My Unnamed Sun Team. Please rate and help me improve it

prabhbhambra13 · Jul 30th, 2012, 7:04:12 AM

So i built a team around Sun and i want some feedback on it, here we go.

Here is the team (screenshots from pokemonshowdown, also i'm sorry that the order of pokemon in the team is all over the place)

Cloyster @ Leftovers
Trait: Skill Link
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Atk / 176 Def
Impish Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes
- Hydro Pump

i wanted to put cloyster in because entry hazards are a huge threat to a sun team (especially Volcarona) and i needed spin support. i added in Spikes so i had some entry hazards to place. icicle spear and hydro pump are pretty standard STAB moves (although hydro pump is weakened in the rain i needed something to deal with enemy fire pkmn trying to take advantage of my sun). i chose to go heavy on HP and defense EVs and give it leftovers to play to cloyster's strengths which is its resilience and longevity. the main point is to keep it alive long enough to provide spin support throughout the game.

Starmie @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Rapid Spin

again another spin support. i thought i needed another just in case something goes wrong with cloyster i can't be left without spin, this might be overkill though. starmie also has ice blot/beam coverage and a huge speed stat making it pretty good at exploiting weaknesses in opponent teams. i chose to add psychic because hydro pump is weakened in the sun and psychic is another good STAB move (although i'm now second guessing that choice). again leftovers are to help keep it alive for as long as possible. EVs are pretty standard.

Dragonite @ Lum Berry
Trait: Multiscale
EVs: 44 Atk / 212 Spd / 252 HP
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake

Dragonite is my non sun dependent sweeper, i chose to go with bulky DD because i want it to tank a few hits while building DD so it can sweep easily. DD is standard. outrage is questionable, it's power is great but i'm not sure if it's worth getting locked into the move (maybe go for dragon claw and then switch lum berry for leftovers?). fire punch provides a pseudo-STAB move. for the last slot i wanted to go for roost to help keep it's hp up while building DD but i ran into a lot of problems for my team from Heatran so i used earthquake to help deal with him.

Volcarona @ Leftovers
Trait: Flame Body
EVs: 240 HP / 216 Def / 52 Spd
Bold Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Fiery Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Morning Sun

Volcarona is a really good fire type sweeper. i again went bulky to give it a chance to build up quiver dances. fiery dance is better than fire blast for its accuracy and possible stat changes. bug buzz is my anti tyranitar move (other weather teams are a threat to the sun so i need to take tyranitar out quickly). morning sun and leftovers again are to help keep it alive (although leftovers are less important due to morning sun, maybe go for a life orb instead?).

Ninetales @ Leftovers
Trait: Drought
EVs: 252 SAtk / 120 Spd / 136 HP
Modest Nature
- Sunny Day
- Energy Ball
- Fire Blast
- Will-O-Wisp

Ninetales is the standard sun inducer, sunny day is there for predicting when the opponent is going to try to negate the sun by switching in other weather inducers. energy ball gives some coverage and can be used to take a quick shot at a politoed switching in, i chose it over solarbeam because i seem to get into a lot of weather wars and solarbeam only excels in the sun making it useless elsewhere. again leftovers and EV choices are so that i keep my weather inducer alive for as long as possible.

Venusaur @ Life Orb
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Growth
- SolarBeam
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Synthesis

Venusaur is great in the sun. he is my cholophyll sweeper but the problem is that out of the sun he's almost useless. growth and synthesis are a lot better in the sun. solarbeam is great in the sun but locks you in when out of the sun. hidden power gives a pseudo-STAB move in the sun but is not great out of the sun. i'm thinking of switching to Giga Drain to give it more use out of the sun (and making it easier to deal with politoed and establish weather control), this then relieves the need for synthesis and frees up a move slot.

Threats:
the big threat i have encountered are establishing weather control (especially against poiltoed) and water pokemon in general (although this might be fixed with my proposed changes to Venusaur, before i only had starmie's bolt to deal with them).

thank you for reading my post and am grateful for any feedback you give

ThatsMyLatios · Jul 30th, 2012, 7:43:22 AM

Hi, I really like this team but there are few problems that I feel need to be addressed. For starters, your team seems really frustrated by Heatran, this Poke has the ability to wall your Special Sweepers with ease and you only have one way to OHKO it. Another big problem your team has is it's lack of Stealth Rock support. Stealth Rock is regarded as the best move in the game, getting crucial damage on everything that comes in. This move is also crucial for breaking Dragonite's Multiscale. To solve this Problem, I recommend that you replace your Starmie or Cloyster with Dugtrio. The presence of Dugtrio makes your opponent play more cautiously with their Heatran so it will become less troublesome. If you predict a Heatran switch, go straight to Dugtrio who can trap it with it's Arena Trap ability and OHKO with STAB Earthquake. The reason I feel Cloyster or Starmie to be replaced is because I don't feel you need two Rapid Spinner's. Here is the set:

