CB Muk Update (QC 0/3)

lars · Jun 15th, 2012, 5:24:37 AM

I wrote the first RU Muk analysis and a good deal of it is still relevant in the current RU metagame, but woefully under competitive.

As such, ~~I believe that the intro paragraph, OO, Dream world, and most of the Tank/SubPunch/Curse sets and counters section can remain exactly the same.~~ a complete revamp will follow with only the Choice Band set receiving a full RU analysis. Other sets will have a decent mention in OO with reasons given to the nature of their non-competitiveness.

I talked to DittoCrow. He recommended that only the Choice Band set be up for QC/GP

Ready for QC checks

MUK

The Good
• Special Defense is pretty good (105 HP / 100 SpD)
• Sticky Hold is kind of nice
• 105 Atk for a bulky Poison isn’t bad
• Resistance to Grass and Bug
• Absorbs T. Spikes
• Movepool works (for what Muk should do anyway)
The Bad
• The rise of Drapion and Cofagrigus hurt
• Weakness to Psychic and Ground
• Horrible STAB
• Base 50 speed
• Can’t take hits as well on the physical side

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Gunk Shot
move 2: Focus Punch
move 3: Fire Punch
move 4: Shadow Sneak
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe

I'm probably the most common user of Muk and I always use the first suggestions listed here (Gunk, Focus and Fire Punch, S. Sneak). 95% of the time it's Gunk Shot and Shadow Sneak anyway.

[Comments]

• ~~Probably Muk’s best RU set~~ the only reason you use Muk in RU
• Muk can take a hit (hopefully a special one) and retaliate
• Gunk Shot really is powerful (pretty much a nuke) this power is the reason you use it over Poison Jab
• You can use a dry Focus Punch = heavy damage to common counters
Steelix (252/252 max) = 56.6% - 66.7%
Aggron (252/252 max) = OHKO
Kabutops (252/252 max) = OHKO
Magneton @ Eviolite (252/0) = OHKO
• Shadow Sneak does good damage to several frail sweepers, don't expect it to stop a SD Drapion though.
• calcs are listed below in posts 4 and 7 (as well as a few logs)

[AC]
•evs are pretty obvious for a tank, 4 spe is to outspeed the common 0 spe tangrowth.
• Excellent for coming in on Scarf Galvantula or similar
• Stench could be used over Sticky Hold, but the flinches will be very rare
• Fire Punch can be replaced by Thunder Punch for Omastar and Qwilfish or even Ice Punch for... Sandslash, but seriously just use Fire Punch
• Explosion can be used, but the common Muk counters are all either immune or resist it making it mostly useful just to get something in for free
• Payback might also be used, but Shadow Sneak has much better utility

[partners and counters]
• Tangrowth, Mandibuzz, Sigilyph are all good partners
• in terms of offense, accelgor, absol, lilligant are pretty good.

• counters are already listed in the current analysis, but Steelix, Aggron, Sandslash/Qwilfish depending on coverage, Bulky Ghosts with WoW. Steels should still be slightly wary of switching into a CB boosted Focus Punch.

[OTHER OPTIONS]
(first paragraph)
• mention of tank set changing CB to lefties, depending on the ev spread, either too weak or not enough bulk
•mention of SubPunch with Sub over Fire punch, outclassed as a SubPuncher in RU
•mention of Curse set which has a niche with Trick immunity, outclassed as a Curse user in RU, mostly due to lack of reliable instant recovery

(second paragraph)
• Muk has pretty bad 4MSS so he can’t really fit Toxic, Taunt, Sunny Day, or Rain Dance on his sets, but he has access to them
• He has Thunder, Thunderbolt, Thunder Punch, Focus Blast, Fire Blast, Dark Pulse, Sludge Wave, Façade, Shadow Ball, Rock Slide, and Explosion. (all have minimal usage except maybe Explosion on the CB set) He has Pain Split for a semi-reliable recovery.
• Has Acid Spray, Screech, Disable, and Memento (Memento could be useful in some cases)
• Can do a lol choice scarf to out speed max speed 97s (sigilyph) and under
• With Sleep Talk, Muk can make a very useful sleep absorber as he resists most sleeper's STABs and does good damage to them with his STAB
• As a poison type Muk gets to use Black Sludge, which is usually meant to deter Trick users that can't use it on Muk anyway. If item clause is in effect and you have another defensive poison type without Sticky Hold, Leftovers can be used exactly the same way

