Researching the Mighty Beast Gyarados (and Ditto now too)! (Peaked #2)

Hawkstar · May 24th, 2012, 9:20:16 PM

a.k.a. Team mostwanted sux

Research Week is a feature that pretty much every tier hosts in their respective forum, and as of two weeks ago, now the DW tier is no exception. The concept is to take one of three lesser used Pokemon and see why they aren't used as much, or why they are not used enough. This round, out of the three subjects, I felt Gyarados would be the easiest to use so I chose it over Mew and Hydreigon. Part of why Gyarados is not seen often is the ubiquity of sand teams. Excadrill, Tyranitar, Terrakion, Garchomp, and Rotom-W are not kind to Gyarados at all, so any team using it must have a way to deal with those Pokemon and other sand favorites. As such, a rain team was a natural fit for Gyarados, boosting its STAB attacks while taking the edge off of common sand sweepers. With a plan in mind, I set off, donning my lab coat to do some research on the mighty beast that is Gyarados. Here are my research notes:

Politoed (F) @ Chesto Berry
Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Scald
- Toxic
- Perish Song
- Rest

Politoed is the obvious stepping stone to any rain team. However, with the multitude of sets available to run, having the right set makes the difference between making Politoed a force to be reckoned with and having the same useless toad we had since G/S/C. This is my personal favorite set to run on Politoed. To me, Politoed is supposed to be a support player, and keeping it alive for as long as possible is the key to victory. With Rest and a Chesto Berry, I can restore Politoed to full health when it is on its last legs, giving it the edge against Tyranitar and any other hostile weather inducers. Scald is deceptively powerful with the rain boost, and with its ~~100%~~ 30% burn rate, Politoed can easily knock physical attackers out of contention. Toxic is for enemy bulky Waters, especially Jellicent and Vaporeon, that can come in and wall Gyarados. Perish Song stops Baton Pass teams cold, and helps me out against CM Reuniclus, whom my team can have some trouble with.

Gyarados (F) @ Choice Band
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Waterfall
- Ice Fang
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

The subject of Research Week #1, this is the Pokemon this team owes its existence to. When choosing a set, I at first just slapped on the Dragon Dance set. However, I then remembered CB Gyarados, whom I think was mentioned on a Smogcast or something, but wherever I heard of it, I then chose it instead. This set hits so hard off the bat that it makes up for the Speed the DD set has. Waterfall is the obvious STAB move, gaining massive power with STAB, Choice Band, and rain boosts bring its power up to a whopping 270 BP. Ice Fang hits Dragons such as Dragonite, Hydreigon, Garchomp, and the Lati twins for huge damage. Earthquake smashes grounded Steel-types, while hitting Amoonguss neutrally. This is important for when I'm facing a Fire-type such as Chandelure who may or may not switch to Amoonguss, possibly anticipating Ice Fang. Stone Edge is mostly filler, giving coverage against Flying-types (which hits them way harder than Ice Fang), Abomasnow, and other Gyarados. Unfortunately, this also gives Ditto a weapon to use against me, but it is so rare that I am not as concerned.

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Trait: Lightningrod
EVs: 192 HP / 64 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Roost
- Thunder

If I had to pick a team MVP, it would be this Pokemon right here. Zapdos is such a perfect fit for this team, discouraging Electric-type moves while also stalling out a surprisingly large number of Pokemon. SubToxic Zapdos is no stranger to the Pokemon scene, but in Dream World, Lightningrod gives it a much more legitimate niche than standard OU. I originally thought the Speed investment was a silly idea, but the ability to outspeed all but one common Water-type and blast them with a powerful Thunder makes it an excellent choice. Substitute allows me to smack around a ton of previously dangerous threats, such as Body Slam Jirachi, who can't break Zapdos's Subs with it, Breloom, Ferrothorn, Chandelure, non-Substitute Raikou, etc. Roost makes this set work by allowing me to heal off chip damage and Substitute recoil. Thunder is the obvious STAB move, OHKOing pretty much every Manaphy set 100% of the time.