Item: Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
Hasty Nature 252 Atk | 252 Spe
Earthquake
Reversal
Stealth Rock
Memento / Substitute
The remaining 4 EVs wont be of any benefit but you could put it anywhere, Personal Choice. Reversal is handy with Substitute because you can Sub down to minimum HP and guarantee the OHKO on a Tyranitar, a fighting move is also helpful for hitting stuff like Hydreigon and the big blobs. You could use Memento because it lower's offensive stats of things that come in trying to set up on Dugtrio. Stealth Rock is of course the most important move in the game.

Also, I suggest that you change a few things on you Venusaur. First, as your team already has plenty of Fire attacks I recommend you run Hidden Power Ice > Hidden Power Fire. Using Hidden Power Ice means that you will not be walled by Dragon Types such as Dragonite, Salamence, Hydreigon, and Latios. Hidden Power Ice at +1 also is able to do decent damage to Latias, which can be annoying to your team. Lastly, I think you should use Giga Drain > Solarbeam because it mean's you have a powerful Grass STAB without having to rely on the presence of Sun.

Hope this rate helped, good luck with your team!

Jimbon · Jul 30th, 2012, 8:25:56 AM

Hi there!

This is a cool Sun team, spin support meaning that Volcarona and Dragonite will have easy switch ins which can mean lots of opportunities to set up. One thing I do see is a weakness to opposing Dragons. Your main sweeper Venusaur is walled by Dragons with your current moveset, while your own Dragon is relatively slow against other common Dragons such as Latios and Salamence. Either of these can cause huge problems for your team, with no Steel type you really have nothing to switch into either of them, and your only hope is to outspeed with Starmie, meaning Scarf Dragons are even more problematic. You can't really hope to revenge either when Venusaur can't do a lot to them. To help with this weakness, I recommend you try out an Offensive Stealth Rock Mamoswine over your current Cloyster. It does seem a little redundant to me to have two spinners on your team, as one is more than enough. If you play well with Starmie, you shouldn't ever need to Spin with Cloyster, not to mention Cloyster is also weak to hazards while Starmie gets access to Recover and Natural Cure. Offensive Stealth Rock Mamoswine gives you much needed hazards on your team. Unlike Cloyster's previous Spikes, Stealth Rock hits everything, breaking sashes and multiscale is too good to pass up. Additionally, Mamoswine also gives you an additional check to the aforementioned Dragons, with powerful priority it forms as a great revenge killer to most common dragons, clearing the way for Venusaur to sweep. Mamoswine's offensive presence also means that it forces a lot of switches, making it very easy for you to get Stealth Rock up. Mamoswine also deals with Tyranitar and Heatran, both of which are problematic for Sun teams to face.

With 3 Pokemon weak to Rapid Spin, you will have a pretty big reliance on your Spinner to remove hazards on your side of the field. Given that this is a Sun team, you will need to get rid of hazards to continuously keep your weather up against opposing weathers. It helps Ninetales to avoid losing 1/4 of it's health every time you switch in, which is very important in weather wars. To help with these problems, I recommend you change your current Starmie to a Defensive Rapid Spin set. Defensive Starmie seems like a much better fit over your current Life Orb set. Given how much you rely on keeping hazards off the field, you will need Starmie to keep spinning away hazards. Starmie is also very frail with your current set, so it will find it hard to Spin when it takes ~50% from every hit, and lacks Recover to keep Spinning. Defensive Starmie clears up all these problems, with Recover it ensures you can keep Starmie around for a long time. By going Defensive, you don't really lose anything. You gain an additional check to Scarf Terrakion, who can revenge everything on your team right now, as well as a more solid check to Dragons. Honestly, there's no need to go fully offensive with Starmie, when Spinning is much more important for your team, and Volcarona and Venusaur already cover the Special Attacker role well enough.

Finally, I do think you should change your Venusaur set to be a little more efficient. A set of 80 HP / 252 SAtk / 176 Spe with a Timid Nature seems a lot better for your team. With a Timid Nature and 176 Speed EVs you can outspeed Scarf variants of Terrakion and Latios, both of which are problematic for your team. You also gain some bulk while maximizing offensive power, which is great for switching in on Volt Switches / U-Turns and setting up easier. Your previous set running Modest, Life Orb and Growth does seem a little overkill, while this set Substitutes some of that power into speed giving Venusaur a much better chance at a sweep.

