volt Switch Forretress doesn't beat Magnezone any more than something like U-Turn Gliscor beats Skarmory. Magnezone effectively still wins the match-up because its presence alone prevents Forretress from really doing anything itself. __________________ http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc...ho5ko1_400.gif

Sep 21st, 2012, 12:01:40 PM	#1786
PK Gaming Moderator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 4,564 Sumuru city	ok I get to keep Forretress so your Choice Scarf moxie Salamence doesn't sweep me. That's a win in my book!!! Why are we even arguing in this way, it's completely circular (2 pages now we'll be arguing about who won in our hypothetical match). Forretress VSing doesn't happen all of the time, like I mentioned before there are things to consider (how much do you really need SR / spin) and my example doesn't just extend to Forretress; it applies to other Steel-types in general. my main point still stands, it's not a very good Pokemon. It's slow as molasses, it loses to practically everything in OU in a 1 v1 matchup, and it's dead weight against faster paced teams, unless you give it a scarf (and i'll counter with "you should use choice magneton instead" since that thing can at least outspeed Tornadus-T), it only beats a few Steel-types (some of which can escape with the proper move). If you're trying argue that Magnezone, you should mention its ability to beat Genesect, which up until now nobody has made concerted effort in trying to point out. __________________

Sep 21st, 2012, 12:27:34 PM	#1787
PenguinX slow loris ˁ(⦿ᴥ⦿)ˀ Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 430	You just prioritize hazards in the early turns of the game, as you would against standard volt turn. If they dont want to take sr and spikes damage every time they come in then they can spin, but they just get trapped by zone and die as they do. If they don't want to get trapped by zone they have to volt switch and let your hazards stick around. Forretress is 100% checkmated by Magnezone, you really cannot deny that. Obviously I'm not suggesting cycling through the same routine of "switch-in zone on volt switch" when you don't have hazards up, but from experience Volt Switch Forretress is a poor check at best to Magnezone + any dragon when there are any hazards in play whatsoever. Faster paced teams still have steel types, and if anything are just as susceptible to Magnezone as they are less likely to have stuff that can tank your STABs. Choiced Scizor and Genesect, again, end up checkmated by Magnezone as they can't risk doing anything but U-Turn repeatedly without just being trapped, and as such only really get one revenge-kill per game. Heavy offense with Magnezone tears any offense team that relies on Scarf Genesect a new one. edit: okay I'm actually stopping now, I do agree that Magnezone is worse now than in bw1 but not for any of the reasons everyone else has said. Its still a better option for a dedicated steel trapper than Goth will ever be though, because it actually beats the steels you are trying to trap. __________________ http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc...ho5ko1_400.gif Last edited by PenguinX; Sep 21st, 2012 at 12:37:37 PM.

Sep 21st, 2012, 3:26:19 PM	#1790
PK Gaming Moderator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 4,564 Sumuru city	There's also the fact that Tornadus-T with taunt straight up beats stall on it's own. Chansey & Blissey? Pfft. It only needs to wear down Jirachi (which isn't even that hard.) #lovingthismetagamesohard --- I also don't think Genesect is broken, but I'll have to elaborate on that some other day. __________________

Sep 21st, 2012, 3:31:38 PM	#1791
Scarfwynaut Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 2,216 PA	I don't think I have ever lost to a taunt Tornadus with out getting seriously unlucky, or if it had like superpower, all you have to do is click seismic toss, hurricane is like a 5HKO. __________________ VM me for a RMT rate if your team is defensive. I am not Scarf Wynaut on Pokemon Showdown.

Sep 21st, 2012, 3:53:35 PM	#1792
PK Gaming Moderator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 4,564 Sumuru city	It's not like Taunt is being used over anything important. It still has access to Hurricane, Superpower and U-turn. With Taunt you prevent status, wish and straight up healing. If you taunt Blissey / Chansey at max health, it's literally impossible for them to beat you 1 v 1. Furthermore, Regeneration let's you heal simply by switching... I think you just played Tornadus-T users. I should have been more specific; Taunt Tornadus-T with a little bit of team support destroys stall. A combination of Genesect + Tornadus-T + Dugtrio is super effective against stall. __________________

Sep 21st, 2012, 6:25:45 PM	#1795
Arcticblast ~ Moderator Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 3,007 #serperiors Mentor	Moving on from Magnezone, it seems like there are really only four common Choice Scarfers anymore - Terrakion, Genesect, Infernape, and Rotom-W. Magnezone is sorely outclassed and not that common with Scarf, Thundurus-T isn't that common, and most other Scarfers seem to have just fallen off the radar. I find that the only Scarfer I ever run anymore is Terrakion, although my standards for a Scarfer are admittedly tight. Has anyone used a different Choice Scarf Pokemon to much success? __________________ New to Smogon? Afraid to jump into discussion? Introduce yourself! ------------------- Fail Cup \| Scramble! \| RMTs: Night Stall (OU) \| ARcTicblast \| Demon Spawn \| signature art by Zracknel additional credit to Pocket and AccidentalGreed

Sep 21st, 2012, 6:43:15 PM	#1796
Lord of Bays Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 493	I've been running into Scarf Infernape a lot, actually. He completely cockblocks Scarf Genesect, and I was wondering what some of you were doing to deal with it, if you see him. I posted this same question in the Genesect thread a few hours ago but no one has responded yet.

