Creative (and good) Movesets Mk II (READ THE OP FIRST)

[Gary2346]

Originally Posted by Fat alkinesthetase

this is the problem with running EV spreads that are spread out across a lot of stats: unless you're aiming for something specific, they are usually a waste of EVs. (they remain a waste of EVs even if you're aiming for something specific, but at least you get something out of it if you waste EVs in that way. remember that EVs always reward concentration) you'll have to be more specific about what exactly you want to 2hko, or what you do not want to be 2hkod by. for example to guarantee the 2hko on 252/0 poison heal gliscor or landorus with fire blast, you actually don't need ANY special attack investment.

I mean, it's not exactly JUST to 2HKO things, it's also used to KO anything that's weakened as well that maybe non SpA+ Heatran couldn't take out without leaving 5% HP or something. It's hard to pinpoint exactly what it can KO, but it all depends on what I'm going up against.

Do you have any reccommendations on a EV spread for this hybrid Heatran? Like I said, I still want a mix of both.

[alkinesthetase]

I mean, it's not exactly JUST to 2HKO things, it's also used to KO anything that's weakened as well that maybe non SpA+ Heatran couldn't take out without leaving 5% HP or something. It's hard to pinpoint exactly what it can KO, but it all depends on what I'm going up against.

to be blunt about it, "KO weakened things" means nothing. the problem with this mindset is that you don't know what you can 2hko so you cannot count on heatran to perform when you need it to. you think that "maybe" it can get the 2hko because you did put maybe a bit more satk, but when the game is hinging on it you need to know whether it's time to switch out or time to stay in. meanwhile your bulk has suffered because you changed natures and moved EVs away and so right when you thought heatran could take that aura sphere, oh nope guess it couldn't.

the ultimate point i am trying to make is that haphazard distributions of EVs make all stats, and the mon as a whole, suffer. like sun tzu said, "if he sends reinforcements everywhere, he will be everywhere weak (sic, but translations vary)". all spreads require concrete reasoning and justification or otherwise it's easy to find something superior. in your case the obviously superior spread is 248 hp / 252 sdef /8 speed calm. the 2hkos you noted are earned just as easily but because heatran's typing lends best to special resistances, your survivability will go way up. you want it to be faster, you say? well how much? you want more physical bulk? well how much? more power? well how much?

i am aware that i sound like a broken record but this is where the question has to begin: is the heatran supposed to be offensive or defensive? it can't be both when you want to decide where the EVs belong. something must take priority in where the EVs are placed. what does your team use heatran to counter? what does it use heatran to check? what do you need to outspeed, what do you need to survive, what do you need to kill? if you can't answer my questions, i can't answer yours, and the best spread will still be pure sdef heatran.

[Gary2346]

Originally Posted by Fat alkinesthetase

to be blunt about it, "KO weakened things" means nothing. the problem with this mindset is that you don't know what you can 2hko so you cannot count on heatran to perform when you need it to. you think that "maybe" it can get the 2hko because you did put maybe a bit more satk, but when the game is hinging on it you need to know whether it's time to switch out or time to stay in. meanwhile your bulk has suffered because you changed natures and moved EVs away and so right when you thought heatran could take that aura sphere, oh nope guess it couldn't.

the ultimate point i am trying to make is that haphazard distributions of EVs make all stats, and the mon as a whole, suffer. like sun tzu said, "if he sends reinforcements everywhere, he will be everywhere weak (sic, but translations vary)". all spreads require concrete reasoning and justification or otherwise it's easy to find something superior. in your case the obviously superior spread is 248 hp / 252 sdef /8 speed calm. the 2hkos you noted are earned just as easily but because heatran's typing lends best to special resistances, your survivability will go way up. you want it to be faster, you say? well how much? you want more physical bulk? well how much? more power? well how much?

i am aware that i sound like a broken record but this is where the question has to begin: is the heatran supposed to be offensive or defensive? it can't be both when you want to decide where the EVs belong. something must take priority in where the EVs are placed. what does your team use heatran to counter? what does it use heatran to check? what do you need to outspeed, what do you need to survive, what do you need to kill? if you can't answer my questions, i can't answer yours, and the best spread will still be pure sdef heatran.

