Pokemon RBY In-game Tiers - Mark II

[atsync]

Quick question. I'm currently using Oddish, and I'm at level 20 (so 1 level away from Gloom). However, I'm not sure whether evolving right away is necessarily a good idea. Gloom gets Acid and Petal Dance later than Oddish, which means I can't evolve to Vileplume until level 38 (unless I choose to skip Petal Dance). If I keep it as an Oddish, I can get Petal Dance Vileplume at level 33. So do you guys think I should evolve to Gloom now and benefit from slightly higher stats in exchange for earlier Petal Dance, or should I go on with Oddish to give myself access to Vileplume with Petal Dance at bit sooner? For what it's worth, Oddish's stats don't improve THAT much when it evolves to Gloom (10 extra Speed and Special, and 15 extra for the other stats). On the other hand, I'm not sure how beneficial having Petal Dance Vileplume that early is (based on my experiences, level 33-38 roughly corresponds to Pokemon Tower and the routes to Fuschia and Vileplume doesn't do all that well in those areas).

I'm leaning towards evolving to Gloom right away, but I'm wondering what others think.

[Naix]

I've never used Oddish before (in RBY, at least), so I can't speak from experience, but I'd keep in mind that Grass isn't exactly the best STAB during mid-game, meaning Gloom/Vileplume needs all the power it can get, whether it be earlier with immediate evolution and Mega Drain or delayed evolution in exchange for Petal Dance. However, Petal Dance is learned at level 38, and by that point Routes 11-15 have been cleared out and you'd be halfway through Cycling Road. Because of this, I'd recommend evolving Gloom right away.

[Hemp Man]

I thought Vileplume could learn Petal Dance through level-up, but Bubapedia says I'm wrong. Gee, seems to me that outside of Misty there isn't much worth too Oddish. No CH Razor Leaf, or even Growth + Mega Drain combo. I suppose you could try for Swords Dance, but Posion isn't the best Physical STAB.

[atsync]

Originally Posted by Fat Hemp Man

I thought Vileplume could learn Petal Dance through level-up, but Bubapedia says I'm wrong. Gee, seems to me that outside of Misty there isn't much worth too Oddish. No CH Razor Leaf, or even Growth + Mega Drain combo. I suppose you could try for Swords Dance, but Posion isn't the best Physical STAB.

Well that's why I wanted to test it out. I was actually going to test Bellsprout originally, but I decided that I would probably learn more from using Oddish. It has decent stats but it's slow and it really got the short end of the stick in regards to movepool compared to Bellsprout and Bulbasaur.

I think that it might be good enough for Mid, but only just. Absorb is weak but there are plenty of Rock and Ground types early on to kill. Water types aren't as common but they do appear on the S.S. Anne. It needs lots of support to deal with other stuff, but it can at least be a little bit useful for Grass-weak things (i.e. it can do something besides beat Misty). Speaking of which, it pretty much hard counters Misty's gym and is the best choice for her in Red if you don't pick Bulbasaur. I've never really seen beating Misty as being that big of a deal but I can tell from the responses in that "hardest in-game opponent" thread that others think it's very important, and since this list is supposed to be about majority consensus it seems better to put it in Mid. I probably wouldn't use it in Yellow though because Bellsprout seems way better.

I haven't finished the playthough but it should contribute late-game too, thanks to Giovanni and Bruno losing to it. Mid-game is really where it's going to suck.

[NoUserName]

Originally Posted by Fat Hemp Man

I thought Vileplume could learn Petal Dance through level-up, but Bubapedia says I'm wrong. Gee, seems to me that outside of Misty there isn't much worth too Oddish. No CH Razor Leaf, or even Growth + Mega Drain combo. I suppose you could try for Swords Dance, but Posion isn't the best Physical STAB.

Actually Poison is fairly decent/good along with Grass. Both together only miss Poisons, which tend to also be Grass or Bug making them neutral or Ghosts, which are rare. So, its STAB only misses Agatha, Koga and Pokemon Tower.

The problem isn't its Poison STAB offensively, it is that its most powerful Poison move of that type in Vileplume(Oddish) is Acid..., better stick with Double-Edge.

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat NoUserName

Actually Poison is fairly decent/good along with Grass. Both together only miss Poisons, which tend to also be Grass or Bug making them neutral or Ghosts, which are rare. So, its STAB only misses Agatha, Koga and Pokemon Tower.

The problem isn't its Poison STAB offensively, it is that its most powerful Poison move of that type in Vileplume(Oddish) is Acid..., better stick with Double-Edge.

I've used Vileplume before, and it's honestly not bad. Go for Petal Dance; just like in the other games, Petal Dance is pretty nifty.

I'm actually questioning Beedrill's position in Bottom Tier. I'm using it in a Scramble, and it's outdamaging Ivysaur and Clefable with ease. All three of those guys are at the same level, so I could see it having Raticate syndrome; hitting hard early on, but tapering off later. I'll try soloing Sabrina with it to see if it can indeed outspeed Alakazam, but I definitely would go at least Low for it. It's certainly better than the Pidgey line.

[Naix]

Well, I got my next revamp written up. Here it is.

