Pokemon RBY In-game Tiers - Mark II - Page 28

neilymon · Feb 22nd, 2013, 10:51:08 AM

An excellent post was made in the old RBY tiers thread about which Pokemon should be Top Tier:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...8&postcount=29

This guy has it spot on. Squirtle, Charmander, Nidos, and Sandshrew can all solo the game. Granted, they all require X Accuracy (and later X Speed) to OHKO their opponents, but they're all bulky enough to set up on opponents - so it's not like you have to get lucky to do this. Seel (specifically, the traded one) gets Top Tier as well despite being a late add - because it levels up so quickly, and is also bulky enough to set up and Horn Drill the E4. Finally, Zapdos gets top tier because it smashes the E4 with Thunderbolt.

Compare that to our top tier here:
Abra - Only belongs in the top tier if you can trade it to become Alakazam (many of us can't or don't bother), and even then it should be more specifically the Abra in Goldenrod (EDIT: Celadon), since it only needs to gain one level. Getting an Alakazam in Goldenrod (EDIT: Celadon) makes the rest of the game extremely easy, but it's not like it's any "better" at soloing the E4 than the guys above. I'd go with Abra (with trade) in Top Tier, Abra (no trade) at the top of the High Tier.

Articuno - Significantly more annoying to catch than Zapdos, and it doesn't solo the E4 (Lorelei and Gary, esp in Y). Yeah, it's good against the gyms, but that seems like a poor reason to put it in the Top Tier. This is another Pokemon that belongs near the top of the High Tier.

Bulbasaur - This is a travesty. Every game has one starter that is weaker than the others, and frankly it's more fun to start with that one since it provides more of a "challenge." (not really in RB) Bulbasaur is the obvious choice - he's great in the beginning, but then he can't handle Sabrina and Blaine without help; at the end, even an overleveled Venusaur struggles against Lorelei, Agatha, and Gary. At best, he belongs in the middle of the High Tier.

Diglett - I'll make this short: Ground STAB is a very nice thing to have in this game, but at the end of the game he's definitely outclassed by Sandslash. The big difference is that his poor defense makes it impossible for him to set up for OHKOs. This means he struggles against most of the E4 and Gary, something that is decidedly untrue for Sandlash. This guy belongs near the top of the High Tier.

Only Sandshrew is missing from the Top Tier, and he belongs there for all the reasons that Dugtrio does except that he's much better at the end of the game.

Summary:
1) Move Sandshrew to the Top Tier
2) Move Abra (no trade), Dugtrio, and Articuno to the top of the High Tier
3) Move Bulbasaur to the middle of the High Tier
4) If you're willing to create a separate entry for Abra (trade), then it justifiably belongs in the Top Tier.

Aside: Needless to say, only RB Squirtle and Charmander belong in the Top Tier.
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EDIT
It's come to my attention that X-items are not allowed for consideration of tiering. I don't agree with this: OHKO Pokemon that are bulky enough to set up with X Speed and X Accuracy deserve to be in the highest tier because they win the game as efficiently as possible. It's not like you need to spend extra time (i.e. overleveling Pokemon) and you obviously have plenty of money to buy the items by the time you actually need them (i.e. Elite Four and Gary). Stupid arguments like "X Items can make any Pokemon good enough" are garbage because most Pokemon aren't bulky enough to set up before they get KOed. The idea is to take luck out of the picture as much as possible - and Top Tier Pokemon consistently set up with X Speed and X Accuracy before OHKOing the entire opposing team. Besides, they're good enough to STAB everything before the E4 and Gary - so they're High Tier even before considering OHKOs.

This should be the definition of Top Tier: Pokemon that can consistently win the game without support from any other Pokemon (and without going out of your way to level up). This should be the definition of High Tier: Pokemon that can consistently defeat the vast majority of opponents, but require help from other Pokemon for specific matchups. You need a team of 2-4 High Tier Pokemon to beat the game, or you can just use a Top Tier Pokemon and five Magikarps.

Nevertheless, if those are the thread rules, then Sandshrew is probably out of the Top Tier and into the top of the High Tier. He still belongs above Dugtrio, because of his superior Attack and Defense. Seel stays in the Top Tier because it crushes the last 25% of the game with STAB Surf and Blizzard. Abra (no trade) is probably a Top Tier under these conditions because Kadabra is excellent against everything beside Lance. Articuno still belongs in the High Tier because it's strictly inferior to Zapdos. Bulbasaur also belongs in the High Tier because it's strictly inferior to the other two starters.

Hemp Man · Feb 22nd, 2013, 11:42:07 AM

"Getting an Alakazam in Goldenrod makes the rest of the game extremely easy, but it's not like it's any "better" at soloing the E4 than the guys above. I'd go with Abra (with trade) in Top Tier, Abra (no trade) at the top of the High Tier."
Goldenrod is in GSC, not RBY.

Wait, Bulbasaur for high tier because it struggles with a few boss trainers, but Sandslash for top tier? I would like to see Sandslash at an average level solo Misty, Erika, and Lorelei. You mention X-items, but I can't buy into the idea of setting up 2 X-items on Dewgong's face. Although I will test it out if you want me too.

As far as Articuno not being able to fully sweep the E4, neither can Zapdos. Articuno sweeps Bruno, where as Zapdos is embarrassingly walled by Onix. Nothing on Gary's team walls Articuno (except MAYBE Cloyster in Yellow), but Rhydon (RB) or his Electric type (Y) resist Zapdos's best STABs.

Longfellow · Feb 22nd, 2013, 12:23:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Hemp Man

Is Kadabra even that good against Misty? I mean, Starmie does resist Confusion after all.

Thunder Wave / Seismic Toss isn't bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Chou Toshio

abra / grass-type / charmander are gonna need grinding around this area anyway to catch up to the rest of the team; I just suggested up one method to do it that doesn't take millions of battles against wild Pokemon

I guess that works, but Abra / Grass-type don't actually need much training. With Abra, just teach it Seismic Toss (and Thunder Wave) and choose your fights carefully. It beats more Pokémon than you'd think. With the Grass, just wait till S.S. Anne/Rock Tunnel.

neilymon · Feb 22nd, 2013, 1:35:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Hemp Man

"Getting an Alakazam in Goldenrod makes the rest of the game extremely easy, but it's not like it's any "better" at soloing the E4 than the guys above. I'd go with Abra (with trade) in Top Tier, Abra (no trade) at the top of the High Tier."
Goldenrod is in GSC, not RBY.

whoops. i've been playing wayyyy too much GSC recently. thanks for the correction.

Quote:

Wait, Bulbasaur for high tier because it struggles with a few boss trainers, but Sandslash for top tier? I would like to see Sandslash at an average level solo Misty, Erika, and Lorelei. You mention X-items, but I can't buy into the idea of setting up 2 X-items on Dewgong's face. Although I will test it out if you want me too.

Sandshrew is only L12 when you can first get it. There's no way to defeat Misty without significant leveling. On the other hand, if you wait till Vermilion City to catch Sandshrew, it's L15. Give it two Rare Candies (or just manually level it up) to learn Slash, and it should crush everything until you can get Dig after talking to Bill. I'm going to go see if I can beat Misty after I get a Digging Sandslash.

Quote:

As far as Articuno not being able to fully sweep the E4, neither can Zapdos. Articuno sweeps Bruno, where as Zapdos is embarrassingly walled by Onix. Nothing on Gary's team walls Articuno (except MAYBE Cloyster in Yellow), but Rhydon (RB) or his Electric type (Y) resist Zapdos's best STABs.

This is a fair point. I suppose it knocks Zapdos down a peg, so he and Articuno should be around the same tier (bottom of Top or top of High).

