What are we going to do about Tyranitar?

[Tendie]

Okay, so this is just getting ridiculous. There is roughly a 95% chance that in any given 1337 battle that at least one player has a Tyranitar, and a 60% chance that both players have one. I'm going to be forthcoming and say we should open the discussion to the possibility of banning Tyranitar, regardless of whether or not this has been discussed in the pass. As it stands, practically every single 1337 match is in sand.

The nice thing about banning Tyranitar is that this does not destroy sand teams, as there are TWO fully evolved Pokemon with Sand stream, with Hippowdon more than capable of carrying its weight on a team (which is pretty heavy, I mean it is a hippo).

Alternatively, we could look into banning Excadrill, although I think this takes a little too much wind from sandstorm's sails. I think Tyranitar is a good way of ever so slightly clipping the Wings of sand teams.

I would appreciate it if this was given 7 days or so before being locked, so that we can give more time for the community to voice an opinion, even if that opinion is unanimous throughout the week. You guys are absolutely brilliant at your jobs, but I'd really like to hear a ton of opinions on the matter (even if they all concur!).

TL;DR A large majority of top players enroll Tyranitar as a pillar of their teams. Would replacing this Cornerstone Pokemon with Hippowdon serve to make the 1337 more diverse, while not completely crippling sand as a valid playstyle?

Edit: The reason I did not post this in the General Metagame Discussion is that I believe that as a community this issue needs its own independent discussion. This is a really big deal guys, we are the least diverse tier (outside of LC, of course. That tier is whack) in upper-level play. We have the highest 1337 per-tier percentages of any (non-LC) tier, with 5 of the top ten highest percent used pokemon out of all tiers being Dream World (does that make sense? basically we have the highest 1337 percentage numbers, and 5 of the top ten percentages are DW).
So yeah guys, this is a big deal and deserves its own thread.

Second Edit: I added a poll, guys! Polls are fun! :D

[King of Lucario]

I don't play DW tier but I feel that a Pokemon's overuse alone does not warrant a ban. Tyranitar should only be banned if it's both common AND excessively difficult to deal with/counter in combination with whatever it is paired with. All I'm gathering from this is that Tyranitar is stupidly common in DW matches, which alone isn't enough for a ban in my opinion.

I've voted no to T-Tar ban based on what you've said, but due to the things that sandstorm also brings with it (Excadrill, Landorus etc.) I feel sandstorm's status is worth addressing.

[V0x]

I don't think usage alone is ban-worthy, especially when you're talking about 1337 stats. Maybe Tyranitar is there because it's a /better/ Sand Stream user then Hippowdon, and that sand is simply a good strategy itself. Nothing about it stands out as inherently broken: it has no recovery, 4x Fighting weakness, little Speed, etc. I think it's sand raising TTar, not TTar raising sand.

[AJC]

t-tar is so common because it the best option for revenging choiced ST chandlure

aka the no.1 most used mon in DW OU overall.

it's no 3 in the 1337 numbers.

it's not t-tar that's the problem it's chandle being the Shadow Tag Nuke running around that is. t-tar usage being so high is just a side effect since you want chandle dead as soon as possible and t-tar is the best mon for that job.

look at the metagame as a whole first before making saying stuff like this.

[Tendie]

Originally Posted by Fat V0x

I don't think usage alone is ban-worthy, especially when you're talking about 1337 stats. Maybe Tyranitar is there because it's a /better/ Sand Stream user then Hippowdon, and that sand is simply a good strategy itself. Nothing about it stands out as inherently broken: it has no recovery, 4x Fighting weakness, little Speed, etc. I think it's sand raising TTar, not TTar raising sand.

I agree. The issue at the heart of it is sand. Sand being key in 95% of higher-level play is frankly staggering, and should raise some serious concerns. A usage rate that high is a balance issue, plain and simple. Banning Tyranitar is a possible method of restoring some balance, because although Tyranitar at first does not look like an overpowered pokemon, the fact is that Tyranitar is sandstorm, and Sandstorm is Tyranitar. Tyranitar is the pillar on which Sand teams sit atop to lord over opposition. Tyranitar is broken because it lifts every single one of its team mates to something greater than itself. Hippowdon does not do this job as well, but still allows Sandstorm a pillar upon which to sit, making it on par with the other weathers

The DW OU metagame is absurdly out of balance, and removing TTar would go great lengths to balance out the tier.

Originally Posted by Fat AJC

t-tar is so common because it the best option for revenging choiced ST chandlure

This is simply not true. If TTar's primary ability wasn't sand stream, Tyranitar would not be on nearly as many teams. while I agree that it does serve the function of demolishing chandelures, that is hardly the primary function of Tyranitar. Chandelure can be handled more than competently by teams lacking Tyranitar. No, the reason Tyranitar is used is because it has great stats and has sand stream. If you are suggesting a chandelure ban I doubt we would see significantly lower usage statistics for sand team Pokemon.

