Pokemon RBY In-game Tiers - Mark II

[TM13IceBeam]

it's a problem if you had to pick between "average healing move with lots of competition" or "shitty charge-up move" as your main STAB.

slowpoke got surf, exeggutor doesn't have a 95 BP STAB move readily available. i don't think it should even be reconsidered

[Naix]

Also, Slowpoke can potentially be caught as high as a level 39 Slowbro, while Exeggcute has to settle with level 27 at most. Slowbro also has access to Amnesia, which greatly helps it against opponents such as Lorelei.

On a different note, I'm planning on playing through Blue with a similar intention as my previous playthrough: fixing/beefing up entries that could greatly use it. The Pokemon on my list so far are Paras, Krabby, Moltres, and either Spearow or Farfetch'd. If there are any entries that you think could use fixing or seem short, feel free to suggest it!

[Hemp Man]

Well I wasn't trying to say Exeggcute is better, but I was thinking it could be reconsidered. And also it may not have Surf available, but it does have Psychic straight away which is 95 BP STAB.

Edit: Although I guess it should be mentioned the best time to have a Grass type is right before Misty, so Exeggcute is a bit too late to the party.

[rocky505]

Psychic is a 90 BP move.

[Hemp Man]

Oh wow I never knew that, well its only a 5 point difference.

And Naix I think Mekkah already used Farfethd in a play (I could be wrong though, but I think he told me once he used it), so you should probably do Spearow.

[Garud]

Originally Posted by Fat Hemp Man

Well I wasn't trying to say Exeggcute is better, but I was thinking it could be reconsidered. And also it may not have Surf available, but it does have Psychic straight away which is 95 BP STAB.

Edit: Although I guess it should be mentioned the best time to have a Grass type is right before Misty, so Exeggcute is a bit too late to the party.

To be fair, Exeggcute comes as a Psychic-type right around the time you fight Koga. So it's not really too late by any stretch. It's mammoth special allows it to blow through Koga, and then you can grind it against the swimmers. At worst, you can catch it and then go and fight the Rockets in Silph/Game Corner to grind up pre-Koga.

[NoUserName]

Originally Posted by Fat Progeusz

Differnce is, only one STAB of Exeggutor is good. Grass type moves were terrible until Gen IV happened. Grass/Psychic is also a lot worse than Water/Psychic defensively. I agree it could be tested again though.

Resisting water, electric and ground is far from useless. Mega Drain, while very weak it is useful for a pseudo-recovery against weak to grass mons.


The main problem with Exeggcute/tor is its availability and slowliness, specially when it happens that its usefulness is very limited. And shadow movepool out of TM(only Stun Spore is useful, but waiting until lv 32 as Exeggcute to get it...) At least Exeggutor learn Stomp which is useful against Sabrina without spending the TM and seems funny defeating Sabrina which a Psychic resistor which has the highest physical attack out of Mewtwo and Mew.

When reaching Fuchsia, there is not much to beat against. Koga is beatable with X Speed or in Yellow however his Venomoth has a weak Leech Life and Giovanni, easy anyways.
Saffron Rockets and Sabrina(even with Stomplol) are free EXP.
In E4, Bruno smashed by X Speed Psychic as well Agatha, but Agatha is so annoying because Confuse Ray and Hypnosis hax.

After that, it sounds not a bad pokemon after all, but outclassed by a lot of mons when talking about an efficent run. Also it has a slow experience curve.



Edit: Grinding Exegg against Casino Rockets is not an option, since the PokeFlute is required to reach Fuchsia, unless using PokeDoll trick to scare Marowak's ghost.

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat NoUserName

Resisting water, electric and ground is far from useless. Mega Drain, while very weak it is useful for a pseudo-recovery against weak to grass mons.


The main problem with Exeggcute/tor is its availability and slowliness, specially when it happens that its usefulness is very limited. And shadow movepool out of TM(only Stun Spore is useful, but waiting until lv 32 as Exeggcute to get it...) At least Exeggutor learn Stomp which is useful against Sabrina without spending the TM and seems funny defeating Sabrina which a Psychic resistor which has the highest physical attack out of Mewtwo and Mew.

When reaching Fuchsia, there is not much to beat against. Koga is beatable with X Speed or in Yellow however his Venomoth has a weak Leech Life and Giovanni, easy anyways.
Saffron Rockets and Sabrina(even with Stomplol) are free EXP.
In E4, Bruno smashed by X Speed Psychic as well Agatha, but Agatha is so annoying because Confuse Ray and Hypnosis hax.