Terrakion @ Air Balloon
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge

Excadrill check numero uno, Balloon Terrakion is so amazing in this metagame when you consider all the stuff it can now switch in on, such as Excadrill, Garchomp, and Scarf Landorus. Rock Polish and Swords Dance are a potent pair, and with the Balloon, I can set up a Rock Polish on Excadrill, then sweep the rest of their team without Chandelure, Genesect, and weakened Deoxys-S outspeeding me and stopping my sweep. Close Combat and Stone Edge together wreck every other hostile weather inducer besides Hippowdon, making him my best weather counter. Besides that, since the only two relevant Pokemon who resist Fighting/Rock (Toxicroak and Nidoking) are destroyed by Gyarados and Ditto respectively, the sheer power of its Swords Dance-boosted neutral coverage is usually an easy sweep...unless Stone Edge fails to hit.

Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP
Hardy Nature
- Transform

One of the posterboys of DW isn't quite as common as we all thought it would be. This RMT is the only one I've seen with it in a long time, and I don't see many top teams using it either. Nevertheless, this thing is such a boss, and is the team's glue. While the sheer power of Gyarados's CB-boosted moves helps to smash stall teams, this set absolutely wrecks offensive teams, especially those built around a boosting sweeper. A surprisingly large amount of Pokemon beat themselves, including Genesect, Terrakion, Excadrill, Thundurus, and a lot more. What's more, when a Pokemon such as Garchomp sets up, I simply take the boosts and initiate a counter sweep. it's EVs are set to HP Ice to deal with Thundurus, Zapdos, and Landorus that use it.

Ferrothorn (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SDef
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Leech Seed
- Stealth Rock
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball

Ferrothorn provides Stealth Rock and can stomach pretty much any Water-typed move in the game, as well as functioning really well on a rain team. While I usually use the max Special Defense set, I decided to try out the standard set, with mixed results. I like how much less I am taking from Outrages, but I also wish I took less from the Water-type moves Ferrothorn also has to take. Leech Seed is the obvious "recovery" move that Ferrothorn needs to function, as otherwise, Leftovers wouldn't be enough. Having both Gyro Ball and Power Whip gives Ferrothorn a lot more offensive presence than people think. For example, Ferrothorn survives Adamant Scarf Terrakion's Close Combat and OHKOes back with Gyro Ball, and it also survives Modest Specs Keldeo's Secret Sword without any hazards, allowing me to OHKO it with Power Whip and remove the biggest threat my team faces. Also, besides random Scarfers, Ditto can revenge kill pretty much anything, so Thunder Wave isn't as necessary.

Conclusion

So far, this team has worked really well, peaking at 1448 and #12. From my research, I can conclude that Gyarados is definitely a force to be reckoned with, as long as you can work around its weaknesses. The biggest threat to this team is Choice Specs Keldeo. It scores at least a 2HKO on every member of my team with Hydro Pump in the rain, while OHKOing Zapdos, preventing me from sacrificing it to roast it with Thunder. Ferrothorn can take any hit at absolutely full health and OHKO back, but it doesn't work if I switch into any of its attacks. Ditto can't snatch the Specs boost, and while I can 2HKO it with a faster Secret Sword, it OHKOes me starting at 75% or so and below, making that a shaky check as well. Thundurus can also give me problems, since it can paralyze Terrakion after a Rock Polish, Ditto, while hammering Zapdos with a really powerful HP Ice. Also, the lack of a spinner hurts, especially with the two Pokemon that are weak to Stealth Rock needing to do the most switching. Unfortunately, there are no spinners I can use that wouldn't disrupt my team's synergy, so I just have to deal with that.

With that, I publish my research into the public domain for others to replicate and improve upon!

Importable

Hawkstar · May 27th, 2012, 9:26:22 AM

24 hour bump

TheStarRapper · Jun 18th, 2012, 3:16:24 PM

An interesting thing i occasionally do with Ferrothorn is take all Evs out of hp and put them into Defense and Special Defense. I do realize that this is not the way to optimize bulk, but

Pros: Greatly increased leech seed recovery, less pain split shenanigans
Cons: is better when leech seed is the focus alongside protect

It's worth considering I think.

Gamester · Jun 20th, 2012, 6:40:52 PM

hmm cool stuff it's similar in concept to a rain team I had a while ago I definitely like the gyara baiting electric moves for zapdos that's really nice. I'd suggest rock gem terrakion because I'm not seeing any special benefit double dancing would give you. Congratulations on getting #2 !