Cool team, hope I helped!

Sets

Sayonara · Jul 30th, 2012, 3:04:32 PM

Hey,

Nice team, prabhbhambra13. I find that your team is really weak against opposing Specially Defensive Heatran, as it completely walls Volcarona, Venusaur, Ninetales and Starmie, while it can easily switch-into Dragonite's Outrage. In Sun, Cloyster's Hydro Pump won't be hitting it hard, and Heatran gets its STAB boosted. I don't really see the need of using 2 Rapid Spin users - Starmie already does a good job at spinning. Another thing I noticed is that you don't have Stealth Rock. This amazing offensive tool would greatly benefit your team, and it prevents opposing Volcarona and Dragonite from getting free switch-ins all the time. To help you deal with Heatran and give your team a Stealth Rock user, I'd recommend a Reversal Dugtrio (see set below) instead of Cloyster. Thanks to Arena Trap, Dugtrio can trap an opponent's Heatran and demolish it with a STAB Earthquake, removing that counter from the game - this greatly helps Volcarona in sweeping. Stealth Rock can easily be set up, and Focus Sash activates when the opponent attacks Dugtrio. When the Focus Sash will be used, Dugtrio will be sitting at 1 HP, which maximizes Reversal's power, and lets Dugtrio annihilate non-Chople Berry Tyranitar, which lets you win the weather war in this situation. Stone Edge is a coverage move that lets you deal with Dragonite / Salamence, who would otherwise use Dugtrio as a set-up fodder. Dugtrio can also be effective in late-game situations, as its 120 Base Speed is really useful to revenge-kill weakened opponents. I'd also second ThatsMyLatios' recommendation of Hidden Power Ice over Hidden Power Fire on Venusaur, as it allows it to get past the plethora of Dragons seen in the metagame. Finally, you may want Psyshock over Psychic on Starmie - this allows it to get past CM Keldeo and Virizion by by-passing their special defense boosts. In addition, Starmie can outspeed them. I find Choice Band Dragonite to be a good fit on your team, as its raw power is devastating for opposing teams, and with Rapid Spin and Stealth Rock support, it can effectively sweep mid-game or late-game. I'd go with Extremespeed over Dragon Dance on the set, and an EV spread of 60 HP / 252 Atk / 196 Spe. Extremespeed hits hard with a Choice Band and is useful to revenge-kill faster and weakened opponents. At the moment, Dragonite doesn't have much of an offensive initial presence, meaning it has to set up in order to do loads of damage, so the extra power would help as a wallbreaker. I don't have much else to add - cool team, and good luck! Hope I helped.

Reversal Dugtrio

Avatar Korra · Jul 30th, 2012, 4:09:48 PM

Hello! You have a very interesting team! You've already gotten some excellent rates but I'll do my best!

I second Jimbon's suggestion of switching Cloyster over for Mamoswine. Cloyster to me seems like a weak link in this team. Cloyster's weakness to common types like Fighting, Grass, and Electric, as well as SR weakness, prevent it from being a truly effective wall. Like Jimbon said, sun teams, yours especially, have issues with Heatran, Tyranitar, and Dragons. Mamoswine effectively fixes this, while still giving you a much needed hazard that is Stealth Rock. This is the set Jimbon suggested which I recommend:

Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Thick Fat
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Crash
- Stealth Rock

Your reliance on Rapid Spin means you need Starmie to survive as long as possible, so again use Jimbon's set of:

Starmie @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 228 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Recover
- Rapid Spin

With Sun being out, Hydro Pump will be severely weakened so I don't recommend it. Psyshock makes you an effective check against powerful Fighting type Pokemon like Terrakion and Virizion switching in, and HP Fire can help you take out Scizor and Forretress.

Finally, I would switch your Venusaur set heavily. If Mamoswine goes down, you will pretty much lose to any dragon, so it'd be nice to have Venu not completely walled by them. With a Life Orb, Venusaur becomes very powerful and you don't even have to waste time setting up with Growth. I recommend a purely offensive set:

Venusaur @ Life Orb
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 156 Atk / 172 SAtk / 180 Spd
Naive Nature
- Sleep Powder
- SolarBeam
- Hidden Power Ice
- Earthquake

Sleep Powder allows you to pretty much shut down a Pokemon for the rest of the match. Solarbeam hits like a monster and wrecks anything neutral/weak to it. HP Ice is for Dragons and grass types who try and wall Venusaur. Venusaur will still be faster than all scarfed dragons/all dragons with one Dance up with this EV set and sun up. Earthquake is valuable as it causes steel types not to wall Venusaur as well as taking out Tentacruel.