After that, it sounds not a bad pokemon after all, but outclassed by a lot of mons when talking about an efficent run. Also it has a slow experience curve.



Edit: Grinding Exegg against Casino Rockets is not an option, since the PokeFlute is required to reach Fuchsia, unless using PokeDoll trick to scare Marowak's ghost.

Exeggcute also seems to be really tough to nab in the Safari Zone thanks to it having that whole "Chansey Syndrome" (balls miss, wut?)

[Hemp Man]

Dude as someone who completed the RBY PokeDex without cheating, Exeggcute is not as hard as Chansey to catch.

[NoUserName]

Also it's pretty common, it should not take too much time. I have played a lot of times RBY and I have never noticed Exegg to be difficult to get.

Talking about Chansey, it is a pain catching at Safari Zone in Red/Blue, I cheated after taking a long time catching it. Very rare and runs quickly.

[Hemp Man]

I just used the Cinnabair Island glitch to get Chansey, and I think in Yellow I caught it at Mewtwo's Dungeon.

[NoUserName]

Originally Posted by Fat Hemp Man

I just used the Cinnabair Island glitch to get Chansey, and I think in Yellow I caught it at Mewtwo's Dungeon.

I did the same. Yes, but in the Dungeon is impossible to use it to finish the main story.

In both RB and Yellow it is available at Safari Zone and Mewtwo's Dungeon.

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat Hemp Man

Dude as someone who completed the RBY PokeDex without cheating, Exeggcute is not as hard as Chansey to catch.

I didn't say that. I said that it had Chansey syndrome. Chansey is stupid hard to catch, while Exeggcute is annoying to catch because "lol your ball missed" bullshit. Why is Red, who can hit a Pokemon the size of a flea with a Poke Ball without ever missing outside the Safari Zone, suddenly missing against things larger than Butterfree?

Chansey Syndrome = "lulz, your ball missed"

[Zowayix]

In RBY, the ball missing is an exact equivalent of the ball shaking zero times in future games. Notice that the Poke Ball never shakes zero times in RBY, it either shakes 1-3 times or misses.

The ball will almost always miss if the chances of you catching the Pokemon are ~10% or lower. It just happens more often in the Safari Zone because you can't lower a Pokemon's health, thus automatically reducing its regular catch rate to one-third. Try throwing a regular Poke Ball against any full health Pokemon with a catch rate below ~80, in or out of the Safari Zone. The ball should miss frequently.

[Hemp Man]

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

Why is Red, who can hit a Pokemon the size of a flea with a Poke Ball without ever missing outside the Safari Zone, suddenly missing against things larger than Butterfree?

The Safari Zone ball probably isn't user friendly.

[TM13IceBeam]

iirc Safari Balls are basically Great Balls

although i don't think i encountered a case of the ball ever shaking once or twice against mewtwo/zapdos :/

[Zowayix]

RBY has a different way of determining how much the ball shakes. The number is actually based on the probability of catching it, so if you don't weaken it between balls, then the number of shakes will always, always be constant, unless you catch it.

If you don't catch it, then the number of shakes will always be 0 if the catch probability is under 10%, 1 if 10%-30%, 2 if 30%-70%, and 3 if 70%-99%.

So if you chuck Ultra Balls at a full health legendary, then the chance is under 10%. The ball will always, always either completely miss or completely succeed. Nothing in between.

[atsync]

This pokeball stuff is interesting and all, but what does it have to do with the tiers?

[Alice in Strings]

Nothing, I guess. By the way, I noticed that the Grimer entry failed to mention you could fish and surf for Grimer in Celadon Pool (it's literally the only thing there), so it misses a couple of gyms, including one it might do well in.

[Hemp Man]

Hmm, on the Mr. Mime entry, I don't think it gives the fact that he learns Thunderbolt enough credit. Sure as hell makes fighting Sabrina and Lorelei a lot easier, and allows you to easily take down Lance/Blue's Gyarados (Aerodactyl is weak to it too but it can outspeed you and Hyper Beam to hell anyway).

[Alice in Strings]

Gonna do a rewrite on Weedle, since the current entry is pretty bare bones.