Ditto is ditto but props on good usage of it I haven't seen it in a while. I'd also suggest a modifaction of politoed's ev's so opposing genesect only gets a +atk boost so you can safely wall it with zapdos. Also I think the amount of speed you're running is a touch excessive. maybe bring it down a touch?

tobi10 · Jul 27th, 2012, 7:02:28 PM

You have a pretty cool team, and congrats on #2. I suggest using Hidden Power Ice > Toxic on Zapdos to have an immediate way to deal damage to Thundurus and also you will not be forced out by Swords Dance Gliscor anymore (In fact, you might lure Gliscor and take it out for Terrakion.)
It is also good to have Electric + Ice coverage on Zapdos after he gets a Special Attack boost. Unless Toxic is really necessary you could try the change I suggested.

Good luck!

Gengan · Jul 27th, 2012, 7:44:35 PM

It's nice to see you branch off from LC and take over another tier for a while.

Your team is really good, the only thing I'd possibly recommend is Thunder > Stone Edge on Gyarados, which hits Flying-types WAY harder than Stone Edge, and since it never misses in the rain, it's much more dependable (plus the para chance is nice). And since ditto isn't really that common anyway, you wouldn't have to worry about it that much.

Oh, also, this website has some nicer (and animated) sprites. The white background on Zapdos is, meh. (Just a suggestion to make your RMT look a little bit cleaner)

Jun 18th, 2012, 3:16:24 PM	#3
TheStarRapper Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 179 Everybody gets one.	An interesting thing i occasionally do with Ferrothorn is take all Evs out of hp and put them into Defense and Special Defense. I do realize that this is not the way to optimize bulk, but Pros: Greatly increased leech seed recovery, less pain split shenanigans Cons: is better when leech seed is the focus alongside protect It's worth considering I think. __________________ Now an EMT for Los Angeles county. PM me for house calls. (Totally legit I swear.) PM me for an OU team rate!

Jul 27th, 2012, 7:02:28 PM	#5
tobi10 Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 421 It's legen.. wait for it.. dary!	You have a pretty cool team, and congrats on #2. I suggest using Hidden Power Ice > Toxic on Zapdos to have an immediate way to deal damage to Thundurus and also you will not be forced out by Swords Dance Gliscor anymore (In fact, you might lure Gliscor and take it out for Terrakion.) It is also good to have Electric + Ice coverage on Zapdos after he gets a Special Attack boost. Unless Toxic is really necessary you could try the change I suggested. Good luck! __________________ DP OU: 1st DP Ubers: 1st BW Ubers: 1st

Jul 27th, 2012, 7:44:35 PM	#6
Gengan Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 545 We bought boobs	It's nice to see you branch off from LC and take over another tier for a while. Your team is really good, the only thing I'd possibly recommend is Thunder > Stone Edge on Gyarados, which hits Flying-types WAY harder than Stone Edge, and since it never misses in the rain, it's much more dependable (plus the para chance is nice). And since ditto isn't really that common anyway, you wouldn't have to worry about it that much. Oh, also, this website has some nicer (and animated) sprites. The white background on Zapdos is, meh. (Just a suggestion to make your RMT look a little bit cleaner) __________________ Pokemon LP Center \| My Analysis \| Best Thread 2012 \| Feebas, the Mighty <Gengan> .qm Will you marry me NOW? <QMark> Gengan: Eww, you're a squishy human. Of course not!

