|Jun 8th, 2013, 7:55:48 PM||#1|
It's Great! To Be! A Michigan Wolverine!
Join Date: Apr 2010
CAP 5 Pre-Evo - Part 4 - Stat Spread Submissions
Hello everyone! It's time for one of the more fun parts of CAP per-evolutions, the stat spread submissions! In this part of the CAP, we will decide the base stats of our little Infiltrator. And how exactly will we decide on these stats? Through discussion and polling, of course!
Now, the discussion rules for a main CAP and its pre-evolution are worlds apart.
For Malaconda, every discussion point required the utmost concern for individual threats complemented by enough calculations to make the reader's head spin. However, for this lil' snake (or whatever the winning art design ends up being!), calculations and competitive analysis are not required at all.
We're not looking for the "toughest" stat spread or something that can OHKO Misdreavus on your Little Cup team. This Pokemon is not being designed for LC, NU, or any other meta game you can think of. If you think this Pokemon should have the statistical prowess of Sunkern then you may argue that all you want. There are plenty of powerful pre-evolutions and plenty of unviable pre-evolutions, so just submit and discuss what you feel "makes sense". If you want to include Little Cup damage calculations and optimize this Pokemon then go right ahead. Just keep in mind that competitive reasoning as flavor reasoning.
This discussion is for more than just submissions. The entirety of forum discussion concerning stats takes place in this thread. Just because you have a WIP or nothin to submit doesn't mean that you're not welcome in this thread! Or on #cap on IRC for that matter! Please contribute wherever you see fit; everyone appreciates a contributor!
I'm not going to set a deadline, but this thread will not close in less than 48 hours. I'm currently unable to monitor or post in this thread much since I've just moved and am unable to access the Internet from anything other than my phone until Monday. Furthermore, since this thread is for both submissions, feedback, and debate, it's important to give everyone their fair say.
Happy discussion, everybody!
P.S. Malaconda's stats are 115/100/60/40/130/55
|Jun 8th, 2013, 8:21:43 PM||#2|
Join Date: Apr 2012
Avatar by the awesome Magistrum!
Miniconda: 75/70/40/20/95/30 (BST:330)
Malaconda: 115/100/60/40/130/55 (BST:500)
The change: -40/-30/-20/-20/-35/-25
First things off, the BST of Miniconda was a relatively easy choice. Drapion, which is similar to Malaconda sinister-wise, shared its BST of 500 with Malaconda. Therefore, I wanted Miniconda's BST to share Skorupi's, and so 330 was chosen. Many prevos of 500 BST Pokemon also have a BST of 330, such as Teddiursa and Houndour, whilst other prevos of the same sort were close to 330 (Grimer has a BST of 325 whilst Psyduck has a BST of 320).
I chose an HP of 75 for Miniconda due to many reasons. Most prevos have HP as the largest difference stat-wise between the prevo and the evolution, and so 75 seemed fitting. It has precedence in the fact that Musharna has 116 HP, whilst Munna has 76HP. So, 75->115 HP fits perfectly.
I wanted the attack stat to be close to Miniconda's HP for a reason. The way I see it, Miniconda is still a small snake, not yet gluttonous enough to reach the sizes of the humongous Malaconda. Therefore the HP is low-ish compared to Malaconda. However, Miniconda is aggresive as ever, striving to nip down on the opponent with all its might. Also, the way prevos are, the difference between each stat is less than the evolution's difference between each stat. Therefore, I think 75HP/70Atk fits nicely when Malaconda has 115HP/100Atk. 70 also has copious amounts of precedence; Nuzleaf (another Grass/Dark), Vibrava, Aipom and Dusclops all have 70 Atk where their final evolution has 100. Oh, and did you know that Miniconda has been taking lessons from fellow snake Dunsparce, and they both reside on 70 Atk?
Sadly, poor Miniconda's arrogance usually gets the better of him, and so he gets carried away and lost in the moment, unable to protect and fend himself when needed. Whilst Malaconda at least attempts to protect its apple from predators, Miniconda is simply unaware. 40Def has plenty 'o precedence once again; Cranidos, Drilbur, Cacnea (a fellow Grass/Dark), Zorua, Nuzleaf (Grass/Dark again :P), Minccino, Torchic and Electrike all share 40 Def with an evolution which has 60 Def. And flavour-wise, there's two dark/grass types with the same defence to kick in! Contemplating giving it 30 Def to remind ourselves that the mighty Caterpie with 35 Def is much better than it in every single way.