-Weedle Bottom Tier
-Availability: It's oh so hard to get in Red Version. All you have to do is step into Viridian Forest, and you get swarmed by these little monsters. They also appear on Routes 24 and 25 in Red Version. They're rare in Blue, and don't appear at all in Yellow.
-Stats: Its best stat is Base 80. While this is good for the early game, as it evolves super early, it really starts to show later on, when things are hitting harder and take hits better.
-Movepool: While Beedrill doesn't need too many TMs (Beedrill isn't bulky enough to take advantage of Swords Dance), he really REALLY lacks in any powerful moves. His most powerful move (and the one you should be using) is Twineedle, with 50 Base Power that can hit behind Subs. He can also learn Cut, if you want a Cut slave. Other than that...nothing of note.
-Power: Beedrill has a big problem late in the game, but what are you gonna use Bug against in the late game? Beedrill's niche (if you could call it that) is having the most powerful Bug type move in the game. This isn't too impressive later on, but most of the enemies in the early-game are Grass, Psychic, and Poison types.
-Type: Bug/Poison offers it no defensive aids other than being quad resistant to Grass.
-Match-ups: Brock actually doesn't have any Rock type moves on his Pokemon. You could theoretically Poison Sting and activate Full Heal, and then Poison Sting again, hoping for another Poison. The key word here is "theoretically". Misty is a complete cakewalk with Beedrill, as Beedrill somehow outspeeds Starmie at Level 20 (when it gets Twineedle) and 2HKO's it. Beedrill can handle Surge's Voltorb and Pikachu, but the Raichu might be too much for his low Special stat. Erika is another cakewalk thanks to Twineedle being 4x effective; it's literally the most powerful attack you could bring into that gym thanks to that. A decently leveled Beedrill can also take on Koga's Pokemon without too much hassle, unless one of his Koffings self-destruct. Sabrina's a different story; while you'll be able to take out most of her Pokemon, the Alakazam is way too fast for Beedrill to hit. You're also risking a lot with that low Special Stat. Blaine...just...it's a terrible idea, so don't try it. Giovanni on the other hand...you can actually do something here. He has a couple of Poison types (Nidorino, anyone?) but you're also risking getting hit with Fissure, since he'll outspeed. The E4 is a crapshoot for Beedrill. He can actually take on Bruno because Fighting sucks in Gen 1, and for some reason the Hitmonchan has the three Elemental Punches...but that's his only use there.

The one thing Beedrill is amazing at is fighting mooks. Specifically the Rocket mooks. This is where he shines, as the Rockets can't really do much to stop the bee. If only it had a bit better everything, it'd be great. It really is the superior choice over Butterfree, though. But then...why aren't you using Rattata?

[atsync]

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

By the way, I noticed that the Grimer entry failed to mention you could fish and surf for Grimer in Celadon Pool (it's literally the only thing there), so it misses a couple of gyms, including one it might do well in.

I'm pretty sure that isn't actually true in 1st gen.

Originally Posted by Fat Hemp Man

Hmm, on the Mr. Mime entry, I don't think it gives the fact that he learns Thunderbolt enough credit. Sure as hell makes fighting Sabrina and Lorelei a lot easier, and allows you to easily take down Lance/Blue's Gyarados (Aerodactyl is weak to it too but it can outspeed you and Hyper Beam to hell anyway).

When I wrote that entry I purposely tried not to focus on Thunderbolt too much because in my opinion the chances of Mr. Mime having access to it are slim. It has to compete for it with Electrics types for a start (I used it alongside a Magnemite so obviously I didn't have Thunderbolt on Mr. Mime), and after that there are some other non-Electric types that, I feel, benefit from the extra coverage more than Mr. Mime.

I found that STAB Psychic (with STAB Confusion for weaker opponents to conserve Psychic's somewhat low PP) was all it needed to be a good pokemon. That covers most things fine. Thunderbolt certainly helps in certain situations but I didn't want people to think that Thunderbolt was essential for Mr. Mime and I decided it would be better to focus on his access to STAB Psychic attacks and the boosted experience.

I don't think it needs a complete re-write but I guess a few mentions in the Match-up sections wouldn't hurt. Wouldn't consider it a priority or anything though.

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

Gonna do a rewrite on Weedle, since the current entry is pretty bare bones.

Naix already did a Weedle rewrite here. It's on the previous page, but it hasn't been uploaded yet.

[Alice in Strings]

Two things to add: One, checked Bulba on Grimer, and you're right. It's available in Celedon in every Generation BUT 1 there. But in Yellow, you can find them in the Power Plant, which means that it still can fight Sabrina and Erika if it wants to.

Two, I completely missed that entry from Naix. Feel free to completely disregard that Weedle revamp if you want.

[atsync]

Bump?