[COUNTERS]
• Steelix is biggest counter by far. Depending on the set, Aggron, Magnezone, Kabutops, Sandslash, Registeel, Bulky Ghosts with WoW. Also sleep users.
• Almost anything that is faster with powerful Ground or Psychic
• A lot of the listed counters (except Steelix and Bulky Ghosts really) can be beaten with specific moves or sets, conservative play until the set can be determined is recommended

[Dream World]
• Poison Touch is viable, but inflicts regular poison which might interfere with para or burn spreading. Muk's STAB attacks also spread regular poison anyway. Sticky Hold is certainly one of Muk's niche characteristics and should be considered first.

Reason for change:
Upon personal re-testing (and help from others) the other 3 sets were considered to be under competitive in RU, still minimally useful, but there are many better choices; therefore, they will be removed from the on-site analysis upon the QC/GP check of the CB set.

I personally don't think Ice Punch can be justified as a preferred move choice when it literally is for one thing now... I only listed common threats that resist poison for the coverage. Fire Punch > Thunder Punch at this point because Fire Punch hits the things that are immune to Poison and Thunder punch only hits the resists (which still take reasonable damage. 40% min to 252/4 Kabutops)

Honko · Jun 20th, 2012, 1:02:11 AM

Muk is not good. All his moves are either unreliable or piss weak, and he can't really switch in on much other than Grass-types. He's not bulky enough to counter RU's powerful Fighting-types even with the resistance. His STAB has less than 50% chance of hitting twice in a row, and his only decently powerful coverage move is Focus Punch (which hasn't been recommended on CB sets since ADV, for good reason).

I don't think Muk has a place in RU.

lars · Jun 20th, 2012, 2:14:06 AM

Honko, sorry to say this so bluntly, but I think you are wrong.

I have a ton of logs to prove Muk's niche in RU.

I'll admit a slight bias in Muk's favor, but to say, "Muk is not good." is making a clearly uninformed statement.

I'm curious as to what has changed your opinion from your seemingly favorable comments here in a metagame that has only become more "friendly" to this set?

**DittoCrow** · Jun 20th, 2012, 9:24:37 AM

@ Honko: Muk isn't that bad. It was a research week mon, and people used it with success. In fact, I think it was the best out of the four Pokemon. Muk's niche is its ability to come in on Grass-types such as Tangrowth and Sceptile, who are rising in usage, and KO whatever comes in with Gunk Shot. It's surprisingly bulky and can take a hit from Fighting-types and deal massive damage to them:

(no item) Adamant 252 Atk Gallade Close Combat: 32.12 - 37.92%
Gunk Shot vs 4/0 Gallade: 142.44 - 167.98%
(The set that most people are using atm doesn't include Zen Headbutt).
Still: Zen Headbutt: 358-420 (86.47 - 101.44%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

Guts-boosted 252 Atk Hariyama Close Combat: 46.61 - 55.07%
Gunk Shot vs 0/0 Hariyama: 48.95 - 57.57%

Gunk Shot vs 252 HP / 252 Def Poliwrath: 53.9 - 63.8%

Muk can reliably take on Primeape as well. I think it's bulky enough to handle these Pokemon, yet powerful enough to wreck a lot of things that come in. Assuming that you want to risk Gunk Shot hitting, it will hurt almost everything in RU bar Steel-types, and that's where Focus Punch comes in. I've seen this set in action, and it's not bad (when Gunk Shot hits :p). I admit that you do need some team support to remove Ghosts/Steels, but that's not hard. I don't think that it should not get an analysis because its main move has the same accuracy as Focus Blast. Maybe lars could supply some logs?

Honko · Jun 20th, 2012, 11:10:13 AM

@lars
My favorable comments in the old thread were more about your effort on your first analysis than it was about Muk being any good.

