UU Suspect Discussion - Gothitelle

[SpecsX]

Originally Posted by Fat hilarious

Is Shadow Tag possibly being banned or Gothitelle possibly being banned or is it too soon to contemplate any sort of ban? I just see no point in stripping UU, RU, and NU of a Pokemon, even if it is almost useless when it is clearly not broken (nobody thinks Frisk Gothitelle is broken right?) It would also help deal with Chandelure if Shadow Tag gets released so we wouldn't have to deal with Chandelure. All we lose is Wynaut which is pretty much never used even in never used.

FRISK GOTHITELLE IS BROKEN YOU FOOL! YOU CAN SEE THEIR ITEMS!
Ok, on a serious note, ST Goth would not help deal with Chandy, as pokemon with ST can switch out of others with that ability. In any case, Chandulure wouldn't switch out, it would kill you with Shadow Ball.(not to mention Chandulure will probably move up to OU with Shadow Tag)

[probationsmack]

This reminds me of the chandelure discussions in that a lot of people's arguments often bring up the point that shadow tag users can't freely switch into whatever. That's really not the threat. The threat is stuff like forcing a revenge check (like a scarf user) to commit to a specific attack and leaving them wide open to the trapper's antics if they resist said attack. The threat is successful double switches or uturn/voltswitch pivots from powerhouses like darmanitan and raikou that very much force you to call in a specific counter or get wrecked otherwise.

It all reeks of some agenda that I can't quite put a face to, or maybe just plain contrarianism.

[Ace Emerald]

Originally Posted by Fat SpecsX

FRISK GOTHITELLE IS BROKEN YOU FOOL! YOU CAN SEE THEIR ITEMS!
Ok, on a serious note, ST Goth would not help deal with Chandy, as pokemon with ST can switch out of others with that ability. In any case, Chandulure wouldn't switch out, it would kill you with Shadow Ball.(not to mention Chandulure will probably move up to OU with Shadow Tag)

"It" in his sentence referred to a ban on Shadow Tag, not ST Gothitelle. What he was saying is that banning Shadow Tag now deals with the problem of Shadow Tag Chandelure later.

[cim]

Originally Posted by Fat Ace Emerald

What he was saying is that banning Shadow Tag now deals with the problem of Shadow Tag Chandelure later.

This probably wouldn't be the case, since Chandelure would probably be OU at that time and thus be banned anyway.

Like all things that might be broken, I'm going to try to abuse the hell out of it before commenting. I've been looking for support Pokemon that can trap Heracross counters to help aid for a sweep, and it looks like Gothitelle has a lot of options for that. Trick, Tickle + Pursuit on something else, and decent SpA to name a few.

[PK Gaming]

Originally Posted by Fat hilarious

Is Shadow Tag possibly being banned or Gothitelle possibly being banned or is it too soon to contemplate any sort of ban? I just see no point in stripping UU, RU, and NU of a Pokemon, even if it is almost useless when it is clearly not broken (nobody thinks Frisk Gothitelle is broken right?) It would also help deal with Chandelure if Shadow Tag gets released so we wouldn't have to deal with Chandelure. All we lose is Wynaut which is pretty much never used even in never used.

That's a very good question. Regardless of what choice we pick (blanket banning Shadow Tag VS banning ST Gothitelle/ST Chandelure) we run into issues on both sides.

Personally, i'd rather not lose Chandelure period, but I don't think its a question we can answer as of now. It's a bridge we'll have to cross eventually though.

[alexwolf]

As far as i know, we only ban an ability if it is broken on everything that gets it, which means that for Shadow Tag to get banned as an ability from UU, Wynaut would have to be broken as well, which i doubt will ever happen. So the only solution is to ban Gothitelle (if it is deemed as broken) and Chandelure (which will definitely be broken).

[reachzero]

The whole point of that rule of thumb is to avoid banning Pokemon that are useful and balanced in the crossfire. Banning Flash Fire Chandelure would be much worse for UU than banning Wynaut would be, and I would think that would be self-evident.

[DestinyUnknown]

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

As far as i know, we only ban an ability if it is broken on everything that gets it, which means that for Shadow Tag to get banned as an ability from UU, Wynaut would have to be broken as well, which i doubt will ever happen. So the only solution is to ban Gothitelle (if it is deemed as broken) and Chandelure (which will definitely be broken).

