So many weather teams... Is non-weather viable?

[Lord of Bays]

Actually Yee, I'm thinking of Chlorophyll/Swift Swim Pokémon that carry their weather of choice. I've run Sunny Day Lilligant in the past and am currently using a Rain Dance Kingdra. In addition to having a super-fast check to rain threats, you have a potent sweeper on its own (such as against opposing weatherless) as well as a way to break opposing weather.

I've used weather moves on Pokémon without a speed-boosting ability (like Rain Dance Tornadus), but they're nearly dead weight against the weather they use (lol Starmie outspeeds and OHKOs with Thunder), nor did they ever seem to help that much against other weather beyond breaking it after the inducer was dead, but that honestly didn't help much in my games.

[Wizarus]

Originally Posted by Fat yee

@725roy and deluks917

1. There are different levels of running pokes to counter weathers- there is running Kingdra which is accepting liability against any non rain team, and then there is running things like Scarf Keldeo, which is menacing against rain while doing the standard revenge killing job well. Others like SpD Rotom-W really just happen to do very well against rain and are exactly the kind of thing you'd support your team with if rain wasn't even a focus

Sorry but this is wrong. SPD Rotom-W was made for rain, it never existed until hurricane spam became a thing. If rain didn't exist, SPD Rotom-W wouldn't either.

[UltiMario]

SpD Rotom-W is absolutely something that existed before BW2. It was almost exclusively what I used in BW1 for Rotom-W.

[Shurtugal]

