The UU Viability Ranking Thread

[PK Gaming]

UU Viability Ranking Thread

Welcome to the official UU Viability Rankings topic! In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." Ever wonder to yourself just how good Ambipom really is? Maybe you think Porygon-Z is the hottest thing since sliced bread and you kind sort of want others to know that. Well wonder no more! You no longer have to keep your shitty opinions to yourself. In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in UU and what tier they should fall under.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each UU pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.
EX: Victini can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat, Froslass can be ranked in A tier as supportive threat and Snorlax can also be ranked in A tier as a defensive threat. Note: These are just examples.

Note that the overall tier list is in no particular order.

MUST READ

Originally Posted by Fat Guidelines from Flareblitz

..okay. Since it's apparent that everyone will want their "favorites" moved up until nothing exists in any rank below C, I'm going to try to introduce some objectivity into these proceedings.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are typically inferior to the Pokemon in the above ranks.

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current UU metagame, but have very noticable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.

PRELIMINARY BW UU Ranking tier list V1

(Subject to change & in alphabetical order for now!)


S Rank

• Kingdra
• Mienshao
• Raikou
• Snorlax
• Togekiss
• Victini
• Zapdos

A rank

• Azelf
• Chandelure
• Cofagrigus
• Crobat
• Darmanitan
• Flygon
• Froslass
• Heracross
• Mew
• Rhyperior
• Roserade
• Sharpedo
• Shaymin
• Slowbro
• Slowking
• Swampert
• Venomoth
• Weavile

B Rank

• Abomasnow
• Arcanine
• Azumarill
• Blastoise
• Bronzong
• Cincinno
• Cresselia
• Cobalion
• Druddigon
• Empoleon
• Escavalier
• Honchkrow
• Lilligant
• Machamp
• Meloetta
• Nidoking
• Nidoqueen
• Porygon-2
• Porygon-Z
• Qwilfish
• Rotom-H
• Sableye
• Scrafty
• Suicune
• Tornadus
• Umbreon
• Virizion
• Yanmega
• Zoroark

C Rank

• Ambipom
• Amoonguss
• Bisharp
• Clefable
• Durant
• Gligar
• Galvantula
• Golurk
• Hitmontop
• Houndoom
• Krookodile
• Milotic
• Mismagius
• Registeel
• Rotom-F
• Rotom-C
• Sceptile
• Tangrowth
• Walrein
• Xatu

D Rank

• Claydol
• Cryogonal
• Magneton
• Dusclops

Rules
~Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will not be tolerated
~No flaming
~Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
~No talk about editing the OFFICIAL smogon tier lists.

Happy posting ♪

[kokoloko*]

Just a warning, I will be moderating this thread closely. No stupid posts, please.

PS. That doesn't mean your posts have to be tl;dr to be acceptable.

That is all.

[Pokemazter]

I feel that Sharpedo and Yanmega could be moved up to A Rank, simply because they can rip apart teams. All it takes is for their one respective wall - as common teams rarely carry two Pokemon to take on these threats - to take moderate damage, anywhere in the neighbourhood of 60% damage. Yanmega can potentially beat Snorlax 1-on-1, provided that some Bug Buzz or Air Slash hax does pull through (which it seems to happen more than it should), and Gligar can't take Sharpedo on for a shit really. Cofagrigus doesn't like taking more than a single Crunch from Sharpedo as well, and Will-O-wisp is unfortuntely, one of those moves that cannot be relied on. Both Yanmega and Sharpedo are very potent Pokemon that carry an immediate punch and can quickly outspeed every scarfer in the tier.

And hell, they're cool as fuck, so why not?

[LucaroarkZ]

As of now, I honestly think Claydol should be moved to E Rank - Honestly, I think it's just that bad. It can't spin worth a damn (it literally attracts Ghost-types, lol), it has a ton of exploitable weaknesses (which often makes taking some special attacks difficult, such as... Well, a lot of shit, do I need to go down the entire list?), outclassed as a spinner by Blastoise, and its offensive presence basically equates to zero. Doesn't really have any positive points, I guess it can both spin and set up SR but if you're that strapped for team slots then your team probably needs a second look. I honestly think it's just as bad, if not worse, than Dusclops.

[FelixMinamimoto]

Preliminary analyses for Meloetta, Tornadus-I, and Virizion:

Tornadus-I: A-rank, could move up to S-rank depending on its ability to consistently abuse weather or free turns for subs/bulk-ups. I would still argue it needs some support to be fully effective so I don't want to put it at S-rank quite yet. Will be interested to see the niche that Sableye takes if Tornadus-I becomes very common.