Chou Toshio · Feb 22nd, 2013, 1:54:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

No, but if my assumption is correct, I'm pretty sure you're still supposed to use your grass-type to beat Starmie. Having free EXP from leading/switching against Staryu repeatedly is fast enough to grind it.

This exactly. abra/charmander don't have to contribute to beating Misty, because your grass type will eventually overcome both staryu and starmie of its own accord. Even the weakest of them, Oddish, walks through both with ease once it hits level 18 (by which time, you'll have gotten Charmeleon or Kadabra).

Kadabra/Charmeleon can just sit back and soak up the EXP. (I'd split Starmie's EXP to them too)

Longfellow · Feb 22nd, 2013, 2:01:37 PM

The assumption for these tier lists is that you're running a team of 4-6 Pokémon. That Zapdos can't beat Bruno quickly (though it still can, though may need an Ether/Full Restore or two) isn't really a black mark because any other Pokémon can beat him.

The point of listing the Gym Leaders / Elite Four is the idea that hard battles affect tier placement more than easy ones. Not all bosses are made equal though. Bruno and Blaine matter less than Cerulean Rival and post-Giovanni Rival, despite that we don't list those battles in our analyses.

I don't think Digging Sandslash can beat Starmie without para support from another Pokémon.

neilymon · Feb 22nd, 2013, 5:15:57 PM

Yeah, I just played this out. Digging Sandslash can't beat Starmie on its own without additional leveling. It additionally struggles against Erika and Lorelei, as observed earlier.

I think all that pushes Sandshrew down to the High Tier, where it's currently listed. Here's my main question: does Diglett really deserve to be in Top Tier above it?

Basically the only arguments for Diglett over Sandshrew are:
1) Dugtrio can be caught as high as Lv31; it immediately beats Starmie and only needs four levels to get Slash. However, finding Dugtrio is fairly time-consuming.
2) Diglett learns Dig on its own, saving the TM (two if you count Earthquake).
3) It's significantly faster.
4) It's available in Red (lol).

Are these good enough reasons to take it over Sandshrew? After Misty, I can catch Sandshrew at Lv15 and teach it Dig immediately. Roll through Surge, where it learns Slash at Lv17, then Slash your way to Lv22, where it evolves; Sandslash gets 100% Critical Hit on Slash.

Slash/Dig OHKO or 2HKOs almost everything going off its superb Atk, but unlike Dugtrio, Sandslash retains late game value because it survives against things it can't OHKO. This also means it can setup Fissure against the Elite Four (except Lorelei) and Rival. This last part elevates it above Dugtrio for me - although obviously it doesn't matter if you don't intend on using Fissure and strictly stick to good matchups.

Random aside: Apropos of nothing, Sandshrew is an essential component of a Pokemon Blue/Yellow speedrun since you can catch one on your way to Cerulean and it learns Cut and Strength. Not sure what serves this role for a Pokemon Red speedrun.

Chou Toshio · Feb 22nd, 2013, 5:36:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat neilymon

Basically the only arguments for Diglett over Sandshrew are:
1) Dugtrio can be caught as high as Lv31; it immediately beats Starmie and only needs four levels to get Slash. However, finding Dugtrio is fairly time-consuming.
2) Diglett learns Dig on its own, saving the TM (two if you count Earthquake).
3) It's significantly faster.

This already makes it WAY better than Shrew. Dig is a hugely useful TM. A difference of 15 levels is tremendous; and dugtrio is easy to find with Repels.

Also, Farfetch'd is the best Red HM slave (the best Blue one too). Cut + Fly is much more useful than Cut + Strength. (Cut is useless by the time you get Strength, where as Cut + Fly get alot of use together).

Alice in Strings · Feb 22nd, 2013, 7:29:03 PM

>Worst starter is Bulbasaur
>implying that Charmander is even relevent in the late-game

Charmander is the weakest Starter because the Charmeleon stage is terrible (lol 65 Special Ember until evolution) and Fire in general is terrible in RBY. You say that Bulbasaur has trouble with Lorelei (it really doesn't) but Charmander's in even worse shape because it dies to Water attacks with its fairly mediocre Special. Bruno's Machamp has Rock Slide iirc, and Lance's entire team shits all over Charizard.

Bulbasaur gets Critical Leaf, Body Slam, Leech Seed, the three Powders, and has the bulk to take on Lorelei's Pokemon. Obviously Agatha's a problem thanks to her POISON type team, but Venusaur kills Lance because lolAI and Gary's Gyarados, Exeggutor, and Rhydon are all killed by it.

Dude, what have you been smoking?

I might as well point this out right now: Sandslash doesn't get a Ground type move by level up, meaning it's HEAVILY TM reliant. Like...it can't do anything unless it gets those TMs it really wants. Those TMs happen to be very high demand ones at that. No way is Sandslash Top Tier material at all. I'd put it in Mid at best because its slow and takes Special Attacks like a wet paper bag, significantly hindering it in this game filled with Special Attackers. Blaine's Arcanine murders it with Fire Blast and also outspeeds it, for example.

Hemp Man · Feb 22nd, 2013, 7:40:40 PM

Machamp has Rock Slide in GSC, in RBY only Bruno's Onix has Rock moves.

When I used Venusaur against Lorelei Razor Leaf swept Dewgong, Slowbro, and Cloyster. Lapras was capable of surviving Razor Leaf, and you really shouldn't bother using Venusaur against a Jynx.

Also, speaking of Sandslash, I may be wrong, but wasn't Mekkah himself going to rewrite it?

Longfellow · Feb 22nd, 2013, 8:05:56 PM

I also don't think Charmander should be top tier. Just thought Bulbasaur would be an easier case to make.

It's tricky to compare Charmander to Bulbasaur. Charmander is much better early-game in every way except for the Brock/Misty fights and can be better mid-game if it gets Dig. However, the TM reliance is bad and the alternative Mega Punch/Ember Charmander is mediocre—still better than pre-Razor Leaf Bulbasaur, but a lot worse after Razor Leaf. As for the Elite Four, Bulbasaur's better against Lorelei (note also that her Ice attacks are SE against Charizard) and Lance whereas Charmander's better against Agatha and Rival.

neilymon · Feb 22nd, 2013, 9:26:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

Charmander is the weakest Starter because the Charmeleon stage is terrible (lol 65 Special Ember until evolution) and Fire in general is terrible in RBY. You say that Bulbasaur has trouble with Lorelei (it really doesn't) but Charmander's in even worse shape because it dies to Water attacks with its fairly mediocre Special. Bruno's Machamp has Rock Slide iirc, and Lance's entire team shits all over Charizard.
Bulbasaur gets Critical Leaf, Body Slam, Leech Seed, the three Powders, and has the bulk to take on Lorelei's Pokemon. Obviously Agatha's a problem thanks to her POISON type team, but Venusaur kills Lance because lolAI and Gary's Gyarados, Exeggutor, and Rhydon are all killed by it.
Dude, what have you been smoking?

Look, you obviously know what you're talking about. My only experience using Charizard is in solo runs, where he was around Lv49 (without grinding) and singlehandedly beat the first three E4 - he was able to set up X Accuracy against Lorelei and then Fissure everyone. However, as you might expect, it took a decent amount of leveling up before he could take a Hydro Pump from Gyarados and kill it with 2x Slash. I should mention that Charmander got the Dig TM, which everyone seems to have a problem with here (unless you're teaching it to a Ground-type, why wouldn't you give it to your starter?).

Obviously if you're not using X items then it's going to die against Lorelei, and either way it certainly struggles against Lance without support (or just fighting him repeatedly until Hydro Pump misses, lol). I suppose that's not very different from Venusaur, who struggles against Agatha and can't take out Lorelei (Jynx) or Rival by itself either. To me, Charizard gets the upper hand because he can Fissure everybody but Lance, while Venusaur needs help against a larger number of opponents. But either way, you'll need support, so these two are a lot closer to each other than they are to Blastoise. Bottom of Top Tier, then.