May 24th, 2012, 9:20:16 PM	#1
Hawkstar Are you hanging by a thread or swinging from the rope? Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 627 Western Pennsylvania	Researching the Mighty Beast Gyarados (and Ditto now too)! (Peaked #2) a.k.a. Team mostwanted sux Research Week is a feature that pretty much every tier hosts in their respective forum, and as of two weeks ago, now the DW tier is no exception. The concept is to take one of three lesser used Pokemon and see why they aren't used as much, or why they are not used enough. This round, out of the three subjects, I felt Gyarados would be the easiest to use so I chose it over Mew and Hydreigon. Part of why Gyarados is not seen often is the ubiquity of sand teams. Excadrill, Tyranitar, Terrakion, Garchomp, and Rotom-W are not kind to Gyarados at all, so any team using it must have a way to deal with those Pokemon and other sand favorites. As such, a rain team was a natural fit for Gyarados, boosting its STAB attacks while taking the edge off of common sand sweepers. With a plan in mind, I set off, donning my lab coat to do some research on the mighty beast that is Gyarados. Here are my research notes: Politoed (F) @ Chesto Berry Trait: Drizzle EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk) - Scald - Toxic - Perish Song - Rest Politoed is the obvious stepping stone to any rain team. However, with the multitude of sets available to run, having the right set makes the difference between making Politoed a force to be reckoned with and having the same useless toad we had since G/S/C. This is my personal favorite set to run on Politoed. To me, Politoed is supposed to be a support player, and keeping it alive for as long as possible is the key to victory. With Rest and a Chesto Berry, I can restore Politoed to full health when it is on its last legs, giving it the edge against Tyranitar and any other hostile weather inducers. Scald is deceptively powerful with the rain boost, and with its ~~100%~~ 30% burn rate, Politoed can easily knock physical attackers out of contention. Toxic is for enemy bulky Waters, especially Jellicent and Vaporeon, that can come in and wall Gyarados. Perish Song stops Baton Pass teams cold, and helps me out against CM Reuniclus, whom my team can have some trouble with. Gyarados (F) @ Choice Band Trait: Intimidate EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk) - Waterfall - Ice Fang - Earthquake - Stone Edge The subject of Research Week #1, this is the Pokemon this team owes its existence to. When choosing a set, I at first just slapped on the Dragon Dance set. However, I then remembered CB Gyarados, whom I think was mentioned on a Smogcast or something, but wherever I heard of it, I then chose it instead. This set hits so hard off the bat that it makes up for the Speed the DD set has. Waterfall is the obvious STAB move, gaining massive power with STAB, Choice Band, and rain boosts bring its power up to a whopping 270 BP. Ice Fang hits Dragons such as Dragonite, Hydreigon, Garchomp, and the Lati twins for huge damage. Earthquake smashes grounded Steel-types, while hitting Amoonguss neutrally. This is important for when I'm facing a Fire-type such as Chandelure who may or may not switch to Amoonguss, possibly anticipating Ice Fang. Stone Edge is mostly filler, giving coverage against Flying-types (which hits them way harder than Ice Fang), Abomasnow, and other Gyarados. Unfortunately, this also gives Ditto a weapon to use against me, but it is so rare that I am not as concerned. Zapdos @ Leftovers Trait: Lightningrod EVs: 192 HP / 64 SAtk / 252 Spd Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Substitute - Toxic - Roost - Thunder If I had to pick a team MVP, it would be this Pokemon right here. Zapdos is such a perfect fit for this team, discouraging Electric-type moves while also stalling out a surprisingly large number of Pokemon. SubToxic Zapdos is no stranger to the Pokemon scene, but in Dream World, Lightningrod gives it a much more legitimate niche than standard OU. I originally thought the Speed investment was a silly idea, but the ability to outspeed all but one common Water-type and blast them with a powerful Thunder makes it an excellent choice. Substitute allows me to smack around a ton of previously dangerous threats, such as Body Slam Jirachi, who can't break Zapdos's Subs with it, Breloom, Ferrothorn, Chandelure, non-Substitute Raikou, etc. Roost makes this set work by allowing me to heal off chip damage and Substitute recoil. Thunder is the obvious STAB move, OHKOing pretty much every Manaphy set 100% of the time. Terrakion @ Air Balloon Trait: Justified EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk) - Rock Polish - Swords Dance - Close Combat - Stone Edge Excadrill check numero uno, Balloon Terrakion is so amazing in this metagame when you consider all the stuff it can now switch in on, such as Excadrill, Garchomp, and Scarf Landorus. Rock Polish and Swords Dance are a potent pair, and with the Balloon, I can set up a Rock Polish on Excadrill, then sweep the rest of their team without Chandelure, Genesect, and weakened Deoxys-S outspeeding me and stopping my sweep. Close Combat and Stone Edge together wreck every other hostile weather inducer besides Hippowdon, making him my best weather counter. Besides that, since the only two relevant Pokemon who resist Fighting/Rock (Toxicroak and Nidoking) are destroyed by Gyarados and