You don't sound like a broken record at all, I can easily tell how well educated you are in EVs, and it's nice to get advice from someone who knows exactly what they are talking about.

With that in mind and just getting back from pulling off a victory using a full SpD Heatran, the only EV spread I can think of that I would prefer is a spread that can speed crawl against other SpD Heatran, so I can revenge kill them without having to worry about the speed tie. That's it, that's the only thing I want. So what do you recommend? Slashing some EVs off of HP maybe?

By the way, would you mind taking a look at my RMT? You are very wise in the EV/Move set department, so I want your input on my team. Link is in my signature. It doesn't have to be a full on rate, just some pointers.

Thanks!

[alkinesthetase]

yeah standard sdef heatran is usually around 8 speed so creeping to 12 or 16 is probably enough already. the normal place to take off EVs for speed creep is indeed HP because almost nobody cares about 1 point of HP (except when it's the last point, but that's what focus sashes are for lol). i don't really know how heatran ended up creeping to 8 speed in the first place to be completely honest. usually the reason is that when a mon has max HP investment it ends up taking full damage from SR (ie its HP is divis by 8), so you just throw an extra point in speed to drop sr damage by one point (and thereby switch into SR 8 times instead of dying on the 8th) but heatran's max hp is 386 which is not divisible by 8... whatever, most heatran are around 8 speed right now unless they're heavily invested offensive variants in which case the best you can do is tie them anyway.

and i don't rate teams cause i suck at it lol, this stuff is easy for me because it's all theoretical but rating teams is a whole different story since it's all rooted in ladder play (which i have so little time to do right now... right as i got the potato too T_T)

ANYWAY. back to the thread.

[Lavos Spawn]

Mamoswine @ Leftovers
Trait: Snow Cloak
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Protect
- Icicle Crash / Icicle Spear

Who says Snow Cloak isn't as OP as Sand Veil? Under Hail, this thing is an absolute monster, and the best part about it is that Toxic absolutely wrecks all the bulky waters that love to switch into regular Mamoswine. Politoeds will cower in fear of this mighty boss. Protect + Sub is great for hax and scouting alike, and Icicle Crash provides a solid STAB option when you need it. Icicle Spear is optional, I prefer the trollish flinch chance of Crash but a multi-hit attack can come in handy sometimes. Give it a shot, Hail is very anti-meta right now.

[UltiMario]

The sheer element of surprise is the only set keeping that set afloat.

Losing to every steel in the metagame isn't the best set to run, honestly.

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat UltiMario

The sheer element of surprise is the only set keeping that set afloat.

Losing to every steel in the metagame isn't the best set to run, honestly.

Right, except half don't want to switch into you fearing EQ (e.g. Jirachi) and the other half can be haxed/PP stalled out of their attacking move that hurts you. Forretress only has 8 Gyro Balls, you know. Power Whip is 16 PP and has accuracy of 65 under Hail. You can even flinch Skarmory to death lol. Even Genesect gets scouted with Protect and has to take Hail damage, plus you know what it's going to do next turn.

Honestly I feel that if you give this set a bit more thought, instead of immediately dismissing it because it's weak to Steels, you'll find it really does a good job of annoying extremely common Pokemon in the current metagame. I used this set early BW2 and it did serious work all over Rain's face. Politoed thought it could switch in safely. Oh, how wrong it was.

Element of surprise isn't all that keeps it afloat, as you say. Toxic stall sets have always worked and always will work to some degree. You're right that surprise helps it out, though. Who expects a SubToxic Mamoswine? Nobody. And that's the point.

[Gary2346]

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

Mamoswine @ Leftovers
Trait: Snow Cloak
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Protect
- Icicle Crash / Icicle Spear

Who says Snow Cloak isn't as OP as Sand Veil? Under Hail, this thing is an absolute monster, and the best part about it is that Toxic absolutely wrecks all the bulky waters that love to switch into regular Mamoswine. Politoeds will cower in fear of this mighty boss. Protect + Sub is great for hax and scouting alike, and Icicle Crash provides a solid STAB option when you need it. Icicle Spear is optional, I prefer the trollish flinch chance of Crash but a multi-hit attack can come in handy sometimes. Give it a shot, Hail is very anti-meta right now.

