Dream World General Metagame Discussion

Zephyr · Jan 23rd, 2012, 9:43:00 PM

Hello and welcome to Dream World OU - The image that BW OU is supposed to eventually look like. As both tiers evolve, the idea is that they will ultimately result into one tier, which will from then on be our official Generation 5 OU tier in its completed form.

Now that we have this forum set up for Dream World, its time to get some official tests going.

A lot of Pokemon that are banned in BW OU are still roaming the lands of Dream World. Those include powerhouses such as Garchomp, Manaphy, Thundurus, Excadrill, and Blaziken and the premier hazard layer Deoxys-S. Dream World also features many other unique pokemon such as Technician Breloom and Shadow Tag Chandelure as well as unreleased giants like Genesect and Keldeo.

Keep the discussion here civil and make sure to back up your points with damage calcs and logs whenever possible and relevant.

Will Shadow Tag Chandelure prove to be a premier threat as capturing and dismantling teams? Or could Keldeo prove too be the premier Water-type sweeper that Suicune longs too be this generation? And will old titans of the BW OU tier once against demonstrate that they are too good for OU? Only time will tell!

AOPSUser · Jan 23rd, 2012, 10:25:39 PM

I can't speak for others, but I play DW OU just to use Imposter Ditto. Ditto is one of the best revenge killers in the metagame and there is really no way to counter it other than by using Scarf Pokemon and hoping to win the Speed tie. (Or by tricking the Scarf.)

I really think some of the Pokemon that got unbanned with the start of DW OU shouldn't really be running around in any metagame.

Blaziken has a few shaky counters at best. Here's hoping to list some:

-Jellicent
-Slowbro
-uhh...

Manaphy should go. It has access to a move to boost its Special Attack 3 stages along with the dreaded Hydration-Rest which makes a lot of people ragequit on Vaporeon. I mean, I suppose you could ban Drizzle+Hydration, but do we really need that many complex bans?

I feel we should give Garchomp, Excadrill, and Thundurus a second chance in DW. Other than that, there is no reason to keep any other Uber.

Steamroll · Jan 23rd, 2012, 11:01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat AOPSUser

Manaphy should go. It has access to a move to boost its Special Attack 3 stages along with the dreaded Hydration-Rest which makes a lot of people ragequit on Vaporeon. I mean, I suppose you could ban Drizzle+Hydration, but do we really need that many complex bans?

MANaphy didn't even need rain in order to get banned from the Clear Skies meta. So a complex ban is pretty pointless to attempt to neuter this combonation. If I remember right Manaphy can abuse a SleepTalk set very easily after a few CM boosts and a restchesto Manaphy can easily acrue atleast one boost before resting off damage and just obliterating the opponent.

tomtom5858 · Jan 23rd, 2012, 11:24:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Steamroll

MANaphy didn't even need rain in order to get banned from the Clear Skies meta. So a complex ban is pretty pointless to attempt to neuter this combonation. If I remember right Manaphy can abuse a SleepTalk set very easily after a few CM boosts and a restchesto Manaphy can easily acrue atleast one boost before resting off damage and just obliterating the opponent.

This. And the fact that if the opponent has rain, Manaphy's gonna eat their face.

Ray Jay · Jan 23rd, 2012, 11:25:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Zephyr

Or could Keldeo prove too be the premier Water-type sweeper that Suicune longs too be this generation?

Let's not make this a pattern...

Steamroll · Jan 23rd, 2012, 11:34:33 PM

Ray Jay wears a too too. But in all seriousness I'm willing to bet money that manaphy is the first to go. Sorry my blue little mermaid friend :(

HardCore · Jan 23rd, 2012, 11:50:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Steamroll

Ray Jay wears a too too. But in all seriousness I'm willing to bet money that manaphy is the first to go. Sorry my blue little mermaid friend :(

I can only agree unfortunately. I can't believe Manaphy is still in this tier. It's extremely powerful and can't even be stopped by Blissey in rain or out of rain. It's one thing to say that a Pokemon is hard to stop, but when a Pokemon designed to handle Pokemon like it can't even compete then it's time to go. The worst part about Manaphy never being OU permanently is that this Generation Manaphy will have to worry about scarf Zekrom's in ubers now. In OU however nothing can flat out counter Manaphy. The best checks are LO or Speced Electric Types above base 100 speed.

