Smogon University PO Statistics — June 2012

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Originally Posted by Fat Antar

As I understand it, the decision to ban Sand Stream was not just because of Sand Veil, but also Sand Rush Stoutland.

Yeah, it was a combination of a few of things (judging by the many walls of text I've tried to get through in the UU forum lol). If any one of them is removed, I would imagine some people would call for a retest tbh.

But I know how controversial this issue is for some people, so I don't want to start another arguement, but that's what I'd envision would happen anyway (not saying it's either right or wrong).

[Ninja_13]

Just FYI, Snow Warning and Sand Stream aren't listed in the BL section of the first post.

EDIT: Or I guess, checking again, that it only includes the Pokemon, since Moody and Drizzle/SS aren't in Ubers. If that was intentional, ignore me.

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat Ninja_13

Just FYI, Snow Warning and Sand Stream aren't listed in the BL section of the first post.

They aren't Pokemon.

[Antar*]

Originally Posted by Fat Ninja_13

Just FYI, Snow Warning and Sand Stream aren't listed in the BL section of the first post.

I didn't list abilities, just pokemon. I should probably go ahead and list abilities, though...

[Thorhammer]

Originally Posted by Fat Antar

I didn't list abilities, just pokemon. I should probably go ahead and list abilities, though...

Well, they aren't relevant to the usage statistics, especially since the only ones that would be listed are the ones that are being noted for not being permitted.

[Swamp-Rocket]

The stats say that Sand Veil is banned from UU, but it is actually Sand Stream that is banned from that tier. Just saying.

[Pocket]

Isn't Shell Smash and Baton Pass banned in RU or NU (don't remember which)

Thanks again for the stats, Antar!!

PS: DW UU, what?! Is that an actual tier now?

[Scubasteve23]

It's weird to see Scarft and Mienshao dropping down but it'll be nice seeing how porygon-z will work in the same tier as p2

[TropiOUs]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Isn't Shell Smash and Baton Pass banned in RU or NU (don't remember which)

Edit: bs misread, it is banned on both tiers.

[Jobriq]

What is the requirement for something to be RU, cuz I'm confused how 3 mons can move from NU to RU but only golurk dropped down. Speaking of golurk dropping, and NU losing cryogonal, rapid spin will be worse than ever in NU

[Ninja_13]

Originally Posted by Fat Thorhammer

Well, they aren't relevant to the usage statistics

This is false; they are completely relevant, since if they weren't banned, the usage statistics for the relevant tiers would be fairly radically different.

It's really only for the sake of completeness that I mentioned it, though.

Originally Posted by Fat Jobriq

What is the requirement for something to be RU, cuz I'm confused how 3 mons can move from NU to RU but only golurk dropped down. Speaking of golurk dropping, and NU losing cryogonal, rapid spin will be worse than ever in NU

> or = ~3.4% usage over 3 months in RU = RU

< ~3.4% usage over 3 months in RU = NU

That's all that matters.

[Zebraiken*]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Isn't Shell Smash and Baton Pass banned in RU or NU (don't remember which)

Both, actually. It was banned by RU making it banned in NU as well.

[Antar*]

Originally Posted by Fat Swamp-Rocket

The stats say that Sand Veil is banned from UU, but it is actually Sand Stream that is banned from that tier. Just saying.

Whoops! Typo.

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Isn't Shell Smash and Baton Pass banned in RU or NU (don't remember which)

Knew I was missing something...

PS: DW UU, what?! Is that an actual tier now?

DW UU is like PU--a tier that only exists on paper (for DW OU players, DW UU serves to differentiate from the most-used pokes in DW OU). Although when PS implements Dream World tiers, you will be able to challenge an opponent directly to a DW UU battle (but there will be no DW UU ladder).

[Weav]

Well, with sand banned from UU, i foresee stoutland dropping. That, and hippopotas and snover will get almost no use in UU because without their weather summoning abilities, they're pretty much useless.

