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Old Jan 2nd, 2013, 12:23:40 AM   #576
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Originally Posted by Fat JSND View Post
I kinda disagree with Flareon on mid, decent stats, slow speed that in the end means jack**** since its quick enough to outspeed what it needs etc.

Maybe for the TM reliance....
Flareon doesn't exactly do well against any boss not named Erika, Sabrina, or Giovanni. It's also let down by its mediocre physical bulk should its opponent withstand a Body Slam.

On a different note, am I the only one who feels iffy about Nidoran (F) in Top? Most of the Pokemon that can be obtained before the first Gym typically learn either a useful non-normal STAB move (RB starters, Yellow Mankey) or a notably powerful attack (Nidoran (M), Rattata) within 5-10 levels of catching it, and Nidoran (F) belongs to neither of the above categories, causing it to (theoretically, as I haven't tested it yet) fall behind in comparison to your other party members until it evolves. Even then, its best move is either Double Kick or Poison Sting, both of which have poor type coverage outside of the former being SE against Rock-types, until it gets Body Slam, which isn't quite as good as her brother's Thrash. Also, while Nidoqueen has superior bulk than Nidoking, I'd prefer taking no damage thanks to OHKOing everything in sight to taking little damage by virtue of good defenses. I will concede that SPOT's (that is, the Nidoran (F) you can get in a trade) advantage of boosted experience is a great help, but in order to get it you need do prevent a Nidoran (M) from evolving until meeting Bill, hampering its potential. Another thing to remember about it is that said trade is only in Red and Blue, and because Nidoran (M) are so uncommon in Blue said trade might as well be exclusive to Red. Because of the factors I mentioned above, I believe Nidoran (F) is more worthy of High or even Mid than Top. I'd like to hear you guys' thoughts on it, though, and I will definitely test it out before completely rewriting the current entry (should that be neccessary).

Speaking of rewrites, just a reminder that if you're confident that a current entry needs changed and you're confident in (and are ready to defend) what content your revision would have in it, nobody's stopping you from rewriting an already-existing entry.
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Old Jan 2nd, 2013, 1:36:23 AM   #577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat JSND View Post
I kinda disagree with Flareon on mid, decent stats, slow speed that in the end means jack**** since its quick enough to outspeed what it needs etc.

Maybe for the TM reliance....
Not even that, it's just that Flareon's Body Slam is unremarkable. Clefable, Dodrio, Farfetch'd, Hitmonlee, Kingler, Persian, Raticate, Snorlax, and Wigglytuff all both hit just as hard or harder with Body Slam and learn other moves. And evem more Pokémon get through mid-game through some other strong (STAB) move. Dig, for instance, or Wartortle/Gyarados's Bubblebeam, or the Psychic types' Confusion.

Flareon's Body Slam gets the job done but it's not special, thus mid-tier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Naix View Post
On a different note, am I the only one who feels iffy about Nidoran (F) in Top? Most of the Pokemon that can be obtained before the first Gym typically learn either a useful non-normal STAB move (RB starters, Yellow Mankey) or a notably powerful attack (Nidoran (M), Rattata) within 5-10 levels of catching it, and Nidoran (F) belongs to neither of the above categories, causing it to (theoretically, as I haven't tested it yet) fall behind in comparison to your other party members until it evolves. Even then, its best move is either Double Kick or Poison Sting, both of which have poor type coverage outside of the former being SE against Rock-types, until it gets Body Slam, which isn't quite as good as her brother's Thrash. Also, while Nidoqueen has superior bulk than Nidoking, I'd prefer taking no damage thanks to OHKOing everything in sight to taking little damage by virtue of good defenses. I will concede that SPOT's (that is, the Nidoran (F) you can get in a trade) advantage of boosted experience is a great help, but in order to get it you need do prevent a Nidoran (M) from evolving until meeting Bill, hampering its potential. Another thing to remember about it is that said trade is only in Red and Blue, and because Nidoran (M) are so uncommon in Blue said trade might as well be exclusive to Red. Because of the factors I mentioned above, I believe Nidoran (F) is more worthy of High or even Mid than Top. I'd like to hear you guys' thoughts on it, though, and I will definitely test it out before completely rewriting the current entry (should that be neccessary).