tomtom5858 · Jan 23rd, 2012, 11:55:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat HardCore

I can only agree unfortunately. I can't believe Manaphy is still in this tier. It's extremely powerful and can't even be stopped by Blissey in rain or out of rain. It's one thing to say that a Pokemon is hard to stop, but when a Pokemon designed to handle Pokemon like it can't even compete then it's time to go. The worst part about Manaphy never being OU permanently is that this Generation Manaphy will have to worry about scarf Zekrom's in ubers now. In OU however nothing can flat out counter Manaphy. The best checks are LO or Speced Electric Types above base 100 speed.

And they're shaky at best after a few Calm Minds. Little mermaid thing, you will be missed.

**Pocket** · Jan 24th, 2012, 12:04:40 AM

LO SD Virizion has a 25% chance of scoring an OHKO on offensive Manaphy with Leaf Blade (87-103%). Serperior can come in a non-Ice Beam and demolish Manaphy with Leaf Storm (79-93%). Both of them beats the defensive CM variants, as well.

EDIT: Virizion & Seperior (Contrary, mind you), sucks????

Zephyr · Jan 24th, 2012, 1:59:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Ray Jay

Let's not make this a pattern...

Bojangles pointed that out to me recently as well. I don't know when I picked up that habbit.

Tiffanyy · Jan 24th, 2012, 2:02:53 AM

DW sounds like it could be fun ;-; i'll try it out and see what happens.
manaphy will be fun and cute. c:

Cherub Agent · Jan 24th, 2012, 6:38:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat tomtom5858

True, but they both suck, so your point is invalid.

Um, no, they most certainly do NOT suck. Serperior is one of the most powerful, fast and bulkiest sweepers in the tier. Virizion is an underrated Pokemon (especially the SD set) with excellent typing and good enough power and coverage that can handle both Rain and Sand teams.

Vein · Jan 24th, 2012, 6:49:34 AM

Serperior don't suck in this tier. I think he'll be one of the best poke around.

But to forcefully run Serp in every team just to counter Manaphy sucks. Just let the sweetie be ubered.

jrrrrrrr · Jan 24th, 2012, 7:41:09 AM

You're not forced to run Serperior lol. Don't make such ridiculously false claims. 100 base Speed is hardly anything and many of the best DW-legal pokemon outrun and destroy it.

This forum has been open for one freakin' day and people are already posting that they want stuff banned. Thank god we put people in charge of this tier instead of doing public voting.

Vein · Jan 24th, 2012, 7:47:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat jrrrrrrr

Thank god we put people in charge of this tier instead of doing public voting.

Agree. We're just regular battlers anyway.

**Taylor** · Jan 24th, 2012, 8:43:16 AM

I reckon that Tyranitar + Garhomp + Exadrill teams will be most popular, and this perhaps dominent force along side with what I use in Thundurus, Genosect and Chandelure. The last three round off the team with some momentum and coverage, and also you can abuse Shadow Tag to trap their Politoed.

I'm guessing most people like msyelf are tempted to use Deoxys-S + Blaziken in some sort of hyper offense. I just think priority will be very common and it won't do him much favours at all. Plus, though Chandelure helps deal with some of Blaziken's counters, a secondary Fire-type might just be one too many.

,

Hawkstar · Jan 24th, 2012, 1:08:05 PM

Rain is also very good with Keldeo to hit hard, along with the newly unbanned Thundurus to dust off its old OU NP set. Zapdos is also an excellent rain team member, since Lightningrod gave it a huge boost in viability a la Storm Drain Gastrodon. I'm not too sure what the top weather will be, but I'm quite sure it will be either rain or sand since sun teams hate both of them and hail is hail.