Quote:

I might as well point this out right now: Sandslash doesn't get a Ground type move by level up, meaning it's HEAVILY TM reliant. Like...it can't do anything unless it gets those TMs it really wants. Those TMs happen to be very high demand ones at that. No way is Sandslash Top Tier material at all. I'd put it in Mid at best because its slow and takes Special Attacks like a wet paper bag, significantly hindering it in this game filled with Special Attackers. Blaine's Arcanine murders it with Fire Blast and also outspeeds it, for example.

Again, I generally trust your opinion, but seriously - who's a better Dig user than Sandshrew? Who would you rather teach it (or Earthquake) to? In a solo run with Sandshrew, I never once had it die to a Special Attack before I KOed the opponent (before Lance, at least). I left Erika and Sabrina for last, of course, but he still got the job done.

In a lower leveled team, I guess Dugtrio is better earlier because it's faster, but it's just as fragile as Sandslash in the late game and gets absolutely annihilated by Physical moves. It has zero chance of setting up X Accuracy and therefore can't Fissure nearly as many things as Sandslash can. But if we're hating on Sandshrew for relying on TMs and completely ruling out X items, then I guess Dugtrio wins by default. But it doesn't seem Top Tier to me because guys like Blastoise, Alakazam, Zapdos are just better.

Alice in Strings · Feb 22nd, 2013, 9:43:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat neilymon

Look, you obviously know what you're talking about. My only experience using Charizard is in solo runs, where he was around Lv49 (without grinding) and singlehandedly beat the first three E4 - he was able to set up X Accuracy against Lorelei and then Fissure everyone. However, as you might expect, it took a decent amount of leveling up before he could take a Hydro Pump from Gyarados and kill it with 2x Slash. I should mention that Charmander got the Dig TM, which everyone seems to have a problem with here (unless you're teaching it to a Ground-type, why wouldn't you give it to your starter?).

Obviously if you're not using X items then it's going to die against Lorelei, and either way it certainly struggles against Lance without support (or just fighting him repeatedly until Hydro Pump misses, lol). I suppose that's not very different from Venusaur, who struggles against Agatha and can't take out Lorelei (Jynx) or Rival by itself either. To me, Charizard gets the upper hand because he can Fissure everybody but Lance, while Venusaur needs help against a larger number of opponents. But either way, you'll need support, so these two are a lot closer to each other than they are to Blastoise. Bottom of Top Tier, then.

Again, I generally trust your opinion, but seriously - who's a better Dig user than Sandshrew? Who would you rather teach it (or Earthquake) to? In a solo run with Sandshrew, I never once had it die to a Special Attack before I KOed the opponent (before the E4, at least). I left Erika and Sabrina for last, of course, but he still got the job done.

In a lower leveled team, I guess Dugtrio is better earlier because it's faster, but it's just as fragile as Sandslash in the late game and gets absolutely pounded by Physical moves. It has zero chance of setting up X Accuracy and therefore can't Fissure nearly as many things as Sandslash can. But if we're hating on Sandshrew for relying on TMs and completely ruling out X items, then I guess Dugtrio wins by default. But it doesn't seem Top Tier to me because guys like Blastoise, Alakazam, Zapdos are just better.

Why are we using the argument "X Accuracy is awesome" If that were the case, then stuff like Kingler would be Top Tier because it gets an OHKO move by level up! We have already said that OHKO moves are unreliable, and using the X Accuracy gimmick is not only costly, but tedious and not useful for an in-game run.

Sandslash gets slaughtered because it's slow. Dugtrio beats out Sandslash because it's friggen FAST. It's faster than everything you'll be fighting bar Alakazam and Jynx, for crying out loud. I agree, it probably doesn't belong in Top Tier either because it's so god forsakenly frail, but if your big argument is "well Sandslash Fissures well.

Third point. Why are you bringing up the "I can solo the game with X Pokemon so it has to be Top Tier" argument? We just had this discussion a single page ago. It's possible to solo the game with pretty much everything. Heck, my first playthrough was using a Level 96 Blastoise to trounce the E4. The point of "I can solo

As for who I'd teach Dig to...lesse, I have Charmeleon, Raticate, Geodude, Onix, Paras (though...its Paras?), Growlithe, Mankey, Ekans, Ninetales, . Charmeleon practically needs Dig to be usable until it evolves, and everyone else appreciates the coverage very much. Frankly, I think Raticate would LOVE having a 100BP Ground type move to pick on the Gastly line and Fire types. So yes, Sandslash isn't the only thing that would really appreciate Dig.

Longfellow · Feb 23rd, 2013, 2:23:27 AM

Let's not raise our voices.

It is assumed that we do not use the X Accuracy/OHKO combo. I think we talked about that a couple pages back.

It would be nice if the first post explained just what kind of run we're talking about. It is true that Sandshrew is quite good at solo runs (the question, of course, isn't whether you can do it but how easy/fast you are), and it is also true that the X Accuracy trick makes Charmander one of the best Pokémon in the game to solo with (not that much slower than Squirtle, actually). But we are assuming teams of 4-6 where the level scales at about the same pace as the Gym Leaders.

Regarding Dig, TM reliance is always a problem even if you are the best user of said TM.

Hemp Man · Feb 23rd, 2013, 2:54:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Longfellow

I also don't think Charmander should be top tier. Just thought Bulbasaur would be an easier case to make.

It's tricky to compare Charmander to Bulbasaur. Charmander is much better early-game in every way except for the Brock/Misty fights and can be better mid-game if it gets Dig. However, the TM reliance is bad and the alternative Mega Punch/Ember Charmander is mediocre—still better than pre-Razor Leaf Bulbasaur, but a lot worse after Razor Leaf. As for the Elite Four, Bulbasaur's better against Lorelei (note also that her Ice attacks are SE against Charizard) and Lance whereas Charmander's better against Agatha and Rival.

If we are comparing Bulbasaur to Charmander, then I wouldn't knock Charmander points for being dependent TM dependent. Venusaur needs Body Slam or something of that equivlent to be effective on certain gyms (try beating Erika with a STAB Grass move and you'll see what I mean).

Funny thing is, earlier game Charmander does better against trainers (i.e. Bug Trainers) while Bulbasaur faires better against gym leaders. Yet, later gym leaders such as Sabrina and Blaine are where Charmander performs better, but Bulbasaur performs better against the omnipresent water trainers in the later portions.

neilymon · Feb 23rd, 2013, 3:08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Longfellow

Let's not raise our voices.

It is assumed that we do not use the X Accuracy/OHKO combo. I think we talked about that a couple pages back.

It would be nice if the first post explained just what kind of run we're talking about. It is true that Sandshrew is quite good at solo runs (the question, of course, isn't whether you can do it but how easy/fast you are), and it is also true that the X Accuracy trick makes Charmander one of the best Pokémon in the game to solo with (not that much slower than Squirtle, actually). But we are assuming teams of 4-6 where the level scales at about the same pace as the Gym Leaders.

Regarding Dig, TM reliance is always a problem even if you are the best user of said TM.

Fair enough. I'll leave out OHKOs from now on (see my initial post on this page to see why I vehemently disagree with that) and I'll count TM reliance against Pokemon.

Under these stipulations, both Wartortle and Charmander struggle mightily for long periods; the former greatly benefits from Ice Beam/Blizzard while the latter is very dependent on Dig. Abra (trade) probably moves to the top of the Top Tier because STAB Psychic is just so stupidly good.

I guess Diglett is Top Tier simply because STAB Dig is so good and Diglett is the only one who learns it (Earthquake too). IMHO it's really only Top Tier if you catch a Dugtrio so you can avoid having to level up 10+ levels just to get Slash.