Everything that get Shadow Tag, (except for NFE pokemon with terrible stats) are broken with it, so I think we can apply this here, as counting NFE pokemon for this is dumb. If we applied that ''rule'' including NFE pokemon no ability would be ever be broken unless it was something ridiculous like Drought / some ability that no NFE pokemon got.

[kokoloko*]

The only reason I haven't deleted the past ~12 posts is because I guess something "constructive" is coming out of them. However, this is not a "should we ban the Ability or the Pokemon" thread--it's a suspect discussion thread. Lets get back to the topic at hand, please.

[cim]

Originally Posted by Fat SpecsX

Correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't suspect threads supposed to be about banning/not banning things?

he's talking about the side discussion on banning something that isn't Gothitelle.

To keep this on topic, what are some key abusable Gothitelle sets? I'm going to try some out today... Is TrickScarf useful? Tickle? Dual Screens? Some combination of the three? (I could see Trick / Psychic / (coverage) / Tickle being useful with a Pursuiter in the wings)

[Ace Emerald]

Originally Posted by Fat cim

he's talking about the side discussion on banning something that isn't Gothitelle.

To keep this on topic, what are some key abusable Gothitelle sets? I'm going to try some out today... Is TrickScarf useful? Tickle? Dual Screens? Some combination of the three? (I could see Trick / Psychic / (coverage) / Tickle being useful with a Pursuiter in the wings)

TrickScarf and Specs are the best imo. Tickle+Pursuit is alright, but its a lot of set up when you could either hammer the wall out of existence with specs, or ruin it with Trick. The same result, but faster and makes it a more versatile teammate (TrickScarf can revenge kill, Specs can be a generally powerful attacker).

[kokoloko*]

You're thinking too much (or not enough, I guess).

You want to design a Gothitelle that eliminates its teammates counters, not a generic "this is good on many teams" set. Specs is by far the best at doing this, but the moves it uses can vary a whole lot depending on what you're using with it. If you're using Scarf MoxieCross, you'll want Hidden Power Ice for Gligar and max/near max Speed to ensure it doesn't just U-turn out. If you're using Raikou, you'll want Grass Knot to get rid of Rhyperior / Swampert, Psyshock to severely hurt Snorlax, and probably Trick to cripple Umbreon.

The way you're thinking is probably more applicable to a Scarf set, but even then, you'll really want to think about what your team is trying to accomplish before picking its moves.

Tickle seems bad since you cant Encore with it like Woobbuffett could. It might work with Weavile / Honchkrow, but I doubt there's going to be many situations where you could safely Tickle something to the point where a no-switch Pursuit kills it.

[reachzero]

I'm using Scarf Gothitelle with Psyshock/HP Ice/Shadow Ball/Grass Knot, and I'm #1 on the PS ladder with it. The thing about Gothitelle that really breaks the metagame in half is that it makes a whole bunch of Pokemon almost complete liabilities--Scarf Gothitelle OHKOs Nidoking, OHKOs Roserade with Stealth Rock, OHKOs Rhyperior, destroys Gligar (Gligar dies to Stealth Rock on the next switch-in even if it U-Turns out after the HP Ice), etc. Specifically, Gothi makes it outrageously easy to sweep with Heracross, and generally remove problematic Pokemn. Gothitelle doesn't need to kill three Pokemon per game to be great (although that does happen against certain teams that weren't built with Gothi in mind), it just needs to kill the one Pokemon per game that the enemy team absolutely cannot afford to die, and Gothitelle is very good at guaranteeing exactly that.

[hilarious]

Hmmm i have finally started to use Goth and I like using it. i have been using it with plenty a core of pure fire basically, LO Darm, Scarf Victini and LO Arcanine which is pretty hot. Basically no bulky water/rock/fire can stand to triple fire onslaught and they are extremely easy to get in safely as long as you can spin which is not very hard (I also use Taunt Azelf to lead usually which stops most SR users). If you thought V-Create hurts, FB from Arcanine does just as much with a lesser drawback and FB from Darmanitan absolutely wrecks.

