BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[BlackLight]

Originally Posted by Fat Anikrahman1995

@ PK Gaming, your calculation for Kyurem-B's Dragon Claw against Blissey is wrong.
0Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem Black (Neutral) Dragon Claw vs 4HP/252Def Leftovers Blissey (Neutral): 53% - 63% (352 - 417 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/blissey <---You must have not noticed the new ev spread. The change was because of Politoed's Specs Hydro Pump and Hydreigon's Specs Focus Blast.
0 Atk Life Orb Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 294-347 (45.09 - 53.22%) -- 94.14% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock. I know it isn't supposed to use Fusion Bolt with Life Orb. I am just throwing out this calculation here. Ignore this. OK.....how about you answer this question honestly. Kyurem-B has switched in vs your stall team. It threatens to kill your pokemon. Your pokemon does not have protect. Would you switch in your Blissey into Kyurem-B? Most probably not.

We're also ignoring that you don't know what set KB is using, seeing as its item doesn't give it away. (Unless you have hazards, in which case you know its isn't a bulky set with Leftovers.) For all we know, said Kyurem-B could potentially have a Band, and your Blissey is dead.

[Direwolf12]

I've been looking at a damage calculator and checked something out... Serperior could actually be a good counter for Starmie... unless he's holding Choice-Specs he's never going to OHKO Serperior with an EV spread of 0/0/252/4/252/0 (and even with Choice-Specs it's only 56% of the time...) while Serperior can easily OHKO Starmie in return with an UNBOOSTED Leaf-Storm 100% of the time... that means Starmie can never switch into Serperior or risk of being OHKO'ed while Serperior himself can switch in on anything sans maybe the Choice-Specs set and take Starmie out...

Starmie also is OHKO'ed by a +2 Giga-Drain

[alkinesthetase]

trust me, specially defensive serperior is not something you want to be using in OU lol. if you're having problems with starmie, standard rain counters like gastrodon work fine, as do bulky grasses like ferrothorn and specially defensive celebi. you can also easily destroy it with most super effective attacks due to its unremarkable defenses - uturns, tbolts, etc will mince it up.

[Uvood]

If you wanna use Serperior in OU, you should probably be using a leech seed or a dual screen set. Unfortunately, it's outclassed by Sceptile and Venusaur as a leech seeder, and as a dual screener, the only thing it has over most of them is taunt, and you could argue that Azelf is better to use then. If you don't really wanna use Serperior in OU, you should probably wait for Contrary Serperior to be released :P.

[BlackLight]

Originally Posted by Fat Uvood

If you wanna use Serperior in OU, you should probably be using a leech seed or a dual screen set. Unfortunately, it's outclassed by Sceptile and Venusaur as a leech seeder, and as a dual screener, the only thing it has over most of them is taunt, and you could argue that Azelf is better to use then. If you don't really wanna use Serperior in OU, you should probably wait for Contrary Serperior to be released :P.

Lets roll with this topic for a while. For those of you who were into DWBW, how did you find Contrary Serperior, as an offensive Poke?
This is theorymon on my part, but I think Serperior will be a solid choice. A +2 boost to its attacking stat for using its best move is certainly impressive, but it won't be hard to stop if you can check it quick enough.

[ClubbingSealCub]

Originally Posted by Fat BlackLight

Lets roll with this topic for a while. For those of you who were into DWBW, how did you find Contrary Serperior, as an offensive Poke?
This is theorymon on my part, but I think Serperior will be a solid choice. A +2 boost to its attacking stat for using its best move is certainly impressive, but it won't be hard to stop if you can check it quick enough.

When I used it in DWBW, it was pretty underwhelming, because its offensive movepool was limited to Leaf Storm, Giga Drain and Hidden Power.

It gets Dragon Pulse now, which is something at least, so it should be decent once released

[Siggu]

Originally Posted by Fat BlackLight

Lets roll with this topic for a while. For those of you who were into DWBW, how did you find Contrary Serperior, as an offensive Poke?
This is theorymon on my part, but I think Serperior will be a solid choice. A +2 boost to its attacking stat for using its best move is certainly impressive, but it won't be hard to stop if you can check it quick enough.