I'm still unconvinced that Abra (no trade) is better than Mr. Mime - the latter levels up so quickly thanks to being traded, but it requires the Psychic TM so I suppose that makes it impossible to rank it ahead of Abra. I'll try Kadabra in my next playthrough and see if it comes relatively close to Alakazam's level of performance.

In the meantime, I'd like to see if Bellsprout may be deserving of a spot in the High Tier. He'll be in my team during the next playthrough.

Naix · Feb 23rd, 2013, 3:42:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat neilymon

I'm still unconvinced that Abra (no trade) is better than Mr. Mime - the latter levels up so quickly thanks to being traded, but it requires the Psychic TM so I suppose that makes it impossible to rank it ahead of Abra. I'll try Kadabra in my next playthrough and see if it comes relatively close to Alakazam's level of performance.

In my most recent playtest, I happened to use Abra without trades and I can say without a doubt that Kadabra is better than Mr. Mime. Keep in mind that in Red and Blue Abra is the Pokemon you need to trade in order to get Mr. Mime, meaning that (provided you're playing Red or Blue) you'd need to catch an Abra in either situation. Another thing to remember that Mr. Mime's most powerful damaging move (provided it isn't given any TMs) is Confusion, meaning that unlike Kadabra or even Hypno, the both of whom learn Psychic naturally (albeit at level 38), Mr. Mime NEEDS TM support in the form of either Thunderbolt or Psychic in order to do well in the game's later stages. Of course, I'm not downplaying Mr. Mime's passable stats (even if they are the lowest of all the fully evolved Psychic-types in the game when it comes to combined Speed and Special) or the boosted experience it gets, I'm just stating Kadabra's advantages over Mr. Mime as reasoning why I consider it to be superior.

Another thing I'd like to mention is that while Kadabra's stats are indeed inferior to Alakazam's, the differences between them are very minor; the drop in Speed only comes into play against bosses that have particularly fast Pokemon such as Giovanni or Agatha, and there's no way anybody can consider base 120 Special to be anything less than great, especially in RBY. For the latter, there are only 7 Pokemon in RBY whose base Special is higher than Kadabra, and 4 of those 7 are legendaries (for reference, the other 3 are Exeggutor, Gengar, and Alakazam). This means that the only times the difference between Kadabra and Alakazam is noticeable would be when staring down bosses or fellow Psychic-types.

Longfellow · Feb 23rd, 2013, 3:59:19 AM

Posting to agree. Don't be fooled by Kadabra being not fully evolved—it is by far the best mid-game Pokémon. Besides maybe Dugtrio.

Mr. Mime does get close-ish due to the outsider bonus though. He is always a bit weaker and a bit sturdier than Kadabra. Kadabra's total unreliance on TMs and use of Recover late-game make big differences though.

Trivia: it is most experience-efficient for Mr. Mime if Abra is trained to level 14 before trading.

atsync · Feb 24th, 2013, 3:43:28 AM

Growlithe (Red)

-Growlithe (Red) - Mid Tier
-Availability: In RB, it is found on Route 8. It is underlevelled, although it can catch up using Dig's supereffective coverage against some of the other Pokemon on the route.
-Stats: Arcanine has excellent stats. 110 Attack and 95 Speed make it a powerful physical attacker. It has 90 HP, 80 Defence and 80 Special, giving it good bulk and allowing it to use Fire Blast effectively.
-Movepool: Growlithe’s movepool is small overall. Growlithe’s level up movepool isn’t the greatest, but it starts with Bite, which is ok. It also gets Flamethrower but it comes far too late and it isn’t worth delaying evolution. Arcanine gets Dig from TM, which you’ll need if you want Arcanine to reach its full potential. Body Slam is also helpful but not required (Double-Edge and Take Down are acceptable but inferior alternatives and although they aren’t great moves they are tolerable if you are using Dig as your main attack), and Fire Blast can also be used although it comes late.
-Power: Arcanine is a powerhouse, blasting through almost all trainers with ridiculous ease. Pretty much everything is at least 2HKOed, and most regular trainer Pokémon are OHKOed. Of course, this is assuming it gets the moves it wants (Dig mainly). Without Dig it is much less powerful.
-Type: Fire is certainly not the best STAB in the game but you probably won’t be using it throughout most of your playthrough anyway (Fire Blast comes late and Ember is nearly useless). Fire has some bad weaknesses too, although it should be said that with the right moves you'll often avoid taking damage anyway.
-Match-ups: Erika - Ember is too weak to kill Victreebel and Vileplume quickly but Tangela (who has a terrible moveset) can be 2HKOed. Grass resistance also gives Arcanine a good shot at contributing here, and the fact that none of her Pokemon have Stun Spore in Red makes this easier.
Koga – It can sweep through Koga just fine in Red with Dig. His team isn’t that great and even if you lose you’ll inflict enough damage to finish him off with something else.
Sabrina – No type advantage but you actually do ok here because you have enough bulk to take a hit and you are hitting against the weaker Defence stat. A full sweep probably won't happen but you will contribute.
Blaine – You can sweep with Dig. Ponyta and Growlithe are weak and you should have enough power to take down Rapidash and Arcanine
Giovanni – You should do ok with Dig, and most of the team lacks super-effective moves (Dugtrio has Dig but it can be avoided with a Dig of your own, or a switch).
Lorelei – You should stay away from her Water types, but Jynx is beatable.
Bruno – You can beat the fighting types as long as you are at a good enough level since they don't like Fire Blast. You have Dig for Onix.
Agatha – Dig smacks her Ghosts and Arbok around. You can beat Golbat on pure strength alone.
Lance - This isn’t a particularly good match-up. Aerodactyl walls you and Gyarados has Hydro Pump. You might beat the Dragons as long as your level is good enough because they have bad move sets.
Blue – Blastoise and Gyarados are the things to stay away from. Dig and Fire Blast have a few targets and this allows Arcanine to contribute.
-Additional Comments: This is really hurt by its movepool. Arcanine has a lot of potential power thanks to its impressive stats, but it is highly TM dependent. Without Dig, it is far less useful, and although it is still usable it really isn't worth using over something else if it doesn't get the moves it wants. If it does get what it needs, however, it is an incredible asset because it hits like a truck and can gain the upper hand against a number of gyms leaders/elite 4 members.