@DC
Guts Hariyama 2HKOes with Stone Edge and is faster. Even CC + Stone Edge will 2HKO almost all the time. Muk can't switch in.

Gallade wins if it has Psychic STAB, or if it's Swords Dance or Choice Band. Sub + Bulk Up will probably lose, but it has a decent chance of stalling out Gunk Shot's PP between Sub and the inevitable misses. Muk's definitely not a good switch-in until you know the set at least.

Medicham OHKOes easily with Psychic STAB, and CB HJK or ThunderPunch 2HKO as well. Muk's not switching into that.

LO Hitmonlee 2HKOes.

Muk is a good switch-in to Hitmonchan (but only once, since LO elemental punch 3HKOes) and Primeape, but that's it for Fighting-types. Other than that the only things Muk can switch into are Grass-types (assuming Tangrowth/Lilligant have already used Sleep Powder on something else and Sceptile isn't Swords Dance...).

I also don't agree that the metagame has become more friendly for Muk. Claydol and Gligar are gone, but Sandslash has mostly taken those spots and beats Muk easier than either of them ever did. Tangrowth has gained popularity, but so has Steelix. Bulky Ghost-types (mostly Cofagrigus, but also Dusknoir for some reason) are up. Drapion is way up. Hitmonchan, Primeape, and weak versions of Gallade are all down. It's only gotten harder for Muk to find chances to switch in, and it still has plenty of solid counters.

Finally, I actually used Muk yesterday and didn't like it at all. Neither did Oglemi.

alexwolf · Jun 20th, 2012, 11:23:30 AM

Even if it's not very good, this doesn't mean it doesn't deserve an analysis right? For a poke to not get an analysis, it has to be either unusable or strongly outclassed, and Muk is neither of those 2. And since the analysis already exists, why not just let lars update it?

lars · Jun 20th, 2012, 12:54:58 PM

For reference, Wormadam has a RU analysis and got a grand total of... 6 uses in May.

Muk had 322 (1.7%) uses. (I am fully aware that there was a RW)

Thank you for some damage calcs D_C; here are a couple more that I've come across in battles

Timid Moltres in the Sun! Fire Blast vs (252/0) CB Muk = 81-96%
Muk's Gunk Shot vs the same Moltres = 94-111%

CM Uxie (+0) Psychic vs (252/0) Muk = 46 - 55%
CB Muk Shadow Sneak vs (96/0) Uxie = 31 - 37%

Other interesting calcs

252Atk Choice Band Muk (+Atk) Shadow Sneak vs 4HP/0Def Hitmonchan: 30% - 36% (75 - 89 HP).
252Atk Choice Band Muk (+Atk) Shadow Sneak vs 4HP/0Def Hitmonlee: 42% - 50% (103 - 122 HP).
252Atk Choice Band Muk (+Atk) Shadow Sneak vs 4HP/0Def Gallade: 63% - 74% (176 - 208 HP).
252Atk Choice Band Muk (+Atk) Shadow Sneak vs 4HP/0Def Rotom: 63% - 75% (154 - 182 HP).
252Atk Choice Band Muk (+Atk) Shadow Sneak vs 4HP/0Def Sigilyph: 52% - 62% (150 - 178 HP).

in other words, don't Gunk Shot offensive Gallade, just destroy it with your "piss weak" 40 bp priority and

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Honko

LO Hitmonlee 2HKOes.

1 v 1 with Good damage rolls, Muk gets out at 40ish% hp, low damage rolls, both die, since Muk also 2HKOs with Shadow Sneak

Gunk Shot is pretty self-explanatory: if they don't resist poison, they probably just got OHKOed

Steelix (252/252+) takes 56.6–66.7% and standard defensive Aggron, Magneton, and Kabutops are all OHKOed by Focus Punch

Fire Punch is just coverage and hits what it has to. Lilligant, Ferroseed, etc, OHKOed

Logs

Muk Rampage

...

Muk holding his own and doing what I needed

...

Average battle

...

Some good and some bad

...

This represents a good cross section of play.