But how does goth play into this? I said "basically" no pokemon will be left standing, except of course Slowbro because regenrator and defensive Suicune because it has astounding bulk. I used to use Zoro (as Arcanine and Darm when I realized no Intimidate was a hint) to try and fool them but apparently ladder players aren't as stupid as you guys bash them as. Then i tried instead of fooling them by making them stay in I tried using Crobat instead to make them switch into me because a CB Brave Bird HURTS but it did only ~40% to Slowbro. That sort of sucks. So I began to use Goth and it really is terrifying when coupled with powerhouses. No prediction is needed, and my opponent is put in a terrible postion not through their error or my smartyness but just because a combination of a few pokemon that cannot be dealt with. There are only a few counters to LO Darm including Slowbro and Rhyperior so when they come in all I need to do is U-turn and they lose their Fire resist - against a team that abuses three fires no less!

Essentially Goth is a Pokemon that allows you to remove or cripple: bulky waters, Roserade, Nidoking, Gligar and all sorts of tanks and walls 95% of the time at your pleasure. i don't think its broken though because all of this can be attributed to the fact it has shadow tag, not because Goth himself is broken but apparently i'm not supposed to talk about wanting shadow tag gone instead?!? I understand that this thread is about suspecting Goth and not suspecting shadow tag, so can I talk about Shadow Tag like this: I don't think Goth should be banned because only its ability is broken which means it would make far more sense to ban ST+Goth (if possible) or just ST.

[PK Gaming]

Originally Posted by Fat reachzero

I'm using Scarf Gothitelle with Psyshock/HP Ice/Shadow Ball/Grass Knot, and I'm #1 on the PS ladder with it. The thing about Gothitelle that really breaks the metagame in half is that it makes a whole bunch of Pokemon almost complete liabilities--Scarf Gothitelle OHKOs Nidoking, OHKOs Roserade with Stealth Rock, OHKOs Rhyperior, destroys Gligar (Gligar dies to Stealth Rock on the next switch-in even if it U-Turns out after the HP Ice), etc. Specifically, Gothi makes it outrageously easy to sweep with Heracross, and generally remove problematic Pokemn. Gothitelle doesn't need to kill three Pokemon per game to be great (although that does happen against certain teams that weren't built with Gothi in mind), it just needs to kill the one Pokemon per game that the enemy team absolutely cannot afford to die, and Gothitelle is very good at guaranteeing exactly that.

I completely agree with Reach. Even if Gothi gets a single kill (or none at all; even weakening Pokemon is enough at times) it's still enough to swing a match in the Gothitelle users favor.

Gothitelle allows a player to effectively eliminate the only real way to counter UUs higher powered physical attackers (Heracross & Darmanitan, and a few more!!). Gothitelle has some flaws, but at the end of the day I find that it's just too effective at trapping. Wynaut can also trap, but its nowhere near as effective at Gothitelle. Pokemon like Gothitelle really disrupt the flow of the game, and ruin the core aspect as to what Pokemon is primarily based on based on, team work.

[FlareBlitz]

Get ready for a dissenting opinion.

I don't think Gothitelle is particularly broken at this point in time. If I see it on the team preview, I don't worry nearly as much as if I see Darmantian or Zapdos or Kingdra or even Weavile. Maybe it's the kind of teams I build, but if it is, I imagine that lots of people feel similarly due to how the top players basically use variations on the same cores and pokemon.

Gothitelle is slow and relatively frail if running a Choice Specs set, and weak, frail, and not even particularly fast if running a Scarf set. It's true that Gothitelle is almost guaranteed a kill if it gets in on the correct Pokemon, but that's not saying much in a metagame like this one - there are plenty of Pokemon with better typing, better speed, and better offensive stats who guarantee multiple kills a game when played as well as Gothitelle needs to be played. You say Gothitelle makes it easy to remove bulky waters, and I say that running a lure or a powerful physical attacker makes it just as easy. You say gothitelle destroys stall, I say that I've been destroying stall much more easily for 4 rounds with Togekiss.

The nature of Shadow Tag makes comparing Gothitelle to other threats difficult, because it's singularly frustrating to have an important Pokemon trapped and KO'd, and it's almost equally as satisfying to trap and remove an important Pokemon to allow your sweeper free reign. That's understandable, but at the same time, we need to realize that there are Pokemon who are more threatening to an opposing team's defense / synergy even without the ability to trap. Think about it in the context of chess - when you check an opposing king, the king is forced to move. But "forced moves" don't just encompass moves that legally require the opponent to move - they also encompass unfavorable moves that the opponent has to make (lest he lose immediately). A good offensive team forces the opposing team make plenty of these moves throughout the course of a match (known as "offensive pressure"). Since I build good offensive teams, I found gothitelle's ability to trap and remove threats almost redundant.