Contrary Serperior is one of the best offensive SubSeeders, if not the very best, but it has a serious case of a 4MSS because it would really like to have a moveset of Substitute/Leech Seed/Leaf Storm/Hidden Power of choice/Dragon Pulse, and even then Heatran is not even scared of it, regardless of which coverage move it chooses

[Direwolf12]

I guess Sub-Seed works.... but Leaf Storm/Dragon Pulse/HP Fire/Giga Drain is a pretty good offensive set... Dragon Pulse/HP Fire gives him perfect Neutral coverage sans Heatran (who admitably utterly walls him) and has reliable recovery because after a few Contrary Boosts Giga Drain is going to hit pretty hard... but yes if left unchecked he's a monster... spammable 140BP moves are scary...

but I do say an EV Spread of 0/0/252/4/252/0 is the best since it maximizes his solid bulk and he's crazy fast even without investment... any other idea's for EV spread?

[BlackLight]

Originally Posted by Fat Direwolf12

I guess Sub-Seed works.... but Leaf Storm/Dragon Pulse/HP Fire/Giga Drain is a pretty good offensive set... Dragon Pulse/HP Fire gives him perfect Neutral coverage sans Heatran (who admitably utterly walls him) and has reliable recovery because after a few Contrary Boosts Giga Drain is going to hit pretty hard...

but I do say an EV Spread of 0/0/252/4/252/0 is the best since it maximizes his solid bulk and he's crazy fast even without investment... any other idea's for EV spread?

252 Sp Attack is necessary to get as much damage per hit possible. Serperior needs as much power as possible before it gets any real boosts, or else its not really that threatening.
232 Speed and a Timid nature allows him to outspeed positive 110s, which is an incredibly important benchmark. There really isn't much worth EVing for after that, I think, seeing as the only somewhat viable things that are quicker are Tornadus-I and Scolipede at 111 and 112, respectively.
The remaining 24 can go to bulk, since Serperior isn't doing anything else with them. Feel free to take 4 out and put them in a defense stat to give Genesect a certain boost, but he hits you hard anyways, so it might not actually do much.

[Direwolf12]

Originally Posted by Fat BlackLight

252 Sp Attack is necessary to get as much damage per hit possible. Serperior needs as much power as possible before it gets any real boosts, or else its not really that threatening.
232 Speed and a Timid nature allows him to outspeed positive 110s, which is an incredibly important benchmark. There really isn't much worth EVing for after that, I think, seeing as the only somewhat viable things that are quicker are Tornadus-I and Scolipede at 111 and 112, respectively.
The remaining 24 can go to bulk, since Serperior isn't doing anything else with them. Feel free to take 4 out and put them in a defense stat to give Genesect a certain boost, but he hits you hard anyways, so it might not actually do much.

He can actually do a lot of damage even without much investment in SpA... besides maxing out bulk allows him to survive a CB boosted U-Turn from Scizor...

and as for Genesect he can't switch in at will... he has to watch out for HP Fire... which even unboosted can 2-KO him... Serperior has little trouble getting a boost and once he gets one good luck...

[Dracule Mihawk]

Honestly I wouldn't even consider using Serp outside of its dream world ability, and that isn't even released yet. Standard mons used against rain work fine, and outclass serp if you want a water sponge. And if one was to run a moveset on contrary serp, I would personally run HP ground/Dragon pulse/Leafstorm/ then either sub or giga drain. I would leave taking out steels to either magneton or magnezone. Or it can be supplemented with the gene+trio core to take out tran. But to bring this back on topic, how are people doing with TR teams?

[BlackLight]

Originally Posted by Fat Direwolf12

He can actually do a lot of damage even without much investment in SpA... besides maxing out bulk allows him to survive a CB boosted U-Turn from Scizor...

and as for Genesect he can't switch in at will... he has to watch out for HP Fire... which even unboosted can 2-KO him... Serperior has little trouble getting a boost and once he gets one good luck...

Scizor's CB U-Turn is a non-issue, seeing as Serperior should (imo) be packing HP Fire. Bullet Punch is more of an issue.
Regarding Genesect, you're right. Leaf Storm + HP Fire 2HKOs regardless of Sp Attack. However, you do get OHKOed without some bulk with the correct attack, ie Ice Beam and U-Turn, depending on the kind of boost you give it.

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat BlackLight

Scizor's CB U-Turn is a non-issue, seeing as Serperior should (imo) be packing HP Fire. Bullet Punch is more of an issue.
Regarding Genesect, you're right. Leaf Storm + HP Fire 2HKOs regardless of Sp Attack. However, you do get OHKOed without some bulk with the correct attack, ie Ice Beam and U-Turn, depending on the kind of boost you give it.