Honko · Jun 21st, 2012, 11:41:06 AM

I don't have time for a long reply atm, I'll expand later if I need to. Your calcs don't show Muk being able to switch into anything (other than Chan, Ape, and Grass-types after sleep clause). If you're using a slow attacker with a poor movepool, it better be able to switch in and then take a second hit without dying so it can launch an attack. If it can't, you're better off using something faster that doesn't need to take 2 hits before it can attack every time. Like Entei.

Whether the rest QC agrees with me on this set or not, Muk's entire analysis definitely needs to go through QC again, because the other sets are even worse than CB and I know for a fact I'm not the only one who doubts those at least. Also the overview seems out of touch by mentioning Weezing as a relevant mon in the first sentence, and the counters are missing bulky Ghosts.

BTW, I appreciate that you're making solid arguments with calcs and logs. Even if I don't agree with you about Muk, I really like the effort you put into your analyses.

lars · Jun 21st, 2012, 2:26:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Honko

Whether the rest QC agrees with me on this set or not, Muk's entire analysis definitely needs to go through QC again, because the other sets are even worse than CB and I know for a fact I'm not the only one who doubts those at least.

In fact, I quite agree with you here, if I was put on the spot, it would be of my personal opinion that the Curse and SubPunch sets do not need a RU analysis and the Tank set is really only if you desperately need a special tank that is immune to toxic and trick. (The biggest issue is either a lack of bulk or a lack of power depending on the EV spread, and after a good deal of initial testing, I wasn't able to find a happy medium.)

Silent Verse is currently trying to find a better EV spread for the Tank set.

Silent Verse and I (as well as others) are convinced that the Curse set is not worthy of a RU analysis after a good deal of re-testing.

We are uncertain as of now on the SubPunch set, but I'm not optimistic of the re-test results.

Let's just say, there is a reason I don't use any of those 3 sets on my competitive teams.

I have information/logs on the other sets (if anyone would like to see them) and I think it is of general community opinion that the CB set deserves an analysis and it's really the only set I have the experience with to honestly fight for.

Texas Cloverleaf · Jun 21st, 2012, 11:42:59 PM

Several QC members have spoken on irc and we agree that Muk should be revamped entirely, with only the CB set as a full set analysis.

lars · Jun 22nd, 2012, 2:01:50 AM

I can't disagree so OP has been edited accordingly.

I've decided the 4 moves listed are the only ones worth using from plenty of experience. Personally I don't think anything else is even worth a slash, but I'm open to other thoughts. Everything else is [AC] with a strong mention of ThunderPunch for Omastar. Gunk Shot>Poison Jab will be mentioned in the comments due to power reasons. Dry Focus Punch is taboo, but its only useful on the switch anyway. And cause Brick Break is for sissies.

Still ready for QC, lol, didn't expect quite this level of update work going in, but I guess that can happen.

**DittoCrow** · Jul 2nd, 2012, 11:17:15 AM

Just putting this here for now, will add later.

[Overview]

Add that it resist Fighting-type moves
Don't say "the rise of Drapion.." just say that Poison-types are common (Nidoqueen is now RU) Lack of Earthquake hurts
Can't come in on Fighting-types, gets 2HKOed by Hariyama etc. calcs are above

[SET COMMENTS]

Explain Fire Punch and why it is better than the other Punches

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

Mention Manectric instead of Galvantula
Poison Jab
Teammates: Spiritomb to trap Ghost-types, cripple Steelix, Sandslash, etc. with Will-O-Wisp

[Other Options]

Be sure to mention that it shouldn't be using Taunt due to its base 50 Speed

[Checks and Counters]

Get rid of Registeel, it's UU
Nidoqueen :p

[Unreleased]

Omit this section, it's released

Yea just some initial thoughts, I need to test it more in BW2 and hear other QC member's inputs.

lars · Jul 12th, 2012, 4:50:42 AM

Yep, not really sure how Registeel ever made it on there... I've been meaning Regirock in my head the whole time >.<

Anywho, I'm not sure how Muk will fit into the new RU BW2 meta... I'm hesitant to say he will be worse because it depends on how popular Nidoqueen and Escaliver become along with some other things (like Amoonguss, who Muk finds harder to break than Tangrowth)

I've been less active lately but I'll probably be back on more after a little while. Been kind of busy and have a family vacation coming up. I'm not too worried and I would rather have the testing done in a stable meta after a couple weeks.