My one last suggestion is for Ninetales. I would lose the Sunny Day set, as you should never risk staying in on incoming Tyranitar who try and switch in. I would use a more bulky set, which can cripple dangerous threats and be a more effective sun user that survives much longer. As I said while rating a previous sun team:

"The only way I can see Sunny Day used effectively against Tyranitar is to use it if you predict TTar switching in. However, if you're predicting it to switch in anyways, I would rather permanently cripple it with a burn. Besides, Solarbeam I don't think is strong enough to take out TTar anyways, so there's no way I would stay on it to both Sunny Day and then SolarBeam for the no-kill, while it can take out Ninetales whenever it wants."

So anyways, Bulky set:

Ninetales @ Leftovers
Drought
248 HP / 16 Def / 8 SAtk / 220 SDef / 16 Spd
Calm Nature
- Roar
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Flamethrower

Will-O-Wisp is great for crippling dangerous physical threats that like to switch into Ninetails, like Tyranitar. Pain Split is an effective way of healing, ensuring your only 'mon who sets up sun lasts a while, and Roar is good for shuffling around the opponent's team of course.

Well, that's all I have to say, I hope my suggestions were helpful ^_^

prabhbhambra13 · Jul 30th, 2012, 6:57:34 PM

Wow, thanks for all of the great responses. i've made some updates:

Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
Trait: Arena Trap
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Reversal
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge

in for cloyster. helps deal with heatran, adds stealth rock. i prefer dugtrio over the suggestions of mamoswine because i think i have dealt with the possibility of dragons later on in the edits

Starmie @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Rapid Spin

added psyshock rather than psychic, switched thunderbolt to recover to increase longevity. i didn't add hidden power fire because i think i already have enough fire moves in this team. it feels very fragile though, whenever it's used to do anything rather than spin and then switch out it dies pretty easily, is that just something i have be smart about and just live with?

Dragonite @ Leftovers
Trait: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 212 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake

switched to leftovers rather than lum. i tried the choice band set in a few matches and to be honest i prefer bulky dd, i'm still up in the air about choice band/extremespeed though, maybe some more games with it will convince me to switch.

Volcarona @ Leftovers
Trait: Flame Body
EVs: 240 HP / 216 Def / 52 Spd
Bold Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Fiery Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Morning Sun

went untouched because it's awesome

Ninetales @ Leftovers
Trait: Drought
EVs: 136 HP / 252 SAtk / 120 Spd
Modest Nature
- Fire Blast
- Energy Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hypnosis

switched sunny day (was pretty useless at the time) for hypnosis, new plan is to burn or put to sleep incoming weather threats. i'm still not sure about this though, i have no idea what to put as the last move. Roar and Pain Split were suggested but i'm not sure about them, i don't like the randomness of roar and i don't think that pain split is a very reliable way of healing. ninetales seems to be the hardest aspect of this team to figure out, it doesn't seen to have a role outside of changing the weather.

Venusaur @ Life Orb
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SAtk / 176 Spd
Timid Nature
- Growth
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Synthesis

changed hidden power type and solarbeam for giga drain to help against dragons and it's general usefulness outside of the sun, it also counters politoed more efficiently. tweaked EVs to be more efficient.

so those are the changes, do you think i've covered my weaknesses reasonably? can you help me answer some of the uncertainties i have (drastic changes are still a possibility)?