Holllyyyy crap. Dude I just made a random Hail team out of the blue just to test this monster, and oh my god does this thing annoy the hell outta people. I have never had one round using this where someone doesn't forfeit. I was able to slowly stall out a couple of Ferrothrons and actually KO a few quite easily since Icicle Crash hits it nuetral. This set is very useful, and if Steels happen to be a problem, Earthquake can be used over Toxic if you already have another team member who maybe carries Toxic.

Nice move set! Hope to not see it used too often though, it's really frustrating!

[Antihaxxer]

Mamoswine without Earthquake makes me feel very sick

[zekrom lord]

firstly i love the cobalion idea thanks, i may use it if its ok.
now for my idea
an set up ferrothorn
item: leftovers/macho brace
nature: brave
iv's: 0 speed
ev's: 252 special defence/HP 252attack 4 HP/special defence
moves: curse, gyro ball, leach seed/ buldoze, power whip/ sead bomb
this set is simalar to the choice band set only has some versility and a surprise factor. Leach seed is for recovery and to cause switches, buldoze is for coverage. power whip/ sead bomb is the accuracy power debate.
these calculations are from the choice band set

• Gyro Ball (-1) vs. 0/0 Salamence: 77.9% - 91.8%
• Gyro Ball vs. 252/184+ Gliscor: 58.8% - 69.5%
• Power Whip vs. 252/0 Conkeldurr: 65.2% - 76.8%
• Power Whip vs. 192/64 Reuniclus: 73.6% - 86.8%
• Power Whip vs. 252/252+ Reuniclus: 52.6% - 62.3%
• Power Whip vs. 252/252+ Suicune: 83.7% - 98.5%
• Power Whip vs. 252/252+ Hippowdon: 79% - 93.3%
• Bulldoze vs. 4/0 Heatran: 69.1% - 81.5%
• Bulldoze vs. 40/0 Magnezone: 70.1% - 83.8%

all this set realy needs is partners (dugtrio) that can remove its counters eg fire types

[Superpowerdude]

despite how rare it is curse ferro is actaully used by some people and it is quite effective with proper team support.

Edit: That Mamoswine set looks great and to the people saying it needs Earthqauke not having Earthqauke is what makes that set good letting it hax the shit out of opponents with Substitute Toxic Protect. Although some steels do beat it regardless e.g Bronzong Heatran. This Mamoswine's job is not to beat steels but rather stall out your opponent

[Electrolyte]

yeah, and what common Toxic staller can beat steels other than Gliscor? (who can even beat Skarmory)

For Zekrom Lord's set, I question Ferrothorn's ability to actually set up. I'm sure not everybody plays this way, but at least most people try to Taunt or kill Ferrothorn ASAP. Unboosted, it's attacks don't do much to anything that walls it (Forretress, Skarm) and it's easy set up bait b/c of poor coverage and severe lack of speed. Also, that loss of investment in SpA mean that it'll be falling pretty easily to Fire even inside Rain- and of course, you said Dugtrio could be a good partner, but what about pokemon like Lati@s or Tornadus?

The set seems great once you set up, but it really needs a lot of team support. Oh, and no macho brace.

[Sork]

Well, I'm not sure if somebody has already suggested this, but, I thought about this idea, and then started playtesting it, and it's been working out greatly for me. Allow me to present, healing wish Latias.



Latias @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 152 HP / 176 SAtk / 180 Spd
Modest Nature
- Healing Wish
- Draco Meteor
- Roost
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Surf

Latias is often regarded as the less threatening of the Lati's, but this set sure does make use of one thing that Latios doesn't have, Healing Wish. Now, how the set works is you use Latias as a tank, taking resisted hits and firing off large draco meteors. After a little bit, Latias is probably at either -2 or -4, or it has a very low HP stat that it's not even worth saving. What you can do is you can use healing wish, and you can then bring in a pokemon that can deal with the threat at hand, and they have full health to boot! This works greatly wish Sash leads, because if their sash hasn't been broken yet, then you can use healing wish, and they're ready for whatever threat comes after them. The ev's are for outspeeding neutral base 100's, and being able to do good damage and give latias a life orb number HP. Draco is standard, roost for the recovery for when you want to keep Latias alive, and your choice of HP Fire or Surf, depending on if your team needs to be able to take on Heatran or other steels better. Another good thing about healing wish is if you are up against a tyranitar, instead of just taking a pursuit and having draco do next to nothing, you can use healing wish and bring in an appropriate threat at full HP.