Ditto respectively, the sheer power of its Swords Dance-boosted neutral coverage is usually an easy sweep...unless Stone Edge fails to hit. Ditto @ Choice Scarf Trait: Imposter EVs: 252 HP Hardy Nature - Transform One of the posterboys of DW isn't quite as common as we all thought it would be. This RMT is the only one I've seen with it in a long time, and I don't see many top teams using it either. Nevertheless, this thing is such a boss, and is the team's glue. While the sheer power of Gyarados's CB-boosted moves helps to smash stall teams, this set absolutely wrecks offensive teams, especially those built around a boosting sweeper. A surprisingly large amount of Pokemon beat themselves, including Genesect, Terrakion, Excadrill, Thundurus, and a lot more. What's more, when a Pokemon such as Garchomp sets up, I simply take the boosts and initiate a counter sweep. it's EVs are set to HP Ice to deal with Thundurus, Zapdos, and Landorus that use it. Ferrothorn (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Iron Barbs EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SDef Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd) - Leech Seed - Stealth Rock - Power Whip - Gyro Ball Ferrothorn provides Stealth Rock and can stomach pretty much any Water-typed move in the game, as well as functioning really well on a rain team. While I usually use the max Special Defense set, I decided to try out the standard set, with mixed results. I like how much less I am taking from Outrages, but I also wish I took less from the Water-type moves Ferrothorn also has to take. Leech Seed is the obvious "recovery" move that Ferrothorn needs to function, as otherwise, Leftovers wouldn't be enough. Having both Gyro Ball and Power Whip gives Ferrothorn a lot more offensive presence than people think. For example, Ferrothorn survives Adamant Scarf Terrakion's Close Combat and OHKOes back with Gyro Ball, and it also survives Modest Specs Keldeo's Secret Sword without any hazards, allowing me to OHKO it with Power Whip and remove the biggest threat my team faces. Also, besides random Scarfers, Ditto can revenge kill pretty much anything, so Thunder Wave isn't as necessary. Conclusion So far, this team has worked really well, peaking at 1448 and #12. From my research, I can conclude that Gyarados is definitely a force to be reckoned with, as long as you can work around its weaknesses. The biggest threat to this team is Choice Specs Keldeo. It scores at least a 2HKO on every member of my team with Hydro Pump in the rain, while OHKOing Zapdos, preventing me from sacrificing it to roast it with Thunder. Ferrothorn can take any hit at absolutely full health and OHKO back, but it doesn't work if I switch into any of its attacks. Ditto can't snatch the Specs boost, and while I can 2HKO it with a faster Secret Sword, it OHKOes me starting at 75% or so and below, making that a shaky check as well. Thundurus can also give me problems, since it can paralyze Terrakion after a Rock Polish, Ditto, while hammering Zapdos with a really powerful HP Ice. Also, the lack of a spinner hurts, especially with the two Pokemon that are weak to Stealth Rock needing to do the most switching. Unfortunately, there are no spinners I can use that wouldn't disrupt my team's synergy, so I just have to deal with that. With that, I publish my research into the public domain for others to replicate and improve upon! Importable Politoed (F) @ Chesto Berry Trait: Drizzle EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk) - Scald - Toxic - Perish Song - Rest Gyarados (F) @ Choice Band Trait: Intimidate EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk) - Waterfall - Ice Fang - Earthquake - Stone Edge Zapdos @ Leftovers Trait: Lightningrod EVs: 192 HP / 64 SAtk / 252 Spd Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Substitute - Toxic - Roost - Thunder Terrakion @ Air Balloon Trait: Justified EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk) - Rock Polish - Swords Dance - Close Combat - Stone Edge Ditto @ Choice Scarf Trait: Imposter EVs: 252 HP Hardy Nature - Transform Ferrothorn (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Iron Barbs EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SDef Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd) - Leech Seed - Stealth Rock - Power Whip - Gyro Ball __________________ Art thread! [22:11] Helias: FUCK YOU HAWKSTAR THAT'S NOT MY NAME Last edited by Hawkstar; Jun 7th, 2012 at 11:50:31 PM.

May 27th, 2012, 9:26:22 AM	#2
Hawkstar Are you hanging by a thread or swinging from the rope? Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 627 Western Pennsylvania	24 hour bump __________________ Art thread! [22:11] Helias: FUCK YOU HAWKSTAR THAT'S NOT MY NAME

Jun 20th, 2012, 6:40:52 PM	#4
Gamester Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 50	hmm cool stuff it's similar in concept to a rain team I had a while ago I definitely like the gyara baiting electric moves for zapdos that's really nice. I'd suggest rock gem terrakion because I'm not seeing any special benefit double dancing would give you. Congratulations on getting #2 ! Ditto is ditto but props on good usage of it I haven't seen it in a while. I'd also suggest a modifaction of politoed's ev's so opposing genesect only gets a +atk boost so you can safely wall it with zapdos. Also I think the amount of speed you're running is a touch excessive. maybe bring it down a touch?