Meloetta: B-rank. Definitely fulfills a niche but the issue I've always had with Meloetta is it is hard to be not bad at using Meloetta. It has a niche on some rain teams and can be a really devastating sweeper if and only if it is played PERFECTLY. I think it will underwhelm and is not worthy of a higher ranking.

Virizion: Ahh, Virizion. You tricky creature. I have been underestimating it from the beginning and I would probably B-rank it despite how much better it is than Meloetta. It definitely could go to A-rank if one of its sets proves more dangerous than expected/not horribly beaten by the Crobats that should be more prevalent. It also checks all of the water types nicely so it will have some free turns. That one I will leave up to debate but I might hesitantly put it at A-rank as well.

Sub-Petaya Empoleon is a really REALLY underrated threat in this meta (as it was in DPP OU as well.) I might want to hesitantly move it up to B-rank. The only issue I ever had with using it was needing a better Moxie Hera check/counter on my team, but that's a teambuilding issue. The Pokemon itself is excellent.

[Machi]

Originally Posted by Fat Pokemazter

I feel that Sharpedo and Yanmega could be moved up to A Rank, simply because they can rip apart teams. All it takes is for their one respective wall - as common teams rarely carry two Pokemon to take on these threats - to take moderate damage, anywhere in the neighbourhood of 60% damage. Yanmega can potentially beat Snorlax 1-on-1, provided that some Bug Buzz or Air Slash hax does pull through (which it seems to happen more than it should), and Gligar can't take Sharpedo on for a shit really. Cofagrigus doesn't like taking more than a single Crunch from Sharpedo as well, and Will-O-wisp is unfortuntely, one of those moves that cannot be relied on. Both Yanmega and Sharpedo are very potent Pokemon that carry an immediate punch and can quickly outspeed every scarfer in the tier.

And hell, they're cool as fuck, so why not?

I agree with Sharpedo but definitely not with Yanmega. I always found the coverage of Bug/Flying STAB and coverage of Grass(or whatever HP you decide over gigadrain) to be quite limited as compared to Sharpedo's Dark & Water STABS in addition to coverage of Ground/Ice (with the bonus of having the option to be either a physical or special sweeper). More importantly Dark/Water check super effectively the bigger fire threats which Yanmega does have some difficulty breaking through, as they can easily potentially check Yanmega by tanking a hit provided healthy (clearly Darm/Victini/Lure can't exactly tank an LO waterfall/crunch even when healthy)

Moreover, Sharpedo does not have 50% of its HP (even if Sharp is weak to all forms of hazards at the very least it still won't add up to 50% with full layers not that you would give them the chance to do so, while SR by itself can be tricky to remove due to such a plethora of users and easy mind games as compared to stacking spikes) stripped by SR, giving more viability to LO sets. Whenever I do encounter Yanmega LO sets its usually as a lead but unfortunately that makes picking it off much easier since all my potential checks or counters are still in full health. Lefties sets tend to be rather weak and frankly are quite easily walled.

[RabidChipmunk]

Originally Posted by Fat Machi

I agree with Sharpedo but definitely not with Yanmega. I always found the coverage of Bug/Flying STAB and coverage of Grass(or whatever HP you decide over gigadrain) to be quite limited as compared to Sharpedo's Dark & Water STABS in addition to coverage of Ground/Ice (with the bonus of having the option to be either a physical or special sweeper). More importantly Dark/Water check super effectively the bigger fire threats which Yanmega does have some difficulty breaking through, as they can easily potentially check Yanmega by tanking a hit provided healthy (clearly Darm/Victini/Lure can't exactly tank an LO waterfall/crunch even when healthy)

Moreover, Sharpedo does not have 50% of its HP (even if Sharp is weak to all forms of hazards at the very least it still won't add up to 50% with full layers not that you would give them the chance to do so, while SR by itself can be tricky to remove due to such a plethora of users and easy mind games as compared to stacking spikes) stripped by SR, giving more viability to LO sets. Whenever I do encounter Yanmega LO sets its usually as a lead but unfortunately that makes picking it off much easier since all my potential checks or counters are still in full health. Lefties sets tend to be rather weak and frankly are quite easily walled.

Yeah, with this in mind, I'd even suggest moving Yanmega down to "C." It only has one major flaw, but that one major flaw is losing half of it's damn health because it had the nerve to enter the field. You either have to lead with it and just do as much damage as possible before you choke, or bring it in late game enough that, even at half health, you can still sweep up before you die (but at that point, couldn't just about anything else sweep just as well?).

I think Sharpedo is good with being B class though. Yeah, once he gets going, he absolutely demolishes, but he requires a lot of team support and doesn't offer much of it in return except for just being a sweeper. Plus priority ruins his life unless he has Aqua Jet.

