So many weather teams... Is non-weather viable?

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat 2sly4u

Well I wouldn't call Golduck a "counter" to Stoutland since it can't switch in, and even if it could it's still mediocre (though using Golduck automatically makes you awesome).

It's awesome to see someone use Aerodactyl in today's metagame. Team preview may have hurt its viability as a lead, but even so it still gets SR up 99% of the time. Outspeeding and OHKOing Tornadus-T is awesome too if he somehow survives into mid/late game. But out of curiosity, why are you using him over Deoxys-D? Sure, there's a huge difference in Base Speed but I find Taunt to be fairly uncommon (rendering the Speed somewhat moot for a suicide lead) and the extra hazards Deoxys has access would help the setup sweepers .

okay first, do not mess with golduck, that thing was a monster in the excadrill era.

and i run aerodactyl over deoxys-d because a) it has major swag points, b) it can singlehandedly take care of any sweeper my opponent cares to send out, and c) deoxys-d is far too slow and easily wrecked by all the genesects running around nowadays. i find that a speedy suicide lead that gets rocks up and prevents a spin is pretty much all i need for the team to function properly.

[Skore]

One of the best routes I've found for non weather play is Trick Room.
Reuniclus, Porygon-Z, Gallade - your trick room core. Add in something to spam hazards, a spin blocker that can spread status and a Choice Band Scizor to come in and revenge kill and you can handle any weather team out there.

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat Skore

One of the best routes I've found for non weather play is Trick Room.
Reuniclus, Porygon-Z, Gallade - your trick room core. Add in something to spam hazards, a spin blocker that can spread status and a Choice Band Scizor to come in and revenge kill and you can handle any weather team out there.

the problem with trick room is that it only lasts 5 turns, unlike drizzle, drought, sand stream, or snow warning, which is permanent. this already puts your team at a disadvantage. combine the 5 turns with the prevalence of protect and the very few pokemon that are able to abuse trick room effectively, and you have a losing strategy.

besides, aren't we generalizing about weather a bit here? any stall team decimates trick room, weather or no weather - and statistics show that most stall teams are either rain or sand-stall. taunt anything hurts trick room badly, most notably tornadus-t, who prevents you from setting up tr and then spams your team to death with hurricanes. tyranitar, especially choice band, is a great check to all the psychic-types that commonly use trick room, including reuniclus, slowbro, slowking, and cofagrigus, not to mention porygon2 who is ohkod by superpower if it's offensive/specially defensive.

overall, trick room is an unreliable strategy that's hard to play with and even more difficult to win with. if your plan is to mess around with a fun gimmicky move, go ahead, use trick room. if your plan is to succeed on the ladder, try something else, such as hyper offense (see above).

[ballabrown24]

trick room is by no means a bad move, but a bad strategy. unless youre playing ubers (where its a very viable strategy), to have a team dedicated is a horrible idea. the effort to set up trick room does not equal the rewards. with that being said, a pokemon that abuses trick room for itself (such as otr reun / otr zong in 4th gen) are effective pokemon as they are the bane of offensive teams. trick room is like gravity, when used on a single pokemon, it is very effective. when trying to base an entire team around it, it is a trainwreck

and pretty much anyone can succeed on the ladder with any team with how bad it is

edit: as for the current topic at hand, i have no idea. i didnt bother reading any other posts other than the one above me

[Jimera0]

Originally Posted by Fat ballabrown24

trick room is by no means a bad move, but a bad strategy. unless youre playing ubers (where its a very viable strategy), to have a team dedicated is a horrible idea. the effort to set up trick room does not equal the rewards. with that being said, a pokemon that abuses trick room for itself (such as otr reun / otr zong in 4th gen) are effective pokemon as they are the bane of offensive teams. trick room is like gravity, when used on a single pokemon, it is very effective. when trying to base an entire team around it, it is a trainwreck

and pretty much anyone can succeed on the ladder with any team with how bad it is

edit: as for the current topic at hand, i have no idea. i didnt bother reading any other posts other than the one above me

I heartily disagree with this statement. Just because it's hard doesn't mean it's bad. The thing with Trick Room is that most people who attempt it, do so poorly because it's a pretty poorly understood section of the metagame. Some people I've seen around here have made great Trick Room teams and had success with them. It's not easy, but it CAN be done.