Speaking of rewrites, just a reminder that if you're confident that a current entry needs changed and you're confident in (and are ready to defend) what content your revision would have in it, nobody's stopping you from rewriting an already-existing entry.
NidoranF's main problem IIRC is it doesn't get Horn Attack. In all other ways she's really similar to NidoranM. The difference in base stats is small--a NidoranF with a high attack DV will have a higher attack than a NidoranM with a low DV. NidoranF shares NidoranM's TM compatibility which is the main reason they're good.

I guess the question is whether Horn Attack is the x factor. Without it NidoranF actually doesn't have much more to offer than Clefairy, to beat that dead horse again.

Speaking of which, I'll go ahead and rewrite it. I'll do another run first just to be sure.
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Old Jan 2nd, 2013, 2:55:34 AM   #578
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I still think both are Top. I really don't like the idea of putting one above the other because both are great choices with their own advantages.

Horn Attack is decent but I don't remember it being as powerful as it first seems. It still struggles to kill sometimes and the damage can pile up, and it doesn't stop Nidoran-M from being underwhelming before the TMs come along, although clearly Nidoran-M outclasses Nidoran-F early on.

Also, don't forget that Nidoqueen and Nidoking have the same Special stat (75), which means that Nidoking's "extra power" only exists when it uses a physical attack (and even then there are very few situations where the extra power would change a 2HKO to a 1HKO). If you end up using mostly special attacks on your Nidoran (Earthquake + special moves or something) then the difference will be almost irrelevent.

One way of looking at it is this: do you want your selected Nidoran to learn Body Slam but are planning to use it alongside something that also wants it (e.g. Venusaur, Pikachu)? If yes, you use Nidoran-F so you can get Body Slam by level up on Nidoqueen and are free to use the TM on Venusaur/whoever. If you don't care about this, use Nidoran-M. Of course, the fact that the encounter rates differ by Red vs. Blue means that Nidoran-F may be a more efficient choice depending on version (the encounter rates are equal in Yellow). Personally, I just take whichever I see first and use that.

@Naix: You think that Nidoqueen's Body Slam "isn't quite as good as her brother's Thrash"? Thrash has 5 extra base power over Body Slam in RBY which is honestly insignificant, and Body Slam has an awesome side effect and doesn't lock into itself (the latter of these advantages isn't that huge though, since playing in Shift mode helps cancel this out and chances are that you were probably going to spam Thrash anyway).
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Old Jan 2nd, 2013, 8:53:48 AM   #579
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I actualy thought that Nidoqueen is better than Nidoking. Body Slam + Surf is crazy good. Yeah, Body Slam Para Chance and non locking is actualy better than Thrash Locking.

Both Nidoran are tbh pretty hard to train early on
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Old Jan 2nd, 2013, 12:38:32 PM   #580
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I dunno, Nidoking gets quite good at Mt. Moon and Nidoqueen can be if she gets Mega Punch (and isn't bad without it). And they both ream the Bug Catchers in Viridian Forest, so being hard to train early on pretty much means Brock + Route 3.

I don't think there's a better Pokémon than NidoranM with its Horn Attack on Route 3. It's currently the strongest move in the game, he can Leer to boost its power, and he has Poison immunity.

For this reason (and because Horn Attack continues to be really good up through where you learn Thrash) I've always considered NidoranM a half-tier higher than NidoranF, though both top tier.

I agree Body Slam is better than Thrash. IMO the confusion is worse than the locking. They're pretty close though, as is everything about Nidoking and Nidoqueen after level 23.
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Old Jan 8th, 2013, 1:23:08 AM   #581
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Since there seems to be a consensus about this, I had a go at redoing Ponyta in Low tier.

Ponyta


Feedback from anyone who has used Ponyta much is welcome.