Krabby Revamp

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-Krabby – High Tier (Low Tier in Red)
-Availability: While Krabby can be caught in its base form by fishing with the Super Rod in various areas including (but not limited to) Fuschia City, Vermilion City, and Routes 11, 12, 18, it'll only be level 15, meaning it would have quite a long way to catch up the rest of the party. Krabby can also be found in Seafoam Islands in Blue and Yellow with their levels being in the low 30's. Its evolved form, Kingler, can be found in each of the games. In Red, the best you can do in terms of obtaining it is fishing it up with the Super Rod in Route 23 at level 23, which is better than being level 15 but still has quite a while to catch up. In Yellow, it can be found in the bottom 2 floors of Seafoam Islands by means of the Super Rod at level 35. However, Kingler's availability in Blue is the best out of the original 3 games. In the B3 floor of Seafoam Islands, Kingler can be found at level 39, which should be very similar in level to the rest of your team, provided you went to get it before clearing out Silph Co. While they only have a 4% chance of appearing, Repels remedy this, provided the Pokemon leading your party isn't below level 34 or above level 39 at the time. Krabby can evolve at level 28, in other words right after being caught.
-Stats: Kingler has a massive base 130 Attack, which is tied with Rhydon and Flareon and second only to Dragonite, which is almost impossible to get in-game without a large amount of grinding. Its Defense isn't too far behind, and its Speed is enough to outpace an almost all of the game's remaining Pokemon (at least those who aren't higher leveled than it). However, Kingler's weakest stat is Special, at a dismal base 50. Of course, If you settled for Krabby to get earlier access to Crabhammer, you don't have to worry too much, as it still has solid Attack and Defense.
-Movepool: Krabby and Kingler have exclusive access to the move Crabhammer, which acts like a slightly more powerful, 85% accurate, Water-type Slash, and as such is the best Water-type move in the game. As such, it makes up for Kingler's pathetic Special, and is almost mandatory on it. Kingler, like most other Water-types, has access to Ice Beam and Blizzard, but its awful Special means its usability outside of Lance is just as bad. Also, Kingler can learn Guillotine, which is an OHKO move and as such can make it quite useful for major battles in combination with X Accuracy and X Speed when Crabhammer and Strength can't cut it. Kingler learns Guillotine at level 25 and Crabhammer at level 42. Also, catching Krabby rather than Kingler in Yellow for an earlier Crabhammer is a definite option, as Krabby learns it at level 35.
-Power: Against the majority of trainers, Kingler does well, with Crabhammer to annihilate anything weak to it and Strength to deal with everything else. Crabhammer and Water-typing combined with a titanic Base 130 Attack make Kingler a mixed attacker capable of holding its own against almost every remaining trainer in the game.
-Type: While Kingler is a Water-type with no secondary typings, it isn't too bad, because Kingler's weaknesses are both very uncommon, meaning Kingler won't have much to worry about in the majority of battles as far as type match-ups are concerned.
-Match-ups: The X item + Guillotine combination will not be taken into account for these battles, as Kingler defeats everybody (with the exceptions of Agatha and Sabrina) with it.
--Sabrina: Although Strength hits her Pokemon like a truck, the majority of her Pokemon are faster than Kingler and hurt it hard due to its dismal Special.
--Blaine: Considering the fact that his Pokemon are weak to Crabhammer and the fact that Kingler can confidently take physical hits not boosted by STAB, the outcome of this should be easy to see.
--Giovanni: Giovanni is steamrolled in Red and Blue, but he is definitely more threatening to Kingler in Yellow, as both his Nidos know Thunder, meaning if they survive a Crabhammer, there's a 70% chance of it getting fried.
--Lorelei: Unfortunately for Kingler, Lorelei happens to have Cloyster, Slowbro, and Lapras: the 3 Water-types that give Kingler the most trouble, in her arsenal.
--Bruno: Kingler can take a good amount of his Pokemon's attacks and whack them hard with Crabhammer, but don't expect Kingler to take hits from his entire team, as it only 2HKOes the Fighting-types, meaning they're guaranteed to get at least one hit in, and Hitmonlee can attack a second time before going down, thanks to its superior Speed.
--Agatha: Her Ghost-types can comfortably take everything Kingler can throw at it, although multiple Crabhammers will wear them down over time. It doesn't help that her first Gengar in Yellow knows Mega Drain.
--Lance: While Kingler can withstand more than one Hyper Beam, the only Pokemon it can do large amounts of damage against without the need for TMs is Aerodactyl. If Blizzard is added to the mix, Kingler can take out some of his Dragon-types, but they're merely 2HKOes against them, which when combined with Blizzards pathetic 5 PP means it usually won't be able to defeat his 2 Dragonair and his Dragonite in the same battle. In Yellow, Lance's first Dragonair and Dragonite know Thunderbolt and Thunder, respectively, neutralizing any attempts at chilling them to the bone.
--Rival: Needless to say, Alakazam, Magneton, and Jolteon beat Kingler with little trouble. Venusaur also does this, but it would require you to start the game with Squirtle, which means that scenario is very unlikely to happen. Gyarados, Cloyster, and Vaporeon can cause trouble, thanks to their usable, stellar, and solid (respectively) physical bulk. Everything else is handily beaten.

-Additional Comments: Arguably the best thing about Kingler is that it can learn very powerful moves (Strength hurts a ton when coming off a base 130 Attack) with absolutely no TM support, which sets it apart from almost every other Water-type that can be found in Seafoam Islands. This combined with its respectable physical bulk and perfect neutral coverage in just two moves allows it to be a surprisingly good Pokemon, at least in Blue and Yellow. In Red, it can only be obtained at level 23, which is a far cry from Yellow's 35 and Blue's 39.

Of all the revamps I've done so far, this one is probably the most controversial one. I am open to (and in fact welcome) any criticisms regarding it from anybody.

@Alice in Strings

The revamp I wrote for Weedle (which is on pages 13 and 17 has it in Low, and I reached that conclusion from a playthrough where there were no restrictions against it whatsoever. Playthroughs where the Pokemon you're using have ristrictions hamper their usefulness, making them seem worse than they might actually be, while at the same time the other Pokemon might be more restricted, making them worse than other Pokemon when they might be superior under normal conditions.

[atsync]

Well yeah that is controversial lol

It does seem a pretty high placement but then I guess if you think about it you COULD just use Guillotine to deal with stuff that Crabhammer falls short against like Lorelei, just like the traded Dewgong. I was actually about to say that Crabhammer's crit rate isn't perfect, but then I saw it does actually beat the minimum 64 Speed required to get 100% crits with high-crit rate moves.

Maybe I should try it out in my current playthough, but maybe with a Ice move just to see whether it helps with Lance...

EDIT: Oh, and people shouldn't get too fussed about Low vs. Bottom. Technically there is a difference (e.g. no-one thinks that Ditto is as useful as Pidgey) but the merger makes it unnecessary to differentiate them and all Low and Bottom pokemon should just be called Low. If they are ever separated again then we can worry about it.

[atsync]

Sorry for double posting.

I have some thoughts on things I've been using (and some other stuff). For the record, my final team in this Yellow playthrough will be:

Vileplume
Seaking
Cloyster
Farfetch'd
Kingler
Arcanine

I want to try out other things, but team slots only permit so much stuff.