Also, I don't get the hype about Froslass. Being able to set up spikes and spinblock at the same time isn't as cool as it sounds when whatever you're spin blocking would rather just kill you because you're frail as hell. I guess it makes a good suicide lead, but if the other team has a spinner then there's really no point in that strategy.

[Pokemazter]

Originally Posted by Fat Machi

I agree with Sharpedo but definitely not with Yanmega. I always found the coverage of Bug/Flying STAB and coverage of Grass(or whatever HP you decide over gigadrain) to be quite limited as compared to Sharpedo's Dark & Water STABS in addition to coverage of Ground/Ice (with the bonus of having the option to be either a physical or special sweeper). More importantly Dark/Water check super effectively the bigger fire threats which Yanmega does have some difficulty breaking through, as they can easily potentially check Yanmega by tanking a hit provided healthy (clearly Darm/Victini/Lure can't exactly tank an LO waterfall/crunch even when healthy)

Moreover, Sharpedo does not have 50% of its HP (even if Sharp is weak to all forms of hazards at the very least it still won't add up to 50% with full layers not that you would give them the chance to do so, while SR by itself can be tricky to remove due to such a plethora of users and easy mind games as compared to stacking spikes) stripped by SR, giving more viability to LO sets. Whenever I do encounter Yanmega LO sets its usually as a lead but unfortunately that makes picking it off much easier since all my potential checks or counters are still in full health. Lefties sets tend to be rather weak and frankly are quite easily walled.

Originally Posted by Fat RabidChipmunk

Yeah, with this in mind, I'd even suggest moving Yanmega down to "C." It only has one major flaw, but that one major flaw is losing half of it's damn health because it had the nerve to enter the field. You either have to lead with it and just do as much damage as possible before you choke, or bring it in late game enough that, even at half health, you can still sweep up before you die (but at that point, couldn't just about anything else sweep just as well?).

I think Sharpedo is good with being B class though. Yeah, once he gets going, he absolutely demolishes, but he requires a lot of team support and doesn't offer much of it in return except for just being a sweeper. Plus priority ruins his life unless he has Aqua Jet.

Right from Flareblitz's guidelines, but;

Originally Posted by Fat Dem Guidelines

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

All Yanmega and Sharpedo really need to sweep is Stealth Rock support, Rapid Spin support, and the removal or damaging of Empoleon, Snorlax, and Porygon2. With those elements, they're set to sweep. Last time I checked, that's two, three Pokemon maximum (I'm thinking something like Nidoking and Hitmontop?) Once these Pokemon hit two boosts, you literally need a Choice Scarf Crobat, which is completely non-viable, or Priority moves, which are rare on their own, to keep up with these things. Support from two Pokemon is not a lot, and I stress that both of you reconsider your stance on both Sharpedo and Yanmega, the latter especially. They're both extensively powerful given three situations, and as I said in my first post, they don't need those three Pokemon beaten (Empoleon, probably, especially in Sharpedo's case), as they can do it on their own, but appreciate the help. If you spend time using them, you'll understand that they're VERY good, and can really wreck hell on most teams, as most teams typically don't have a plan for Sharpedo and Yanmega.

I'm not pushing for these Pokemon to be put into the S Rank. They aren't that good, and do require too much support for that tier. However, I feel that the B Rank isn't exactly fair for these two Pokemon, considering that with two teammates giving them what they need is enough to win them the match.

[SJCrew]

Zoroark is about as effective as the C-tier titans right now. Its Dark Pulse is weak and doesn't hit anything relevant for good damage. Everything on the enemy team needs to be at about 50% for it to be a serious threat due to how poor its damage output is. On top of that, it is simply Heracross bait. You can switch him right in without much risk. To compare with another C-tier: if Mismagius is a threat to your team, Zoroark is a threat to your team.

Nidoking and Nidoqueen should be in the same tier. I understand that some players are starting to prefer Queen right now because she switches into ScarfCross better. However, she is ineffective at dealing with non-Scarfed Cross due to the massive amount of damage she takes from SD and Band, two sets Nidoking can actually face. She is also checked by Chandelure, Kindra, Honchkrow, and Nidoking himself, three Pokemon Nidoqueen has no hope of beating. Speed does matter.

@ Pokemazter: Yanmega is checked by a lot more than that. Zapdos, Bisharp, Honchkrow, Registeel, defensive Nidoqueen to name a handful.

Even with Registeel being the least viable of these, it's even worse if you run into a low ranking player and lose because you have no way to get past him.