That being said, I don't honestly see how Trick Room is any more anti-weather than any other strategy. It's more anti-offense than anti-weather, which does make it pretty anti-meta considering the offensive leaning of the current metagame. It might happen to counter rain offense and sun offense but that's because they're OFFENSE, not because they're weather. I'm sure it'd have no particular advantage against, say, rain stall for instance.

[DrunkDemon]

Originally Posted by Fat Jimera0

I heartily disagree with this statement. Just because it's hard doesn't mean it's bad. The thing with Trick Room is that most people who attempt it, do so poorly because it's a pretty poorly understood section of the metagame. Some people I've seen around here have made great Trick Room teams and had success with them. It's not easy, but it CAN be done.

I agree completely. The fact that almost no one does uses it, and that there isn't a guide for it this generation, has made knowledge about creating a well-built Trick Room team very limited. As an example of a successful team, I remember a great one created by Absolete was RMTd earlier this month. I think if more people really took the time to explore the strategy in-depth, it would get much more recognition.

[Ames]

I am finding that all of my weather-less teams almost have to have heatran on them in order to overcome sun.

[Jimbon]

Originally Posted by Fat Ames

I am finding that all of my weather-less teams almost have to have heatran on them in order to overcome sun.

This was a problem I used to have, putting Heatran on every team as a part of a defensive core to help deal with Sun. However, I don't really think that Heatran is as reliable against Sun as it used to be. With the introduction of Genesect, Sun Offense teams got a great addition. Genesect + Dugtrio is a combination I see on a lot of Sun Teams as it can remove Heatran pretty easily, paving the way for Chlorophyll mons to sweep.

If you're looking for a Pokemon to deal with Sun, there are a couple that do the job just as well as Heatran. I've found Calm Mind Latias is still a good aid against Sun, being able to wall a lot of the Chlorophyll abusers without Hidden Power [Ice], as well as being able to boost it's own stats. Mamoswine is also something that it good against Sun, and Rain for that matter too. Mamoswine being a prime offensive Stealth Rocker means that Sun really has some trouble with it, unless you're carrying Gyro Ball Forretress. It OHKOs Ninetales and Dugtrio with the appropriate move, while Venusaur, Sawsbuck, Lilligant, Victreebel and Volcarona all do not want to switch into Mamoswine, taking a hefty chunk from it's dual STAB. Volcarona itself is also something that a lot of Sun Teams have trouble with, as a lot of people merely rely on having Stealth Rock up 100% of the time and think they can be able to revenge it. On Sun Teams, there is very little that can deal with Volcarona. I've found Specially Defensive Heatran has declined in usage since the introduction of Magma Storm Heatran to trap other weather inducers. Genesect and Venusaur too cannot touch Volcarona, while Ninetales can only hope to Toxic / Roar it, neither of which completely wreck Volcarona depending on the set.

[Ames]

Excellent points, thankyou for the input.

While I have considered using all of those on my current team (except Volc which is quite tempting to try), they share an annoying weakness to Scizor which is something else I need Heatran to answer too. The latter two also all share the inability to switch into boosted fire attacks which is definitely a problem because my only other specially defensive mon is Jirachi.

EDIT: I just realised that Flash Fire Chandelure can take hits (in theory) from the bugs (Scizor, Volc, possibly Gene) as well as suck up fire attacks. Tentacruel could also possibly fill this role.

[FaceFaceFace]

Originally Posted by Fat ballabrown24

trick room is by no means a bad move, but a bad strategy.

Have you seen a Rampardos netting 3 kills in 3 turns? That's half your team gone. It's a beautiful sight.

TR teams aren't easy, though; but I'm finding TR a lot easier than Sand teams, for some reason.

[Skore]

Perhaps what Lavos is saying about it being better vs offense rather than weather, but in today's meta I am just not running up against Stall teams. I honestly can't remember when I last met one.

[ballabrown24]

Originally Posted by Fat Jimera0

I heartily disagree with this statement. Just because it's hard doesn't mean it's bad. The thing with Trick Room is that most people who attempt it, do so poorly because it's a pretty poorly understood section of the metagame. Some people I've seen around here have made great Trick Room teams and had success with them. It's not easy, but it CAN be done.