Firstly, I should say that after reading Naix's entry for Krabby I was reminded about how you can catch level 23 Seadra, Seaking, Slowbro and Kingler on Route 23. This is nice to know because it makes me less inclined to separate Horsea and Goldeen by version now, as I suggested before. They are still a tad underleveled but it would take too long to catch up I don't think, and I also don't think the difference is severe enough to justify split entries.

Vileplume

I've already posted about this. This is Mid, but ONLY because it has useful match-ups early on (notably Misty, as well as Lt. Surge and the common Rock/Ground types). Seriously, this thing is pretty crappy other wise.

I did end up evolving it to Gloom straight away, and it was the right decision. The extra bulk made a significant difference (it basically plays like a Tangela early game), and waiting longer for Petal Dance isn't that big of a deal because it wouldn't help it along Cycling road or routes 12-15. Vileplume's Petal Dance isn't even that good because it barely scrapes a 2HKO against many things and often has to switch out straight away to avoid the confusion. It just doesn't compare to Victreebel and Venusaur Razor Leafing stuff, although I would still put Bellsprout and Oddish in the same tier (if we were ranking pokemon in an order, I'd go Bellsprout at the higher end of Mid, Oddish at the lower end).

I'm probably not going to rewrite Oddish. The current write-up is short but the information is all correct. The only debatable thing is the way it sort of dismisses its low Speed by saying that most things are even slower, because I found it was being outsped at least 50% of the time, possibly more. Not that big of a deal though.

Seaking

This is decent, but severely outclassed. I caught it at level 30 as a Seaking as soon as I got the Super Rod and gave it BubbleBeam and Ice Beam, and it pretty much did as well as most of the other Mid tier water types. Its highish Attack is pretty worthless though, so it ends up being a Seadra with less Special and Speed (but with X-Accuracy + Horn Drill for Water types).

Still should be Mid I think because it can still do most of what Seadra and Golduck can do and the difference is merely aesthetic, so I'll rewrite this when I get the time.

Cloyster

I rewrote an entry for this already, but I wanted to try it out just to make sure I wasn't talking out of my ass! I would still call it High, but maybe at the lower end. I literally caught it at level 35 from Cycling road and evolved it straight away, and STAB Aurora Beam was pretty good until you get to Surf (note that it didn't get BubbleBeam because of Seaking). I also gave it Tri Attack, but it hasn't been that useful. I'll wait until I start battling the late-game Water types before I judge though.

Overall, it's basically Dewgong without the boosted experience, but it's still a good late game Water.

Farfetch'd

This was actually better than I thought it would be, but still Low. Swords Dance + Fly actually sweeps whole teams (my level 38 Farfetch'd pulled off an sweep against Koga), but having to set up nearly every battle sucks, and sometimes I needed Agility as well. You also need to catch a level 31 Farfetch'd to ensure it isn't underleveled. I used to Repel trick and it took 15 minutes, despite the fact that the repel made level 31 Farfetch'd's encounter rate 100%.

But yeah, no boosted experience, later availability, and its Cut + Fly niche is useless now because you would have encountered all the cutable trees by the time you get it. What a nerf.

Kingler

I haven't made up my mind about this yet.

Firstly, I'll start by saying that this should definitely be above Low. Crabhammer really does make up for the 50 Special. I actually did an experiment using a Lickitung (used by that trainer outside the Power Plant) to compare it to Seaking's Surf:

Level 38 Kingler's Crabhammer vs. Level 30 Lickitung: OHKO
Level 38 Seaking's Surf vs. Level 30 Lickitung: about 75% damage

When you consider that Seaking, Slowbro and Golduck all have 80 Special, and Kabutops and Poliwrath have have 70 Special, you can see that Kingler's Crabhammer potentially outdamages Surf from a lot of its Water type competition (although in some cases they have other moves, like Kabutops with Slash). I wonder how Crabhammer compares to Starmie's 100 Special Surf?

I actually caught mine as a level 31 Krabby and used Rare Candies to get it to Level 35. I did this so that I could get Crabhammer on Kingler earlier (it learns it at level 42). Not sure how important that is but it seemed like the better option. It does make me doubt Red Kingler in Mid though. Level 23 is a long way from level 42. Would 50 Special BubbleBeam/Surf and Stomp/Strength really be enough to carry it to Crabhammer?

I also gave it Blizzard. Quite weak considering Level 38 Kingler could even OHKO a level 31 Parasect. I want to see whether it can kill Lance's Dragonite though, since that's the main reason to use unSTABed Ice moves on Water types (things like Agatha's Golbat can be killed with other things). Strength from 130 Attack is also pretty good, but I prefer to just spam Crabhammer. Too bad about the accuracy, although I haven't been to unlucky with that yet.

So I don't know yet. I'll wait until I'm done to judge it properly though.

Arcanine

Yellow Growlithe should not be in High with Red Growlithe. It is far too unavailable for that.

Like, this thing really needs Dig, but is it really worth waiting that long to use Dig? I was using a Mankey early on in this playthrough and I would have liked to have used Dig on it then to deal with Poison types a bit better, but then Growlithe wouldn't be anywhere near as useful. If it doesn't get Dig or Body Slam, it's stuck with Take Down/Double Edge and Fire Blast as options (Fire Blast isn't even that useful late game).

The level of capture is an issue too. Technically you can get it at level 38 but... I was using the repel trick for a good half an hour and did not find a single level 38 Growlithe! I gave up on repels and settled for level 30 as that was the highest I managed to find in the end. It helps that Silph Co. Rocket Grunts are underleveled enough for Arcanine to contribute, but it sapped a lot of potential experience from its team mates.

I'm tempted to put Yellow Growlithe in Low for being so inefficent. It's definitely getting a split though.

Electabuzz, RB Magnemite and Yellow Voltorb

I didn't use any of these but I was thinking about the Electabuzz rewrite Naix did that put it in Low mainly because of the competition is gets from other electric types. I was thinking that if you are going to use such reasoning to put Electabuzz in Low, couldn't you use similar reasoning for RB Magnemite and Yellow Voltorb, who are in Mid with Yellow Magnemite and RB Voltorb? They are in a similar situation to Electabuzz aren't they? Just a thought.