I realize that trapping abilities are powerful; Arena Trap caused a Pokemon like Dugtrio to be 3 tiers higher than it would otherwise be. But in my opinion, Gothitelle is too statistically inferior and possessed of typing that is too synergestically mediocre in this metagame to contribute more to one of my teams than another Pokemon that is more specific to that team's needs would. For example, if I were building a team around weakening and disrupting a physically-defensive core so that Heracross or Darmantian could sweep, I would be much better served with a pokemon like Weavile or Honchkrow. Not only could they facilitate the team's goal just as well, they also have the potential to benefit from Heracross or Darmantian weakening the opponent and secure a sweep themselves. Gothitelle will never sweep a well-built team. Its sole purpose is to remove important Pokemon, and I don't think it's good enough outside that role to justify using it over other specific offensive Pokemon that can remove important Pokemon in a more subtle fashion while also contributing a threatening presence outside that context.

[NGC-2024]

One thing I love about Gothitelle is that it makes hazards very easy to keep on the field, as it fairs well against most, if not all spinners in the tier. Blastoise can be problematic if it gets a (torrent) crit, but that stands true for every pokemon, doesn't it? lol

[Chimera404]

Well, I have to agree that Gothitelle makes it too easy for a Heracross/Darmanitan sweep, and even easier if you have a team built around Gothitelle.

The only things that can really wall Darmanitan in the first place are physically oriented bulky waters (Slowbro, Suicune, etc.), Pokemon with Intimidate (Defensive Hitmontop, Arcanine) and stuff like defensive Rhyperior. Only bulky waters are a surefire counter as Arcanine, Rhyperior and even Swampert are still outsped and 2hko'd by LO/Choice Band variants.
A team without any of these is toast as STAB Sheer Force Flare Blitz will kill 2-3 Pokemon before recoil takes Darmanitan down.

Heracross is arguably harder to beat defensively due to its STAB moves. Only bulky ghosts are truly safe, especially from the Choice Scarf variants, which generally carry CC, Megahorn and Edgequake and are pretty much impossible to wall without proper prediction and/or sacking a team member. LO and Flame Orb variants aren't as good, because of that base 85 speed. Great wallbreaker, but doesn't sweep.

Gothitelle has an interesting niche here. Trapping and eliminating bulky waters is awesome, because once it does so Darmanitan sweeps like a boss. On the other hand, it actually deters Heracross slightly as nobody is going to Choice-lock themselves into CC while Gothitelle is still alive, allowing you to counter it with something that doesn't take such a ridiculous beating from Megahorn.

Overall, I'd argue that it's going to mess up the metagame, simply because it makes HO so much more deadly, and Stall so much more junk.

Edit:
Also, FlareBlitz,
It's true that Gothitelle will never sweep. It's also true that it seriously deters choice users because Gothitelle CAN revenge kill a large portion of the offensive metagame. It's also not a 1-trick puppy; it can come in more than once, possibly to trick off a Choice Scarf/Specs. I completely agree that a Pokemon as completely mediocre as Gothitelle can be replaced with something more deadly, but not always.

My team, as an example, heavily relies on an offensive core of Darmanitan/Roserade/Kingdra with Togekiss as stallbreaker. My worst nightmare with this team is facing either RegiBro or a defensive core of Ferroseed/Suicune, who can swap around, playing around Choice Scarf Darmanitan and generally not giving a shit about Kingdra (+1 Outrage doesn't 2hko Suicune) OR Roserade. Nasty Plot Togekiss at +2 3hkos both cores except for Registeel, who is 2hko'd by Aura Sphere, and can generally get a sweep if the opponent doesn't have a revenge killer (I played you once, didn't I, FlareBlitz?). However, even that requires a bit of prediction and playing around Leech Seed and Twave, as well as faster offensive Pokemon.

When I replace Togekiss or another Pokemon with Gothitelle, I end up being able to trap either member of the cores and hit them hard with the appropriate coverage move of choice, be it Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, or a HP of choice. It can also trickscarf them, which cripples most defensive Pokemon. It may not have any use after killing its first target, but if Heracross is on the opponent team it deters it from using Close Combat in fear of a revenge kill, which otherwise wrecks my team.