The Special Attack is the dump stat. Malaconda can't attack in a special way to save its life, so neither should Miniconda. And despite there being very few fully evolved pokemon with 40 SpD, there's still precedence! Hariyama has 40SpD, Makuhita has 20SpD.
This stat may come as a surprise to you, since there's no precedence and it is the highest Special Defence submitted so far. However, I have my reasons. First off, 95 as a stat for a prevo is not unheard of whatsoever. Bonsly has 95 defence, Wynaut has 95HP, Anorith has 95 Attack, Magnemite has 95 Special Attack, Diglett has 95 Speed. However, there is one stat which seems to be missing a base 95 for a prevo. Yup, that's special defence. So, that's my first reason. Second reason is that I based my prevo's special defence off Mr.Mime. Mr.Mime has 120SpD, 10 points off Malaconda's. Mime.Jr has 90SpD. Now, following differences between each stat for prevos and evolutions, I want the difference of 10 points to be reduced to 5 for prevos, hence 95 SpD :)
Speed is certainly the middle ground. It rounds off my BST of 330 nicely and does still have precedence; Happiny has 30 Speed whilst Blissey has 55. Turtwig has 31 Speed whilst Torterra has 56 Speed. Any speed above 55 is out of the question; to my knowledge, snakes increase in speed as they grow older, and so it seems unrealistic to have a speed that high.
My favourite pokemon grid
Last edited by Eagle4; Jun 11th, 2013 at 8:21:54 PM.
|Jun 8th, 2013, 8:29:04 PM||#3|
Join Date: Jul 2009
I'd like to propose that we mirror other 2 Stages Pokémon that have a BST of 500. Those are:
From the list we can see that Bronzong and Claydol have same BST. I know that's not official, but Bronzong has been widely treated by the fanbase as a 4th gen Claydol. I think we should pick a mon that has at least something to do with Malaconda. IMO, the best match is Drapion.
So i propose that we have a look on how the Skorupi -> Drapion stat progression go.
Edit: Completely ninja'd by Eagle4...
|Jun 8th, 2013, 8:56:22 PM||#4|
Join Date: Sep 2011
Gotta Go Goat!
Malaconda stats - 115/100/60/40/130/55 BST 500
Babyconda stats - 75/60/40/30/90/35 BST 330
Difference - -40/-40/-20/-10/-40/-20
So lets take this stat-by-stat. Before I do, I would like to point out that I always start any prevo stats by reducing each stat by 20, and then modifying them.
Base Stat Total and General Overview
Really basic stuff here, other pokemon with a BST of 500 have a prevo that have a BST that is around 330. While Skorupi -> Drapion is a good place to look flavor-wise, I actually used Mienfoo -> Meinshao as my reference, as both are 5th gen pokemon (Mala is a 5th gen CaP) and Mala and Mienshao share the fact that they have 2 "high" stats, 1 "decent" stat, and 3 "poor" stats. For this reason, I looks at the Mienshao line as a reference for stats over something that makes more sense flavor-wise, such as the Drapion line.
Hit Points and Special Defense - The "High" Stats
Mala's highest and second highest stats are Special Defense and Hit Points respectively, so obviously they are going to be Babyconda's 1st and 2nd highest stats (we're not pulling a Volcarona here; or at least, we shouldn't). Since there is a relatively sized gap between these two stats, Babyconda also gets a sizable difference between these two. For this reason, 90 and 75 were chosen (most prevos don't go over 90 as far as I can tel).
Attack - The "Mid" Stat
60 was chosen for Attack because 60 seemed like a good number to hit for a mid stat. For comparison, Mienfoo has base 55 for its midstat (Special Attack), which becomes 95 upon evolution. Malaconda has a similar stat (100 compared to 95), so Babyconda has a similar stat to Mienfooes (60 compared to 55)
Special Attack and Speed - The "Poor" Stats
30 and 35 were chosen as the "Poor" stats. This mainly has to do with keeping the BST at 330 (I don't want to put the 10 stat points in Special Attack to anything else, as I like the other numbers atm). Speed is perfect how it is imo however, 35 to 55 doesn't seem that outrageous. The Special Attack transition from 30-40 is a bit odd imo, but it's the best solution to the BST problem I have atm.