Muk isn't high priority either way.

Honestly, it would probably be best to see July's RU usage stats do calcs, and try it out with a listed set. (generally because of the whole Ice Punch/Fire Punch issue especially if Nidoqueen usage is super high)

Also if T. spikes usage is way up from Nidoqueen, a tank set might have a slight chance to be viable again (emphasis on slight)

just my thoughts

Lee · Jul 13th, 2012, 8:05:30 AM

i realise i'm late but

Quote:

Gunk Shot vs 0/0 Hariyama: 48.95 - 57.57%

I'm getting 97.67% - 115.12%

**DittoCrow** · Jul 28th, 2012, 8:24:08 PM

QC Rejected 1/3

Sucks in this meta with Escavalier and Nidoqueen and is outclassed by a ton of stuff.

Sorry lars :(

Honko · Jul 28th, 2012, 8:25:02 PM

QC Rejected 2/3

SilentVerse · Jul 29th, 2012, 12:07:42 AM

QC Rejected 3/3

Yeah, Muk just isn't good in the current metagame :(.

Omi Edit: you nigs

qc rejected 4/3

Jun 15th, 2012, 5:24:37 AM	#1
lars Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 265	CB Muk Update (QC 0/3) I wrote the first RU Muk analysis and a good deal of it is still relevant in the current RU metagame, but woefully under competitive. As such, ~~I believe that the intro paragraph, OO, Dream world, and most of the Tank/SubPunch/Curse sets and counters section can remain exactly the same.~~ a complete revamp will follow with only the Choice Band set receiving a full RU analysis. Other sets will have a decent mention in OO with reasons given to the nature of their non-competitiveness. I talked to DittoCrow. He recommended that only the Choice Band set be up for QC/GP Ready for QC checks MUK The Good • Special Defense is pretty good (105 HP / 100 SpD) • Sticky Hold is kind of nice • 105 Atk for a bulky Poison isn’t bad • Resistance to Grass and Bug • Absorbs T. Spikes • Movepool works (for what Muk should do anyway) The Bad • The rise of Drapion and Cofagrigus hurt • Weakness to Psychic and Ground • Horrible STAB • Base 50 speed • Can’t take hits as well on the physical side [SET] name: Choice Band move 1: Gunk Shot move 2: Focus Punch move 3: Fire Punch move 4: Shadow Sneak item: Choice Band nature: Adamant evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe I'm probably the most common user of Muk and I always use the first suggestions listed here (Gunk, Focus and Fire Punch, S. Sneak). 95% of the time it's Gunk Shot and Shadow Sneak anyway. [Comments] • ~~Probably Muk’s best RU set~~ the only reason you use Muk in RU • Muk can take a hit (hopefully a special one) and retaliate • Gunk Shot really is powerful (pretty much a nuke) this power is the reason you use it over Poison Jab • You can use a dry Focus Punch = heavy damage to common counters Steelix (252/252 max) = 56.6% - 66.7% Aggron (252/252 max) = OHKO Kabutops (252/252 max) = OHKO Magneton @ Eviolite (252/0) = OHKO • Shadow Sneak does good damage to several frail sweepers, don't expect it to stop a SD Drapion though. • calcs are listed below in posts 4 and 7 (as well as a few logs) [AC] •evs are pretty obvious for a tank, 4 spe is to outspeed the common 0 spe tangrowth. • Excellent for coming in on Scarf Galvantula or similar • Stench could be used over Sticky Hold, but the flinches will be very rare • Fire Punch can be replaced by Thunder Punch for Omastar and Qwilfish or even Ice Punch for... Sandslash, but seriously just use Fire Punch • Explosion can be used, but the common Muk counters are all either immune or