[Hemp Man]

I didn't use any of these but I was thinking about the Electabuzz rewrite Naix did that put it in Low mainly because of the competition is gets from other electric types. I was thinking that if you are going to use such reasoning to put Electabuzz in Low, couldn't you use similar reasoning for RB Magnemite and Yellow Voltorb who are in Mid with Yellow Magnemite and RB Voltorb? They are in a similar situation to Electabuzz aren't they? Just a thought.

I thought Mekkah said we wont judging these based on comparisons to other Pokemon?

[atsync]

Originally Posted by Fat Hemp Man

I thought Mekkah said we wont judging these based on comparisons to other Pokemon?

I know that, but that was how Electabuzz was done, and I'm just saying that we shouldn't have double standards where we give Electabuzz a bad review for being worse than Raichu but then disregard that for RB Magnemite and Yellow Voltorb.

EDIT: Yes I know that Raichu isn't available in Yellow (plus Pikachu doesn't need the Thunderbolt TM so no problems there), but the argument can be made using Jolteon or even Yellow Magnemite) instead of Raichu.

[atsync]

I've finished my playthrough.

I am supporting Blue and Yellow Krabby in High. I had to think about it for a bit, but I think what sealed the deal for me is that, as Naix says in his write-up, it can achieve excellent power with absolutely no sacrifices TM-wise. It's actually similar to Cloyster, who I also see as High tier, in that regard (it gets Aurora Beam as free Ice STAB, the Surf HM and the little contested but overall unnecessary Tri Attack as a move set). Crabhammer is a level-up move learned at level 35 as Krabby which I think is the best way to get it in Yellow (I think level 39 Kingler should be ok in Blue as it isn't that far to go and Cinnabar makes grinding easier, although high level Krabby can be obtained too) and Strength is a HM, and that's all it particularly needs. All other moves are filler. It is the exact definition of efficient, even if it isn't necessarily as powerful a battler as Starmie, Omaster and Tentacruel.

I think the best move set would be:

Crabhammer
Strength/Body Slam
Surf/Blizzard/Guillotine
Surf/Blizzard/Guillotine

Body Slam is a better move than Strength but using it is costly and Strength is good enough. I like Surf as a back up move to Crabhammer because of the accuracy and pp issues, but that only matters if your team is small. Blizzard (or Ice Beam) is weak from 50 Special but it still at least 2HKOs its targets so it's fine as a filler. X-Accuracy + Guillotine is a good strategy but usually gets ignored in tiering so whatever. Maybe Swords Dance could get thrown in there somewhere to boost Strength (Kingler is just fast enough to try it).

Red Krabby should be Low I think. It has way too far to go for Crabhammer, and a Kingler without Crabhammer is a bad pokemon. Might need testing though to see if it can really be useful enough to wait that long.

I made some very minor edits to Shellder's entry here. It isn't much different but I have the link if people really want to look at it.

Some entries I wrote up:

Goldeen

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-Goldeen - Mid Tier
-Availability: This can be obtained as soon as you get the Super Rod. RB players should head over to Route 23 and fish up a level 23 Seaking. This is slightly underleveled but it’s not unsalvageable. Yellow players can catch a level 30 Seaking north of Cerulean City, which requires no grinding at all. If preferred, Yellow players can also wait until they get Surf, which allows them to Surf to the Cerulean City water and fish up a Level 40 Seaking. Given that Water types really take off towards the end of the game, this is a viable choice too.
-Stats: With 92 Attack and 80 Special, Seaking has the stats to hit reasonably hard from both sides of the spectrum. 68 Speed is a bit on the low side but it’s just enough to ensure that you are only outsped by the fastest opponents (e.g. Alakazam). Seaking has decent special bulk, although its physical bulk isn’t that great. This is not a serious issue against regular trainers though.
-Movepool: Seaking’s main problem is that it has no good physical moves to use with its good Attack. It has to turn to Double-Edge or Horn Attack to deal with opposing Waters, although Horn Drill can be used to deal with them. Seaking gets BubbleBeam/Surf and Ice moves and this is what it will be using most of the time. Seaking has enough Special to make good use of them too.
-Power: Seaking’s power is adequate when using Surf and Ice moves, and its Normal moves will allow it to beat most Water types one-on-one, if a bit slowly. Seaking is far from spectacular but as a Water type it gets the job done.
-Type: Water proves to be very useful throughout the game, but is particularly great late-game thanks to good match-ups. Water covers a lot of the late-game Pokémon and with Ice moves for coverage it should be a helpful tool to get you through the end of the game. Water’s defensive weaknesses are usually a non-issue. Ice moves hit Grass types and Electric moves are rare and predictable for the most part.
-Match-ups: Koga – Nothing to say here really. STAB Surf hits his specially frail Pokémon fairly well in RB, although a sweep is difficult. In Yellow, don’t expect a sweep either and just be content with taking down a Venonat or two.
Sabrina – Like many Water types, Seaking isn’t that useful here. The large Special stats of her Pokémon soak up Surf fairly easily and Seaking is too slow to try sweeping with its Normal moves.
Blaine – An excellent match-up. STAB Surf hits his Pokémon hard. Be careful around Arcanine’s Take Down though, as it hits you on your weaker side.
Giovanni – Another good match-up. Surf covers everything bar Persian, who you may be better off leaving to someone else (you can beat it but it will leave you with a bit a damage). Yellow is a tougher battle because of the better move sets you are facing (e.g. Thunder from Nidoqueen and Nidoking).
Lorelei – Seaking is fairly worthless here. Double-Edge and Horn Attack aren’t going to be enough to sweep, and you may have to resort to Horn Drill if you really must use Seaking. You are always better off using something else though.
Bruno – Onix dies fairly easily, and Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee have poor Specials and lose quickly to Surf. However, be prepared for Hitmonlee and Machamp hitting you with powerful physical attacks.
Agatha – Golbat is weak to Ice, and Arbok isn’t that powerful. Leave the ghosts to something else. They’ll just outspeed and status you (one of the Gengar even has Mega Drain), and you can’t do much back
Lance – With Surf and an Ice move, you cover everything except Gyarados, who should be dealt with by other means. Be careful around Dragonite especially; if it outspeeds you then you may eat a Thunder.
Blue – With Surf and Ice Beam/Blizzard, you can hit Pidgeot, Rhydon, Exeggutor, Charizard and Arcanine in RB, and Sandslash, Exeggutor, Ninetales, and Flareon in Yellow.
-Additional Comments: Goldeen is an outclassed fish and it has little merit over many of the other Water types in the game. However, it can still get the job done adequately if you are willing to give it a try. It brings the usual benefits of Water types to the team, isn’t too taxing on your TM stash, and is fairly easy to obtain. Overall, Seaking is a fine choice, although there is little reason to use it over its competition unless you think it looks cool or something.