Last edited by atsync; Jan 19th, 2013 at 4:57:03 PM.
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Old Jan 9th, 2013, 9:11:31 PM   #582
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@atsync
Looks good! As someone who playtested Ponyta but didn't write an entry for it, I don't see anything to be improved upon (for the record, the playtest I'm referring to is the one where I tested Vaporeon and Yellow Bulbasaur). Also, didn't you say earlier in the thread you were testing Venonat? It already has an entry in Low (which I don't think anybody would dispute), but after looking at it I can say it definitely has room for improvement, so might it be possible for you to make a revision for Venonat as well?

Also on the matter of playtesting, I accidentally deleted the save file on my Nidoran-F playtest, but thankfully I already got the information I was looking for. From my experience in addition to feedback from you guys, I will agree that I was wrong and Nidoran-F is indeed worthy of Top. While she doesn't have Horn Attack like her male counterpart, she can still hold her own until she evolves and gains access to Mega Punch, from which point it acts almost exactly like Nidoran-M would. I'll start the playtest over again, but this time with the usual intent of writing/revamping entries. Red Krabby is obviously on this list, and I'm most likely also going to include Ekans (overall pretty short in comparison to other entries) and Abra (Stats and Movepool are pretty bare).
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Old Jan 11th, 2013, 1:00:52 AM   #583
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Venonat


Oddish


Yes, I did say that I wasn't going to do Oddish because the current analysis is accurate, but it's short and it kind of sticks out among the others so I thought since I used it recently I might as well.

Last edited by atsync; Jan 17th, 2013 at 4:34:18 PM.
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Old Jan 11th, 2013, 3:59:31 AM   #584
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Looking at the Ponyta anaylsis, in Yellow version I used a Level 32 Ponyta caught fresh from Cycling Road and swept Erika's entire gym with Ember. So it doesnt need Fire Blast to do well in that battle.
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Old Jan 12th, 2013, 3:29:39 PM   #585
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Awesome oddish review-- it's like, flawless man.
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Old Jan 19th, 2013, 7:53:25 AM   #586
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If you need someone to test something I can test on all three games, R/B will take a bit longer then Yellow though.
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Old Jan 19th, 2013, 3:57:50 PM   #587
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thesynchrohero, Red/Blue Machop's entry is pretty bare, so if you test anything I'd recommend that. Lapras's entry could also use some expansion, but that's just my opinion.

Speaking of tests, I just finished testing Red Krabby, Abra (without trade evolution), and others. Here are entries for those 2:

Krabby (Red)

Abra rewrite

Because of Red Krabby getting an entry, I decided to change some things in Blue/Yellow Krabby's entry. I left in the things I didn't change for convenience's sake
Said improvisions


Of course, if there's something you'd like to point out, then go right ahead.

EDIT: Body Slam has been mentioned, thank you guys for pointing it out!
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Old Jan 19th, 2013, 4:34:13 PM   #588
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I know I have a couple runs already queued and incomplete, but I'd like to run Lapras to see if it really belongs in Low. I suspect that Water and Ice STAB is powerful enough to overcome its low level.

Re: the Krabby rewrites, I think its access to Body Slam should be mentioned. Red Kingler plays similarly to Flareon in that both are liabilities if they don't get Body Slam (or Double-Edge). Flareon has a level/availability advantage whereas Kingler has access to more mid-game toys (Bubblebeam, Ice Beam, Swords Dance, Surf--yeah, they're weak, but they help a little) and a much better end-game.

I think every Water-type is decent. Even if they are slow in the mid-game, the end-game feeds them so many convenient enemies that even a weak or low-level Water can catch up in time to do damage against Lance and Rival.

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Old Jan 19th, 2013, 4:54:55 PM   #589
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With Lapras, is it possible to obtain it as soon as you reach Celadon by buying Fresh Water and entering Saffron early, and then beating Blue in the Silph Co. building? Of course, this would mean having to beat his level 35-40 team with your underleveled team, although it probably isn't that hard. If you can do it this way, then Lapras doesn't have as far to go to catch up.

@ Naix: Red Krabby needs a mention of Body Slam, which is basically the only good attack available to it at that point that it can use well, assuming you haven't used it yet.

Nitpick, but for the Blue battle, Kingler should be able to beat Charizard too.