I think something that could be discussed is split entries. The OP states that people have the option of doing separate entries by version if they believe that they are different enough to justify them, even if they end up in the same tier, but not many people have done this. Currently we have split entries for all the starters and Machop/Machamp, which I agree with. Pikachu and Machop didn't end up in separate tiers but they are certainly different enough to get split entries (Pikachu can't evolve in Yellow but at least gets Thunderbolt by level up, and players have guaranteed access to Machamp in Yellow with boosted experience although it still isn't that great). I think Pikachu and Machop/Machamp are among the only things in 1st gen that have enough differences between versions to get split entries regardless of tier placement (well, the other starters would probably get them too even if they ended up in the same tier but they didn't so it doesn't matter). Farfetch'd, I think, could also get split entries regardless of tier placement because there is a lot of difference between the versions. It's not that bad in RB, but Yellow nerfed Farfetch'd quite a bit. After these, I think that anything else that gets split entries should only have them if they were to end up in different tiers. Otherwise, it would get messy if we decided to just split each entry for the tiniest differences. However, I think there are some pokemon that should have further consideration of split entries, mainly because I think the differences in availability and the level they are obtained has a noticable impact on their usefulness. Note that I'm not saying that we should actually split these entries yet, I'm just trying to get discussion going. Anyway, I think split entries COULD be justified for the following:

• Growlithe (Red vs. Yellow): I wrote this entry, but I only used it in Red. Although I considered separating them at the time, I decided that it would be quicker to merge them. I figured that if anyone thought it was clearly wrong to do it that way then they would say something and they could be split, although it seems that I'm the one bringing up my own entry! Currently, I still think Red Growlithe deserves High. It's battling performance is at least as good as Charizard's (more powerful Dig and better stats overall, but no Slash), although it comes later, is a tad underleveled and (like Charizard) requires some TM support from Dig, all of which stop it from getting in Top. However, in Yellow it comes MUCH later. Yellow Growlithe/Arcanine misses out on the Rocket Hideout, Lavender Tower, some routes to Fuchsia City and Koga's gym, all places where RB Arcanine is very good, and it means having to withhold Dig for much longer when you could be using it on something else and reaping the benefits of Dig earlier on. It does come at a good level, can evolve right away, and has Blaine's gym and Silph Co. Team Rocket to go up against, but it seems less useful in Yellow. So perhaps Yellow Growlithe should get a separate entry in Mid?
• Horsea (Red and Yellow vs. Blue): It's stats are pretty good (better that some of the other Water types) and in Red and Yellow it comes at a good level. It's movepool sucks though (it can't touch Water types for its life for example) and it doesn't really have anything extra that would persuade anyone to use it over the many Water type alternatives in the game, which puts it below the better Waters and into Mid. In Blue however, it is less useful. It is stuck at level 15 in Blue, which is a long way to go to catch up to the rest of your team (which would probably be around level 35 max or so). I find it really hard to justify ever using it in Blue, especially when there are more time efficient alternatives that provide more to the team. Should we put Blue Horsea in Low?
• Goldeen (Red and Blue vs. Yellow): I'm only half serious in suggesting this but I was looking at Seaking's stats and they actually aren't that bad. It's offenses are at worst on par with Blastoise, Slowbro, Poliwrath and Golduck (the later 3 are probably all going to end up in Mid by the way). 68 Speed is a tad low but it will really only be noticed against speed demons like Alakazam. Movepool wise it gets Surf and Ice moves as usual, and it can use either 92 Attack Double-Edge (meh) or X-Accuracy/Horn Drill to deal with opposing waters. Now, all of this is fairly irrelevent in RB because it comes so underleveled and evolves late, making it a poor choice. But in Yellow you can catch it at level 30 as a Goldeen or a Seaking (level 40 Seaking also exists, but I think you need Surf to reach the water where you can fish it up). It probably needs testing but... maybe Yellow Goldeen could go Mid? Or am I severely overestimating this?
• Psyduck (Red and Blue vs. Yellow): I know I'm being hypocritical because I said to just merge the entries before, but if we do the others I suggested then this should be done too.
• Voltorb and Magnemite: These have been discussed to death but I guess I should mention them again along with the others.

Again, not saying that we definitely should do this. Growlithe is the main one that I think could get them, and the others are just me theorymoning when looking at the current list that I'm mentioning for the hell of it. What do others think? Do we need to do this, or should be not bother wasting our time and just leave the entries as they are (but maybe mention that pokemon A is less useful in Red/Blue/Yellow/whatever to warn players using the list who might not be aware)?

Just something to think about.

[Chou Toshio]

Originally Posted by Fat Hemp Man

And Naix I think Mekkah already used Farfethd in a play (I could be wrong though, but I think he told me once he used it), so you should probably do Spearow.

Mekkah used it, but my write up is still there, and honestly it's pretty crap.