That being said, I don't honestly see how Trick Room is any more anti-weather than any other strategy. It's more anti-offense than anti-weather, which does make it pretty anti-meta considering the offensive leaning of the current metagame. It might happen to counter rain offense and sun offense but that's because they're OFFENSE, not because they're weather. I'm sure it'd have no particular advantage against, say, rain stall for instance.

Do not mistake me, i never said it was hard to use, i said it was straight up bad. you say the people who attempt it have a fairly poor grasp on the strategy and i would agree 100%. this is the result of higher grade players knowing that to make a full trick room team is a horrible idea and will end in failure. you state that you know people who have used trick room teams successfully, can i get a name or some kind of proof? Because right now youre just blowing smoke. i dont think there has ever been a successful non-ubers trick room team. now if i were to ask you of proof, its only fitting i back up my trick room is a usable move statement. I say a team with a user of trick room can be very successful because of my personal experience with it. in st7, i got all the way to the finals with a team centered around otr bronzong. was my team a full tr team? Most certainly not. while there were members of my team that appreciated tr (breloom snorlax) the other half of my team was fairly fast and the team as a whole was useful even if tr wasnt up. In 5th gen during the swift swim era, i used otr reun with great success on a fast team, going 5-1 in spl in the proccess. i am requesting you back up your argument, because right now it looks like fallacy

and yes i did just toot my own horn stfu

Originally Posted by Fat DrunkDemon

I agree completely. The fact that almost no one does uses it, and that there isn't a guide for it this generation, has made knowledge about creating a well-built Trick Room team very limited. As an example of a successful team, I remember a great one created by Absolete was RMTd earlier this month. I think if more people really took the time to explore the strategy in-depth, it would get much more recognition.

I think you fail to realize that a fancy rmt does not make it successful. the team you stated only accomplishment was that it "cracked the top 100" on a broken PS ladder. There actually is in fact an article about trick room this generation, check out the c&c forum. trick room is a move thats been released for 5+ years, if it were a good full team strategy, im sure we would have known by now

full trick room teams arent good

[SpecsX]

You said there are no good non-ubers TR teams, but Trick Room can effective in VGC and Little Cup. If You are using TR in OU, a self-supportng(or OTR) user is the most effective way to use it.

[emirinho]

I definitely think that one can use non-weather teams efficiently and have great success with it. I always play with non-weather teams and i am able to cope with the todays metagame. However, in order for a non-weather team to be successful you must have pokemons that counter rain and sun teams because they are the hardest to play against. Sand and hail dont really need to be directly countered as long as you have a good defensive core on your team.

[DrunkDemon]

Originally Posted by Fat ballabrown24

I think you fail to realize that a fancy rmt does not make it successful. the team you stated only accomplishment was that it "cracked the top 100" on a broken PS ladder. There actually is in fact an article about trick room this generation, check out the c&c forum. trick room is a move thats been released for 5+ years, if it were a good full team strategy, im sure we would have known by now

full trick room teams arent good

I don't think teams are good because of the accolades that the creators gain. I do know that it's relatively easy to achieve a high ladder ranking with a sub-par team if you know what you're doing. I'm claiming that the taem I mentioned is good because, looking at how that team handles the meta-game right now and the major threats in it, its' well-built. My mistake about the article though. To be clear, I'm not claiming that Trick Room is a "good full team strategy" as you put it, but it is viable, especially in such an offensively oriented metagame.

[Alexander.]

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

okay first, do not mess with golduck, that thing was a monster in the excadrill era.

And Lickilicky? :)

Penguin/tizio potente ao (an italian player) used this set:

Lickilicky (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Cloud Nine
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 40 SAtk / 176 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Return
- Fire Blast
- Toxic
- Protect

...and it worked very good! :]

[the kbxe]

In gen4, I had a pretty good success with a TR team.

In gen5, it doesn't work that well mainly because explosion got nerved.

I still got success with it at the begining , where Jirachi wasn't yet used to counter reuniclus.