[Machi]

@ Pokemazter: That is just it about the guidelines Yanmega as I've said just has much poorer coverage than Sharpedo that it doesn't sweep a significant portion of the metagame. Yanmega also won't certainly dent a significant portion of the metagame as compared to Sharpedo, which I am at agreement with you he does deserve a higher rank. There are far more things that Yanmega simply cannot pick off as neatly as Sharpedo does late game. You yourself used Air Slash Flinch as a possible way to net some clean cut KOs but frankly I wouldn't rely on that chance of flinch with Yanmega given how frail it is so that if the opposing mon doesn't flinch you're more likely screwed, Sharpedo on the on the hand you don't really rely on flinching to eliminate mons just that they are at a certain HP level for you to KO (and Sharpedo does surprisingly, too lazy to run calcs, does much heavier damage to Snorlax) just his plain power alone that you know he can sweep a significant portion.

SR just kind of seals the deal for me in that at the very least Sharpedo doesn't need to rely on as much support as Yanmega does. Meaning Sharpedo can frankly do his job most of the time precisely as he requires far less than Yanmega, I would say the most important support Sharpedo needs is protection from priority but Yanmega can easily also fall to priority anyways so its not like they do not have this in common.

[Forsety]

I'm not too sure it's a good idea to disinclude some of the RU offerings, since I see stuff like Qwilfish, Sceptile and Tangrowth also making their rounds in UU with good effect....are we adding RU's if they can hack it in UU too?

Sharpedo is a definite A rank hell I'd go as far to say it's very high end A rank. Sharp is one of these offensive threats that can turn an entire match around even if you've been losing all game.

Nidoqueen/king should be in the same rank, there is no way you can have one higher than the other because they too similar, it's a matter of preference with these two. Whether they're A or B rank though I think is up for debate, both are a tad bit slow but they definitely do sweep.

Umbreon is a B rank at least, Umb is hands down the best cleric in the whole tier. Umbreon doesn't have crippling flaws so to speak and it does wall a huge majority of the special attackers in UU even better than Snorlax does.

Druddigon could probably stand to drop to C rank the thing does have some pretty huge flaws and often you can easily replace it with something else.

Empoleon should be moved upto B rank minimum, it's a bad joke to even say anything could do the same thing as it by merit of it's stats and typing alone. It is a very powerful support and defensive pillar of any team and if you so wish can be offensive too.

Scrafty should go down to B rank sad to say but UU's environment is not friendly to any form of Scrafty at all. Whilst it is dangerous it gets eaten alive by all the fighters and birds, then to amplify this problem some of the best special attackers can generally rip it into shreds. Scrafty is a very good pokemon in a terrible environment.

Weaville is an easy A rank, all it really needs is SR in check and it'll be the end of you.

Porygon-Z up to B rank, you're trying to tell me you're not terrified of a Download Tri-Attack coming your way? Only real reason it doesn't get used is because Chandelure is a better nuke, that isn't to say Pory-Z is any less if it's a Normal nuke you need instead.

[PK Gaming]

There are ton of Pokemon to discuss and go over(^_^), but right now i'm going to start with the Pokemon I have the most experience using; Zoroark.

SJC, before we jam I want to point out that, Pokemon Showdown has implemented a new feature that allows you to change the order of your entire team before a match. I hope I don't have to tell you the ramifications of this. Before this change, Zoroark had to contend with the fact that it couldn't use Illusion effectively in the early game, and no i'm not just talking about leads. You could effectively rig it so Zoroark could come out as Pokemon of your choosing at anytime, after a KO, whereas before you were kind of stuck with the team order, and it was too much of a hassle to change it up. It's been ~3 years, but we finally have a simulator that fully supports Illusion. So basically, from this point on, Zoroark is a lot trickier to handle than ever. That is, until noobs start shying away from being scrubby, scrub scrub scrubs.

As for Dark STAB not being all to useful, need I remind you that Zoroark is one of the few Pokemon that can actually check Mew, a Pokemon that is inarguably the single best threat in the tier right now? Oh and its decent against Cofagrigus which is nice (ninja'd). I'd wager that most teams definitely appreciate having a Pokemon that can (usually) switch inro Mew, always outspeed and and OHKO with it's STAB move (granted its from Specs Dark Pulse... Mew's a bulky mofo). I'd even argue that Zoroark is one of the best offensive Mew check in the game right now. You could say that Heracross is a decent check to Zoroark but I wouldn't say is complete Heracross fodderl - the central difference between Zoroark and some other Dark-type like Krook here is that Heracross (initially) has no idea which Pokemon is Zoroark, so it doesn't have to worry about switching into its STAB immediately. There's also the fact that Flamethrower rips it a new one, though that's only relevant on Sub sets. Speaking of Sub sets, sub sets are really solid on Zoroark why the hell aren't they used more? Considering how frail it is, and it's unique ability Sub is just ridiculously handy in this metagame. I'll admit that it's a little lacking in power, but it's not exactly supposed to sweep (unless you pull off a sub NP) and on average it acts like a sniper, picking off unaware threats. 105 is a slick speed stat, so there's that as well.