So yeah, that's my spread. C+C would be nice. I'll comment on the other spreads in a minute.
EDIT: I lied, I'll probably get around to commenting on other people's spreads on Monday.
EDIT2L I lied again :(
Going around at the speed of Goat.
Got places to roam
Gotta follow my Gogoat
PS! Username: DreMZ
Last edited by The Reptile; Jun 12th, 2013 at 12:57:35 AM.
|Jun 8th, 2013, 10:00:11 PM||#5|
Join Date: May 2005
Malaconda: 115 / 100 / 60 / 40 / 130 / 55, BST 500
Mala Pre-vo: 70 / 60 / 35 / 20 / 105 / 40, BST 330
Difference: -45 / -40 / -25 / -20 / -25 / -15 (-170)
Like others, I generally agree with the logic of the BST going from 330 to 500 given the number of in-game examples. Logic on each stat:
HP usually jumps the most from first stage to second stage Pokemon in second stage Pokemon with high Base HP. A jump from 70 to 115 provides a sizable 45 point gap that still retains the general character of the Pokemon's spread. This is true in cases that are odd like Tangela's and in more common cases like Duosion -> Reuniclus (45), Foongus -> Amoonguss (also 45), and Drillbur -> Excadrill (Even bigger jump of 50).
There are number of Pokemon that have fully evolved Pokemon with a 100 stat and 60 as the pre-vo's stat. Examples would include Deerling, Blitzle, and Numel. This seems to have a lot of precedence generally and relative to the other stats it keeps Attack roughly in the proper place, as lower than HP and SpD. Attack is still comparable to HP, but the pre-evolution clearly is much more Special Defense focused.
Pre-vo's usually mirror their counterparts when one defense is fairly large, and 35 is a reasonable level for something with high HP / SpD. An interesting note here is the absolute value of both Defense and Special Defense is dropped by the same amount. This makes the drop in percentage terms much smaller for Special Defense, but it actually leaves Defense relative to HP fairly intact.
Special Attack / Special Defense:
I see the SpA to SpD aspect of Malaconda to be something of a resistance vs. magic kind of thing,where Malaconda isn't really very magical but it is highly resistant, and I think the typing Malaconda has plays into that a lot. As a result it has very high resistance to special attacks and now much special attacking power, essentially making it a dump stat. I also thought it was important to have a Pokemon with a natural 100+ stat because those are few and far-between, with Mantyke and Tentacool being the only other Pokemon with an initial stat that high. Mantyke is really just a slightly less extreme version of Mantine and I though Malaconda's pre-vo should be a little less like a weaker clone. Tentacool's stats are arranged too differently to be comparable.
Speed: Slow Pokemon's pre-vos are usually faster relative to their other stats, and 40 Base Speed seemed reasonable. Slow Pokemon simply do not change their speed stat that much, they have basically incremental increases (10-15 pts) and their other stats change a lot more in comparison.
Essentially this spread while still being plausibly related to Malaconda is in some places more subdued and other places more exaggerated. The HP and Attack of the pre-vo are significantly reduced, while the gulf between SpA and SpD is widened significantly on a visual and percentage basis. While Malaconda's HP and SpD are in similar leagues (and even it's attack is comparable), the pre-vo spread clearly favors a strong Special Defensive approach that grows into a more balanced and whole adult. It's different enough to have its own niche but similar enough to be a plausible younger form.
[17:53] <&Deck_Knight> If I Cite and Prune CiteandPrune's post, what does that make me?
[17:54] <Birkal> a citeandprune cite and prunner
[17:54] <%DHR> O_o lol
[17:54] <+Mos_Quitoxe> Cite and Prune doesn't do enough of either
[17:55] <+Mos_Quitoxe> can we make him change it or force him to pay damages
[17:55] <&Deck_Knight> It would be a lot easier for him to Cite and Prune if we made him a mod.
[17:56] <&Deck_Knight> I delegate this task to Birkal.