finally thank you all so much for your help, it has been very valuable so far <3

Jul 30th, 2012, 7:04:12 AM	#1
prabhbhambra13 Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 2	My Unnamed Sun Team. Please rate and help me improve it So i built a team around Sun and i want some feedback on it, here we go. Here is the team (screenshots from pokemonshowdown, also i'm sorry that the order of pokemon in the team is all over the place) Cloyster @ Leftovers Trait: Skill Link EVs: 248 HP / 84 Atk / 176 Def Impish Nature - Icicle Spear - Rapid Spin - Spikes - Hydro Pump i wanted to put cloyster in because entry hazards are a huge threat to a sun team (especially Volcarona) and i needed spin support. i added in Spikes so i had some entry hazards to place. icicle spear and hydro pump are pretty standard STAB moves (although hydro pump is weakened in the rain i needed something to deal with enemy fire pkmn trying to take advantage of my sun). i chose to go heavy on HP and defense EVs and give it leftovers to play to cloyster's strengths which is its resilience and longevity. the main point is to keep it alive long enough to provide spin support throughout the game. Starmie @ Leftovers Trait: Natural Cure EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd Timid Nature - Psychic - Ice Beam - Thunderbolt - Rapid Spin again another spin support. i thought i needed another just in case something goes wrong with cloyster i can't be left without spin, this might be overkill though. starmie also has ice blot/beam coverage and a huge speed stat making it pretty good at exploiting weaknesses in opponent teams. i chose to add psychic because hydro pump is weakened in the sun and psychic is another good STAB move (although i'm now second guessing that choice). again leftovers are to help keep it alive for as long as possible. EVs are pretty standard. Dragonite @ Lum Berry Trait: Multiscale EVs: 44 Atk / 212 Spd / 252 HP Adamant Nature - Dragon Dance - Outrage - Fire Punch - Earthquake Dragonite is my non sun dependent sweeper, i chose to go with bulky DD because i want it to tank a few hits while building DD so it can sweep easily. DD is standard. outrage is questionable, it's power is great but i'm not sure if it's worth getting locked into the move (maybe go for dragon claw and then switch lum berry for leftovers?). fire punch provides a pseudo-STAB move. for the last slot i wanted to go for roost to help keep it's hp up while building DD but i ran into a lot of problems for my team from Heatran so i used earthquake to help deal with him. Volcarona @ Leftovers Trait: Flame Body EVs: 240 HP / 216 Def / 52 Spd Bold Nature - Quiver Dance - Fiery Dance - Bug Buzz - Morning Sun Volcarona is a really good fire type sweeper. i again went bulky to give it a chance to build up quiver dances. fiery dance is better than fire blast for its accuracy and possible stat changes. bug buzz is my anti tyranitar move (other weather teams are a threat to the sun so i need to take tyranitar out quickly). morning sun and leftovers again are to help keep it alive (although leftovers are less important due to morning sun, maybe go for a life orb instead?). Ninetales @ Leftovers Trait: Drought EVs: 252 SAtk / 120 Spd / 136 HP Modest Nature - Sunny Day - Energy Ball - Fire Blast - Will-O-Wisp Ninetales is the standard sun inducer, sunny day is there for predicting when the opponent is going to try to negate the sun by switching in other weather inducers. energy ball gives some coverage and can be used to take a quick shot at a politoed switching in, i chose it over solarbeam because i seem to get into a lot of weather wars and solarbeam only excels in the sun making it useless elsewhere. again leftovers and EV choices are so that i keep my weather inducer alive for as long as possible. Venusaur @ Life Orb Trait: Chlorophyll EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd Modest Nature - Growth - SolarBeam - Hidden Power [Fire] - Synthesis Venusaur is great in the sun. he is my cholophyll sweeper but the problem is that out of the sun he's almost useless. growth and synthesis are a lot better in the sun. solarbeam is great in the sun but locks you in when out of the sun. hidden power gives a pseudo-STAB move in the sun but is not great out of the sun. i'm thinking of switching to Giga Drain to give it more use out of the sun (and making it easier to deal with politoed and establish weather control), this then relieves the need for synthesis and frees up a move slot. Threats: the big threat i have encountered are establishing weather control (especially against poiltoed) and water pokemon in general (although this might be fixed with my proposed changes to Venusaur, before i only had starmie's bolt to deal with them). thank you for reading my post and am grateful for any feedback you give

Jul 30th, 2012, 7:43:22 AM	#2
ThatsMyLatios Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 946	Hi, I really like this team but there are few problems that I feel need to be addressed. For starters, your team seems really frustrated by Heatran, this Poke has the ability to wall your Special Sweepers with ease and you only have one way to OHKO it. Another big problem your team has is it's lack of Stealth Rock support. Stealth Rock is regarded as the best move in the game, getting crucial damage on everything that comes in. This move is also crucial for breaking Dragonite's Multiscale. To solve this Problem, I recommend that you replace your Starmie or Cloyster with Dugtrio. The presence of Dugtrio makes your opponent play more cautiously with their Heatran so it will become less troublesome. If you predict a Heatran switch, go straight to Dugtrio who can trap it with it's Arena Trap ability and OHKO with STAB Earthquake. The reason I feel Cloyster or Starmie to be replaced is because I don't feel you need two Rapid Spinner's. Here is the set: Item: Focus Sash Ability: Arena Trap Hasty Nature 252 Atk \| 252 Spe Earthquake Reversal Stealth Rock Memento / Substitute The remaining 4 EVs wont be of any benefit but you could put it anywhere, Personal Choice. Reversal is handy with Substitute because you can Sub down to minimum HP and guarantee the OHKO on a Tyranitar, a fighting move is also helpful for hitting stuff like Hydreigon and the big blobs. You could use Memento because it lower's offensive stats of things that come in trying to set up on Dugtrio. Stealth Rock is of course the most important move in the game. Also, I suggest that you change a few things on you Venusaur. First, as your team already has plenty of Fire attacks I recommend you run Hidden Power Ice > Hidden Power Fire. Using Hidden Power Ice means that you will not be walled by Dragon Types such as Dragonite, Salamence, Hydreigon, and Latios. Hidden Power Ice at +1 also is able to do decent damage to Latias, which can be annoying to your team. Lastly, I think you should use Giga Drain > Solarbeam because it mean's you have a powerful Grass STAB without having to rely on the presence of Sun. Hope this rate helped, good luck with your team! __________________ I lost a bet fk Man U.** Last edited by ThatsMyLatios; Jul 30th, 2012 at 7:46:35 AM. Reason: I spelled Venusaur wrong