The real problem with Zoroark is how frail it is. You can't make any mistakes when using it or it'll die. It's OHKOed by unboosted Raikou's Thunderbolt for gods sakes. If I were to arbitrarily state where I find it in B-tier, i'd say its lower B tier definitely.

I'm not too sure it's a good idea to disinclude some of the RU offerings, since I see stuff like Qwilfish, Sceptile and Tangrowth also making their rounds in UU with good effect....are we adding RU's if they can hack it in UU too?

Absolutely. I didn't add them initially because that would take forrrrreeeeevverrrrr. Here's how it works; Suggest an RU Pokemon & a tier placement and give an argument for them.

[LucaroarkZ]

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

Zoroark is about as effective as the C-tier titans right now. Its Dark Pulse is weak and doesn't hit anything relevant for good damage. Everything on the enemy team needs to be at about 50% for it to be a serious threat due to how poor its damage output is. On top of that, it is simply Heracross bait. You can switch him right in without much risk. To compare with another C-tier: if Mismagius is a threat to your team, Zoroark is a threat to your team.

You know SJCrew, no offense intended, but I just don't think you're using Zoroark right (if using it at all). First, the claim that it is Heracross bait is false; Pretty much every Zoroark runs Flamethrower unless it's running Substitute + Nasty Plot. Second, I don't think you're taking Illusion into account (yes, it is a viable strategy). What if you switch your Cofagrigus into that Heracross, but it's actually a Choice Specs Zoroark and your Cofagrigus gets smashed by Dark Pulse? Nidoqueen switching in on Heracross? Not if it's a Specs Zoroark! It's getting 2HKOed by Dark Pulse as it switches in. Gligar? One of two things will happen: 1. Gligar gets 2HKOed by Dark Pulse, or 2. Gligar gets crippled by Trick. Even if the opponent predicts it to be Zoroark, you can just cripple Hitmontop and stuff like that with Trick, and Snorlax simply isn't switching in on Focus Blast, ever. That's not what I define as "low damage output". I'm fine with Zoroark being B Rank, but it is certainly good enough to be above C Rank. According to the definition for B Rank:

Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Zoroark does properly fulfill a given offensive niche: Illusion.

edit: Ninja'd by PK Gaming

[spuds4ever]

porygon-2 for A because it walls so many special attackers or just takes loads of neutral hits and hits back really hard.

Bisharp should definitely be B though and A for durant. Steel is a really good type in UU and bisharp still hits really hard and can tank hits well, and isn't hazard weak, making him a really good offensive pivot IMO. Durant just kills everything. That should easily make it A

Edit: Zoroark is pretty good, and having a good mew check is handy, but it needs a lot of support to function well so I think it's good in B. Illusion isn't really a niche tbh. It's a handy bonus, but is very reliant on team support and if used in the correct circumstances, is usually pretty predictable too (i.e, that player isn't going to sweep with their real heracross seeing as I have a cofagrigus or whatever so I'm not going to switch it into that zoroark).

[TPO3]

I'd like to see Scrafty moved down to B-rank, it's been thoroughly discussed already. It is a great pokemon, but the current UU meta just seems to be anti-scrafty right now. Fighting types like Heracross, Mienshao, and Machamp are basically on every other team. Crobat is popular and checks it completely, and Tornadus-I just got introduced. Not to mention the pokemon with huge special attacks (Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Zapdos, etc.) are going to just overpower it. Again, it's a great pokemon, but there's just too much going against it right now.

I don't have a ton of experience with RU pokemon in UU myself, but I could potentially see Qwilfish being either a B threat or a C threat. It sets up spikes, Intimidate along with the amount of Fighting-types in the tier gives it multiple opportunities to switch in, and thanks to move tutors it can use Pain Split in addition to Spikes. Its only downfall is that it has 4 moveslot syndrome, I always find myself wanting a 5th move between Spikes, Taunt, Pain Split, STAB attack, and a Status move. Either way, it can still be a fantastic check to Heracross, Mienshao, Darmanitan, Victini, Snorlax, and many other physical attackers in the tier. It definitely doesn't have the base stats to go above B threat, but I could see it as B or C level.

[DTC]

No Slowking or Slowbro?