[17:57] <Birkal> >:|
Last edited by Deck Knight; Jun 10th, 2013 at 7:12:14 PM.
|Jun 8th, 2013, 10:52:29 PM||#6|
Supreme Master of Trivia
Join Date: May 2010
I wanted to hit the same total BST as everyone mentioned before, while also retaining some of the uncharacteristic Special Bulkiness that we have come to expect of Malaconda. I also wanted to retain the same ordering of the magnitude of the base stats.
HP and SpDef are derived by looking at a similar specially defensive behemoth, Tentacruel. In that case Tentacool goes from 40/100 to 80/120. With that in mind, I see a drop of 45 and 25 (instead of 40 and 20) to be reasonable, in order to compensate for the fact that Malaconda's special bulk is higher to begin with.
Speed is pretty easy to find out. Cacnea, Corphish, Golett, Omanyte, and Mareep all go from 35 to 55 upon evolving, so I thought it was a logical spot to be.
Starting from a Base 40 SpAtk, I decided that I had to go to 20, following the only 2-stage precedent I could find (Makuhita and Hariyama.)
Wanting to keep Def>Speed, I set the Prevo's Defense at 40. And then, to suit the BST, Atk fell into line at 60.
EDIT: Seeing as mine is 5 off and 5 off from Deck's, I'll just say go Deck! woo.
Best. Match. Ever.
To see the other best match ever, go to DetroitLolcat's signature.
Last edited by srk1214; Jun 8th, 2013 at 10:58:42 PM. Reason: same...
|Jun 9th, 2013, 12:23:18 AM||#7|
likes his numbers
Join Date: Sep 2010
Strong as a Corsola
Pre-evo: 65/65/40/20/95/35 - BST 320
Malaconda: 115/100/60/40/130/55 - BST 500
Like a lot of people, I often like basing my prevo stat spreads around existing Pokemon, often ones with similar stat spreads. This time is no exception. However, similar stats do not always imply the same BSTs, and in this case I didn't really find that any of the other 500 BST Pokemon had a similar enough spread to be worth using as a base. Instead, the Pokemon who caught my eye for a good comparison was actually Excadrill. Sitting only 8 points higher in BST, Excadrill shares a similar spread of one very high stat, one high stat, one middling stat, and 3 lower ones. Obviously the comparison is not exact, but I think it works better than any other Pokemon with a stat total in the high 400s, low 500s area.
So, starting off with Excadrill as a base, I looked at each stat, compared it to the corresponding stat on Excadrill (ie Malaconda's SpD to Excadrill's Atk), and chopped off the exact same amount as the difference in that stat between Excadrill and Drillbur. This gave me a spread of 65/80/40/20/80/35. This also put the BST at 320. I know a lot of people are going with 330 due to the precedence of some BST 500 Pokemon, seeing as I was using a higher than 500 BST Pokemon as my base, if it can have a slightly lower than 330 BST, I didn't see a reason why that would be a problem here. Variation in these things is frequent anyways.
But, while this was a good starting point, I didn't think that this looked good for our prevo. Since Malaconda has a lower high stat (SpD) and a higher middling stat (Atk) when compared to Excadrill, when the same prevo-evo stat differences were applied, you end up with the two stats being the same, rather than still largely separated like on Drillbur. I don't think this is how it should be, so to fix it up, I looked back to a Pokemon who does indeed share Malaconda's 500 BST: Muk.
While the similarities are not quite as pronounced as with Excadrill, Muk, like Malaconda, has three 100+ Stats and three lower stats. Its prevo, Grimer, however, has the third highest stat drop off significantly more than the other top two, putting it at the exact same value as one of the other stats. Now, having used Drillbur as a starting point, HP already dropped off a lot more than any of Grimer's stats, but I decided to somewhat parallel Grimer by having the third highest stat, Attack, drop off by an extra 15 to put it on par with another stat (HP). To keep the BST from dropping too low, I added the 15 dropped points back to SpD so that it still has the same specially bulky type build as its evolution.