As for what's looking for a ban, I don't like the idea of having Manaphy back. I think it should've stayed with Darkrai, Shaymin-S, and other early Gen OU brokenmons in the Uber tier. What jrrrrrrr is forgetting is that this tier existed in pretty much the same exact form at the beginning of BW, so those of us that played back then still have less than fond memories of Manaphy and Blaziken and crew tearing holes through everything. However, I can agree with him in that they need retesting. Those Pokemon were only banned from DW OU because of the fact that they were banned from Wifi OU, and not because they had an official suspect test and were found to be broken in DW OU. Until then, I suppose that we can give them a chance, but I don't think they'll be around for long.

Chandelure, on the other hand, is a menace that has been a part of DW OU for a long time. In my opinion, the only thing that keeps me on the fence at all are its weaknesses to SR and Pursuit. Were it weak to neither or only one of the two, I would definitely support banning it. As for now, though, I'm still not sure, but I'm leaning towards a ban. The ability to trap and eliminate anything it can hit hard is something that got Wobbuffet banned in Gen 4. While Wobbuffet got nerfed by the new Encore mechanics and Team Preview, Chandelure is unaffected by either of these. Also, with everyone's favorite Rapid Spinning mole back in OU to take out Tyranitar and Stealth Rock, I can definitely see Chandelure getting banned in the near future.

SoulWind · Jan 24th, 2012, 1:18:47 PM

People should try Gothitelle, a very underrated mon with Shadow Tag and better bulk than Chandelure that can be very problematic if not prepared, bad thing Tyranitar is a hard counter, but it helps a lot when you want to kill x poke. This is the set I tried:

Gothitelle (M) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Shadow Tag
EVs: 80 HP / 120 Def / 252 SAtk / 56 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunderbolt
- Dark Pulse

Matthew · Jan 25th, 2012, 12:47:54 AM

I have climbed to first place on the ladder and I'm really surprised by the lack of Garchomp, Blaziken, and Manaphy on teams. The last most option being seeing rarely, but the former two are almost non-existent. Why is that happen?

Zephyr · Jan 25th, 2012, 12:59:33 AM

I think it's still just too early and people just haven't caught on to using broken shit right away yet. Heh.

KnightoftheWind · Jan 25th, 2012, 1:06:06 AM

I'm the only person I've seen that uses Garchomp. It's just as ridiculous as it was in standard OU, except no-one prepares for it so it's even more potent at pissing people off.

**Taylor** · Jan 25th, 2012, 5:12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat KnightoftheWind

I'm the only person I've seen that uses Garchomp. It's just as ridiculous as it was in standard OU, except no-one prepares for it so it's even more potent at pissing people off.

Do people forget Dragon/Ground has wicked coverage that very few Pokemon actually can successfully resist? On the whole, Garchomp was banned in Standard OU because of Sand Veil. However, the usage statistics allow us to determine that Dragon/Ground hits the first twenty-three Pokemon on the list neutrally. One Swords Dance is all it takes before it starts to wreak havoc; like many of the new and improved movesets available in Dream World.

Chandelure and Genosect control nullifies any attempt coming from the opponent trying to counter the focal point of your offense.

Hawkstar · Jan 25th, 2012, 5:23:58 PM

I've seen Garchomp once so far, besides my own, and it haxed me out of 20 points. Not a good way to start off.

Even so, I still think that only Sand Veil itself should be banned, and Snow Cloak too, under the Evasion Clause. Moody had a 1/7 chance of raising Evasion, and the items did it automatically. However, Tyranitar and Hippowdon combined are on about 20% of teams, giving a statistical chance of Sand Veil being active of 1/5, and I'd be willing to bet that the usage of Tyranitar inceases as you get higher on the ladder. It's not just Garchomp either, as Gliscor is also a competent Sand Veil user, as well as Mamoswine and Frosslass in hail. Garchomp will still be top-tier without Sand Veil, but without its 20% chance to avoid a surefire KO, I think it will be far more manageable, especially with Latios beating pretty much all non-Scarf sets and Ferrothorn around Skarmory and Ferrothorn doing a good job of walling the Scarf set.