Agreeing with the Empoleon support; SubPetaya and Choice Specs Empoleon (why don't people use this more often?) are monsters. It has stellar stats, typing, and movepool. It also has fantastic support moves that some other Water-types don't have such as Stealth Rock and Roar. The Fighting- and Ground-type weakness is annoying, but overall I'd say Steel helps Empoleon more than hurts it because it gives Empoleon so many useful resistances, such as Flying and Dragon. It also makes Empoleon one of the best Pokemon to check Crobat as it can easily 2HKO Crobat with its offensive sets, burn it with Scald on a defensive set, and tank Brave Birds reasonably well. It may be A tier material, but B tier would be a good place for it now. Much better than C tier.

[RabidChipmunk]

Originally Posted by Fat spuds4ever

Bisharp should definitely be B though and A for durant. Steel is a really good type in UU and bisharp still hits really hard and can tank hits well, and isn't hazard weak, making him a really good offensive pivot IMO. Durant just kills everything. That should easily make it A.

I'm inclined to disagree about Bisharp. Yeah, Steel's a cool type, but in the Fighting-type saturated UU tier, it can really hurt it, especially since Bisharp is 4x weak to them, they resist his main STAB in Sucker Punch, and he's slow. Bisharp has the same problem Honchkrow has in that when you rely on Sucker Punch for your main STAB, it brings too many mind games to the table (but at least Honchkrow also gets Brave Bird. Bisharp gets... Iron Head? Lolz). Admittedly the mind games do go both ways, but why force yourself to play mind games at all when you can just use Heracross or something and press the "Kill His Dick" button? Sucker Punch is good for utility, but not for your primary attacking move.

Durant sucks. Hustle is really more trouble than it's worth, especially since he has to set up a Hone Claws to compensate for it, making him, again, extremely predictable. He doesn't even get that great of STAB moves, either: X-Scissor and... Iron Head? Lolz.

[spuds4ever]

Originally Posted by Fat RabidChipmunk

I'm inclined to disagree about Bisharp. Yeah, Steel's a cool type, but in the Fighting-type saturated UU tier, it can really hurt it, especially since Bisharp is 4x weak to them, they resist his main STAB in Sucker Punch, and he's slow. Bisharp has the same problem Honchkrow has in that when you rely on Sucker Punch for your main STAB, it brings too many mind games to the table (but at least Honchkrow also gets Brave Bird. Bisharp gets... Iron Head? Lolz). Admittedly the mind games do go both ways, but why force yourself to play mind games at all when you can just use Heracross or something and press the "Kill His Dick" button? Sucker Punch is good for utility, but not for your primary attacking move.

Durant sucks. Hustle is really more trouble than it's worth, especially since he has to set up a Hone Claws to compensate for it, making him, again, extremely predictable. He doesn't even get that great of STAB moves, either: X-Scissor and... Iron Head? Lolz.

Sucker punch works very nicely though with the steel typing as it makes it really good for absorbing outrages. Substitute is also a very good solution to this and it easily gets one up, especially if you run air balloon. Honestly, fighting types aren't that big a deal. Mienshao still can't switch in to save it's life. Sucker punch is still a guarenteed OHKO after a SD boost and a LO, heracross is taken out by iron head+sucker punch combo and scrafty is OHKOed by a +2 iron head. To be honest, not that many things can do something to bisharp that will save them from sucker punch. Substitute isn't that common, paralysis isn't too big of a deal, and ghosts that can burn have trouble switching in. Bisharp's largest trouble is probably getting through bulky waters.

From what it sounds like, you have very little experience with using durant. Literally everything in the tier bar max/max cofagrigus has a chance of being 2hkoed with its CB set with SR up, something I don't think anything else in the whole tier can boast. Couple that with a speed stat that tops things like mienshao and such, and you'll see why it is so dangerous.

[RabidChipmunk]

Originally Posted by Fat spuds4ever

Sucker punch works very nicely though with the steel typing as it makes it really good for absorbing outrages. Substitute is also a very good solution to this and it easily gets one up, especially if you run air balloon. Honestly, fighting types aren't that big a deal. Mienshao still can't switch in to save it's life. Sucker punch is still a guarenteed OHKO after a SD boost and a LO, heracross is taken out by iron head+sucker punch combo and scrafty is OHKOed by a +2 iron head. To be honest, not that many things can do something to bisharp that will save them from sucker punch. Substitute isn't that common, paralysis isn't too big of a deal, and ghosts that can burn have trouble switching in. Bisharp's largest trouble is probably getting through bulky waters.

From what it sounds like, you have very little experience with using durant. Literally everything in the tier bar max/max cofagrigus has a chance of being 2hkoed with its CB set with SR up, something I don't think anything else in the whole tier can boast. Couple that with a speed stat that tops things like mienshao and such, and you'll see why it is so dangerous.