Farfetch'd - Low Tier (Top Tier as HM Slave; Bottom tier as a battler)
Availability: Somewhat early, as you trade Spearow for it in Vermilion city. Notably, you get it in the same town as Cut.
Stats: Crap, don't bother battling with this... just don't... Pidgey is better. Doduo is better. Spearow is probably your best in-game Normal-/Flying-type (and it's not that great at all).
Movepool: Cut + Fly... NICE!! Yeah, Farfetch'd's biggest selling point is being the only Pokemon to learn Cut + Fly (except for Charizard). In fact it's the only Pokemon in the game to learn Fly + any other HM, except for Charizard (don't teach Charizard cut... also you're Charmeleon won't evolve until long after you've gotten Fly) and Fly + Flash Zapdos (which is pointless since you're not going to waste Zapdos that way, and you've gotten through Rock Tunnel by the time you get Zados). Cut + Fly is a pretty useful HM combination around the time you get Fly, letting you chop your way into Celadon City Gym, and around the Safari Zone and surrounding routes while also boasting the ability to move freely between Celadon, Lavender, Saffron and Fushia. Farfetch'd is undoubtedly one of the best HM slaves in the game.
Power: Quack
Type: It gets STAB on Cut and Fly... Quack
Match-ups:
All: Quack
Additional Comments: Considering you're just going to catch a Spearow for it (which are really easy to find east of Vermilion, and not too hard to find before Mt. Moon), and how much time Farfetch'd's Fly + Cut combo will save you mid-game, it's probably worth taking the time to trade for in Vermilion. Just don't battle with it... EVER; though like all HM slaves, it makes a good sacrifice when you need to make a safe switch-in. However, if you want a fly slave you won't feel embarrassed riding on... go with Pidgeot, Charizard, or Articuno...

I think this would be better:

Farfetch'd (RB) - Mid Tier (overall) Fighting: low / Utility: top
Availability: Somewhat early, as you trade Spearow for it in Vermilion city. BTW, you can catch Spearow easily just outside Vermilion if you haven't got one already.
Stats: Its stats are terrible. It is outclassed by every other normal/flying type in the game in stats, even Pidgeot is better.
Movepool: Cut + Fly... NICE!! Farfetch'd is the only Pokemon in the game to get Cut + Fly, two relatively poorly distributed HM moves. Dux is obtained in the same town as Cut, so the same time you'll start needing him. He's also there ready and waiting when you get Fly. Cut + Fly is incredibly useful in moving in and around Celadon and Fusia, and moving between all the main mid-game towns. This makes Farfetch'd arguably the most useful HM slave in the whole game. Also, Farfetch'd gets the 140 base power Slash (with the crit), and Swords Dance (which works with Fly or Hyper Beam). DUX also gets boosted experience points. Not saying that any of this makes it better than a Dodrio or Fearow, but it's not completely unusable as a battler.
Power: Quack Slash / Swords Dance kind of make up for crappy ATK.
Type: A million other options with this typing, which is just ok. Repetitive STABs, not-so-useful resistances.
Match-ups:
Lt. Surge: No.
Erika: You get Fly in Celadon, so Farfetch'd can basically roll through her, just like any flying type in Celadon.
Koga: You're too weak to do much here as his pokes have great DEF... too bad there are no venonats...
Sabrina: You will probably get fried before you get to do much. If for some reason you don't get killed instantly, Slash will hit her pokes very hard.
Blaine: Farfetch'd can beat growlithe, and can do a bit of damage. Don't expect it to sweep the gym though...
Giovanni: His pokes mostly have great DEF and hit hard. Rhydon laughs at anything and everything you could do. This is not a great gym for DUX.
Lorelei: Beam'd to death...
Bruno: If you have leveled up sufficiently, Dux can kind of help against the fighting types.
Agatha: Since her pokes are often faster, expect to be confused and haxed a lot. You can do some damage with SD + Fly if you manage to attack alright.
Lance: Hyper Beam'd to death...
Rival: Pokemon you can beat: Exeggcutor. Pidgeot too. Time your Fly to dodge Sky Attack and you'll be fine. With SD up it can potentially be helpful against things not named Rhydon.

Additional Comments: There are 2 things a player should do to make his RB run faster and more convenient/fun. The first is get the bicycle, the second is add DUX to his party. Just remember that DUX is probably the best HM slave in all the RBY universe. If we were tiering it purely based on utility, it would be top tier. Unless you really hate the mental image of dry humping a small duck to go from town to town, there's really no reason why you WOULDN'T have DUX on your team between Vermillion/Lavender/Saffron/Fushia. It's just so good as a HM slave, unless you enjoy inconvenience, DUX should probably be on your RB team at some point.