<Destiny_Warrior> jas will you do the dramatic reading
<jas61292> I can't do anything dramatically. Not the actor type
<Kadew> type tldr prc posts dramatically, then
<Kadew> I'm sure you can manage that .
|Jun 9th, 2013, 3:32:36 AM||#8|
Join Date: Dec 2008
Prevo Stats: 80/70/40/20/90/30 - BST 330
Malaconda: 115/100/60/40/130/55 - BST 500
Differences - 35/30/30/20/40/25
As most people have said, I based my submission on the various Pokemon whose stats revolve around the 330 -> 500 mark. I also looked up various other Pokemon with large jumps between their base stats in terms of their defences and offences. As Deck Knight pointed out, Mantyke is pretty special here as it validates quite huge jumps in terms of the differences in stats (20 Attack to 120 Special Defence).
However, I also looked at several other Pokemon with big differences in Spcl Attack and Spcl Def. Hitmonlee (Who has huge Att and Spcl Def and not a lot of Def or Spcl Att; very similar to Malaconda), Drowzee and Ferroseed. They gave me the go ahead to have a huge jump in the stats from Spcl Att to Spcl Def.
I'll probably post some more reasoning later :) Nice spreads everyone so far!
EDIT: MORE REASONING.
After reviewing several other Pokemon Muk stood out as something that had very similar overall stats to Malconda, but Grimer wasn't that good of a base for Miniconda. The HP is a pretty standard increase from a prevo to a fully evolved mon, and probably changes more than any other stat in the majority of Pokemon. The other stats I went for the semi typical "30 to 40 point drop". Only a few Pokemon really change that formula. I didn't want a 100 base stat in my lineup, so I dropped my spcl Def down to 90 (Which is still pretty high; Mime Jr. has 90 spcl def too). This closed up the gap between my highest and lowest stats to 70, which I think is OK considering Mantyke's colossal 100 point gap.
I'm on a mission to train every Pokemon Family during a playthrough of 3rd to 5th Gen! Currently at: 532/602!
Current Team (White 2 [6 badges]): Ninetales/Zoroark/Mr Mime/Cherrim/Sawsbuck/Swampert
Current Team (Black 2): Solrock/Emboar/Sunflora/Crobat/Dunsparce/Azumarill
Last edited by DHR-107; Jun 11th, 2013 at 7:55:00 AM.
|Jun 9th, 2013, 5:10:21 AM||#9|
Join Date: Sep 2012
Malaconda: 115/100/60/40/130/55 - BST 500
Miniconda: 60/70/30/30/65/75 - BST 320
Changes upon evolving: +55/+30/+30/+10/+65/-20
So my stat spread's unique selling point is the drop in speed upon evolution. There's a surprisingly large amount of pokemon that sacrifice speed for extra bulk and attacking power upon evolution, such as Magmortar, Electivire, Tangrowth, Magnezone, Scizor, Octillary. I always find it pretty cool when pokemon do this but it works especially well if Miniconda is going to have legs that it looses upon evolution.
The other stats now aim to compliment the fact that Miniconda is changing from a small, agile pokemon to a slow, bulky one. Proportionally, its biggest gains upon evolving are in its defense (which doubles), HP (which nearly doubles) and special defense (which also doubles). Attack and special attack rise too, but not by as much proportionally.
I've stuck to the 330 BST that other people have suggested and won't repeat their reasoning.
Also, great spreads so far from everyone else. Wish I could offer some critiques but they're all pretty good as they are.
Last edited by Base Speed; Jun 11th, 2013 at 10:58:47 AM.
|Jun 10th, 2013, 1:46:47 PM||#10|
It's Great! To Be! A Michigan Wolverine!
Join Date: Apr 2010
Okay, I've finished moving, have my Internet set up, and am ready to finally contribute to this discussion!
Here are the stats that all you Little Cup statheads can use to optimize CAP 5's pre-evolution. Keep in mind that this Pokemon will not be in the Little Cup metagame and that justifying your reasoning using Little Cup stats is not necessary. But if you feel like making Malaconda's little buddy a Little Cup warrior, who am I to stop you?
Little Cup Stats
Also, I'm going to put a 36 hour warning on this thread. Usually this discussion runs about three to four days so we'll keep that going. This thread will close at approximately 1 AM CST on June 12, 2013.
Also, In order to be placed on the slate, make sure to label your spread as a Final Submission. If your spread is not labelled as a Final Submission, then your spread will not be considered for slating.
I'll edit this post with some feedback on every spread as the day goes on, WIPs included. Great discussion so far everybody, let's keep it going!
Okay, here's some feedback.