ala · Jan 25th, 2012, 5:29:26 PM

Yeah I totally agree with Hawkstar. I've actually lost matches due to missing against Mamowine/Frosslass in ou which is ridiculous. It's been a long time since playing against Rough Skin chomp last year but I can't remember it being nearly as broken. Obviously it'll be one of the very best pokemon, hell even Garchomp with cute charm or w/e would be top tier, but it won't rely on misses to sweep, just skilful play.

idiotfrommars · Jan 25th, 2012, 6:30:42 PM

I've been using Sub Sword Dance Chomp for a few matches and that thing is ridiculous. It's Sand Veil contributed to at least 4 easy wins over about 15 matches in addition to stealing another two at the end that I would have lost. Also with all the Sand around due to a lot of people testing out Excadrill it doesn't even have much competition with regards to the weather war.

Jan 23rd, 2012, 9:43:00 PM	#1
Zephyr Life Stream Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,325 Detroit, Michigan	Dream World General Metagame Discussion Hello and welcome to Dream World OU - The image that BW OU is supposed to eventually look like. As both tiers evolve, the idea is that they will ultimately result into one tier, which will from then on be our official Generation 5 OU tier in its completed form. Now that we have this forum set up for Dream World, its time to get some official tests going. A lot of Pokemon that are banned in BW OU are still roaming the lands of Dream World. Those include powerhouses such as Garchomp, Manaphy, Thundurus, Excadrill, and Blaziken and the premier hazard layer Deoxys-S. Dream World also features many other unique pokemon such as Technician Breloom and Shadow Tag Chandelure as well as unreleased giants like Genesect and Keldeo. Keep the discussion here civil and make sure to back up your points with damage calcs and logs whenever possible and relevant. Will Shadow Tag Chandelure prove to be a premier threat as capturing and dismantling teams? Or could Keldeo prove too be the premier Water-type sweeper that Suicune longs too be this generation? And will old titans of the BW OU tier once against demonstrate that they are too good for OU? Only time will tell! __________________ Your values is a disarrayed, prioritizing horribly Unhappy with the riches cause your piss poor morally Ignoring all prior advice and fore warning, and mighty full of ourselves all of a sudden aren't we? Last edited by Tobes; Mar 8th, 2012 at 8:43:26 PM.

Jan 23rd, 2012, 10:25:39 PM	#2
AOPSUser Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,706 San Diego (GMT -8)	I can't speak for others, but I play DW OU just to use Imposter Ditto. Ditto is one of the best revenge killers in the metagame and there is really no way to counter it other than by using Scarf Pokemon and hoping to win the Speed tie. (Or by tricking the Scarf.) I really think some of the Pokemon that got unbanned with the start of DW OU shouldn't really be running around in any metagame. Blaziken has a few shaky counters at best. Here's hoping to list some: -Jellicent -Slowbro -uhh... Manaphy should go. It has access to a move to boost its Special Attack 3 stages along with the dreaded Hydration-Rest which makes a lot of people ragequit on Vaporeon. I mean, I suppose you could ban Drizzle+Hydration, but do we really need that many complex bans? I feel we should give Garchomp, Excadrill, and Thundurus a second chance in DW. Other than that, there is no reason to keep any other Uber. __________________ My Scramble Compendium CAP ASB Team Shuckle sweep HARVESTTTTTT 23:17 Matezoide WATCHING PILOSWINE 23:17 Matezoide DIE 23:17 Matezoide IT MADE ME 23:17 Matezoide SEXUALLY 23:17 Matezoide AROUSED

Jan 23rd, 2012, 11:34:33 PM	#6
Steamroll Woof Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,750 (*・_・)ノ⌒┻━┻ Mentor	Ray Jay wears a too too. But in all seriousness I'm willing to bet money that manaphy is the first to go. Sorry my blue little mermaid friend :( __________________ *Pokemon Showdown!* \| *#pokemon!* \| *teambats!* *emoticons!* \| *chat logs!* \| *Gen VI!* \| *roller coaster!* \| *Henry!*

Jan 24th, 2012, 12:04:40 AM	#9
Pocket Bakuman ;< Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 7,156 Bergenfield	LO SD Virizion has a 25% chance of scoring an OHKO on offensive Manaphy with Leaf Blade (87-103%). Serperior can come in a non-Ice Beam and demolish Manaphy with Leaf Storm (79-93%). Both of them beats the defensive CM variants, as well. EDIT: Virizion & Seperior (Contrary, mind you), sucks???? __________________ Dark Horse Project: Conquer the Ladder! \| Word of Wisdom for Trainers \| Smogon Doubles: Let's Make It Official! Last edited by Pocket; Jan 24th, 2012 at 12:26:37 AM.