Okay, I'll concede to you most of your points, cuz I guess I'm agreeable like that. Personally, I don't find tanking Outrages to be that important in UU, since the only Pokemon using it are Kingdra (who I will admit can't really do much to Bisharp if it's physical) and Flygon (who'd rather just use Earthquake or, if you're using a balloon, Fire Punch).

It's true, I have little experience using and facing Durant. I've come across a couple people using it, but it never found a way to give me trouble (then again, I had a Cofagrigus, 'nuff said). So I guess the question I have to ask, and this is one out of genuine curiosity, is what can Durant do that makes it worth using over Heracross? Heracross has much better STAB options and while it doesn't have that nifty Steel typing that Durant has, just slap a choice scarf on him and he doesn't have to care anymore. Plus, CB Durant doesn't sound too enticing when literally every move on your moveset has the same accuracy as Stone Edge.

[TPO3]

Durant is too inconsistent to be A-tier worthy. Hustle means none of its moves are more accurate than Stone Edge until it gets a Hone Claws up, and even then you still have a chance to miss. Not to mention it's 4X weak to fire, and fire resists BOTH of its STABS, so Darmanitan, Chandelure, and Intimidate Arcanine are going to have a field day against it. And its secial bulk is simply appalling. Any special attack not named "Grass Knot" is going to do massive amounts of damage, if not KOing it outright. I could potentially see Durant as a C-tier simply because it really is that powerful between +1 Attack (with either CB or Hone Claws), base 109 attack, and Hustle, but its lame special bulk, inaccurate moves, and weak attacks (X-Scissor, Iron Head, Elemental Fangs, and Rock Slide) are flaws that are going to get it every time.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely outclassed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

[SJCrew]

To expand on what Spuds said about team support, I think Illusion is a decent trick at best, but it only has one turn to make any magic to happen. The gambit therein is whether or not your opponent will do exactly what you want them to. If they have multiple checks to the same Pokemon, they'll simply send out the one that incurs the least risk switching into Zoroark (bearing in mind we already know it's there because of the preview). For example, Crobat and Cofagrigus are on a team. Why send out the Zoroark bait first? Send in Crobat to take whatever Zoro throws at it (or doesn't because it's setting up) and kill it with Brave Bird or U-turn out into the Zoro check. There's also the possibility that the Pokemon that's being revenged doesn't want to switch out, meaning they could attack as you Nasty Plot and reveal you right away. Then you are stuck with the C-tier Pokemon instead of the Master of Illusions.

Zoroark is highly dependent on the amount of support it receives and the moves your opponent makes. In or out of Illusion, he still has the same inherent flaws (low damage without setup, poor defenses) and his strategy can be disrupted pretty easily. Bottom B is agreeable if we had to get down to it, but in that case I would also like to see some of the B-tier Pokemon improve a grade (Porygon2, Honchkrow).

[Ernesto]

I suppose that you just forgot about Slowbro, but I think that it could easily be A rank. I reckon it has trouble walling things when it loses one on one to the top three most used Pokés, but with a little support (like the removal of Toxic Spikes or a cleric, incidentally both niches can be fulfilled by Roserade) and good prediction, it can continue walling throughout the whole match. I'm mostly familiar with the CM set and it has granted me many sweeps, while I reckon that my team was built around it. The good thing about Slowbro is, if by any misprediction or good move of the opponent you switch into Scarf Heracross' Megahorn or something like that, it can survive it even after SR and switch back out to heal 33% of its health: that shows resilience. Heck, it doesn't die to LO Raikou's Thunderbolts, though I wouldn't recommend switching in on it.

I couldn't agree more with the Pokés on the S tier, though frankly I've never had much trouble with any of them (I'm not counting Mew because people have just realised it's back among us, really in all day I only battled one). I suppose Crobat is there due to its defensive capabilities and for being a great Stallbreaker, it's not much of a threat offensively (though it gives tremendous support for a fellow sweeper to go past things like Gligar, after it has broken them with a combination of Taunt and Super Fang). Zapdos is also amazing defensively, being able to actually survive two SE from Scarf Heracross provided Stealth Rock is off the field, while it can also do some damage with an offensive set (then again, it's attacking prowess alone only gets it so far). I'm a bit iffy with Raikou since it just can't get past Snorlax (and since Gothitelle is banned, there are few ways to take it out of the way). The same could be said about Hera, but it poses a much more immediate threat, while Gligar is much easier to deal with (Cofagrigus could prove to be a full counter, it's like a physical Snorlax that way).

That's all I have for now, if I think of something else I'll add it... Great job, either way!

[PK Gaming]

sorry for not updating this yesterday, i ran into "complications."