Yellow Farfetch'd

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-Farfetch’d (Yellow) - Low Tier
-Availability: Farfetch’d isn’t available until after you get passed the sleeping Snorlax in Yellow, on routes 12 and 13. It can be obtained as high as level 31, although a level 31 Farfetch’d is quite rare and you may have to settle for level 26.
-Stats: Awful. 65 Attack and 60 Speed are poor, and it is frail with 52/55/58 Defences.
-Movepool: Access to Swords Dance and Agility by level up is pretty cool. Slash is a nice move too, although it comes late and Farfetch’d doesn’t even have a 100% crit rate when using it (although >93% is pretty close to perfect). Farfetch’d’s once famous access to both Cut and Fly is now useless because it comes so late that Cut doesn’t even give access to anything anymore, but at least dropping Cut allows it to run both of its boosting moves at the same time (with Fly for boosted hits and Slash when you don’t want to boost).
-Power: Farfetch’d needs to boost with Swords Dance to sweep, but a Swords Dance boosted Fly is surprisingly strong. Farfetch’d can sweep whole teams quickly using the tactic. However, having to boost every time it faces a team with more than 1 Pokémon is a pain as Farfetch’d doesn’t have the bulk to keep doing it over and over. This is especially true against faster teams, since it may need to use Agility too. Overall, Farfetch’d sweeps are satisfying but they aren’t the most efficient way to go about things.
-Type: Normal/Flying is not a unique combination, but it is a pretty good type to have. You get walled by Rock types, but these are pretty rare when you get Farfetch’d. Rock, Electric and Ice weaknesses aren’t particularly problematic because they are overall rare.
-Match-ups: Koga – You can sweep him in Yellow by setting up on the first Venonat and hitting his team with Fly. Setting up is risky though because Venonat can hit you surprisingly hard with Psychic and can inflict Toxic to wear you down as you set up.
Sabrina – You can set up on Abra but it will Flash you, and a single miss with Fly will likely lead to Farfetch’d fainting.
Blaine – Farfetch’d just doesn’t have the bulk to set up here, especially since its Low speed necessitates the use of Agility. Don’t bother.
Giovanni – You can set up on Dugtrio, but it might Sand Attack you. If it doesn’t, you can blast through a lot of his team. Rhydon can end your sweep though, and even Persian can screw you if it sets up Double Team on the first turn of Fly.
Lorelei – You are weak to Ice, so you aren’t going to do much.
Bruno – In theory, you can hit his Fighting types hard, but the problem is that Onix stops your sweep partway through so you switch out and lose your boosts. Your best bet is to just try hitting without boosting and hope you don’t die. Good luck with that.
Agatha – The interesting thing here is that you can actually set up on the first Gengar because it simply refuses to attack you with Mega Drain (due to resistance), which means all it will do is spam Substitute and Confuse Ray. If you can survive Confuse Ray, you can set up enough to ensure a sweep against her frail team! There are better ways of dealing with her, but Farfetch’d can work with a bit of luck.
Lance – Not worth it. Aerodactyl walls you, the Dragons hit you with Electric and Ice moves, and Gyarados is just too strong.
Blue – The problem here is that it is very difficult to find a safe Pokémon to set up on because all of his Pokémon have something to hit you with. You may be best trying on Exeggutor or Ninetales, but really you should just use something faster and more reliable.
-Additional Comments: Farfetch’d is a fun gimmick, and that’s it. In RB it was actually useful but Yellow nerfed it badly. Boosted experience? Gone. Early and convenient availability? Gone. Access to Cut and Fly? Still true, but now useless because of how late it arrives. Farfetch’d just isn’t worth it in Yellow.

Yellow Growlithe

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-Growlithe (Yellow) - Low Tier
-Availability: Growlithe can only be found on the first floor of the Pokémon Mansion on Cinnabar Island. It can be found as high as level 38, but this is very rare even with the repel trick, so you may have to settle for something more underleveled.
-Stats: Excellent overall. There is little reason not to evolve it straight away, at which point it gets 110 Attack, 80 Special and 95 Speed. With 90/80/80 bulk, Arcanine can take hits well too.
-Movepool: Arcanine requires TM support to work. This was tolerable in Red given how early it arrives, but in Yellow it is much hard to justify saving TMs for it. Dig, for example, it a near requirement on Arcanine, and keeping it for Arcanine can hurt the many things that benefit from it earlier on. Without Dig or Body Slam, Arcanine is stuck with Take Down/Double-Edge and Fire Blast for coverage, and both of those have drawbacks that make relying on them difficult.
-Power: With the right moves, Arcanine is a powerful attacker. Even with just Take Down it can hit somewhat hard. However, if you aren’t using Dig or Body Slam, then you are using moves with recoil and accuracy issues, and all of this can take its toll on Arcanine as it builds up damage, causing you to heal it frequently.
-Type: Fire really isn’t that useful considering how late you get Arcanine. The weaknesses to Water, Ground and Rock are not appreciated, and Fire’s coverage is somewhat poor late-game.
-Match-ups: Sabrina – You can do ok here as you have decent bulk and speed, and you hit her Pokémon hard with physical moves. Take Down recoil (or a miss) may lesve you open to a kill from Alakazam though).
Blaine – If you have Dig then you pretty much win be default, but it’s a mirror match without it.
Giovanni – Ground and Rock weaknesses aren’t fun are they? Persian doesn’t have either though so you can beat that. Dig is useful for Nidoqueen, Nidoking and Rhydon if you have it.
Lorelei – You have a weakness to Water so you are a bit limited. Jynx is beatable.
Bruno – You can’t touch Onix without Dig. The Hitmons are fried by Fire Blast, and Machamp doesn’t have a specific answer to you either.
Agatha – Use Dig if you have it. If you don’t, her Ghosts are going to be tough with Normal immunities and high Specials. Just focus on Golbat and Arbok instead.
Lance – Gyarados has Hydro Pump, Aerodactyl walls you and you aren’t exactly OHKOing the Dragons (one even has BubbleBeam).
Blue – If you have Dig then you can do pretty well, but without it just focus on Alakazam, Ninetales, Flareon and Exeggutor.
-Additional Comments: The transition from Red to Yellow simply involved an availability change for Arcanine, but it proves to have a significant impact on its usefulness. Arcanine’s performance was at its best during the middle of the game, but being locked away on Cinnabar Island causing it to miss out on most of this. Being such a late Pokémon with reliance on such an exclusive TM seals its fate.