Eagle4- Cool spread! Drapion is definitely a Pokemon that just seems "similar" to Malaconda in design. Both Drapion and Malaconda are menacing-looking Pokemon, although the comparison isn't perfect since Skorupi isn't a Dark type, obviously. The Attack reasoning is definitely clever. I love this stage of the process for pre-evolutions because the people submitting spreads always dig up these obscure trivia about random pre-evolutions, which is always fascinating. Heh, looks like this spread is just as much like Nuzleaf as Skorupi. Fans of Nuzleaf and Skorupi, you know who to vote for! :)
The Reptile- Hmm, modeling this Pokemon after Mienshao, are we? Well, that definitely makes sense! Looks like 330 is the most popular BST for our diminutive serpent. This is definitely a "modest" stat spread in that no stat goes above 90, so that definitely makes this spread very realistic. The Attack makes plenty of sense since you're using Mienfoo as a base. Overall solid spread, definitely. Looks like fans of Little Cup's most feared Fighter have a spread to back!
Deck Knight- Going bold with the Special Defense! Gap of 45 HP makes sense as you've explained, the 60 Attack stat has been tacked by the poster above, and the Special Attack/Special Defense ratio argument is plenty clever. Hmm, you're right about slow Pokemon not changing their Speed very much; Phanpy->Donphan is +10, Chansey->Blissey is +5, Frillish->Jellicent is +20, etc. So Mala Pre-vo has a well reasoned Speed stat if this one were to win the poll!
jas61292- People who don't like the number 330 will like this spread! Excadrill is an interesting Pokemon to base your spread around, especially since Malaconda and Excadrill seem like polar opposites as Pokemon. However, your reasoning makes sense; Excadrill has one high stat, a good stat, an average stat, and three poor stats.
DHR-107- Mantyke is a natural fit for Prevo to be based off of. Mantine has a great Special Defense, poor Defense, good Special Attack, poor Attack, which is just like Malaconda but with the Attack stats switched. Malaconda definitely has some pretty big gaps between its stats (although not on a Mantine-like level), so Mantyke seems like a good Pokemon to base Prevo on. It's probably the Pokemon I would have looked at if I could submit a stat spread. Just like Mantine is a "Special Skarmory" (look it up, it's a Physical/Special swap of Skarmory), Malaconda is a "Specially Defensive Skarmory" in that it's built a lot like Skarm but with a Specially Defensive flair. Cool spread!
Base Speed- Definitely the most unique spread on the table! It's true that plenty of Pokemon actually lose Speed upon evolving, so there's plenty of precedent to justify the 75 Speed. Hmm, it seems you're rooting your argument in Miniconda having legs, so artists take note! If this guy wins the poll you're putting legs on your design! This is also one of the most balanced spreads around, not going particularly high on the Special Defense like the other submissions are. It looks like you see Miniconda as an agile, attacking Pokemon. Definitely cool!
Well, that's all the feedback I have. Most of it really isn't "constructive criticism" as much as it is "argument consolidation", but I'm okay with that since these are flavor arguments and it's silly to call out these well-reasoned arguments as "bad flavor". Remember, everybody besides Deck Knight, to label your spreads as Final Submission or else Deck Knight will be running unopposed! About 23 hours left until the poll closes as the time of this edit, so you've still all got a day to tweak and criticize and the like.
Also, if you've been lurking this thread, go ahead and post a spread. The worst that can happen is that you don't win the poll and it's fun to draw up obscure trivia to base these stats around! :)
Favorite Pokemon-Swampert- formerly OU and staying that way.
Cats are awesome, the best kind of cat is the Detroit Lion!
Lolcat Nuzlocke Story
Last edited by DetroitLolcat; Jun 11th, 2013 at 2:52:07 AM.
|Jun 12th, 2013, 2:01:19 AM||#11|
It's Great! To Be! A Michigan Wolverine!
Join Date: Apr 2010
Double posting, hooray! Well, boo, actually. It means nobody submitted a spread in the last 36 hours! Well, at least people finished their reasoning and gave us a great slate of options.
All five people that created Final Submissions will move on to the poll, since there's no point in culling a slate of five well-reasoned spreads. Those five people, of course, are, in no particular order:
The poll will be posted shortly. Thanks to everyone who discussed and contributed!