First, I expect HP Fire will be the most common option for Serperior, but not necessarily the best one. Depending on the usage of Dragons vs. Genesect and Scizor, Serperior may very well be seen running Hidden Power Ice instead, or my favorite option, HP Rock, which gives Serp the best overall coverage to sweep with (lets it beat Dragonite, Salamence, Volcarona, . Also, let's not forget Serp can just lay down a Sub for Scizor's U-Turn, and then Leaf Storm something else that comes in off the U-Turn for more SAtk boosts.

Finally, if Genesect gets banned like it should then it shouldn't be an issue for Serperior. However, if by some act of a higher power, Genesect is not banned from OU, then bulky Serperior is definitely something that people ought to be running. In fact, I can't imagine why someone would want to run a full-on offensive Serperior with 252/252 EVs. It has such great defenses, they shouldn't be put to waste. Besides, with every Leaf Storm giving a +2 SAtk boost, it's not like it's difficult to get a ton of stat boosts under your belt very easily, and at that point, whether you're running 252 SAtk EVs or a lot less than that, Leaf Storm is still going to be ridiculously powerful.

[jle1076]

Serperior can learn dragon pulse though so HP Fire is a much better choice when it comes to coverage

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat jle1076

Serperior can learn dragon pulse though so HP Fire is a much better choice when it comes to coverage

Really? I was under the impression that Substitute/Leech Seed/Leaf Storm/[insert move of choice here] was the generally accepted set for Serperior. That's interesting to know.

[Uvood]

I can definitely see Contrary Serperior succeeding in this metagame, it's two perfect partners, Genesect and Dugtrio, can easily take care of it's Number.1 counter Heatran, opening up the opposing team too your sweep. It has a great base speed, enabling it to out-speed key threats that would have annoyed it otherwise, and it's natural bulk will, most likely, allow it to live a few hits from choice scarfers and retaliate with a +2 Giga Drain too heal off the damage. I really hope they will release it soon, I really like Serperior as a pokemon (as well as Sheer force Feraligatr :3).

Edit: btw, how does HP fire fare in rain? Does it hinder it in ohkoing certain threats? If it does, it might be smart to run a weather of your own to keep rain of the field.

[ThePillsburyDoughBoy]

I don't have any experience playing Dream World OU, but from theorymoning in regards to the current meta I think Taunt is going to be a very underrated option. It would perform really well against Deoxys-D teams since you could outpace Deoxys-D and Taunt, passively increase your Spa to beat Deoxys-D or to damage whatever comes in next. It's nice that you can break Dragoite's Multiscale and proceed to OHKO with +2 Dragon Pulse. You will also be able to prevent the pink blobs (really any special wall) from healing and prevent hazard set up for a lot of leads (Mew as an example).

edit for below: You do not have to use the third Leaf Storm, leaving you with 4 PP. The second one kills it and if you are not using Life Orb you could finish off with Dragon Pulse. But what Deoxys-D user won't let their precious hazards get set up while getting boosted in their face?

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat ThePillsburyDoughBoy

I don't have any experience playing Dream World OU, but from theorymoning in regards to the current meta I think Taunt is going to be a very underrated option. It would perform really well against Deoxys-D teams since you could outpace Deoxys-D and Taunt, passively increase your Spa to beat Deoxys-D or to damage whatever comes in next. It's nice that you can break Dragoite's Multiscale and proceed to OHKO with +2 Dragon Pulse. You will also be able to prevent the pink blobs (really any special wall) from healing and prevent hazard set up for a lot of leads (Mew as an example).

Only problem there is that it could take 3 Leaf Storms to kill Deoxys-D, and since it has Pressure you'll only have 2 PP left after all of that...Leaf Storm's PP is actually an issue, Stall teams with a lot of Protect users can stall it out and then finish Serp off. I hate it when PP becomes an issue, but that's how it's looking for Serp. I know that happened a lot in DW OU.

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Does anybody else want to try Eelektross out in BW2 OU? It got a lot of hand tricks this generation. Thunder Punch, Fire Punch, Superpower, Giga Drain, Drain Punch, Knock-Off, Aqua Tail, Sleep Talk, and Super Fang? I personally can't decide whether to go special, physical, or mixed! It just has such a giant movepool. You'd think there'd be a use for it somewhere.