I altered the old Growlithe entry to focus on Red only, since the Yellow stuff is no longer required

Red Growlithe

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-Growlithe (Red) - High Tier
-Availability: In RB, it is found on Route 8. It is slightly under-levelled but as long as you teach it the right moves then it catch up pretty quickly by grinding against the wild Pokémon and the trainers along the route.
-Stats: Arcanine has excellent stats. 110 Attack and 95 Speed make it a powerful physical attacker. It has 90 HP, 80 Defence and 80 Special, giving it good bulk and allowing it to use its STAB moves effectively.
-Movepool: Growlithe’s movepool is small overall but it has everything it needs to work. Growlithe’s level up movepool isn’t the greatest, but it starts with Bite, which is decent enough, and it learns Take Down a bit later if you are willing to hold off on evolution (and are willing to risk the recoil and miss chance). It also gets Flamethrower but it comes quite late and it isn’t worth delaying evolution. Arcanine gets Dig from TM, which you’ll need if you want Arcanine to reach its full potential. Body Slam is also helpful but not required (Double-Edge and Take Down are acceptable but inferior alternatives and although they aren’t great moves they are tolerable if you are using Dig as your main attack), and Fire Blast can also be used although it comes late.
-Power: Growlithe isn’t particularly powerful but you can evolve it almost as soon as you get it. Arcanine is a powerhouse, blasting through almost all trainers with ridiculous ease. Pretty much everything is at least 2HKOed, and most regular trainer Pokémon are OHKOed.
-Type: Fire is certainly not the best STAB in the game but you probably won’t be using it throughout most of your playthrough anyway (Fire Blast comes late and Ember is useless). Fire has a few annoying weaknesses but in most cases Arcanine doesn’t care because it kills things so efficiently.
-Match-ups: Erika - Ember is too weak to kill Victreebel and Vileplume quickly but Tangela can be 2HKOed in RB.
Koga – It can sweep through Koga just fine in RB because of Dig. His team isn’t that great and even if you lose you’ll inflict enough damage to fiish off with something else.
Sabrina – No type advantage but you actually do ok here because you have enough bulk to take a hit and you are hitting against the weaker Defence stat.
Blaine – You can sweep with Dig. Ponyta and Growlithe are weak and you should have enough power to take down Rapidash and Arcanine
Giovanni – You should do ok with Dig, and most of the team lacks super-effective moves (Dugtrio has Dig but it can be avoided with a Dig of your own).
Lorelei – You should stay away from her Water types, but Jynx is beatable.
Bruno – You can beat the fighting types as long as you are at a good enough level. You have Dig for Onix.
Agatha – Dig smacks her Ghosts and Arbok around. You can beat Golbat on pure strength alone.
Lance - This isn’t a particularly good match-up. Aerodactyl walls you and Gyarados has Hydro Pump. You can beat the Dragons as long as your level is good enough because they have bad move sets.
Blue – Honestly the only things you’ll have significant trouble beating are Blastoise and Gyarados and Sandslash. You should have a good chance against everything else thanks to stats and move set. Either way, Arcanine will leave its mark here.
-Additional Comments: Arcanine is basically a Charizard clone in the sense that they should be treated in exactly the same way. It is hurt mainly by reliance on TMs, but if you are willing to give them to Growlithe then it is an excellent choice that will help you speed through the game.

[Hemp Man]

"Dig is useful for Nidoqueen, Nidoking and Rhydon if you have it."

Doesnt EQ still hit you even if you are underground? Other than that, I like the Growlithe reviews.

[atsync]

Not in 1st gen. That wasn't a thing until 2nd gen, thank goodness.

[Naix]

So, I finished the next revamp.

Magmar Revamp

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-Magmar (Blue only) - Low Tier

-Availability: Magmar come late in the game, in the basement and top floor of Pokemon Mansion in Cinnabar Island to be specific. At the third floor, the have a one-in-ten chance of appearing, but are only at level 34. While Magmar are level 38 in the basement, they aren't exactly the most common Pokemon there at a 4% encounter rate. Capturing Magmar can be noticeably difficult thanks to their low catch rate.
-Stats: Overall, Magmar's stats are good, but none of them are impressive. Surprisingly, Magmar's Attack is higher than its Special, but it's nothing incredible at a base 95. Another noticeable aspect of Magmar's stats is that its Defense is poor, below that of Primeape and even Goldeen.
-Movepool: When caught, Magmar is likely to know merely Ember and Leer. This means it greatly appreciates TM support almost to the point of necessity, as it doesn't learn a good attack (which in this case is Fire Punch) until level 43. 2 TMs you should have access to by the time you get Magmar are Mega Punch, which can be bought in the Celadon Department Store, and Psychic, which is its best weapon against Rock/Ground-types but is a once-in-the-game TM. Magmar can also learn Submission, but it isn't recommended as it causes recoil.
-Power: Because Magmar's Special is merely average, it won't be doing too much against the several resists it'll encounter soon after being caught.
-Type: Fire is an unfortunate type to have late in the game, as everything at that point in the game either resists Fire-type attacks, hits their users super effectively, or both.