Kangaskhan

-Kangaskhan - Low Tier
-Availability: It can only be caught in the Safari Zone. This is a problem because it means you are left in the hands of the Safari Zone capture mechanics. It doesn’t help that Kangaskhan is a rare Pokémon with a low capture rate. Unless you can very lucky, you will be looking for it for a long time. It also comes at a level that will probably be lower than your team’s average, but it is powerful and can grind up quite easily. Kangaskhan is much more available in Yellow (higher encounter rate and level) but there are still issues regarding the Safari Zone mechanics.
-Stats: Kangaskhan is built as a physical sweeper with its 95 Attack and 90 Speed. Although they aren’t jaw-droppingly awesome, they are good enough for in-game purposes. With 105 HP and 80 Defence it can take physical hits comfortably. However, 40 Special is poor and powerful special attacks will do a lot of damage to Kangaskhan.
-Movepool: Kangaskhan only learns Normal moves by level-up, although they have plenty of neutral coverage so you could almost get away with just running a mono-Normal moveset. However, Kangaskhan has an extensive TM/HM movepool. It has Earthquake and Rock Slide which will complement the Normal coverage well. Kangaskhan also has a large special movepool, capable of getting Surf, Ice Beam/Blizzard, Fire Blast and Thunderbolt. However, Kangaskhan’s low Special limits the use of these and there are better choices for these moves (you have nothing to lose by teaching Surf though, since it's a HM).
-Power: Kangaskhan is a strong attacker thanks to its decent attack and great physical movepool. It can comfortably run through the weaker trainers in the game easily. It often can’t OHKO stronger opponents with its STAB but it should have no problem 2HKOing things at the very least.
-Type: Normal has no super-effective coverage unfortunately, but it does hit neutral on everything except Rock types and the 3 Ghosts, both of which are covered by Earthquake (Rock Slide for Aerodactyl). Normal has one weakness and one immunity, though both are mostly irrelevant for in-game playthroughs.
-Match-ups: Koga – In RB you may struggle a bit unless you have Earthquake already because they have good bulk. However, they can’t do much back to you either. In Yellow, you have Rock Slide for his bugs, but they are hitting you on your weak Special and Venomoth may be a difficult opponent.
Sabrina – This is an interesting match-up because you both do heavy damage to each other. They hit you on your Low Special and you hit back at their low Defence. Her Pokemon have the advantage in speed though so don't expect to sweep.
Blaine – If you have either Rock Slide or Earthquake and can attempt a sweep. However, Arcanine’s Fire Blast hits you very hard and can burn you.
Giovanni – Earthquake is a good choice here since it covers the stronger Pokémon on his team, and Dugtrio and Persian should be beaten with brute force. Even Surf is a viable option! Thunder is really the only thing that you care about here.
Lorelei – You have Rock Slide but they are hitting you on your low Special so be careful.
Bruno – Hitmonlee and Machamp are brutal with their Fighting moves, but the others should be easily beaten.
Agatha – Earthquake and Rock Slide cover everything and you have the power to beat her quickly. As usual you can lose if you are unlucky, but that’s assumed.
Lance – Rock Slide covers his stronger Pokémon and Dragonair are easy to beat. Gyarados will hit you for large damage with Hydro Pump. This is harder in Yellow since he has more special attacks.
Blue – It depends on what you taught him. Earthquake gets Jolteon, Magneton and the Fire types. Rock Slide hits Charizard, Pidgeot and Gyarados. You can contribute here, but as usual look out for special moves.
-Additional Comments: Kangaskhan is Low simply because it is one of the most unavailable Pokémon in the game. It is a decent Pokémon in its own right, but unless you get very lucky in obtaining it you’ll be looking for it for a while. Any time you gain from using Kangaskhan will probably be insufficient for the purposes of making up for lost time looking for it. If you do get lucky and catch it quickly then it can be awesome, but actually PLANNING to have it as part of your team and specifically looking for it is not recommended.

I'm moving Red Growlithe to Mid for now, as per previous discussions, and reworded it slightly. I only made some very minor adjustments to Kangaskhan.

I also reviewed my entries for Tangela, Chansey, and Kabuto, and have decided to leave them as they are. I think they cover everything required to provide a convincing enough case for their tier placements.

Garud · Feb 24th, 2013, 4:11:00 AM

Not to nitpick here Atsync, but no Erica match-up for Kangaskhan? If I recall correctly, you can catch it before you fight Erika, even though it is highly unlikely.

Other than that, looks good.

neilymon · Feb 25th, 2013, 1:39:31 AM

A quick thought experiment: What's the best STAB Pokemon for each type? Three rules: 1) It should have a decent STAB move early and a strong STAB move late 2) Penalties for high-demand TM reliance 3) No starters

Obvious:
Psychic: Abra (Confusion -> Psybeam -> Psychic)
Ground: Diglett (Dig -> Earthquake)
Flying: Doduo (Peck -> HM Fly -> Drill Peck)
Bug: Weedle (Twineedle)
Poison: Grimer (Sludge)
Debatable:
Fighting: Hitmonlee (Rolling Kick -> Jump Kick -> Hi Jump Kick)
Fire: Growlithe (Ember -> TM Fire Blast) EDIT: Hemp Man is right; Vulpix is better as it learns Flamethrower at Lv35, but no one wants a Vulpix for that long)
Normal: Snorlax (Body Slam -> Hyper Beam)
Ice: Jynx (Ice Punch -> Blizzard)
Rock: Geodude (Rock Throw -> TM Rock Slide)
Grass: Bellsprout (Vine Whip -> Razor Leaf +/- TM SolarBeam)
Water: Tentacool? (Water Gun -> HM Surf +/- Hydro Pump)
Electric: Pikachu? (ThunderShock -> TM Thunderbolt)
Ghost: Gastly (Lick... lol)
Dragon: N/A (Dragon Rage is not a STAB move)

Doduo, Hitmonlee, and Snorlax seem like they're the best choices in their categories by a comfortable margin, which justifies their High Tier status. Growlithe (like Vulpix) is mediocre for Fire STAB because it has to stay unevolved for a very long time to learn Flamethrower, which ultimately just isn't worth it.

Electric and Ice are probably best done by Zapdos and Articuno (despite coming so late in the game). Bug, Poison, and Ghost moves are too weak to make an impact.

A bunch of good Water types show up around the same time (Krabby, Seel, Shellder, Tentacool, Vaporeon) - Tentacool has the highest Spc, but I personally prefer Seel because it levels up faster due to being traded, and it also provides STAB Blizzard, allowing me to skip Articuno.

The same argument could be applied to Geodude; STAB Dig/Earthquake and Rock Slide are very nice to have, but that's three of your best TMs. Finally, there's Bellsprout, who's probably the best Grass type but just doesn't seem useful in enough situations to be in the High Tier.

Any thoughts?

Hemp Man · Feb 25th, 2013, 2:06:38 AM

For Fire STAB Vulpix probably lucks out there as it learns it at Level 35, while the others get it way too late. Not that it matters as Fire isn't the best offensive STAB in-game and Arcanine/Flareon would rather just Body Slam everything.

Chou Toshio · Feb 25th, 2013, 2:41:27 AM

Just going to point out that there's no way in hell Sandslash should be ranked above Geodude.

Geodude appears a lot earlier, has a superior typing (for RBY) both defensively AND offensively, and gets STAB attacks by level up. It even has better stats (5 more HP, 10 more ATK, 20 more DEF, the same SPC, and only loses out on 20 SPE).

It needs Rock Slide, but so little in-game needs Rock Slide that you don't even care. I wrote Golem as a mid-tier poke, and I do think it belongs there-- but there is no way that Slash and +20 SPE alone make Sanslash better than it.

edit: Rather, maybe this means Golem should be moved to High-tier?

Dre89 · Feb 25th, 2013, 4:53:01 AM

Bulbasaur is better than charmander and is the best of the three starters for soloing the E4 at a reasonable level. You basically just sleep the first pokemon, max out your special with growth, then go to town with mega drain, even on stuff that resists it.

Granted that if you don't outlevel the E4 you'll need some luck and probably some retries, but in terms of soloing at a reasonable level it's one of the best pokemon out there.

Chou Toshio · Feb 25th, 2013, 5:02:54 AM

...by the time you're growthing up to +6, you're not making an effective win. If I was going to do that, I'd just x-acc + x-Spe my Blastoise (to sweep with Fissure), and I'd still finish faster.

I do agree that Venusaur seems better than Charizard overall in-game.