Jul 30th, 2012, 8:25:56 AM	#3
Jimbon already over Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 486	Hi there! This is a cool Sun team, spin support meaning that Volcarona and Dragonite will have easy switch ins which can mean lots of opportunities to set up. One thing I do see is a weakness to opposing Dragons. Your main sweeper Venusaur is walled by Dragons with your current moveset, while your own Dragon is relatively slow against other common Dragons such as Latios and Salamence. Either of these can cause huge problems for your team, with no Steel type you really have nothing to switch into either of them, and your only hope is to outspeed with Starmie, meaning Scarf Dragons are even more problematic. You can't really hope to revenge either when Venusaur can't do a lot to them. To help with this weakness, I recommend you try out an Offensive Stealth Rock Mamoswine over your current Cloyster. It does seem a little redundant to me to have two spinners on your team, as one is more than enough. If you play well with Starmie, you shouldn't ever need to Spin with Cloyster, not to mention Cloyster is also weak to hazards while Starmie gets access to Recover and Natural Cure. Offensive Stealth Rock Mamoswine gives you much needed hazards on your team. Unlike Cloyster's previous Spikes, Stealth Rock hits everything, breaking sashes and multiscale is too good to pass up. Additionally, Mamoswine also gives you an additional check to the aforementioned Dragons, with powerful priority it forms as a great revenge killer to most common dragons, clearing the way for Venusaur to sweep. Mamoswine's offensive presence also means that it forces a lot of switches, making it very easy for you to get Stealth Rock up. Mamoswine also deals with Tyranitar and Heatran, both of which are problematic for Sun teams to face. With 3 Pokemon weak to Rapid Spin, you will have a pretty big reliance on your Spinner to remove hazards on your side of the field. Given that this is a Sun team, you will need to get rid of hazards to continuously keep your weather up against opposing weathers. It helps Ninetales to avoid losing 1/4 of it's health every time you switch in, which is very important in weather wars. To help with these problems, I recommend you change your current Starmie to a Defensive Rapid Spin set. Defensive Starmie seems like a much better fit over your current Life Orb set. Given how much you rely on keeping hazards off the field, you will need Starmie to keep spinning away hazards. Starmie is also very frail with your current set, so it will find it hard to Spin when it takes ~50% from every hit, and lacks Recover to keep Spinning. Defensive Starmie clears up all these problems, with Recover it ensures you can keep Starmie around for a long time. By going Defensive, you don't really lose anything. You gain an additional check to Scarf Terrakion, who can revenge everything on your team right now, as well as a more solid check to Dragons. Honestly, there's no need to go fully offensive with Starmie, when Spinning is much more important for your team, and Volcarona and Venusaur already cover the Special Attacker role well enough. Finally, I do think you should change your Venusaur set to be a little more efficient. A set of 80 HP / 252 SAtk / 176 Spe with a Timid Nature seems a lot better for your team. With a Timid Nature and 176 Speed EVs you can outspeed Scarf variants of Terrakion and Latios, both of which are problematic for your team. You also gain some bulk while maximizing offensive power, which is great for switching in on Volt Switches / U-Turns and setting up easier. Your previous set running Modest, Life Orb and Growth does seem a little overkill, while this set Substitutes some of that power into speed giving Venusaur a much better chance at a sweep. Cool team, hope I helped! Sets Starmie @ Leftovers Trait: Natural Cure EVs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 228 Spe Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk) - Psyshock - Ice Beam / Hidden Power [Fire] - Recover - Rapid Spin Mamoswine @ Life Orb Trait: Thick Fat EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SAtk) - Stealth Rock - Ice Shard - Icicle Crash / Superpower - Earthquake __________________