Sep 21st, 2012, 7:48:32 PM	#1797
~~superbadd~~ Banned deucer. Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 357	In dw ou, I remember leading with offensive doexys-s with fire punch to kill genesect at the start of the match. Let me just say that killing genesect at the beginning of the match was a MAJOR relief on my team. As others said before, genesect is quite versatile, as a result, it can do a number on anything so long as it has the appropriate move. I've been trying to find an unpredictable scarfer that's faster than genesect and carries a strong enough fire move to kill it, but no luck. Just because of the amount of strain and pressure genesect puts on team building, I think it's definitely suspect worthy. Broken? Idk, but at least it needs to be looked at with so many people complaining about it.

Sep 21st, 2012, 9:03:47 PM	#1798
Ricky Horror Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 254 Smogon Place of Tyrant Mods..	I hate Genesect having to tweak Evs for certain Pokemon, so that it won't obtain a boost is ridiculous to say the least. Dugtrio, along with that tin can really stress, even to run Shed Shell... Which is a piece of crap item that has no utility just to escape their little duo. I've seen a few players run a few random Pokemon with protect to scout out my own Genesect( yea I know I said I hate,but its so good). Terrakion should not have protect to scout a U-turn, so that Dugtrio comes in on it. It's absurd, but wth it won't be changed since that would involve a complex ban. __________________ Don't look back it'll cease your future. Last edited by Ricky Horror; Sep 21st, 2012 at 9:15:49 PM.

Sep 21st, 2012, 9:12:18 PM	#1799
alkinesthetase <~aldarOFF> ill be imagining your face in my toilet alkines Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 714 <ala> canadabros is the strongest bros you can be Mentor	can we please not turn this into a repeat of the general suspect discussion thread? kthx as for tornadus-t, i have never had an easy time killing that bastard with stall. it's not especially hard to stay alive against it, but as soon as you deal actual damage to it, it uturns and throws away all your hard work. i can see taunt being a huge problem though since it cuts off protect, which is a pink blob's best way to handle superpower. probably the best LO tornadus-t set is hurric/superpower/uturn/fourth with the fourth being either taunt (mess with stall) or rain dance (mess with sun). extra coverage moves are of limited usefulness when you can just uturn. genesect... taking it down is a lot like taking down scizor. yes they play very differently, but in the end they both like to behave like slippery little bastards that uturn away from everything. gotta get hazards down to take care of that stuff. stall really hates ebelt bluffing scarf; you think you can switch in on a lock and suddenly the coverage just destroys you. shed shell heatran ftw. i'm more concerned about genesect in the rain honestly because, although sun sect gets flamethrower pseudostab (much more useful coverage than bug buzz), rain sect has the support of rain to force out heatran, meaning your best counter to genesect will pretty much always have a shaky time coming in. as for unpredictable scarfer that outspeeds and kills genesect, lord of bays had it just before you: infernape. bajillion move options, and it's basically guaranteed to have something that will murder genesect. i deal with infernape via latias, mostly (setup? roar that shit. otherwise the only se moves it has on you are hp ice - shit ass weak - and uturn) but admittedly you take quite a bit from uturn depending on the item; hp ice is laughable though. ofc infernape also has a useless defensive typing coupled by an absolute utter lack of bulk, but it's not like anyone plays infernape for the bulk (duh) so it can probably make an okay check to genesect. __________________ <~aldarOFF> alkines is gay <&Theorymon> aldaron you've done it <&Theorymon> now everyone in this channel has been insulted by you at least once my massive mafia roles list

Sep 21st, 2012, 9:34:54 PM	#1800
~~superbadd~~ Banned deucer. Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 357	I think it's fair to talk about suspects when the suspect thread is mia. Infernape isn't an unpredictable scarfer, I think you misunderstood. By unpredictable, I mean it has a surprise factor. I want a scarf user that doesn't normally run scarf and packs a fire type move. No sane person would leave their genesect on an infernape in the beginning of the match under any circumstance. I liked deoxys-s b/c it could outspeed genesect and no one usually expects a LO fire punch to OHKO. I tried celebi, but its HP fire was way too weak. I guess mew might be an option with scarf overheat....