Feb 22nd, 2013, 10:51:08 AM	#676
neilymon Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 29	An excellent post was made in the old RBY tiers thread about which Pokemon should be Top Tier: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...8&postcount=29 This guy has it spot on. Squirtle, Charmander, Nidos, and Sandshrew can all solo the game. Granted, they all require X Accuracy (and later X Speed) to OHKO their opponents, but they're all bulky enough to set up on opponents - so it's not like you have to get lucky to do this. Seel (specifically, the traded one) gets Top Tier as well despite being a late add - because it levels up so quickly, and is also bulky enough to set up and Horn Drill the E4. Finally, Zapdos gets top tier because it smashes the E4 with Thunderbolt. Compare that to our top tier here: Abra - Only belongs in the top tier if you can trade it to become Alakazam (many of us can't or don't bother), and even then it should be more specifically the Abra in Goldenrod (EDIT: Celadon), since it only needs to gain one level. Getting an Alakazam in Goldenrod (EDIT: Celadon) makes the rest of the game extremely easy, but it's not like it's any "better" at soloing the E4 than the guys above. I'd go with Abra (with trade) in Top Tier, Abra (no trade) at the top of the High Tier. Articuno - Significantly more annoying to catch than Zapdos, and it doesn't solo the E4 (Lorelei and Gary, esp in Y). Yeah, it's good against the gyms, but that seems like a poor reason to put it in the Top Tier. This is another Pokemon that belongs near the top of the High Tier. Bulbasaur - This is a travesty. Every game has one starter that is weaker than the others, and frankly it's more fun to start with that one since it provides more of a "challenge." (not really in RB) Bulbasaur is the obvious choice - he's great in the beginning, but then he can't handle Sabrina and Blaine without help; at the end, even an overleveled Venusaur struggles against Lorelei, Agatha, and Gary. At best, he belongs in the middle of the High Tier. Diglett - I'll make this short: Ground STAB is a very nice thing to have in this game, but at the end of the game he's definitely outclassed by Sandslash. The big difference is that his poor defense makes it impossible for him to set up for OHKOs. This means he struggles against most of the E4 and Gary, something that is decidedly untrue for Sandlash. This guy belongs near the top of the High Tier. Only Sandshrew is missing from the Top Tier, and he belongs there for all the reasons that Dugtrio does except that he's much better at the end of the game. Summary: 1) Move Sandshrew to the Top Tier 2) Move Abra (no trade), Dugtrio, and Articuno to the top of the High Tier 3) Move Bulbasaur to the middle of the High Tier 4) If you're willing to create a separate entry for Abra (trade), then it justifiably belongs in the Top Tier. Aside: Needless to say, only RB Squirtle and Charmander belong in the Top Tier. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- EDIT It's come to my attention that X-items are not allowed for consideration of tiering. I don't agree with this: OHKO Pokemon that are bulky enough to set up with X Speed and X Accuracy deserve to be in the highest tier because they win the game as efficiently as possible. It's not like you need to spend extra time (i.e. overleveling Pokemon) and you obviously have plenty of money to buy the items by the time you actually need them (i.e. Elite Four and Gary). Stupid arguments like "X Items can make any Pokemon good enough" are garbage because most Pokemon aren't bulky enough to set up before they get KOed. The idea is to take luck out of the picture as much as possible - and Top Tier Pokemon consistently set up with X Speed and X Accuracy before OHKOing the entire opposing team. Besides, they're good enough to STAB everything before the E4 and Gary - so they're High Tier even before considering OHKOs. This should be the definition of Top Tier: Pokemon that can consistently win the game without support from any other Pokemon (and without going out of your way to level up). This should be the definition of High Tier: Pokemon that can consistently defeat the vast majority of opponents, but require help from other Pokemon for specific matchups. You need a team of 2-4 High Tier Pokemon to beat the game, or you can just use a Top Tier Pokemon and five Magikarps. Nevertheless, if those are the thread rules, then Sandshrew is probably out of the Top Tier and into the top of the High Tier. He still belongs above Dugtrio, because of his superior Attack and Defense. Seel stays in the Top Tier because it crushes the last 25% of the game with STAB Surf and Blizzard. Abra (no trade) is probably a Top Tier under these conditions because Kadabra is excellent against everything beside Lance. Articuno still belongs in the High Tier because it's strictly inferior to Zapdos. Bulbasaur also belongs in the High Tier because it's strictly inferior to the other two starters. Last edited by neilymon; Feb 22nd, 2013 at 11:45:36 AM. Reason: X-items

Feb 22nd, 2013, 11:42:07 AM	#677
Hemp Man Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 744 USA California	"Getting an Alakazam in Goldenrod makes the rest of the game extremely easy, but it's not like it's any "better" at soloing the E4 than the guys above. I'd go with Abra (with trade) in Top Tier, Abra (no trade) at the top of the High Tier." Goldenrod is in GSC, not RBY. Wait, Bulbasaur for high tier because it struggles with a few boss trainers, but Sandslash for top tier? I would like to see Sandslash at an average level solo Misty, Erika, and Lorelei. You mention X-items, but I can't buy into the idea of setting up 2 X-items on Dewgong's face. Although I will test it out if you want me too. As far as Articuno not being able to fully sweep the E4, neither can Zapdos. Articuno sweeps Bruno, where as Zapdos is embarrassingly walled by Onix. Nothing on Gary's team walls Articuno (except MAYBE Cloyster in Yellow), but Rhydon (RB) or his Electric type (Y) resist Zapdos's best STABs. __________________ This is Bleach love!

Feb 22nd, 2013, 5:15:57 PM	#682
neilymon Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 29	Yeah, I just played this out. Digging Sandslash can't beat Starmie on its own without additional leveling. It additionally struggles against Erika and Lorelei, as observed earlier. I think all that pushes Sandshrew down to the High Tier, where it's currently listed. Here's my main question: does Diglett really deserve to be in Top Tier above it? Basically the only arguments for Diglett over Sandshrew are: 1) Dugtrio can be caught as high as Lv31; it immediately beats Starmie and only needs four levels to get Slash. However, finding Dugtrio is fairly time-consuming. 2) Diglett learns Dig on its own, saving the TM (two if you count Earthquake). 3) It's significantly faster. 4) It's available in Red (lol). Are these good enough reasons to take it over Sandshrew? After Misty, I can catch Sandshrew at Lv15 and teach it Dig immediately. Roll through Surge, where it learns Slash at Lv17, then Slash your way to Lv22, where it evolves; Sandslash gets 100% Critical Hit on Slash. Slash/Dig OHKO or 2HKOs almost everything going off its superb Atk, but unlike Dugtrio, Sandslash retains late game value because it survives against things it can't OHKO. This also means it can setup Fissure against the Elite Four (except Lorelei) and Rival. This last part elevates it above Dugtrio for me - although obviously it doesn't matter if you don't intend on using Fissure and strictly stick to good matchups. Random aside: Apropos of nothing, Sandshrew is an essential component of a Pokemon Blue/Yellow speedrun since you can catch one on your way to Cerulean and it learns Cut and Strength. Not sure what serves this role for a Pokemon Red speedrun. Last edited by neilymon; Feb 22nd, 2013 at 5:38:56 PM.

Feb 22nd, 2013, 7:40:40 PM	#685
Hemp Man Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 744 USA California	Machamp has Rock Slide in GSC, in RBY only Bruno's Onix has Rock moves. When I used Venusaur against Lorelei Razor Leaf swept Dewgong, Slowbro, and Cloyster. Lapras was capable of surviving Razor Leaf, and you really shouldn't bother using Venusaur against a Jynx. Also, speaking of Sandslash, I may be wrong, but wasn't Mekkah himself going to rewrite it? __________________ This is Bleach love!