-Match-ups:

--Blaine: Because Magmar resists Fire-type attacks, Blaine will not use any against it, allowing Magmar to take out everything but his Arcanine, as Magmar's mediocre physical bulk will cause it to be worn down. However, Blaine has a strange tendency to use pointless moves like Roar when there isn't any need to, helping Magmar's chances against him.
--Giovanni: Whether Magmar does well against his Rhyhorn and Rhydon or not depends on whether or not it knows Psychic, as the best it can do against him without it is defeating the Nidos. An important thing to remember is that Dugtrio will always beat Magmar regardless of what moves it has.
--Lorelei: Despite Slowbro being the only Pokemon on her team that resists Fire-type attacks, Lapras and occasionally Cloyster can also cause trouble for Magmar. The reason why Dewgong doesn't is because even though it is a Water-type, it doesn't actually know any Water-type moves, though Rest can be a pain if you don't want to waste Fire Blast, but then again, there isn't much in the Pokemon League for Magmar to use Fire Blast against in the first place.
--Bruno: His 2 Onix are much like Giovanni's Rhyhorn and Rhydon: they can comfortably take whatever Magmar throws at it other than Psychic. Speaking of which, Magmar with Psychic almost entirely sweeps Bruno, but it can settle with Fire Blast if it wants, as the two have the same base power after factoring in STAB and type match-ups. Machamp might be able to take a Psychic or Fire Blast thanks to its impressive level as well as Magmar's average Special.
--Agatha: As with several Pokemon, Magmar has trouble against Agatha's Ghost-types without the aid of items due to the fact that its most powerful attack hits them on their very high Special, allowing them to confuse or sleep Magmar before going down. It doesn't help that all of them are faster. Her other 2 Pokemon, Golbat and Arbok, are much easier to deal with thanks to them having mediocre Special as well as (Arbok) being slower than Magmar.
--Lance: Everything on Lance's team resists Fire-type moves, they all know Hyper Beam which hits it hard because of its poor Defense, and he leads the fight with his Gyarados, which happens to know Hydro Pump.
--Rival: Everything Magmar beats one-on-one here can easily be taken out with several other Pokemon, meaning that while it could take out a few of his Pokemon, it isn't too impressive.

-Additional Comments: Magmar is unfortunately a Fire-type who came a bit too late to be useful, as it joins surrounded by Water-types and bosses, almost all of which have favorable outcomes against it. Another thing of note is that it knows only Ember and possibly Leer when its caught, and catching them can be a pain considering the chances of finding them (10% and 4% on the top and bottom floors of Pokemon Mansion, respectively) as well as how resistant they are to being caught.

I also changed around my Electabuzz revamp from earlier in this thread, mainly altering the tone and changing it from "Pokemon who's almost hopelessly outclassed" to "Pokemon who's okay but suffers from competition with other Electric-types". I also changed its tiering to Mid after these changes. Said changes can be found here. With that and a few alterations to the Krabby revamp, specifically some of atsync's notes about it in Yellow as well as a rephrasing of things here and there, and with that I am finally done writing revamps for Pokemon I've recently playtested!

Of course, there are still more entries (such as Sandshrew, Jolteon, Articuno, and Moltres, none of which I'm immediately reserving) that need rewritten, so I'll probably stick around this thread for a while longer to give feedback on other revisions, but I won't be doing any more revamps until I get a few things IRL out of the way.

[Hemp Man]

I thought you used Moltres recently?

I could probably rewrite Moltres and Aritcuno if you guys want.

Edit: To be honest with you, I like the Moltres review on the first page. Articuno needs a rewrite though.

[Naix]

I was originally going to test Moltres, but soon after starting the file I realized I was playing Blue and decided to use Magmar instead as it's exclusive to Blue, rather than Moltres who can be caught in any game.

[Hemp Man]

Well, here is Articuno rewritten. I dont think Moltres needs a rewrite, but if you want me to, I can do it.

Articuno - Top Tier
-Availability: Articuno can be obtained after the 5th gym. Beating Koga enables you to use the Surf HM, where you can go to the Seafoam Island. In the Seafoam Island you must search the cave and use the Strength HM to solve puzzles to get to Articuno. Articuno comes at a high level of 50 and is hard to catch, so make sure to save the game before you fight it and have a ton of Ultra Balls ready.
-Stats: Due to its status as a legendary, Articuno has a huge BST. Most notable is its 125 Special, which allows it to tank Special moves and plow through foes with its STAB Ice moves.
-Movepool: When you encounter it Articuno it has Peck and Ice Beam, and learns Blizzard one level later. While it seems counterproductive to have to have two Ice moves on the same Pokemon, Blizzard's low PP rate means that having Ice Beam as a back-up will be helpful. Peck is weak, but you can always give Articuno the HM02 Fly if you want Physical STAB.
-Power: Articuno's Blizzard is the most powerful Special Attack in the game, and it will dent anything that doesn't resist it
-Type: Ice/Flying is fantastic offensive combo, as only the Water/Rock fossil Pokemon resist that combo (you don't fight those guys in-game anyway).
-Match-ups:
--Sabrina: Articuno has the bulk to take on her Psychics attacks, and Fly hits them on their lower defense stat. Keep in mind though, that Alakazam can abuse the first turn of Fly as a chance to Recover or set up Reflect.
--Blaine: You would think Articuno would be dead weight against a Fire gym, but Articuno is surprisingly useful here. Articuno's high Special means it can actually handle a Fire Blast, and its Blizzards will do a lot to Blaine's Pokemon (remember Fire doesn't resist Ice in RBY).
--Giovanni: His entire team is weak to Blizzard except for Persian in Yellow, who isn't too much of a threat to Articuno.
--Lorelei: If there was an Achilles's heel for Articuno's match-ups, it would be this fight. All of her Pokemon resist Ice, and all of them besides Jynx have the Physical bulk to take Fly.
--Bruno: Fly takes out his Fighting Pokemon easily, while Ice Beam can handle his Onix's.
--Agatha: Articuno doesn't have a type advantage here, but can overwhelm her Pokemon through sheer force alone. Just watch out for Confuse Ray hax.
--Lance: Articuno can easily sweep the Dragons and Aerodactyl due to their weakness to Ice. Gyarados is tougher fight for the legendary bird due to not being weak to Ice, but is still beatable.
--Gary (RB): Venusaur, Exeggutor, Rhydon, Pidgeot and Charizard are all weak to Ice. Arcanine has the type advantage, but his strongest STAB here is the weak Ember. Blastoise, Alakazam and Gyarados are probably Articuno's toughest fight here, but Articuno can still be of help against those three.
--Gary (Y): Sandslash, Alakazam, and Exeggutor are manageable. However, Ninetails can trap you with Fire Spin, Cloyster walls you, and Jolteon's Thunderbolt can hurt once you factor its massive critical hit rate.
-Additional Comments: As you can see, Articuno is a great asset to any team. However you have to deal with the burden of exploring Seafoam Island and spending a lot of time capturing the Pokemon. But if you can get by that, you'll be set for many battles.