resist it making it mostly useful just to get something in for free • Payback might also be used, but Shadow Sneak has much better utility [partners and counters] • Tangrowth, Mandibuzz, Sigilyph are all good partners • in terms of offense, accelgor, absol, lilligant are pretty good. • counters are already listed in the current analysis, but Steelix, Aggron, Sandslash/Qwilfish depending on coverage, Bulky Ghosts with WoW. Steels should still be slightly wary of switching into a CB boosted Focus Punch. [OTHER OPTIONS] (first paragraph) • mention of tank set changing CB to lefties, depending on the ev spread, either too weak or not enough bulk •mention of SubPunch with Sub over Fire punch, outclassed as a SubPuncher in RU •mention of Curse set which has a niche with Trick immunity, outclassed as a Curse user in RU, mostly due to lack of reliable instant recovery (second paragraph) • Muk has pretty bad 4MSS so he can’t really fit Toxic, Taunt, Sunny Day, or Rain Dance on his sets, but he has access to them • He has Thunder, Thunderbolt, Thunder Punch, Focus Blast, Fire Blast, Dark Pulse, Sludge Wave, Façade, Shadow Ball, Rock Slide, and Explosion. (all have minimal usage except maybe Explosion on the CB set) He has Pain Split for a semi-reliable recovery. • Has Acid Spray, Screech, Disable, and Memento (Memento could be useful in some cases) • Can do a lol choice scarf to out speed max speed 97s (sigilyph) and under • With Sleep Talk, Muk can make a very useful sleep absorber as he resists most sleeper's STABs and does good damage to them with his STAB • As a poison type Muk gets to use Black Sludge, which is usually meant to deter Trick users that can't use it on Muk anyway. If item clause is in effect and you have another defensive poison type without Sticky Hold, Leftovers can be used exactly the same way [COUNTERS] • Steelix is biggest counter by far. Depending on the set, Aggron, Magnezone, Kabutops, Sandslash, Registeel, Bulky Ghosts with WoW. Also sleep users. • Almost anything that is faster with powerful Ground or Psychic • A lot of the listed counters (except Steelix and Bulky Ghosts really) can be beaten with specific moves or sets, conservative play until the set can be determined is recommended [Dream World] • Poison Touch is viable, but inflicts regular poison which might interfere with para or burn spreading. Muk's STAB attacks also spread regular poison anyway. Sticky Hold is certainly one of Muk's niche characteristics and should be considered first. Reason for change: Upon personal re-testing (and help from others) the other 3 sets were considered to be under competitive in RU, still minimally useful, but there are many better choices; therefore, they will be removed from the on-site analysis upon the QC/GP check of the CB set. I personally don't think Ice Punch can be justified as a preferred move choice when it literally is for one thing now... I only listed common threats that resist poison for the coverage. Fire Punch > Thunder Punch at this point because Fire Punch hits the things that are immune to Poison and Thunder punch only hits the resists (which still take reasonable damage. 40% min to 252/4 Kabutops) __________________ lars: scolipede is such an under rated lead DiscoLord: it eats cyanide and shits fucking acid ---------------------------------------------------- O.o <--- that is all I have to say Last edited by lars; Jun 22nd, 2012 at 2:04:20 AM.