SDef Wash was a good check to Torn-I in BW1

~~~~just saying~~~~

[lacerta]

Originally Posted by Fat verycoolguy

I usually don't think of Politoed as a forced slot space for the sake of aiding teammates, but more like a Pokemon with an ability that powers up its STAB by x1.5, making it a powerful threat on its own.

Timid Specs Keldeo in rain is both much faster and much stronger than Modest Specs Politoed in rain, with better STAB and effectively mixed offenses. Rotom-W, Kingdra and Modest Starmie (lol) can lay similar claims in terms of offensive power, speed and coverage. From the position of a slow, 'bulky' specs user we have Empoleon and Vaporeon, who in rain are vastly superior to Politoed in this regard. SpecsToed may seem like a real offensive presence, but compared with other things you could find in Rain, it's sub-par and lacking. So I think it's safe to say that, were it not for the Drizzle it provides to other team members, offensive Toed is outclassed. And we all know that defensive Toed does nothing but waste turns. So even imagined as a pokemon that simply has a powerful boosted STAB Hydro Pump, Politoed is a waste of a slot but for rain.

Tyranitar is an excellent Pursuit-trapper and wallbreaker, Hippowdon is an unsurpassed physical wall, Abomasnow has unique resistances/neutralities and STAB Ice Shard. People are far too kind to Politoed.

[nmitchell890]

Originally Posted by Fat lacerta

Timid Specs Keldeo in rain is both much faster and much stronger than Modest Specs Politoed in rain, with better STAB and effectively mixed offenses. Rotom-W, Kingdra and Modest Starmie (lol) can lay similar claims in terms of offensive power, speed and coverage. From the position of a slow, 'bulky' specs user we have Empoleon and Vaporeon, who in rain are vastly superior to Politoed in this regard. SpecsToed may seem like a real offensive presence, but compared with other things you could find in Rain, it's sub-par and lacking. So I think it's safe to say that, were it not for the Drizzle it provides to other team members, offensive Toed is outclassed. And we all know that defensive Toed does nothing but waste turns. So even imagined as a pokemon that simply has a powerful boosted STAB Hydro Pump, Politoed is a waste of a slot but for rain.

Tyranitar is an excellent Pursuit-trapper and wallbreaker, Hippowdon is an unsurpassed physical wall, Abomasnow has unique resistances/neutralities and STAB Ice Shard. People are far too kind to Politoed.

Your right in saying that without its weather abilities, Politoed would be very outclassed in the OU metagame. But similarly, even Tyranitar would see little use because its typing and low speed would hold it back without the boost to SpD in sandstorm. It would face a similar fate to Metagross. Of the five weather inducers, I think Hippowdon is the least reliant on its respective weather and would have the best chance of staying OU viable if it didn't have Sand Stream. The mere fact that it packs Drizzle makes it not only viable in OU, but one of the most influential pokemon, if not the most. Every single pokemon you mentioned would kill an innocent little Jigglypuff (Sleep Talk selected Hydro Pump) to have access to Drizzle. Heck, Bibarel would be viable in OU if it had Drizzle. Drizzle isn't just for supporting its teammates, Politoed has one of the most powerful moves in OU and it gets the boost just by switching in. So while I agree that Politoed would be outclassed if it didn't have Drizzle, or if any other pokemon you mentioned had access to Drizzle same as Politoed. But Politoed deserves the respect it gets because it is still a viciously powerful pokemon.

[yee]

I agree that Keldeo has a higher special attack stat than Politoed, glad we established that.

[lacerta]

Originally Posted by Fat nmitchell890

Your right in saying that without its weather abilities, Politoed would be very outclassed in the OU metagame. But similarly, even Tyranitar would see little use because its typing and low speed would hold it back without the boost to SpD in sandstorm. It would face a similar fate to Metagross. Of the five weather inducers, I think Hippowdon is the least reliant on its respective weather and would have the best chance of staying OU viable if it didn't have Sand Stream. The mere fact that it packs Drizzle makes it not only viable in OU, but one of the most influential pokemon, if not the most. ... Politoed has one of the most powerful moves in OU and it gets the boost just by switching in. So while I agree that Politoed would be outclassed if it didn't have Drizzle, or if any other pokemon you mentioned had access to Drizzle same as Politoed. But Politoed deserves the respect it gets because it is still a viciously powerful pokemon.

Well, that's pretty much exactly what I was arguing against. With Sand Stream, Tyranitar is not outclassed as a Pursuit trapper by any pokemon, due to its STAB and enormous SpDef and Atk. It's its own ability that allows it to be a superior pokemon in itself; we're not talking Unnerve Ttar or Damp Toed.

But let's say you're against a Drizzle team. Politoed is the least powerful viable Specs Hydro Pump spammer that could possibly be on that team. Keldeo and friends get the benefit of rain in this judgement because Politoed itself is only ever used on rain teams (I understand this is a tautology, but that's the point). Therefore, Politoed's Drizzle provides no advantage to itself enough to merit the use of offensive Toed over another similar pokemon. Politoed's relative worth lies only in its team support; the rest is necessary filler.

I hope that made sense, nmitchell and yee. The only reason to justify Politoed is the team support it gives; even with Drizzle it has nothing to justify itself as a good pokemon, in opposition to Tyranitar. Drizzle is just that bro-...good, that it makes Specs Politoed into a top-tier threat and many things more powerful or effective into potential ubers.

Having said that, I do believe non-weather can be viable, even more so now big bird is on the way out. Deo-D offense is obviously very effective as has been established already, but stall, semistall and balance are somewhat more difficult. My most successful team this gen has been weatherless defensive balance, although it took a hit with the BW2 releases of Torn-T, Lando-T and unbanning of Garchomp. I've found SpD Celebi, RestTalk Gyarados, fast Jellicent, and Latias (surprise surprise) to be very anti-weather on the defensive front.

I'd love to know if anyone has achieved the holy grail of successful weatherless BW2/Torn-T era full stall though!

[Arcticblast]

Sub+DD Gyarados could be classified as "anti-weather." Its bulk allows it to set up with little fear, possibly getting a boost and a Substitute, and it can use its STAB to dismantle Rain and Sand teams. Nothing on a Rain team will want to take a 3.125x (STAB, Rain, +1) boosted Waterfall except Ferrothorn, who can be beaten with repeated Bounces if it doesn't carry Protect. Water hits Ground and Rock super effectively for Sand, and the Grass-types it often carries to beat Rain are wrecked by Bounce. Sadly, Rotom-W is a pretty hard counter, but packing a Grass-type like Amoonguss or Roserade can make it much easier to deal with.

[Wizarus]

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

SDef Wash was a good check to Torn-I in BW1

~~~~just saying~~~~

Originally Posted by Fat UltiMario

SpD Rotom-W is absolutely something that existed before BW2. It was almost exclusively what I used in BW1 for Rotom-W.

I didn't say anything about BW or BW2. Rain is why SPD Rotom-W exists.

[Lord of Bays]

Originally Posted by Fat Arcticblast

Sub+DD Gyarados could be classified as "anti-weather." Its bulk allows it to set up with little fear, possibly getting a boost and a Substitute, and it can use its STAB to dismantle Rain and Sand teams. Nothing on a Rain team will want to take a 3.125x (STAB, Rain, +1) boosted Waterfall except Ferrothorn, who can be beaten with repeated Bounces if it doesn't carry Protect. Water hits Ground and Rock super effectively for Sand, and the Grass-types it often carries to beat Rain are wrecked by Bounce. Sadly, Rotom-W is a pretty hard counter, but packing a Grass-type like Amoonguss or Roserade can make it much easier to deal with.

While I would have loved for this to be true, I had to stop using Gyarados in BW1 thanks to the number of fast Thunder abusers. Scarf Rotom-W was fucking everywhere, and if he wasn't every Starmie I saw was packing BoltBeam (I ran a lot of Starmies with Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and Grass Knot, okay?). Even avoiding those two, stuff would carry electric coverage or something else that totally boned Gyarados.

[TheWaddleDeeKing]

Originally Posted by Fat Wizarus

I didn't say anything about BW or BW2. Rain is why SPD Rotom-W exists.