Originally Posted by Fat AJC

look at the metagame as a whole first before making saying stuff like this.

That was rude. I put thought into this. Tyranitar and Excadrill's usage is stupidly high, and it has a lot more to do with sand and all the benefits it brings than it has to do with Chandelure.
Edit: reason it was rude is because you made the faulty assumption I didn't look at the whole metagame first and thus implied I was not knowledgeable on the subject. I've been around the DW OU block.

[jrrrrrrr]

I've said this a lot, a pokemon being extremely common is not a reason to ban it, but it IS a reason to start investigating the metagame.

I think we can all agree on a few things:

- Tyranitar isn't broken (on its own), although it is very good
- Tyranitar supports Excadrill and Garchomp, two of the best offensive pokemon in the tier
- Tyranitar is the best check/counter to the most common pokemon in the tier (Chandelure), with or without Sand Stream

Speaking from personal experience, I think #2 is the most important reason why Tyranitar is seeing so much usage. Excadrill is a great mon in sand, and I will never make a team in DW without Garchomp on it (it works in all weathers). That's half a team for free without even thinking, which obviously makes it popular!

I'll make a more thought out post later, but the OP does bring up a valid point. Any good rain team should destroy a sand team, so why are Rain teams not as popular amongst high-rated players?

edit- actually come to think of it, there are a LOT of alts at the top of the leaderboards. This probably has something to do with it. Maybe if we lowered 1337 stats to 1200 stats we could get a better picture?

[Tendie]

Originally Posted by Fat jrrrrrrr

edit- actually come to think of it, there are a LOT of alts at the top of the leaderboards. This probably has something to do with it. Maybe if we lowered 1337 stats to 1200 stats we could get a better picture?

You know, I never thought of this. There are a shitton of alts up there (looking at you kidogo), and that may have something to do with it.

Looking at the polls it seems a Tyranitar ban is absolutely out of the question, and after reading some of these posts that makes some sense. There seems to be some debate though as to weather or not (get it? :D) we should start considering implementing some changes. Any ideas would be more than welcome!

I think jrrrrr's advice makes a lot of sense; we really aren't that big of a tier, guys (especially after the switch; where did you guys all go?).

[Tobes]

Going to do that supreme leader thing now where I say that a Tyranitar ban is not on the table. Ever. It itself is not broken and is therefore not eligible for a ban. Simple as that. Sand is being used a lot because it's easy to use. And that's not my problem. My problem is broken shit, and ONLY broken shit. Trying to lessen sand's impact on the meta for the sake of lessening sand's impact on the meta is not something we should be trying to do. There is no obligation to make weathers even with each other, and sand teams are not impossible to beat. It is perfectly possible to run a team without sand or Tyranitar and be successful. If anything should be examined it's Excadrill, and maybe Garchomp. They are the culprits of any alleged brokenness, and, if any evaluation is truly necessary, are the ones who should be examined, not sand in general.

Also "sample bias yada yada yada".

[White symphoni]

I think if Sand gets a blow by banning some of it's best abusers or getting banned partly itself,Rain teams might become an outbreak.In fact there's a decent number of Rain teams at the moment and hindering sand is likely to cause an too much use like current sand(Manaphy is such a beast,not to mention keldeo and Thundurus-I).

Also,partly banning sand or it's abusers is will destroy a huge part of what separates it from Standard OU.it is good as it is and it seems most people agrees with this.

But I must agree that so much sand is not good.One thing I suggest is that a Tournament can be organised .In the tournament sand will be allowed to use by a few selected people.That way some new succesful strategies for DW OU might come up.

[Tendie]

Originally Posted by Fat Tobes

Going to do that supreme leader thing now where I say that a Tyranitar ban is not on the table. Ever. It itself is not broken and is therefore not eligible for a ban. Simple as that. Sand is being used a lot because it's easy to use. And that's not my problem. My problem is broken shit, and ONLY broken shit. Trying to lessen sand's impact on the meta for the sake of lessening sand's impact on the meta is not something we should be trying to do. There is no obligation to make weathers even with each other, and sand teams are not impossible to beat. It is perfectly possible to run a team without sand or Tyranitar and be successful. If anything should be examined it's Excadrill, and maybe Garchomp. They are the culprits of any alleged brokenness, and, if any evaluation is truly necessary, are the ones who should be examined, not sand in general.

Also "sample bias yada yada yada".

Fair enough. It was a ghost of a chance that there was going to be a TTar ban. I doubt it will be an issue after DW merges with OU anyway; It's fairly unlikely OU will unban both, if either, chomp and exca. It's just food for thought, I suppose.

Anyway, I think the issue in the OP is pretty much decided. Feel free to lock this at any time.

As a side not, I thoroughly enjoyed the large amount of response this thread has gotten. It was good to get the input of the community!