@ Hemp Man: The Erika entry applies only for Erika, which Yellow Ponyta did not sweep because Weepinbell paralyzed me with Stun Spore and then Wrap-trapped me to death. I think what I wrote for that match-up is perfectly accurate. However, I'll add somewhere that Erika's gym is a great source of experience for Ponyta since that's pretty important.
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Old Jan 20th, 2013, 2:17:49 AM   #590
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Hmmm, I do remember sweeping Erika's entire gym with Ponyta, but maybe I just got lucky then? Well I reread your Ponyta write up, and I think its pretty accurate to my experiences of using him.
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Old Jan 20th, 2013, 3:29:01 AM   #591
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Ponyta comes so late in RB that it should sweep Erika through sheer level advantage. It may be susceptible to luck from Poison/Parawrap though. The rewrite already covers these points though.

I mean, we mention some fights only for completion's sake. Whether Ponyta can beat Erika has little bearing on its overall ranking. Same with Bruno.
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Old Jan 20th, 2013, 4:43:47 AM   #592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Naix View Post
thesynchrohero, Red/Blue Machop's entry is pretty bare, so if you test anything I'd recommend that. Lapras's entry could also use some expansion, but that's just my opinion.

Speaking of tests, I just finished testing Red Krabby, Abra (without trade evolution), and others. Here are entries for those 2:

Krabby (Red)

Abra rewrite

Because of Red Krabby getting an entry, I decided to change some things in Blue/Yellow Krabby's entry. I left in the things I didn't change for convenience's sake
Said improvisions


Of course, if there's something you'd like to point out, then go right ahead.

EDIT: Body Slam has been mentioned, thank you guys for pointing it out!
Kay, I'll try both Pokemon.
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Old Jan 22nd, 2013, 11:45:40 PM   #593
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Here's an entry on one of the other Pokemon I used. As usual, feel free to question/make note of anything that I missed or seems off.
Ekans rewrite

The other Pokemon I used in my latest run (Caterpie, Cubone) I felt had adequate entries, but I will revamp them if asked to do so.

On a different note, I asked Mekkah a while ago about revamping only certain parts of a Pokemon's entry while leaving the rest of it alone, and he said it was okay to do it so long as there aren't any contradictions with the rest of the entries and it isn't obvious that more than one person wrote it (using noticeably more complicated words, for example). Because of getting the OK, I decided to edit the Additional Comments of a few Pokemon. Here they are:

Jigglypuff's AC change

Mankey's AC change

EDIT: While I didn't test that specifically, I can see how Mega Drain Arbok can beat Bruno's Onix. I must've forgotten due to Arbok's forgettable Special and Mega Drain's poor base power. It has now been added. Thank you!
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Old Jan 22nd, 2013, 11:56:26 PM   #594
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Vs Bruno's Onix: Can't Arbok beat them with Mega Drain?
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Old Jan 23rd, 2013, 2:34:06 AM   #595
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Ekans is a slightly worse Growlithe so the two articles should be more alike. (Maybe that means Growlithe needs to be rewritten, though)

Jigglypuff needs Mega Punch early on but in mid-game it can use the low-demand Tri Attack instead of Body Slam. Double-Edge/Mega Punch aren't bad either.

Jigglypuff's Normal STAB and fast exp. track redeem its bad stats—not many Pokémon have a stronger Normal-type move (Flareon and Kingler, for instance, are weaker). The low speed is annoying though.
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Old Jan 23rd, 2013, 7:45:26 PM   #596
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Running Lapras and Wigglytuff, among others. Just reached Sabrina (doing her before Koga). I'm continuing to use my method of giving all my Pokémon equal experience from the time I capture them, plus I'm timing it so that I reach each Gym Leader at a number of experience that corresponds to the levels Nyara gave (i.e. the Leader's lowest-leveled Pokémon) for a medium exp. rate Pokémon caught at the beginning of the game. This is IMO the fairest and most controlled way to test Pokémon.

Anyways, mid-game impressions.