That's a joke, right?

[Lord of Bays]

I would say it's not. Rotom-W in Gen IV was choiced or a bulky spin blocker; yeah, there's about 8 sets on-site but none of them are specially defensive. Blissey was the only common special wall. With Gen V's power creep (read: With the Drizzle's introduction to OU) we either used shit that resisted the attacks being spammed or were swept. Hell, if Jirachi resisted Water as well or took rain-boosted Water attacks better for whatever reason, we STILL wouldn't have SpDef Rotom-W.

[AffirmativeAction]

You're kidding yourself if you think Non-weather isn't extremely limited because of weather. With that being said, it still is viable but like I said you're forced to use certain Pokemon.

Weather has killed originality in Pokemon.

[RabidChipmunk]

Originally Posted by Fat AffirmativeAction

You're kidding yourself if you think Non-weather isn't extremely limited because of weather. With that being said, it still is viable but like I said you're forced to use certain Pokemon.

Weather has killed originality in Pokemon.

I disagree entirely with this statement. If it wasn't for weather, the meta game would consistently of little more than dragon spam and fighting spam. Weather may look like it's homogenized the meta game, but it's actually given many Pokemon who would've never had any business being in OU an actual fighting chance.

[AffirmativeAction]

Originally Posted by Fat RabidChipmunk

I disagree entirely with this statement. If it wasn't for weather, the meta game would consistently of little more than dragon spam and fighting spam. Weather may look like it's homogenized the meta game, but it's actually given many Pokemon who would've never had any business being in OU an actual fighting chance.

No it wouldn't. Dragons are not even that overpowered, and neitehr are fighting types. There's a reason Salamence/Garchomp are not uber this genration. Hell if multiscale dragonite existed in D/P it would be uber as well. There are too damn many ways to check them...hell I'd argue that there were nearly as many ways to check them in the 4th gen but people didn't realize that dragons get raped by ice shard/choice scarf/other boosted prioirty moves until 5th gen. Then there's cloyster which is an pretty solid check to every dragon in the game. If cloyster had shell smash in gen 4 and was viable in OU nobody would give a fuck about dragons. There are more fast Pokemon in general this gen that can outspeed and hit dragons hard like Terrakion

As for fighting there are too many psychics and fast special attackers in OU that can learn psychic/flying moves for fighting types to be that much of a problem. I'll admit that fighting types are indeed harder to check than dragons sometimes considering they usually have good offensive coverage but they are not unstoppable.

[Lord of Bays]

Originally Posted by Fat AffirmativeAction

As for fighting there are too many psychics and fast special attackers in OU that can learn psychic/flying moves for fighting types to be that much of a problem. I'll admit that fighting types are indeed harder to check than dragons sometimes considering they usually have good offensive coverage but they are not unstoppable.

Okay, I would like to get rid of this stereotype once and for all. Does anyone know why Psychics are so fucking rare? Does anyone know why Fighting-types are everywhere despite typically being countered by Psychics? Because GameFreak made Psychics shit. Pursuit trapping, Dark's immunity and Steel's resistance to their attacks, Scizor's existence; all factors that led to no one in their right mind using Psychic-type Pokémon unless they are extremely good at what they do.

All that being said, "too many psychics" and Psychic and Flying coverage (are you fucking serious) are not why Fighting-types can be kept in check. As befitting an intensely offensive typing, all OU Fighting-types take two traits and only two from a pool of three: Power, speed, or durability. You get Mighty Glaciers (slow yet strong and tough) and Glass Cannons (powerful but frail), but no Lightning Bruisers (powerful, fast, and durable), and so they can be beaten. If Terrakion had Jirachi's bulk, or if Infernape hit as hard as Latios, do you think they would still be running around in OU?

Dragons live and die by the type chart. Fighting-types don't.

[AffirmativeAction]

Originally Posted by Fat Lord of Bays

Okay, I would like to get rid of this stereotype once and for all. Does anyone know why Psychics are so fucking rare? Does anyone know why Fighting-types are everywhere despite typically being countered by Psychics? Because GameFreak made Psychics shit. Pursuit trapping, Dark's immunity and Steel's resistance to their attacks, Scizor's existence; all factors that led to no one in their right mind using Psychic-type Pokémon unless they are extremely good at what they do.

We have Starmie and Alakazam who are solid OU pokemon being A and B tier respectively. That's enough to deal with fighting types. Not to mention there are fast Pokemon that are not psychic but can learn psychic moves.

I repeat: I admit fighting types are pretty tough to stop but not unstoppable.

[AJ34]

Weather is indeed very common. Non-weather is still very much viable. I have done somewhat well will a non-weather balanced team :)

[Lord of Bays]

Originally Posted by Fat AffirmativeAction

We have Starmie and Alakazam who are solid OU pokemon being A and B tier respectively. That's enough to deal with fighting types. Not to mention there are fast Pokemon that are not psychic but can learn psychic moves.