[Chou Toshio]

For everyone who pointed out the "Pursuit destroys Goth." I'm going to point out that this this is completely irrelevant when discussing Goth's Trick + Tickle tactics.

When Goth is abusing Shadow Tag to use these non-attacking / team play strategies, Pursuit and U-Turn basically become irrelevant, as once Goth gets in against her "target," she will essentially be able to trick/tickle as she pleases before switching to a teammate, accomplishing her goal while giving you no opportunity to abuse Pursuit (or U-Turn) against her.

But I hate Slowbro, so I'm loving this little baby in the tier for a while :D

[MysticNova]

I'm using Scarf Gothitelle with Psyshock/HP Ice/Shadow Ball/Grass Knot, and I'm #1 on the PS ladder with it. The thing about Gothitelle that really breaks the metagame in half is that it makes a whole bunch of Pokemon almost complete liabilities--Scarf Gothitelle OHKOs Nidoking, OHKOs Roserade with Stealth Rock, OHKOs Rhyperior, destroys Gligar (Gligar dies to Stealth Rock on the next switch-in even if it U-Turns out after the HP Ice), etc. Specifically, Gothi makes it outrageously easy to sweep with Heracross, and generally remove problematic Pokemn. Gothitelle doesn't need to kill three Pokemon per game to be great (although that does happen against certain teams that weren't built with Gothi in mind), it just needs to kill the one Pokemon per game that the enemy team absolutely cannot afford to die, and Gothitelle is very good at guaranteeing exactly that.

Couldn't have said it better myself, although I prefer a Specs set with Psyshock/HP Ice/ Grass Knot/ Thunderbolt, since Grass Knot doesn't hit hard enough on certain pokemon and Thunderbolt provides good coverage. I've never had a situation where I needed Shadow Ball. It's probably better with Scarf though.

Gothitelle is also in no way frail. 70/95/110 is better than Hitmontop and from experience, Gothitelle is extremely bulky and can survive a multitude of neutral hits. As much as I love using Goth, I find she is rather detrimental to the game and, when played right, is broken. It gives you so much ease of mind to see Roserade, Swampert, etc. in Team Preview because you just think "haha, they're already dead", and they really are. Gothitelle ability to wreck almost every defensive core is just too powerful and will, 95% of the time, get at least one kill per game, even against offensive teams.

[TPO3]

^Not that it matters, but 70/95/110 isn't neccessarily better than Hitmontop. It has the same special bulk, except Hitmontop often maxes out HP and Defense in addition to intimidate.

Again, it doesn't really matter though. Gothitelle rips through any defensive core easily. While it might not beat the entire core, it gets 1 or 2 kills that creates too much stress on the rest of the team, and will result in the opposing team getting overpowerd. Not to mention Scarf Gothitelle can singlehandedly beat down a bunch of offensive threats, including but not limited to Nidoking, Mienshao, Roserade, Non-scarfed Heracross or scarfed Heracross locked into Close Combat, Swampert, and Azelf. IF we look at banning Gothitelle under the "support" characteristic, it fits it perfectly, for the same reason Wobuffet was banned in DPP.

tl;dr: Gothitelle rips apart cores, offensive and defensive alike, creates too much stress to handle, and wins. It doesn't win directly, but it wins.

[Chou Toshio]

getting ahead of gligar seems really important. Even if you don't have a powerful HP Ice to blast it with, the scarf set still screws gligar with trick (and any other eviolite-dependent poke, like Porygon2)

[HuntSaboteur]

You do realise that banning Gothitelle has been unanimously voted against in RU, so I can't see how it will affect UU much.

[reachzero]

UU has much better and more threatening sweepers than RU does. RU teambuilding is completely different than UU teambuilding. And, of course, I'm not convinced that as many people have really thought through how to abuse Gothi to the gills in RU, but I'm willing to be convinced of that one.

[kokoloko*]

I was literally just about to delete the post above reachzero's when he ninja'd me. I'm posing just to add that RU had decided against quickbanning Gothitelle, not against banning it in general--there's a difference (anyone remember Cresselia?)

Not to mention, what reach said is right, UU has much better ways to take advantage of Gothitelle's trapping abilities than either RU or NU. Anyway, I don't want this to turn into an RU discussion, and I believe your concern was addressed properly, so let this be the last post on the matter.