35 Raticate: gave it Dig. It's strong and reliable. Sometimes has trouble powering through the bulkiest enemies because it isn't sturdy.
38 Farfetch'd: gave it Body Slam, Fly. Its low speed is by far its worst problem. Body Slam/Swords Dance/Fly is enough horsepower to kill anything quickly but its speed and frailty sometimes get in the way.
24 Lapras: gave it Surf. I grabbed it almost as early as possible. It's still in its Magikarp phase, though at least it's able to beat weaker enemies (Koffing et al) without help. Maybe it not getting the TMs it wants is making a difference.
37 Wigglytuff: gave it Tri Attack, Bubblebeam, Double-Edge. It's like a worse Farfetch'd—even slower and not quite as strong. The speed is an issue but Wigglytuff can sometimes get out of awkward situations with Sing.
34 Jynx: gave it Ice Beam, Psychic. It's maybe not as strong as Farfetch'd but it still hits really hard, is faster, has better offensive typing, and can Lovely Kiss any otherwise tough enemy. Top tier mid-game Pokémon.
32 Electrode: gave it Thunderbolt, Thunder Wave, Swift. So I wanted to see how mid-game Voltorb does (vs. catching one at level 40 at the Power Plant) and it's not good. Just too weak before it evolves and isn't that strong even as Electrode, though crits are certainly welcome. I occasionally tried Screech/Swift against Electric-type opponents but it's not worth it; NVE Thunderbolt is better. Hoping Electrode improves in the end-game.

I'll do a more thorough run-down of important matchups later.
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Old Jan 23rd, 2013, 8:20:56 PM   #597
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Farfetch'd hit's like a truck with Sword Dance, too bad it can't Hyper Beam, but it rather compensate with Body Slam and Fly (or you can just hits like a truck without setup by just using Slash, when it learn it), apart from Farfetch'd, you don't have more options for Sword Dance before Silph Co, and even then, on Yellow or if you started with Blastoise you don't have better options for it at all, maybe Sandlash and Kingler. Farfetch'd's Slash is still the best in-game move you can get on the game; yeah, Persian learns it, too, but at the level 51, while Farfetch'd does on the level 39.

Wigglytuff by other hand is pretty useful thanks to it's huge TM compatibility, so, if your team is not needing certain TM, you can just give it to him, and he'll do it's job rather well, it's still a worst Farfetch'd/Raticate on the physical side, and a worst Clefable on the special side. You may want to buy it a Counter TM, it does a pretty good job with it. It's at least easier to find than Clefairy. Clefairy should still be Mid Tier, it can beat anything with the correct TM's, and you can pretty much solo the game with a Clefairy without any major trouble, Wigglytuff could do the same, but it's low speed and lowest special bulk stop it to archive it.
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Old Jan 24th, 2013, 12:38:13 AM   #598
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OK, finished the game. Here are thoughts and matchups.

(pre-Elite Four levels)

47 Raticate: Same as always: a good early-game Digger with a sweet STAB level-up move in Hyper Fang. Gets weaker as the game goes on. Mid-tier.
50 Wigglytuff: Consistent mid-game damage. A bit stronger than Raticate (but can't Dig). Can't do anything special against the Elite Four. Mind that I only gave it Tri Attack (/Double-Edge) and Bubblebeam. Mid-tier; I want to see what it's like if it gets Body Slam and Psychic.
53 Farfetch'd: Right after it gets Slash is Farfetch'd's best moment (late mid-game/early end-game). It's so strong. Farfetch'd still moves second a bit much for my tastes but its sheer power and ability to set up merit high tier.
45 Electrode: Its main purpose is to beat Water and Flying Pokémon in the Elite Four. And it does this job well, at the price of being an easily-stopped Pokémon in other circumstances. Electrode has no coverage and isn't strong enough to bulldoze Grass, Electric, Ground, or otherwise bulky enemies. Next run I'll pick up the level 42 Electrode in the Power Plant to see how big an end-game difference it makes. If you catch Voltorb before Rock Tunnel though, it's low-tier (but on the high end).
51 Jynx: I guess it's a tad dependent on TMs, though it gets Ice Punch by level-up and only needs to choose one of Ice Beam and Psychic (probably Psychic) to work. Or Bubblebeam. But give it its toys and it's an amazing Pokémon, on par or better than the top tiers during the parts of the game where it's available. It's literally good against everything. Top-tier.
40 Lapras: The level deficit really shows. Like Electrode it's just not strong and bulky/fast enemies cause it problems. Unlike Electrode it has coverage and access to lots of TMs—potentially the right cocktail could cause damage. But the payoff for this late-game Magikarp isn't enough, so it's probably low-tier (but on the high end).