Jun 20th, 2012, 1:02:11 AM	#2
Honko pronounced "Honko" Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,022	Muk is not good. All his moves are either unreliable or piss weak, and he can't really switch in on much other than Grass-types. He's not bulky enough to counter RU's powerful Fighting-types even with the resistance. His STAB has less than 50% chance of hitting twice in a row, and his only decently powerful coverage move is Focus Punch (which hasn't been recommended on CB sets since ADV, for good reason). I don't think Muk has a place in RU. __________________

Jun 20th, 2012, 2:14:06 AM	#3
lars Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 265	Honko, sorry to say this so bluntly, but I think you are wrong. I have a ton of logs to prove Muk's niche in RU. I'll admit a slight bias in Muk's favor, but to say, "Muk is not good." is making a clearly uninformed statement. I'm curious as to what has changed your opinion from your seemingly favorable comments here in a metagame that has only become more "friendly" to this set? __________________ lars: scolipede is such an under rated lead DiscoLord: it eats cyanide and shits fucking acid ---------------------------------------------------- O.o <--- that is all I have to say Last edited by lars; Jun 20th, 2012 at 2:31:41 AM.

Jun 20th, 2012, 11:10:13 AM	#5
Honko pronounced "Honko" Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,022	@lars My favorable comments in the old thread were more about your effort on your first analysis than it was about Muk being any good. @DC Guts Hariyama 2HKOes with Stone Edge and is faster. Even CC + Stone Edge will 2HKO almost all the time. Muk can't switch in. Gallade wins if it has Psychic STAB, or if it's Swords Dance or Choice Band. Sub + Bulk Up will probably lose, but it has a decent chance of stalling out Gunk Shot's PP between Sub and the inevitable misses. Muk's definitely not a good switch-in until you know the set at least. Medicham OHKOes easily with Psychic STAB, and CB HJK or ThunderPunch 2HKO as well. Muk's not switching into that. LO Hitmonlee 2HKOes. Muk is a good switch-in to Hitmonchan (but only once, since LO elemental punch 3HKOes) and Primeape, but that's it for Fighting-types. Other than that the only things Muk can switch into are Grass-types (assuming Tangrowth/Lilligant have already used Sleep Powder on something else and Sceptile isn't Swords Dance...). I also don't agree that the metagame has become more friendly for Muk. Claydol and Gligar are gone, but Sandslash has mostly taken those spots and beats Muk easier than either of them ever did. Tangrowth has gained popularity, but so has Steelix. Bulky Ghost-types (mostly Cofagrigus, but also Dusknoir for some reason) are up. Drapion is way up. Hitmonchan, Primeape, and weak versions of Gallade are all down. It's only gotten harder for Muk to find chances to switch in, and it still has plenty of solid counters. Finally, I actually used Muk yesterday and didn't like it at all. Neither did Oglemi. __________________

Jun 20th, 2012, 11:23:30 AM	#6
alexwolf King of Conquerors Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,620 Greece	Even if it's not very good, this doesn't mean it doesn't deserve an analysis right? For a poke to not get an analysis, it has to be either unusable or strongly outclassed, and Muk is neither of those 2. And since the analysis already exists, why not just let lars update it? __________________ Part of the OU QC team, message me for a check!

Jun 20th, 2012, 9:24:37 AM	#4
DittoCrow Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,138 Mentor	@ Honko: Muk isn't that bad. It was a research week mon, and people used it with success. In fact, I think it was the best out of the four Pokemon. Muk's niche is its ability to come in on Grass-types such as Tangrowth and Sceptile, who are rising in usage, and KO whatever comes in with Gunk Shot. It's surprisingly bulky and can take a hit from Fighting-types and deal massive damage to them: (no item) Adamant 252 Atk Gallade Close Combat: 32.12 - 37.92% Gunk Shot vs 4/0 Gallade: 142.44 - 167.98% (The set that most people are using atm doesn't include Zen Headbutt). Still: Zen Headbutt: 358-420 (86.47 - 101.44%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO Guts-boosted 252 Atk Hariyama Close Combat: 46.61 - 55.07% Gunk Shot vs 0/0 Hariyama: 48.95 - 57.57% Gunk Shot vs 252 HP / 252 Def Poliwrath: 53.9 - 63.8% Muk can reliably take on Primeape as well. I think it's bulky enough to handle these Pokemon, yet powerful enough to wreck a lot of things that come in. Assuming that you want to risk Gunk Shot hitting, it will hurt almost everything in RU bar Steel-types, and that's where Focus Punch comes in. I've seen this set in action, and it's not bad (when Gunk Shot hits :p). I admit that you do need some team support to remove Ghosts/Steels, but that's not hard. I don't think that it should not get an analysis because its main move has the same accuracy as Focus Blast. Maybe lars could supply some logs?

Jun 21st, 2012, 11:41:06 AM	#8
Honko pronounced "Honko" Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,022	I don't have time for a long reply atm, I'll expand later if I need to. Your calcs don't show Muk being able to switch into anything (other than Chan, Ape, and Grass-types after sleep clause). If you're using a slow attacker with a poor movepool, it better be able to switch in and then take a second hit without dying so it can launch an attack. If it can't, you're better off using something faster that doesn't need to take 2 hits before it can attack every time. Like Entei. Whether the rest QC agrees with me on this set or not, Muk's entire analysis definitely needs to go through QC again, because the other sets are even worse than CB and I know for a fact I'm not the only one who doubts those at least. Also the overview seems out of touch by mentioning Weezing as a relevant mon in the first sentence, and the counters are missing bulky Ghosts. BTW, I appreciate that you're making solid arguments with calcs and logs. Even if I don't agree with you about Muk, I really like the effort you put into your analyses. __________________