[LucaroarkZ]

I think in the beginning, Stoutland is sure to fall to RU. However, over time I think people will realize how good it really is in OU (especially with it gaining Superpower in BW2, Superpower >>>>>> Fire Fang), so its OU usage may eventually go up. (Note: I'm a Stoutland user so my point of view may be a little biased)

Sucks that Sand Stream got banned from UU only shortly after Sandslash got Sand Rush, though. Guess I'm not spamming that in UU. Oh well, guess I'm just using it in OU.

[Antar*]

Originally Posted by Fat Weav

Well, with sand banned from UU, i foresee stoutland dropping. That, and hippopotas and snover will get almost no use in UU because without their weather summoning abilities, they're pretty much useless.

Hippopotas and Snover will almost certainly end up PU without their abilties.

Too bad that, under the current system, where you can only drop one tier per cycle, that won't happen for NINE MONTHS.

[Thorhammer]

Maybe make a special exception for them?

[Swamp-Rocket]

I'd actually say it would be best to move both of them to NFEs, kind of like what happened to Vulpix, or just move them to Little Cup. I mean, nobody is really going to use them anyway, they have evolved forms, and it is pretty obvious they are dropping to PU.

[Antar*]

Originally Posted by Fat Thorhammer

Maybe make a special exception for them?

I've been considering proposing that, but I really don't want to set the precident, especially for two pokemon vwho probably won't even be used in PU.

Originally Posted by Fat Swamp-Rocket

I'd actually say it would be best to move both of them to NFEs, kind of like what happened to Vulpix, or just move them to Little Cup. I mean, nobody is really going to use them anyway, they have evolved forms, and it is pretty obvious they are dropping to PU.

Little Cup is a separate entity. The standard tiers have NO bearing on Little Cup. As an example, Munchlax is RU but allowed in LC.

NFE is also not a tier. On the analysis pages, it should really only be used to indicate pokes that aren't usable in any standard tier. On my tier list (OP of this thread), I list them separately from other PU pokes to highlight the fully-evolved pokes that still don't have a place anywhere. Note that there are plenty of viable (for PU) pokes on my NFE list, including Duosion (just dropped from NU), Zweilous (most powerful Outrage in the game) and Natu (Magic Bounce in a tier starved for spinners? I'll take three!).

Edit: Re: Vulpix -- IIRC, Vulpix was never Borderline. DROUGHT was. I know it was on some BL list a while back, but on the simulator, it was always playable, only I marked its Dream World ability as unreleased until I managed to get our Drought-ban script working. That allowed Vulpix to fall to the lowest tiers on its own (as they were created, I believe), without us having to move it there ourselves. Again, this is if memory serves.

Edit 2: Actually, according to this commit, Vulpix did indeed go straight from BL to NU (or PU, if you'd rather). This was unintentional (I thought Vulpix was ALREADY NU/PU), but you're correct that there is precedent, even if it was just due to a typo.

[Thorhammer]

Hmm. I recall reading someone saying recently that Beartic was still an obstacle to banning Sand Veil / Snow Cloak, but checking things, it and all other Pokemon with the Sand Veil or Snow Cloak abilities can currently access other abilities, and with less or no movepool restrictions as opposed to earlier. So such a ban shouldn't be an issue, should it?

[Nintendothon101]

I'm not surprised that mew went up to OU. I use the standard physically defensive mew on almost every team I have, and it's awesome.

I'm also not surprised that Chansey stayed in OU. I just don't like the standard sets that smogon gave her. I myself use a specially defensive Chansey, and that thing can take any special attack for days.

Not surprised about Scrafty dropping down, but holy crap MIENSHAO?? That (for me) was unexpected. Mienshao isn't the best poke in the world, but I thought for sure that he would stay in OU. Oh, well, he'll wreak havoc on any UU team not having crobat/slowbro. :]

Can someone please explain to me why sand stream and snow warning are banned in UU and under?

[bluemon]

Originally Posted by Fat Nintendothon101

I'm not surprised that mew went up to OU. I use the standard physically defensive mew on almost every team I have, and it's awesome.