Feb 24th, 2013, 3:43:28 AM	#694
atsync Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 809 Australia	Growlithe (Red) -Growlithe (Red) - Mid Tier -Availability: In RB, it is found on Route 8. It is underlevelled, although it can catch up using Dig's supereffective coverage against some of the other Pokemon on the route. -Stats: Arcanine has excellent stats. 110 Attack and 95 Speed make it a powerful physical attacker. It has 90 HP, 80 Defence and 80 Special, giving it good bulk and allowing it to use Fire Blast effectively. -Movepool: Growlithe’s movepool is small overall. Growlithe’s level up movepool isn’t the greatest, but it starts with Bite, which is ok. It also gets Flamethrower but it comes far too late and it isn’t worth delaying evolution. Arcanine gets Dig from TM, which you’ll need if you want Arcanine to reach its full potential. Body Slam is also helpful but not required (Double-Edge and Take Down are acceptable but inferior alternatives and although they aren’t great moves they are tolerable if you are using Dig as your main attack), and Fire Blast can also be used although it comes late. -Power: Arcanine is a powerhouse, blasting through almost all trainers with ridiculous ease. Pretty much everything is at least 2HKOed, and most regular trainer Pokémon are OHKOed. Of course, this is assuming it gets the moves it wants (Dig mainly). Without Dig it is much less powerful. -Type: Fire is certainly not the best STAB in the game but you probably won’t be using it throughout most of your playthrough anyway (Fire Blast comes late and Ember is nearly useless). Fire has some bad weaknesses too, although it should be said that with the right moves you'll often avoid taking damage anyway. -Match-ups: Erika - Ember is too weak to kill Victreebel and Vileplume quickly but Tangela (who has a terrible moveset) can be 2HKOed. Grass resistance also gives Arcanine a good shot at contributing here, and the fact that none of her Pokemon have Stun Spore in Red makes this easier. Koga – It can sweep through Koga just fine in Red with Dig. His team isn’t that great and even if you lose you’ll inflict enough damage to finish him off with something else. Sabrina – No type advantage but you actually do ok here because you have enough bulk to take a hit and you are hitting against the weaker Defence stat. A full sweep probably won't happen but you will contribute. Blaine – You can sweep with Dig. Ponyta and Growlithe are weak and you should have enough power to take down Rapidash and Arcanine Giovanni – You should do ok with Dig, and most of the team lacks super-effective moves (Dugtrio has Dig but it can be avoided with a Dig of your own, or a switch). Lorelei – You should stay away from her Water types, but Jynx is beatable. Bruno – You can beat the fighting types as long as you are at a good enough level since they don't like Fire Blast. You have Dig for Onix. Agatha – Dig smacks her Ghosts and Arbok around. You can beat Golbat on pure strength alone. Lance - This isn’t a particularly good match-up. Aerodactyl walls you and Gyarados has Hydro Pump. You might beat the Dragons as long as your level is good enough because they have bad move sets. Blue – Blastoise and Gyarados are the things to stay away from. Dig and Fire Blast have a few targets and this allows Arcanine to contribute. -Additional Comments: This is really hurt by its movepool. Arcanine has a lot of potential power thanks to its impressive stats, but it is highly TM dependent. Without Dig, it is far less useful, and although it is still usable it really isn't worth using over something else if it doesn't get the moves it wants. If it does get what it needs, however, it is an incredible asset because it hits like a truck and can gain the upper hand against a number of gyms leaders/elite 4 members. Kangaskhan -Kangaskhan - Low Tier -Availability: It can only be caught in the Safari Zone. This is a problem because it means you are left in the hands of the Safari Zone capture mechanics. It doesn’t help that Kangaskhan is a rare Pokémon with a low capture rate. Unless you can very lucky, you will be looking for it for a long time. It also comes at a level that will probably be lower than your team’s average, but it is powerful and can grind up quite easily. Kangaskhan is much more available in Yellow (higher encounter rate and level) but there are still issues regarding the Safari Zone mechanics. -Stats: Kangaskhan is built as a physical sweeper with its 95 Attack and 90 Speed. Although they aren’t jaw-droppingly awesome, they are good enough for in-game purposes. With 105 HP and 80 Defence it can take physical hits comfortably. However, 40 Special is poor and powerful special attacks will do a lot of damage to Kangaskhan. -Movepool: Kangaskhan only learns Normal moves by level-up, although they have plenty of neutral coverage so you could almost get away with just running a mono-Normal moveset. However, Kangaskhan has an extensive TM/HM movepool. It has Earthquake and Rock Slide which will complement the Normal coverage well. Kangaskhan also has a large special movepool, capable of getting Surf, Ice Beam/Blizzard, Fire Blast and Thunderbolt. However, Kangaskhan’s low Special limits the use of these and there are better choices for these moves (you have nothing to lose by teaching Surf though, since it's a HM). -Power: Kangaskhan is a strong attacker thanks to its decent attack and great physical movepool. It can comfortably run through the weaker trainers in the game easily. It often can’t OHKO stronger opponents with its STAB but it should have no problem 2HKOing things at the very least. -Type: Normal has no super-effective coverage unfortunately, but it does hit neutral on everything except Rock types and the 3 Ghosts, both of which are covered by Earthquake (Rock Slide for Aerodactyl). Normal has one weakness and one immunity, though both are mostly irrelevant for in-game playthroughs. -Match-ups: Koga – In RB you may struggle a bit unless you have Earthquake already because they have good bulk. However, they can’t do much back to you either. In Yellow, you have Rock Slide for his bugs, but they are hitting you on your weak Special and Venomoth may be a difficult opponent. Sabrina – This is an interesting match-up because you both do heavy damage to each other. They hit you on your Low Special and you hit back at their low Defence. Her Pokemon have the advantage in speed though so don't expect to sweep. Blaine – If you have either Rock Slide or Earthquake and can attempt a sweep. However, Arcanine’s Fire Blast hits you very hard and can burn you. Giovanni – Earthquake is a good choice here since it covers the stronger Pokémon on his team, and Dugtrio and Persian should be beaten with brute force. Even Surf is a viable option! Thunder is really the only thing that you care about here. Lorelei – You have Rock Slide but they are hitting you on your low Special so be careful. Bruno – Hitmonlee and Machamp are brutal with their Fighting moves, but the others should be easily beaten. Agatha – Earthquake and Rock Slide cover everything and you have the power to beat her quickly. As usual you can lose if you are unlucky, but that’s assumed. Lance – Rock Slide covers his stronger Pokémon and Dragonair are easy to beat. Gyarados will hit you for large damage with Hydro Pump. This is harder in Yellow since he has more special attacks. Blue – It depends on what you taught him. Earthquake gets Jolteon, Magneton and the Fire types. Rock Slide hits Charizard, Pidgeot and Gyarados. You can contribute here, but as usual look out for special moves. -Additional Comments: Kangaskhan is Low simply because it is one of the most unavailable Pokémon in the game. It is a decent Pokémon in its own right, but unless you get very lucky in obtaining it you’ll be looking for it for a while. Any time you gain from using Kangaskhan will probably be insufficient for the purposes of making up for lost time looking for it. If you do get lucky and catch it quickly then it can be awesome, but actually PLANNING to have it as part of your team and specifically looking for it is not recommended. I'm moving Red Growlithe to Mid for now, as per previous discussions, and reworded it slightly. I only made some very minor adjustments to Kangaskhan. I also reviewed my entries for Tangela, Chansey, and Kabuto, and have decided to leave them as they are. I think they cover everything required to provide a convincing enough case for their tier placements. __________________ Hidden Items in RBY (UPLOADED) Pokemon Dream Radar Guide RBY In-Game Tiers + Article

Feb 22nd, 2013, 2:01:37 PM	#681
Longfellow Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 156	The assumption for these tier lists is that you're running a team of 4-6 Pokémon. That Zapdos can't beat Bruno quickly (though it still can, though may need an Ether/Full Restore or two) isn't really a black mark because any other Pokémon can beat him. The point of listing the Gym Leaders / Elite Four is the idea that hard battles affect tier placement more than easy ones. Not all bosses are made equal though. Bruno and Blaine matter less than Cerulean Rival and post-Giovanni Rival, despite that we don't list those battles in our analyses. I don't think Digging Sandslash can beat Starmie without para support from another Pokémon.