[atsync]

Moltres's entry seems to imply that Lorelei's Dewgong, Cloyster and Lapras resist Fire :/

Yeah someone redo Moltres. I don't think it even needs testing. It should be obvious to anyone whose played RBY before that it's terrible.

The Magmar write up is good. Low tier obviously, it's just trash. Of course, now it makes me wonder whether Ponyta is worthy of Mid, even if it could just kill everything with X-Accuracy Horn Drill. I'm not doing any more revamps right now though.

Articuno is good too.

[Hemp Man]

Alright, will do a rewrite of Moltres soon. Agree on it being low tier, although I guess its a good choice if you are at the end of your game and only have 5 members haha.

[Garud]

Originally Posted by Fat Hemp Man

Alright, will do a rewrite of Moltres soon. Agree on it being low tier, although I guess its a good choice if you are at the end of your game and only have 5 members haha.

That's literally all Moltress has going for it. Being level 50 and before the E4 is decent if you need an additional pokemon to take the E4 with. It's typing sucks for the E4 though, what pokemon does it hit SE? Jynx, Exeggutor, Venasaur, and the 3 fighting types Bruno uses.

It does have some Pros to consider though. It's gargantuan stats make it usable for sure, and additionally, Fire Spin can just trap troublesome things until they KO. If you saved Flamethrower/Fire Blast, it can make use of those, in addition to Sky Attack though. If you have a team of 5 and you need an extra member, you can't go wrong with Moltres. If you have a 6th though, then Moltres might be redundant.

That's my 2 cents. Also, soon I may revamp my Rapidash entry, it has a few spelling/typos/unfinished sentences in it, and I'd like to make it cleaner. In addition, maybe we should start QCing the formatting of the entries, so that they all match up to one format.

[TM13IceBeam]

Moltres can't learn Flamethrower. The TM for it doesn't exist >.<

Learning Leer at 51 is the biggest troll for Moltres, when the other two birds learn Blizzard and Thunder at the same level. The ice weakness can be fatal for Moltres if Fire Spin or Fire Blast misses...

[Jangrafess]

I mean I guess you can use the Crystal move tutor as a tradeback but that's not exactly in-game!

[Hemp Man]

Moltres - Low Tier
-Availability: Available through a detour at Victory Road at the end of the game. It comes at the level 50 and is hard to catch, so be sure to have a ton of Ultra Balls and save before you fight the legendary bird.
-Stats: Moltres has one of the best BST's in the game, most notable of its stat is it 100 Base Attack and 125 Special.
-Movepool: When you get it, the only moves it has are Peck and Fire Spin. Peck can be replaced by Fly, and if you kept TM38 you can give Moltres Fire Blast. However Moltres cannot learn Flamethrower, which is an issue as Fire Blast can quickly run out of PP. At Level 55 Moltres learns Agility, allowing you to use the Agility + Fire Spin combo. However, trapping moves are time consuming and have unreliable accuracy.
-Power: Fly off a 100 Base Attack will hurt anything that doesn't resist it, and his Fire Blast is tied with Articuno's Blizzard and Zapdos' Thunder as the most powerful Special move int he game.
-Type: Here is where Moltres falls apart. Its Fire/Flying type doesn't do it many favors. It's typing helps it overwhelm the E4's Fighting and Grass types, but those are minor threats. Not to mention it gives Moltres an unwanted weakness to Water, Ice, Rock, and Electric.
--Lorelei: Moltres is weak to Water and Ice moves, which are omnipresent in this battle. The only notable fight here is Jynx, who despite knowing an Ice move, is weak to Fire Blast.
--Bruno: Fly easily disposes of his Fighting types. While Fire Blast can overwhelm Onix, it is not recommended due to Fire Blast's limited PP, Fire Blast's 15% chance of missing, and the fact that Onix has Rock moves - which Moltres is quadruply weak to.
--Agatha: Much like Articuno, Moltres can easily overwhelm her team through sheer force. Just watch out for Confuse Ray hax.
--Lance: His entire team resists Fire, and in every version he leads off with a Gyarados with STAB Hydro Pump. In R&B, Moltres can spam Fly against the two Dragonair's and hope for a lucky break, but in Yellow all of his Dragons including Dragonite know Super Effective moves. It should be noted that although Aerodactyl resists Fire, its low defenses means that it will take a ton of damage from Fire Blast. Just make sure you don't run out of Fire Blast PP if you dare to challenge Aerodactyl.
--Gary: Moltres walls his Grass types, and it can take on Pidgeot. Moltres can also take a Psychic from Alakazam and hit back with Fly, but Alakazam can use the set up turn of Fly as a chance to set up Reflect or even just Recover. Don't bother fighting his Water Types or Rhydon. In the Yellow version of this fight - Exeggutor, Ninetails/Flareon, and Sandslash are your main targets.
-Additional Comments: Moltres has high stats and comes at Level 50 just like Articuno and Zapdos, so where did it go wrong? Simple, its typing. By the time you get to the E4, Fire/Flying is only good against E4 Pokemon who are not really a big threat, such as Exeggutor. Another problem is that it doesn't get Flamethrower, meaning you'll only have Fire Blast limited PP to take on the E4 with.

[atsync]

Moltres is much better now, good job.

Originally Posted by Fat Organization Member XIV

Uh, not to sound rude, but you do realize that Moltres being hit super-effectively by Ice is just a graphical glitch right. It's because the game only recognized the second type when displaying, but the damage was neutral.

You're wrong actually. Fire doesn't resist Ice in 1st gen, which means that Moltres is weak to Ice.