I'm also not surprised that Chansey stayed in OU. I just don't like the standard sets that smogon gave her. I myself use a specially defensive Chansey, and that thing can take any special attack for days.

Not surprised about Scrafty dropping down, but holy crap MIENSHAO?? That (for me) was unexpected. Mienshao isn't the best poke in the world, but I thought for sure that he would stay in OU. Oh, well, he'll wreak havoc on any UU team not having crobat/slowbro. :]

Can someone please explain to me why sand stream and snow warning are banned in UU and under?

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=348

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...00&postcount=1

[Twins]

You Smogon players are slow. Beta has had UU Scrafty, Mienshao, and even Toxicroak until this month, and RU Escavalier (actually it's NU now xD), Cryogonal and Magmortar for ages already.

But yeah, this should be quite interesting. Two amazing fighting types in OU, especially Mienshao, dropping down a tier. The metagame will be shaken up for sure.

And seriously, every single one of the BL pokemon needs a lot more usage. Staraptor rapes entire teams with Brave Bird+Close Combat, Wobbuffet revenge kills choice users every single time and causes tons of mindgames, and Kyurem has dat 660 BST and STAB Blizzard. They do have their share of problems, mainly survivability for all of them, but when played correctly and with proper team support, they're extremely scary.

Amoongus is being overhyped so much that I wouldn't be surprised it it shoots all the way up to UU, or even OU at this rate.

[Danger Mouse]

I foresee Stoutland ending up in OU as a staple on Sand teams now that it has superpower. I had this monster save me from a dragonite sweep and proceed to rip the opposing team in half. Just give it Return, Pursuit/Crunch, Ice Fang/Wild Charge, Superpower. You have the best revenge killer in the sand.

[LucaroarkZ]

Am I the only person who is surprised Latias has not dropped to UU yet?

Before I get a ton of hate for this post, bear with me for a second. I was using Latias recently, and it is just so.... Weak. That's all, weak. I know you're supposed to rack up a bunch of Calm Minds and whatnot, but the more you try to rack up Calm Minds, the more likely you are to get critted. Doesn't it just suck when you've racked up 2 or 3 Calm Minds, and when you go for the fourth knowing you can wall the HP Ices from the opponent's special attacker, you get critted and die? I don't like that. If I were to use any Calm Mind sweeper, I'd use one that can get sufficient power from just one or two Calm Minds, such as Latios or Keldeo.

Another bad aspect to Latias (this applies to Latios as well): Pursuit weakness. Tyranitar can always trap you with ease, and if Latias lacks HP Fire, Scizor completely counters and traps you with ease. In fact, just about anything that carries Pursuit can trap you. Weavile? Yep. Escavalier? Sure, as long as Latias doesn't have HP Fire. Hell, I'm sure I could pull it off with a Scarf Beedrill if I tried hard enough.

Not only those, but... Latios is just better overall. I've used both as a Calm Minder, and Latios I thought was the better one. As for Choice sets, there's obviously little to no reason to use Latias over Latios. Both get easily trapped by just about anything carrying Pursuit, but Latios has more power. Maybe Latias could pull off a more defensive set, but I must ask, why would anyone use a defensive Pokemon that is weak to Pursuit? Why? So, in that category, Latias would be overshadowed by walls that are not weak to Pursuit.

Okay, I'll look at it the other way. Latias is a good Breloom counter! You know who else can switch in on Mach Punch/Bullet Seed? Dragonite. Is Dragonite weak to Pursuit? No. Can Dragonite OHKO Breloom? Yes. Well, sure, Latias can use Psyshock or something, but Psychic is a very bad offensive typing.

Now, I'll concede a little. I have had some success with Latias. But, I've had much more success with Latios. So, when it comes to the Lati twins, clearly Latios is the better choice. So, can someone explain to me why Latias is still managing to stay in OU? No, seriously. When, from my experience, it's just turned out to be an overall mediocre Pokemon, I just don't understand how it's stayed in OU for so long. In my opinion it's better in Ubers, where it can use Soul Dew. But, down in OU, you've got Soul Dew Clause in effect I believe, so that already hurts its potential considerably.