Feb 22nd, 2013, 7:29:03 PM	#684
Alice in Strings Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 249	>Worst starter is Bulbasaur >implying that Charmander is even relevent in the late-game Charmander is the weakest Starter because the Charmeleon stage is terrible (lol 65 Special Ember until evolution) and Fire in general is terrible in RBY. You say that Bulbasaur has trouble with Lorelei (it really doesn't) but Charmander's in even worse shape because it dies to Water attacks with its fairly mediocre Special. Bruno's Machamp has Rock Slide iirc, and Lance's entire team shits all over Charizard. Bulbasaur gets Critical Leaf, Body Slam, Leech Seed, the three Powders, and has the bulk to take on Lorelei's Pokemon. Obviously Agatha's a problem thanks to her POISON type team, but Venusaur kills Lance because lolAI and Gary's Gyarados, Exeggutor, and Rhydon are all killed by it. Dude, what have you been smoking? I might as well point this out right now: Sandslash doesn't get a Ground type move by level up, meaning it's HEAVILY TM reliant. Like...it can't do anything unless it gets those TMs it really wants. Those TMs happen to be very high demand ones at that. No way is Sandslash Top Tier material at all. I'd put it in Mid at best because its slow and takes Special Attacks like a wet paper bag, significantly hindering it in this game filled with Special Attackers. Blaine's Arcanine murders it with Fire Blast and also outspeeds it, for example.

Feb 22nd, 2013, 8:05:56 PM	#686
Longfellow Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 156	I also don't think Charmander should be top tier. Just thought Bulbasaur would be an easier case to make. It's tricky to compare Charmander to Bulbasaur. Charmander is much better early-game in every way except for the Brock/Misty fights and can be better mid-game if it gets Dig. However, the TM reliance is bad and the alternative Mega Punch/Ember Charmander is mediocre—still better than pre-Razor Leaf Bulbasaur, but a lot worse after Razor Leaf. As for the Elite Four, Bulbasaur's better against Lorelei (note also that her Ice attacks are SE against Charizard) and Lance whereas Charmander's better against Agatha and Rival.

Feb 23rd, 2013, 2:23:27 AM	#689
Longfellow Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 156	Let's not raise our voices. It is assumed that we do not use the X Accuracy/OHKO combo. I think we talked about that a couple pages back. It would be nice if the first post explained just what kind of run we're talking about. It is true that Sandshrew is quite good at solo runs (the question, of course, isn't whether you can do it but how easy/fast you are), and it is also true that the X Accuracy trick makes Charmander one of the best Pokémon in the game to solo with (not that much slower than Squirtle, actually). But we are assuming teams of 4-6 where the level scales at about the same pace as the Gym Leaders. Regarding Dig, TM reliance is always a problem even if you are the best user of said TM.

Feb 23rd, 2013, 3:59:19 AM	#693
Longfellow Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 156	Posting to agree. Don't be fooled by Kadabra being not fully evolved—it is by far the best mid-game Pokémon. Besides maybe Dugtrio. Mr. Mime does get close-ish due to the outsider bonus though. He is always a bit weaker and a bit sturdier than Kadabra. Kadabra's total unreliance on TMs and use of Recover late-game make big differences though. Trivia: it is most experience-efficient for Mr. Mime if Abra is trained to level 14 before trading.

Feb 24th, 2013, 4:11:00 AM	#695
Garud Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 140	Not to nitpick here Atsync, but no Erica match-up for Kangaskhan? If I recall correctly, you can catch it before you fight Erika, even though it is highly unlikely. Other than that, looks good. __________________ Pokemon White FC: 4212 3513 8759 Pokemon LV 1 Challenge: Cynthia Morimoto Pokemon Roulette Nuzlocke Challenge Ep: 1 2

Feb 25th, 2013, 1:39:31 AM	#696
neilymon Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 29	A quick thought experiment: What's the best STAB Pokemon for each type? Three rules: 1) It should have a decent STAB move early and a strong STAB move late 2) Penalties for high-demand TM reliance 3) No starters Obvious: Psychic: Abra (Confusion -> Psybeam -> Psychic) Ground: Diglett (Dig -> Earthquake) Flying: Doduo (Peck -> HM Fly -> Drill Peck) Bug: Weedle (Twineedle) Poison: Grimer (Sludge) Debatable: Fighting: Hitmonlee (Rolling Kick -> Jump Kick -> Hi Jump Kick) Fire: Growlithe (Ember -> TM Fire Blast) EDIT: Hemp Man is right; Vulpix is better as it learns Flamethrower at Lv35, but no one wants a Vulpix for that long) Normal: Snorlax (Body Slam -> Hyper Beam) Ice: Jynx (Ice Punch -> Blizzard) Rock: Geodude (Rock Throw -> TM Rock Slide) Grass: Bellsprout (Vine Whip -> Razor Leaf +/- TM SolarBeam) Water: Tentacool? (Water Gun -> HM Surf +/- Hydro Pump) Electric: Pikachu? (ThunderShock -> TM Thunderbolt) Ghost: Gastly (Lick... lol) Dragon: N/A (Dragon Rage is not a STAB move) Doduo, Hitmonlee, and Snorlax seem like they're the best choices in their categories by a comfortable margin, which justifies their High Tier status. Growlithe (like Vulpix) is mediocre for Fire STAB because it has to stay unevolved for a very long time to learn Flamethrower, which ultimately just isn't worth it. Electric and Ice are probably best done by Zapdos and Articuno (despite coming so late in the game). Bug, Poison, and Ghost moves are too weak to make an impact. A bunch of good Water types show up around the same time (Krabby, Seel, Shellder, Tentacool, Vaporeon) - Tentacool has the highest Spc, but I personally prefer Seel because it levels up faster due to being traded, and it also provides STAB Blizzard, allowing me to skip Articuno. The same argument could be applied to Geodude; STAB Dig/Earthquake and Rock Slide are very nice to have, but that's three of your best TMs. Finally, there's Bellsprout, who's probably the best Grass type but just doesn't seem useful in enough situations to be in the High Tier. Any thoughts? Last edited by neilymon; Feb 25th, 2013 at 10:07:18 AM. Reason: Vulpix per Hemp Man's comment

Feb 25th, 2013, 2:06:38 AM	#697
Hemp Man Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 744 USA California	For Fire STAB Vulpix probably lucks out there as it learns it at Level 35, while the others get it way too late. Not that it matters as Fire isn't the best offensive STAB in-game and Arcanine/Flareon would rather just Body Slam everything. __________________ This is Bleach love!

Feb 25th, 2013, 2:41:27 AM	#698
Chou Toshio Hmmm... A name for the plan... Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 7,028 Sea Forest	Just going to point out that there's no way in hell Sandslash should be ranked above Geodude. Geodude appears a lot earlier, has a superior typing (for RBY) both defensively AND offensively, and gets STAB attacks by level up. It even has better stats (5 more HP, 10 more ATK, 20 more DEF, the same SPC, and only loses out on 20 SPE). It needs Rock Slide, but so little in-game needs Rock Slide that you don't even care. I wrote Golem as a mid-tier poke, and I do think it belongs there-- but there is no way that Slash and +20 SPE alone make Sanslash better than it. edit: Rather, maybe this means Golem should be moved to High-tier? __________________ "Hmmm... a name for this plan..." Last edited by Chou Toshio; Feb 25th, 2013 at 2:52:16 AM.

Feb 25th, 2013, 4:53:01 AM	#699
Dre89 Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 256	Bulbasaur is better than charmander and is the best of the three starters for soloing the E4 at a reasonable level. You basically just sleep the first pokemon, max out your special with growth, then go to town with mega drain, even on stuff that resists it. Granted that if you don't outlevel the E4 you'll need some luck and probably some retries, but in terms of soloing at a reasonable level it's one of the best pokemon out there.

Feb 25th, 2013, 5:02:54 AM	#700
Chou Toshio Hmmm... A name for the plan... Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 7,028 Sea Forest	...by the time you're growthing up to +6, you're not making an effective win. If I was going to do that, I'd just x-acc + x-Spe my Blastoise (to sweep with Fissure), and I'd still finish faster. I do agree that Venusaur seems better than Charizard overall in-game. __________________ "Hmmm... a name for this plan..."