Jan 24th, 2012, 2:02:53 AM	#11
Tiffanyy Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 694	DW sounds like it could be fun ;-; i'll try it out and see what happens. manaphy will be fun and cute. c: __________________ gorgie: this is upsetting gorgie: ive never been this mad at pokemon is very long davidness: no comprendo davidness: gg

Jan 24th, 2012, 6:49:34 AM	#13
Vein Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 1,146 Pinas	Serperior don't suck in this tier. I think he'll be one of the best poke around. But to forcefully run Serp in every team just to counter Manaphy sucks. Just let the sweetie be ubered. __________________ Knicks and knees just don't get along, and until mankind learns to play basketball without using the knees, the Knicks will never win that elusive championship.

Jan 24th, 2012, 7:41:09 AM	#14
jrrrrrrr wubwubwub Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,117 wubwubwub	You're not forced to run Serperior lol. Don't make such ridiculously false claims. 100 base Speed is hardly anything and many of the best DW-legal pokemon outrun and destroy it. This forum has been open for one freakin' day and people are already posting that they want stuff banned. Thank god we put people in charge of this tier instead of doing public voting. __________________ NIGMAN: JRRRR IS A SHIT NIGMAN: HO ESLE THINK IT??

Jan 24th, 2012, 8:43:16 AM	#16
Taylor no.... no i do not look like psyduck Moderator Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 3,987 play?	I reckon that Tyranitar + Garhomp + Exadrill teams will be most popular, and this perhaps dominent force along side with what I use in Thundurus, Genosect and Chandelure. The last three round off the team with some momentum and coverage, and also you can abuse Shadow Tag to trap their Politoed. I'm guessing most people like msyelf are tempted to use Deoxys-S + Blaziken in some sort of hyper offense. I just think priority will be very common and it won't do him much favours at all. Plus, though Chandelure helps deal with some of Blaziken's counters, a secondary Fire-type might just be one too many. ,

Jan 24th, 2012, 1:08:05 PM	#17
Hawkstar Are you hanging by a thread or swinging from the rope? Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 627 Western Pennsylvania	Rain is also very good with Keldeo to hit hard, along with the newly unbanned Thundurus to dust off its old OU NP set. Zapdos is also an excellent rain team member, since Lightningrod gave it a huge boost in viability a la Storm Drain Gastrodon. I'm not too sure what the top weather will be, but I'm quite sure it will be either rain or sand since sun teams hate both of them and hail is hail. As for what's looking for a ban, I don't like the idea of having Manaphy back. I think it should've stayed with Darkrai, Shaymin-S, and other early Gen OU brokenmons in the Uber tier. What jrrrrrrr is forgetting is that this tier existed in pretty much the same exact form at the beginning of BW, so those of us that played back then still have less than fond memories of Manaphy and Blaziken and crew tearing holes through everything. However, I can agree with him in that they need retesting. Those Pokemon were only banned from DW OU because of the fact that they were banned from Wifi OU, and not because they had an official suspect test and were found to be broken in DW OU. Until then, I suppose that we can give them a chance, but I don't think they'll be around for long. Chandelure, on the other hand, is a menace that has been a part of DW OU for a long time. In my opinion, the only thing that keeps me on the fence at all are its weaknesses to SR and Pursuit. Were it weak to neither or only one of the two, I would definitely support banning it. As for now, though, I'm still not sure, but I'm leaning towards a ban. The ability to trap and eliminate anything it can hit hard is something that got Wobbuffet banned in Gen 4. While Wobbuffet got nerfed by the new Encore mechanics and Team Preview, Chandelure is unaffected by either of these. Also, with everyone's favorite Rapid Spinning mole back in OU to take out Tyranitar and Stealth Rock, I can definitely see Chandelure getting banned in the near future. __________________ Art thread! [22:11] Helias: FUCK YOU HAWKSTAR THAT'S NOT MY NAME