[alkinesthetase]

^ sadly while its movepool and mixed attacking stats are fabulous (it even gets freaking coil), it has slightly subpar bulk for an offensive mon (80/80/80 - imo the benchmark for "reasonable bulk on an attacker" is hydreigon's 92/90/90) and on top of that an absolutely horrific speed tier (50 base) that means it will be taking a lot of neutral hits on that subpar bulk if it tries to attack or set up. it's nice to have levitate and all, since that means you have no weaknesses, but with defenses like that, you won't exactly be shaking off neutral hits from OU powerhouses.

tough to be a bulky sweeper, even with a move as good as coil, when your defenses are so thoroughly unremarkable. with no moves that boost its speed, i'm feeling like the best way to use it is trick room, and using TR on a team (since tross doesn't learn its own TR) just for the sake of facilitating one slow attacker is questionable. you'd end up playing full TR - not that it's impossible, but at that point you really have to wonder why you're still using eelektross.

the most appealing thing seems to be something along the lines of the NU specially defensive bulky coil set - even with that broad satking movepool, you can't really capitalize on it in a tier as fast as OU, with something as slow as eelektross. coil is really the only distinguishing edge eelektross has in OU, if any at all

[EnterRAYZORS]

@ Cipher
Outside (and inside really) elektross has no use in OU. Its too frail! I agree it has good typing but its bulk doesnt live up to that. As it cant just tank hits, and i dont think it gets any reliable form of recovery. I personally feel its a waste of a team slot and is competing aginst Jolteon (who struggles now as it is) and Rotom W for a team slot. (And Rotom is thriving in talent in this meta)

[jle1076]

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

Really? I was under the impression that Substitute/Leech Seed/Leaf Storm/[insert move of choice here] was the generally accepted set for Serperior. That's interesting to know.

When his dream world ability is released after a stab leaf storm he can become a potent sweeper so that's why I said that. As of now Im sure you were right for him to be a subseeder but he will be a decent sweeper in his tier if revenge killers are gone

[alexwolf]

Sereprior @ Expert Belt
Trait: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid nature
- Leaf Storm
- HP Fire
- Dragon Pulse
- Giga Drain

I believe that this will be by far Serperior's most common set. Scarf Genesect is OHKOed on the switch with HP Fire after SR, and same for Scizor, which may want to come in to Bullet Punch you. Also Dragon Pulse does 65% min to Scarf Salamence, meaning it can't switch in at all. Expert Belt is chosen because you don't really need the extra power, and the LO recoil puts you easier into RK range from faster Pokemon or priority users. At +2 the only Pokemon that can wall you are: Chansey, Blissey, Amoonguss, SpD Celebi with T-Wave, Heatran, Tornadus-T, and Jirachi IF Body Slam paralyzes you. All of them can be revenge killed or at least crippled badly by Specs Gothitelle with Psychic, HP Ground, Signal Beam, and Trick. Serperior seems really awesome now that it has access to Dragon Pulse! I can't see the time he will be released. Scarf Serperior might be a terror too for offensive teams, after their Steel types are weakened/eliminated, and their Dragon types weakened.

[Pocket]

Let's get back to reality, and discuss Pokemon that exist, thanks.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

I asked about how good Heatran is at setting up rocks, and nobody spoke anything :(

Again, Heatran to me has been an unreliable SRer, because of the number of Water-types that force him out and Rain. I have to predict a switch or waste time using SR when I could defeat that threat easily. Also, a common spinner, Starmie, can put Heatran on a hard position, because it can both spin away the hazard that Heatran just setup-ed, or it can OHKO Heatran with Hydro Pump. That's why I've paired my Heatran with a Jellicent that has a specially defensive EV spread that let him survive Starmie's Thunderbolt and stall it out with a combination of Will-O-Wisp and Recover.

The fact that Dugtrio exists also doesn't help. Unless Heatran has a Shed Shell or an intact Air Balloon, the opponent can just trap my Heatran and then spin the hazards away later on battle. Or if it has a Magic Bouncer, it can predict me using hazards, and then U-Turn to Dugtrio, although most of time my opponent's don't know that I am using Stealth Rock, this lets me setup Stealth Rock with at least some insurance.