Jul 30th, 2012, 3:04:32 PM	#4
Sayonara into the new world Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 716	Hey, Nice team, prabhbhambra13. I find that your team is really weak against opposing Specially Defensive Heatran, as it completely walls Volcarona, Venusaur, Ninetales and Starmie, while it can easily switch-into Dragonite's Outrage. In Sun, Cloyster's Hydro Pump won't be hitting it hard, and Heatran gets its STAB boosted. I don't really see the need of using 2 Rapid Spin users - Starmie already does a good job at spinning. Another thing I noticed is that you don't have Stealth Rock. This amazing offensive tool would greatly benefit your team, and it prevents opposing Volcarona and Dragonite from getting free switch-ins all the time. To help you deal with Heatran and give your team a Stealth Rock user, I'd recommend a Reversal Dugtrio (see set below) instead of Cloyster. Thanks to Arena Trap, Dugtrio can trap an opponent's Heatran and demolish it with a STAB Earthquake, removing that counter from the game - this greatly helps Volcarona in sweeping. Stealth Rock can easily be set up, and Focus Sash activates when the opponent attacks Dugtrio. When the Focus Sash will be used, Dugtrio will be sitting at 1 HP, which maximizes Reversal's power, and lets Dugtrio annihilate non-Chople Berry Tyranitar, which lets you win the weather war in this situation. Stone Edge is a coverage move that lets you deal with Dragonite / Salamence, who would otherwise use Dugtrio as a set-up fodder. Dugtrio can also be effective in late-game situations, as its 120 Base Speed is really useful to revenge-kill weakened opponents. I'd also second ThatsMyLatios' recommendation of Hidden Power Ice over Hidden Power Fire on Venusaur, as it allows it to get past the plethora of Dragons seen in the metagame. Finally, you may want Psyshock over Psychic on Starmie - this allows it to get past CM Keldeo and Virizion by by-passing their special defense boosts. In addition, Starmie can outspeed them. I find Choice Band Dragonite to be a good fit on your team, as its raw power is devastating for opposing teams, and with Rapid Spin and Stealth Rock support, it can effectively sweep mid-game or late-game. I'd go with Extremespeed over Dragon Dance on the set, and an EV spread of 60 HP / 252 Atk / 196 Spe. Extremespeed hits hard with a Choice Band and is useful to revenge-kill faster and weakened opponents. At the moment, Dragonite doesn't have much of an offensive initial presence, meaning it has to set up in order to do loads of damage, so the extra power would help as a wallbreaker. I don't have much else to add - cool team, and good luck! Hope I helped. Reversal Dugtrio Dugtrio @ Focus Sash \| Arena Trap Jolly \| 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe ~ Reversal ~ Earthquake ~ Stealth Rock ~ Stone Edge Last edited by Sayonara; Jul 30th, 2012 at 4:55:37 PM.