[Absolete]

Everyone who's talking about Trick Room as though it's anti-weather is silly. If anything, Trick Room is anti-Hyper Offense and Trick Room teams AREN'T easy, as Jimera has said. I have had good success with mine, as I would with any other team that I put as much thought and testing into. My Trick Room team is equally as viable against weather as it as non-weather, and to whoever has said Trick Room is a gimmick at best also hasn't looked into it far enough. There are breakthroughs to be made and they will come out soon enough. Also, while I don't have any "claims to fame" with my Trick Room team, I ask that you simply try it for yourself, rather than just saying it has no claims to fame and therefore is a gimmick at best. It does function well in today's metagame, and above all it's enjoyable and can compete with decent teams so that fun can be had. Additionally, the Trick Room guide in the C&C section blows ass and everyone knows it.

[X5Dragon]

TrickRoom/Gravity need rocks to make them at least 8 turns, but before that happens they will have better luck in other tiers I'm sure.

I really suggest everyone start using a weather changing move on their team, I dunno I use Hail because my Volca can really sweep a hail team by himself if I faced one and it's the least annoying weather for me, but you can use Rain Dance, Sand Storm or Sunny Day if it suits you better.

Just kill the weather inducer, use the move, and play by your own rules.

[SpecsX]

If TR/Gravity could be extended to 8 turns, they'd be used a ton. Especially Gravity, because you could, A: Spam Earthquake and low-accuracy moves, or B: Spikestack and phaze. Not just 5 turns, EIGHT, a big difference.

[emirinho]

If only one of these things could be upgraded in the next gens or if only one thing gets into the metagame that limits or counters weather teams additionally non-weather team's usage would boom incredibly.

[Lavos Spawn]

i feel like hyper offense is still going largely ignored in this thread, even though i've found it to be the most effective way to win games in this metagame without using weather.

another option that many of you seem to be forgetting is full stall, which forgoes a weather starter in favor of an extra pokemon to contribute to the stall. an example of this might go something along the lines of forretress/skarmory/blissey/jellicent/quagsire/tangrowth. generally stall's problem this generation has been checking every single threat in the metagame, because the obligatory weather starter screws something up, but removing the weather and adding another pokemon to stall can be extremely deadly even when the opponent has a weather "advantage". if you're a stall-friendly player, give this a shot.

[emirinho]

I agree tha hyper offense is great in fighting weather, but it doesnt have to be the most effective. Balanced teams that have a decent counter to weather teams are also very effective imo. Balanced teams usually have a sweeper that all the other members are based around so if the other members can make a good platform for the sweeper win.

I have never been a fan of stall. Mainly because i dont have the patience to stall other pokemon, because the battle take too much time. On the other hand, i love stall because of its simplicity and stall will always be a part of our metagame, no matter what happens.
The way how you explained how to face weather with stall teams is pretty good. Although a Tentacruel could be added on the team above to handle rain even better.

[Wizarus]

Originally Posted by Fat FaceFaceFace

Have you seen a Rampardos netting 3 kills in 3 turns? That's half your team gone. It's a beautiful sight.

TR teams aren't easy, though; but I'm finding TR a lot easier than Sand teams, for some reason.

Rampardos is a terrible TR sweeper. Weak to all of the common priority moves bar ES, reliance on a rather inaccurate STAB, hard as hell to get in due to no decent resistances + fragility, not to mention absolutely being useless outside of TR. There are better TR sweepers than Rampardos.


I don't really think TR teams work TBH. The closest thing to a TR team I see working would be Pory2 + Reuniclus + Sweeper. That prevents you from being overly reliant on TR, and gives you enough flexibility to handle threats that a 6-slot TR team cannot.

[Absolete]

Originally Posted by Fat Wizarus

Rampardos is a terrible TR sweeper. Weak to all of the common priority moves bar ES, reliance on a rather inaccurate STAB, hard as hell to get in due to no decent resistances + fragility, not to mention absolutely being useless outside of TR. There are better TR sweepers than Rampardos.


I don't really think TR teams work TBH. The closest thing to a TR team I see working would be Pory2 + Reuniclus + Sweeper. That prevents you from being overly reliant on TR, and gives you enough flexibility to handle threats that a 6-slot TR team cannot.

Concur entirely with the first part. Rampardos blows ass. Marowak is exponentially better, and Marowak isn't the best Trick Room abuser. The second part isn't entirely true. I think Trick Room is like Stall, where it takes a certain personality and play style to use effectively. Stall teams also generally find it somewhat difficult to counter all the threats, just like Trick Room teams. However, good stall teams exist in the hands of good players, and I think Trick Room teams could do the same.