UU
Changes:

Moved Empoleon up from C tier ==> B tier
Moved Scrafty down from A tier ==> B tier
Moved Sharpedo up from B tier ==> A tier
Added Slowbro to A tier

Potential Changes:

Moving Zoroark down from B tier == > C tier
Moving Weavile up from B tier ==> A tier

RU

Changes:

Adding Durant to C tier
Added Qwilfish to C tier
Added Cryogenal to D tier
Added Galvantula to B tier
Added Rotom-C to C tier

Potential Changes:
Moving Durant to B tier

---

Nidoking vs Nidoqueen: I want to dispel the notion that Nidoqueen is just a different flavored Nidoking. Because it's not, Nidoqueen is above and beyond King in UU imo. Some of UU's best players like FlareBlitz (to my knowledge) and some others (which I won't name atm) have been eschewing King in favor of Queen simply due to how much more effective it is. Queen is more or less comparable in power to King if it's running Modest nature, and it's significantly more durable, which does in fact matter since it lets check significantly more threats (Heracross anyone?) and is harder to OHKO in general. The speed loss is unfortunate, but I don't feel like the increase in speed is enough to justify placing King on par with Queen. Let's not kid ourselves, 85 speed is still "unimpressive" by UU standards and I personally I don't an overwhelming need to be fast in that speed tier. SJCrew, Nidoqueen naturally outspeeds Honckrow so i'm not sure it's beaten by it any more than King who takes 30% more damage from it's attacks in general. Nidoqueen's noticeable increase in bulk and comparable power (but slight drop in speed) makes it a better pick than Nidoking by far.

[SJCrew]

Nidoqueen is enjoying the perks of checking the most dominant Pokemon in UU, just as Crobat and Cofagrigus are, but let's put things in perspective: she's an okay-to-mediocre check to anything that isn't Heracross and there are plenty of Pokemon that can take advantage of her low speed. I already named Kingdra, Honchkrow, Nidoking, and Chandelure; then there's Togekiss, Suicune, Gligar, and Adamant Arcanine (Flare Blitz: 73.5% - 86.9%). That's an awful lot of Pokemon to be slower than and threatened by.

Something else to consider: max HP/Sp Att Modest Nidoking takes the same 3HKO from Adamant Hera's CC that Nidoqueen does after rocks, but outspeeds min Speed Gligar and Suicune with 4 Speed EVs while OHKOing Slowbro with Tbolt after rocks and having a better chance to OHKO Bronzong with Fire Blast. You can give him the same physical bulk as Nidoqueen while maintaining a significant Sp. Att and Speed lead. Give that some thought.

[PK Gaming]

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

Nidoqueen is enjoying the perks of checking the most dominant Pokemon in UU, just as Crobat and Cofagrigus are, but let's put things in perspective: she's an okay-to-mediocre check to anything that isn't Heracross and there are plenty of Pokemon that can take advantage of her low speed. I already named Kingdra, Honchkrow, Nidoking, and Chandelure; then there's Togekiss, Suicune, Gligar, and Adamant Arcanine (Flare Blitz: 73.5% - 86.9%). That's an awful lot of Pokemon to be slower than and threatened by.

Yes but you failed to consider that Nidoqueen is primarily an offensive Pokemon. I'm referring to 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe 100 / 252 / 156. It's a powerful special attacker that can pull double duty as a good Hera check, and decent check to Electric-types is what makes it more noticeably more useful than Nidoking. Also give me a break, Togekiss, Suicune and Gligar (Gligar, really dude) rarely, run max speed and Honchkrow is slower than Nidoqueen which I mentioned in my previous post. It's worth being slower than Kingdra, opposing Nidoking and Chandelure since the trade off is a Pokemon that is much more reliable in general. You should focus on the fact Nidoqueen doesn't die to a light tap, whereas Nidoking is usually getting OHKOed / 2HKOed (resisted) by some of the heavier threats in tier. There's no pressing need to be fast in the 70-85 base speed tier anyway, you're still slow. I suppose a team that utilizes Nidoqueen over King has to lean on Snorlax to take out Chandelure, but seriously that's one minor hindrance to using QUeen.

Something else to consider: max HP/Sp Att Modest Nidoking takes the same 3HKO from Adamant Hera's CC that Nidoqueen does after rocks, but outspeeds min Speed Gligar and Suicune with 4 Speed EVs while OHKOing Slowbro with Tbolt after rocks and having a better chance to OHKO Bronzong with Fire Blast. You can give him the same physical bulk as Nidoqueen while maintaining a significant Sp. Att and Speed lead. Give that some thought.

Max HP / Max SpA Nidoking is still frailer than 0 HP Nidoqueen, especially on the special side...

Anyway, you're going to have to come up with some more convincing arguments, because as it stands, Nidoqueen just seems like a better overall choice.