Jun 21st, 2012, 11:42:59 PM	#10
Texas Cloverleaf meh Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,340 Ottawa	Several QC members have spoken on irc and we agree that Muk should be revamped entirely, with only the CB set as a full set analysis. __________________ C&C/Smog work

Jun 22nd, 2012, 2:01:50 AM	#11
lars Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 265	I can't disagree so OP has been edited accordingly. I've decided the 4 moves listed are the only ones worth using from plenty of experience. Personally I don't think anything else is even worth a slash, but I'm open to other thoughts. Everything else is [AC] with a strong mention of ThunderPunch for Omastar. Gunk Shot>Poison Jab will be mentioned in the comments due to power reasons. Dry Focus Punch is taboo, but its only useful on the switch anyway. And cause Brick Break is for sissies. Still ready for QC, lol, didn't expect quite this level of update work going in, but I guess that can happen. __________________ lars: scolipede is such an under rated lead DiscoLord: it eats cyanide and shits fucking acid ---------------------------------------------------- O.o <--- that is all I have to say

Jul 2nd, 2012, 11:17:15 AM	#12
DittoCrow Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,138 Mentor	Just putting this here for now, will add later. [Overview] Add that it resist Fighting-type moves Don't say "the rise of Drapion.." just say that Poison-types are common (Nidoqueen is now RU) Lack of Earthquake hurts Can't come in on Fighting-types, gets 2HKOed by Hariyama etc. calcs are above [SET COMMENTS] Explain Fire Punch and why it is better than the other Punches [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS] Mention Manectric instead of Galvantula Poison Jab Teammates: Spiritomb to trap Ghost-types, cripple Steelix, Sandslash, etc. with Will-O-Wisp [Other Options] Be sure to mention that it shouldn't be using Taunt due to its base 50 Speed [Checks and Counters] Get rid of Registeel, it's UU Nidoqueen :p [Unreleased] Omit this section, it's released Yea just some initial thoughts, I need to test it more in BW2 and hear other QC member's inputs. __________________

Jul 12th, 2012, 4:50:42 AM	#13
lars Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 265	Yep, not really sure how Registeel ever made it on there... I've been meaning Regirock in my head the whole time >.< Anywho, I'm not sure how Muk will fit into the new RU BW2 meta... I'm hesitant to say he will be worse because it depends on how popular Nidoqueen and Escaliver become along with some other things (like Amoonguss, who Muk finds harder to break than Tangrowth) I've been less active lately but I'll probably be back on more after a little while. Been kind of busy and have a family vacation coming up. I'm not too worried and I would rather have the testing done in a stable meta after a couple weeks. Muk isn't high priority either way. Honestly, it would probably be best to see July's RU usage stats do calcs, and try it out with a listed set. (generally because of the whole Ice Punch/Fire Punch issue especially if Nidoqueen usage is super high) Also if T. spikes usage is way up from Nidoqueen, a tank set might have a slight chance to be viable again (emphasis on slight) just my thoughts __________________ lars: scolipede is such an under rated lead DiscoLord: it eats cyanide and shits fucking acid ---------------------------------------------------- O.o <--- that is all I have to say

Jul 28th, 2012, 8:24:08 PM	#15
DittoCrow Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,138 Mentor	QC Rejected 1/3 Sucks in this meta with Escavalier and Nidoqueen and is outclassed by a ton of stuff. Sorry lars :( __________________

Jul 28th, 2012, 8:25:02 PM	#16
Honko pronounced "Honko" Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,022	QC Rejected 2/3 __________________

Jul 29th, 2012, 12:07:42 AM	#17
SilentVerse Into the New World Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 646	QC Rejected 3/3 Yeah, Muk just isn't good in the current metagame :(. Omi Edit: you nigs qc rejected 4/3 Last edited by Omicron; Jul 29th, 2012 at 1:03:54 AM.