Jan 24th, 2012, 1:18:47 PM	#18
SoulWind majestic Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 968 Spain	People should try Gothitelle, a very underrated mon with Shadow Tag and better bulk than Chandelure that can be very problematic if not prepared, bad thing Tyranitar is a hard counter, but it helps a lot when you want to kill x poke. This is the set I tried: Gothitelle (M) @ Choice Specs Trait: Shadow Tag EVs: 80 HP / 120 Def / 252 SAtk / 56 Spd Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk) - Psychic - Hidden Power [Ice] - Thunderbolt - Dark Pulse

Jan 25th, 2012, 12:47:54 AM	#19
Matthew I love weather; Sun for days Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3,573 Where the Sun finally sets	I have climbed to first place on the ladder and I'm really surprised by the lack of Garchomp, Blaziken, and Manaphy on teams. The last most option being seeing rarely, but the former two are almost non-existent. Why is that happen? __________________ ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻ What bitgamer tehconnection popcorn last.fm

Jan 25th, 2012, 12:59:33 AM	#20
Zephyr Life Stream Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,325 Detroit, Michigan	I think it's still just too early and people just haven't caught on to using broken shit right away yet. Heh. __________________ Your values is a disarrayed, prioritizing horribly Unhappy with the riches cause your piss poor morally Ignoring all prior advice and fore warning, and mighty full of ourselves all of a sudden aren't we?

Jan 25th, 2012, 1:06:06 AM	#21
KnightoftheWind Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,062 Way past cool	I'm the only person I've seen that uses Garchomp. It's just as ridiculous as it was in standard OU, except no-one prepares for it so it's even more potent at pissing people off. __________________ To live a life of power, you must have faith that what you believe is right, even if others tell you you're wrong. The first thing you must do to live a life of power is to find courage. You must be ready to reach beyond the boundaries of Time itself. And to do that, all you need is the will to take that first step....

Jan 25th, 2012, 5:23:58 PM	#23
Hawkstar Are you hanging by a thread or swinging from the rope? Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 627 Western Pennsylvania	I've seen Garchomp once so far, besides my own, and it haxed me out of 20 points. Not a good way to start off. Even so, I still think that only Sand Veil itself should be banned, and Snow Cloak too, under the Evasion Clause. Moody had a 1/7 chance of raising Evasion, and the items did it automatically. However, Tyranitar and Hippowdon combined are on about 20% of teams, giving a statistical chance of Sand Veil being active of 1/5, and I'd be willing to bet that the usage of Tyranitar inceases as you get higher on the ladder. It's not just Garchomp either, as Gliscor is also a competent Sand Veil user, as well as Mamoswine and Frosslass in hail. Garchomp will still be top-tier without Sand Veil, but without its 20% chance to avoid a surefire KO, I think it will be far more manageable, especially with Latios beating pretty much all non-Scarf sets and Ferrothorn around Skarmory and Ferrothorn doing a good job of walling the Scarf set. __________________ Art thread! [22:11] Helias: FUCK YOU HAWKSTAR THAT'S NOT MY NAME

Jan 25th, 2012, 5:29:26 PM	#24
ala a Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,967 mercinary	Yeah I totally agree with Hawkstar. I've actually lost matches due to missing against Mamowine/Frosslass in ou which is ridiculous. It's been a long time since playing against Rough Skin chomp last year but I can't remember it being nearly as broken. Obviously it'll be one of the very best pokemon, hell even Garchomp with cute charm or w/e would be top tier, but it won't rely on misses to sweep, just skilful play.

Jan 25th, 2012, 6:30:42 PM	#25
idiotfrommars schemes and plots are the same thing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,022 Michigan	I've been using Sub Sword Dance Chomp for a few matches and that thing is ridiculous. It's Sand Veil contributed to at least 4 easy wins over about 15 matches in addition to stealing another two at the end that I would have lost. Also with all the Sand around due to a lot of people testing out Excadrill it doesn't even have much competition with regards to the weather war. __________________