Interesting/important matchups:
Misty: Should be noted that Raticate and (especially) (Mega Punch) Wigglytuff do pretty well against Starmie.
Sabrina: Jynx is the only Pokémon who can solo her consistently thanks to Lovely Kiss. Farfetch'd wins with luck; its best chance is to let someone else beat Kadabra and then switch in on Mr. Mime to set up Swords Dance. Wigglytuff and Raticate can do good damage too. Electrode's damage output is too low and Lapras is still too weak.
Blaine: Farfetch'd's Slash is ridiculous. Jynx still does really well here, a testament to bad AI and good Lovely Kiss.
Giovanni: Farfetch'd can actually set up on Rhyhorn to sweep with Body Slam. Slash isn't as bad as it sounds on Rhyhorn either. Electrode has the unusual distinction of having an advantageous matchup against Dugtrio, 3HKOing it with Swift, usually surviving one Dig, and hitting Dugtrio while it's Digging. I was able to defeat Dugtrio, Nidoqueen, and Nidoking in succession with Electrode.
Lorelei: My Lapras was able to Thunder down individual enemies but wasn't able to beat more than one at a time. Electrode shone here.
Lance: Lapras couldn't sweep but having a guaranteed OHKO on Dragonite is gravy.
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Old Jan 24th, 2013, 12:43:00 AM   #599
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@Longfellow
I wouldn't exactly compare Ekans to Growlithe, as while they're both dependent on Dig, Ekans is noticeably more so as its base Attack is easily less than Growlithe's. Also, Ekans has to wait before it can evolve or learn Dig, while Growlithe can do both almost immediately after obtaining it.
In my opinion, a more adequate comparison for Arbok would be Butterfree. The reason for this is because they're early-game Pokemon held back by their weak starts, base 80 attacking stats, and lack of (good) STAB. They're also reliant on TMs to do well later on in the game. Of course, Butterfree does better against Poison-types and Rock-types thanks to its access to Psybeam by level up, but they do similarly otherwise.

Also, I get what you did with the whole "equal exp. across the board" thing, but I'm not seeing a person casually playing through a Pokemon game doing something like that. While I (and most likely others) appreciate what you did, I think a more realistic (and relevant) scenario would be to use every Pokemon at an equal level and note how much effort it takes them to catch up with the rest of the party (unless of course it's Dugtrio, a starter, or something along those lines), because that's what a casual player's most likely going to do when playing the game.

Finally, I don't mean to pry, but didn't you say earlier in this thread you were going to rewrite Clefairy's entry? You can keep the availability and movepool sections and revamp the rest if you want. I was told it would be okay to do that, so long as nothing conflicts with what was already written or the wording isn't drastically different.
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Old Jan 24th, 2013, 3:14:51 AM   #600
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@Naix
Growlithe comes at a lower level (relative to where you are in the game) and grows more slowly than Ekans so the difference in stats is less than it seems. They do similar damage the same way that Nidoking and Nidoqueen do similar damage.

I know a casual player won't play like that, but it's a good way to strictly compare Pokémon, which is what we are doing. I'm just trying to be precise and I want to be clear exactly what I'm doing so nobody's surprised when I say that Farfetch'd is extremely powerful or something.

Anyway I've been slow about rewriting Clefairy due to being busy/lazy, so I'll take your kick in my butt and write it now. Also featuring Farfetch'd.

Farfetch'd rewrite


Clefairy rewrite


Edits for clarifying/using words right/etc.

Last edited by Longfellow; Jan 24th, 2013 at 5:47:11 PM.
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Closed Thread Smogon Community > Pokémon > Orange Islands

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