I repeat: I admit fighting types are pretty tough to stop but not unstoppable.

And I repeat: Psychic-types are not used unless they are extremely good at what they do. Starmie is bar none the best offensive spinner in the game (ignoring that its only competition for "offensive spinner" is currently Kabutops and Cloyster, when Excadrill was still around Starmie was still the better offensive spinner because Excadrill beat the one spin blocker that Starmie couldn't and was a waste besides that) and Alakazam is one of the best revenge killers in the game with Magic Guard and Focus Sash.

You don't NEED Psychic coverage to beat Fighting-types. Like I said, if a Fighting-type is fast and powerful enough to be threatening, they're either carrying an easily exploitable weakness or their defenses are shit enough that a powerful neutral STAB will cripple them. If they're bulky they're either a slow Pokémon already or sacrificing speed so you can switch in something that hits like a fucking truck and take care of them that way.

I'm not arguing that Fighting-types are some unbeatable juggernaut (that would be Dragons if Mamoswine didn't exist), but claiming that Psychic-types is what's keeping all the Fighting-types in check is wrong.

[HabibsHotDogs]

lol @ "noone uses psychic types". Even if we ignore the lati twins, there are still seven psychics in OU. There is absolutely no arguing with the notion that psychics (specifically the OU psychics) have some of the best abilities in the game (Magic Guard, Natural Cure, Serene Grace, Magic Bounce) with two of these abilities being psychic exclusive (arguably the best two). There's also psychics that are borderline OU, that is mew, azelf, slowbro and perhaps some others..

Let's not forget that many of OU's psychics are 100+ base speed, let's list them shall we:

-Jirachi
-Latias
-Latios
-Espeon
-Starmie
-Alakazam

Let's not say psychics are only used because they are "extremely good at what they do".. that is a poor argument as EVERY pokemon in OU is used because they are good at what they do (your precious mamoswine is only used to check all the ice shard weak sweepers in the current meta, which is is conveniently extremely good at). Psychic might be a mediocre STAB to have due to base power, but it's hardly bad otherwise and Psychic's have an incredibly important resistance to fighting which is what keeps them relevant defensively.

For the record, fighting struggles to keep 6 or 7 pokemon in OU, despite the coveted close combat.

[Deluks917]

Physic is a below average typing with some good pokemon. Latias/Latios/Starmie would all be considerably better without a psychic typing.

[blitzlefan]

What Deluks917 says is true. A Psychic typing opens a Pokemon up to a host of problems: being Pursuit trapped, getting wrecked by U-Turn, and having few abusable resistances. However, supereffective coverage on Fighting-types and access to good moves(eg Psyshock) / stats / abilities(eg Magic Guard) is what keeps them useful in the metagame. However, if another typing got these traits, surely Psychic types would fall out of favor. (Similar to how Dragon types > Psychic types way back then)

[HabibsHotDogs]

You are not thinking of the benefits as well as the disadvantages, if Latios/Latias/Starmie didn't have their dual typing then SD Breloom has 3 less checks to worry about, Keldeo now only has 2 special attacking pokemon that can reliably revenge her without a scarf at +1 and Terrakion can spam close combats less consequentially.

[Lord of Bays]

I never said that "no one uses Psychic-types". You're highlighting these Pokémon as though their typing gives them some incredible advantage.

Jirachi: Jirachi is used because it is part-Steel, period. Psychic did not give it a resistance to Hurricane and Draco Meteor. I will give you that being neutral to Fighting as opposed to weak to it is a huge boon, but that is all it does.

Lati@s: THEY ARE PART-DRAGON. Dragon is the best typing in the game, bar none, and that is why they are used. It is largely agreed that Latios being pure Dragon would be immensely better, making it less Pursuit-bait and so goddamn vulnerable to Scizor.

Espeon: Magic Bounce. Or did you forget that Espeon was NU last generation and the only thing significant it received besides Magic Bounce in BW was Psyshock which is not nearly enough to cause that huge a jump.

Starmie: Base 115 speed (the only Pokémon to currently occupy this speed tier in OU, by the way) and STAB Water attacks + BoltBeam coverage make Starmie what it is. Again, it would love to lose its Psychic typing and, like Latios, stop being weak to Pursuit and Bug-type attacks.

Alakazam: Like Espeon, it only became OU (after being UU in DPPt) because it received one of the best abilities in the game. Even after we entered Gen V Alakazam was not in OU until he received Magic Guard. Check the archives.

All these Pokémon (and I would go into the others if I weren't worried about being infracted for how badly I've derailed this thread already) owe their success to factors independent of their Psychic typing, and in most cases would be significantly better if they were typed differently.