Jul 30th, 2012, 4:09:48 PM	#5
Avatar Korra Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 197 Maryland	Hello! You have a very interesting team! You've already gotten some excellent rates but I'll do my best! I second Jimbon's suggestion of switching Cloyster over for Mamoswine. Cloyster to me seems like a weak link in this team. Cloyster's weakness to common types like Fighting, Grass, and Electric, as well as SR weakness, prevent it from being a truly effective wall. Like Jimbon said, sun teams, yours especially, have issues with Heatran, Tyranitar, and Dragons. Mamoswine effectively fixes this, while still giving you a much needed hazard that is Stealth Rock. This is the set Jimbon suggested which I recommend: Mamoswine @ Life Orb Thick Fat 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe Jolly - Earthquake - Ice Shard - Icicle Crash - Stealth Rock Your reliance on Rapid Spin means you need Starmie to survive as long as possible, so again use Jimbon's set of: Starmie @ Leftovers Trait: Natural Cure EVs: 248 HP / 32 Def / 228 Spe Timid Nature - Psyshock - Hidden Power [Fire] - Recover - Rapid Spin With Sun being out, Hydro Pump will be severely weakened so I don't recommend it. Psyshock makes you an effective check against powerful Fighting type Pokemon like Terrakion and Virizion switching in, and HP Fire can help you take out Scizor and Forretress. Finally, I would switch your Venusaur set heavily. If Mamoswine goes down, you will pretty much lose to any dragon, so it'd be nice to have Venu not completely walled by them. With a Life Orb, Venusaur becomes very powerful and you don't even have to waste time setting up with Growth. I recommend a purely offensive set: Venusaur @ Life Orb Trait: Chlorophyll EVs: 156 Atk / 172 SAtk / 180 Spd Naive Nature - Sleep Powder - SolarBeam - Hidden Power Ice - Earthquake Sleep Powder allows you to pretty much shut down a Pokemon for the rest of the match. Solarbeam hits like a monster and wrecks anything neutral/weak to it. HP Ice is for Dragons and grass types who try and wall Venusaur. Venusaur will still be faster than all scarfed dragons/all dragons with one Dance up with this EV set and sun up. Earthquake is valuable as it causes steel types not to wall Venusaur as well as taking out Tentacruel. My one last suggestion is for Ninetales. I would lose the Sunny Day set, as you should never risk staying in on incoming Tyranitar who try and switch in. I would use a more bulky set, which can cripple dangerous threats and be a more effective sun user that survives much longer. As I said while rating a previous sun team: "The only way I can see Sunny Day used effectively against Tyranitar is to use it if you predict TTar switching in. However, if you're predicting it to switch in anyways, I would rather permanently cripple it with a burn. Besides, Solarbeam I don't think is strong enough to take out TTar anyways, so there's no way I would stay on it to both Sunny Day and then SolarBeam for the no-kill, while it can take out Ninetales whenever it wants." So anyways, Bulky set: Ninetales @ Leftovers Drought 248 HP / 16 Def / 8 SAtk / 220 SDef / 16 Spd Calm Nature - Roar - Will-O-Wisp - Pain Split - Flamethrower Will-O-Wisp is great for crippling dangerous physical threats that like to switch into Ninetails, like Tyranitar. Pain Split is an effective way of healing, ensuring your only 'mon who sets up sun lasts a while, and Roar is good for shuffling around the opponent's team of course. Well, that's all I have to say, I hope my suggestions were helpful ^_^ Last edited by Avatar Korra; Jul 30th, 2012 at 4:43:40 PM.

Jul 30th, 2012, 6:57:34 PM	#6
prabhbhambra13 Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 2	Wow, thanks for all of the great responses. i've made some updates: Dugtrio @ Focus Sash Trait: Arena Trap EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd Jolly Nature - Reversal - Earthquake - Stealth Rock - Stone Edge in for cloyster. helps deal with heatran, adds stealth rock. i prefer dugtrio over the suggestions of mamoswine because i think i have dealt with the possibility of dragons later on in the edits Starmie @ Leftovers Trait: Natural Cure EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd Timid Nature - Psyshock - Ice Beam - Recover - Rapid Spin added psyshock rather than psychic, switched thunderbolt to recover to increase longevity. i didn't add hidden power fire because i think i already have enough fire moves in this team. it feels very fragile though, whenever it's used to do anything rather than spin and then switch out it dies pretty easily, is that just something i have be smart about and just live with? Dragonite @ Leftovers Trait: Multiscale EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 212 Spd Adamant Nature - Dragon Dance - Outrage - Fire Punch - Earthquake switched to leftovers rather than lum. i tried the choice band set in a few matches and to be honest i prefer bulky dd, i'm still up in the air about choice band/extremespeed though, maybe some more games with it will convince me to switch. Volcarona @ Leftovers Trait: Flame Body EVs: 240 HP / 216 Def / 52 Spd Bold Nature - Quiver Dance - Fiery Dance - Bug Buzz - Morning Sun went untouched because it's awesome Ninetales @ Leftovers Trait: Drought EVs: 136 HP / 252 SAtk / 120 Spd Modest Nature - Fire Blast - Energy Ball - Will-O-Wisp - Hypnosis switched sunny day (was pretty useless at the time) for hypnosis, new plan is to burn or put to sleep incoming weather threats. i'm still not sure about this though, i have no idea what to put as the last move. Roar and Pain Split were suggested but i'm not sure about them, i don't like the randomness of roar and i don't think that pain split is a very reliable way of healing. ninetales seems to be the hardest aspect of this team to figure out, it doesn't seen to have a role outside of changing the weather. Venusaur @ Life Orb Trait: Chlorophyll EVs: 80 HP / 252 SAtk / 176 Spd Timid Nature - Growth - Giga Drain - Hidden Power [Ice] - Synthesis changed hidden power type and solarbeam for giga drain to help against dragons and it's general usefulness outside of the sun, it also counters politoed more efficiently. tweaked EVs to be more efficient. so those are the changes, do you think i've covered my weaknesses reasonably? can you help me answer some of the uncertainties i have (drastic changes are still a possibility)? finally thank you all so much for your help, it has been very valuable so far <3