[HabibsHotDogs]

Haxorus @ Dragon Gem
Trait: Moldbreaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake/Super Power

Ok, this set is a double dance Haxorus, a very standard set.. except for the item.. A lot of people wonder why the hell dragon gem, a dragon gem makes some very big differences to draco plate, and life orb on haxorus is a big no-no with weather + priority attacks / Scarf attacks being able to otherwise threaten it's sweep.

Heres some calcs, all assume outrage and that the dragon gem is intact at the time it is used.

+1 Outrage vs 252/184+ Gliscor 96.89% - 114.14% (81.25% OHKO)
+1 Outrage vs 252/252+ Reuniclus Guaranteed ohko (108% Min damage)
+2 Outrage vs 252/252+ Donphan Guaranteed ohko (117% Min damage)
+2 Outrage vs 252/252+ Hippodown Guaranteed ohko (107% Min damage)
+2 Outrage vs 248/0 Scizor Guaranteed ohko (102% Min damage)
+1 Outrage vs 248/0 Scizor 77.26% - 90.96% (Sure ohko after 2 SR)
+1 Outrage vs 252/252+ Slowbro Guaranteed ohko after SR (90% min damage)

Theres countless more targets that haxorus JUST manages to ko... but I cba listing them all. Also steels are not necessarily counters for this Haxorus, for example a Ferrothorn or Forretress that has taken negligible damage earlier falls into ko range... Even the "Haxorus counter" Skarmory can 'potentially' be beaten with prediction.. Incase you were wondering, here's the big one:

+2 Outrage vs 252/252+ Skarmory 60.18% - 70.96% (Chance to 2hko if it has taken prior damage, factoring in a 33% power drop second round)

+2 Outrage vs 252/0 Skarmory 79.04% - 93.11% (Chance to ohko after SR)


Really, this Haxorus is a pretty good bait for some of its best checks, but obviously hates status (which people use with caution considering the popularity of lum berry set up)

[the flying afro]

Latias @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 152 HP / 176 SAtk / 180 Spd
Modest Nature
- Healing Wish
- Draco Meteor
- Roost
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Surf

This sets idea is pretty well thought of and my work in practice but i believe it would be better running substitute. with a sub up you can switch out with no damage and still get get to keep your latias

[Sork]

Well, the thing is, Latias really has no place for substitute on that set. You need roost so you can keep it for longer term, and healing wish is only there for when roost isn't going to be able to save it (They are doing more than you can roost up is when I usually go for it), so substitute isn't really all that great of an option. With the life orb and substitute, you are already down 35%, plus if they have rocks up, that's 47% off of your whole health, and if sand or hail is up, one substitute and attack is already over 50% health gone, so it's not really all that great of an option. Usually, this latias is just supposed to come in, hit something hard with a draco, then usually switch out, do damage to something else, then healing wish off to an appropriate check.

[Jimbon]

Ah yes.


Tornadus-T (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 88 Atk / 252 SAtk / 168 Spe
Naive Nature (+Spe, -SDef)
- Air Slash
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Focus Blast
- Heat Wave
- U-Turn

Introducing Scarf Tornadus-T, an incredibly underrated scarfer. This set aims to remove some of the increasingly common Pokemon in the metagame right now. This includes Genesect, Venusaur, Dragonite, Stoutland, Scarf Salamence, +2 Bulky Volcarona and even Scarf Garchomp. I've tested this set extensively and I have had very good success with it. It works especially well on weatherless, being able to overcome the problem that weatherless offense often has -- how to beat Sun and the Chlorophyll abusers. It's a fantastic scouter, and the extra speed it has over other common scarfers is the most notable thing. The speed investment puts you at 528, beating every other common scarfer in OU, while substituting some into Attack to add a little more power to U-Turn, which is always appreciated on offensive teams. Naive Nature is preferred over Hasty to take priority a little better, which most priority is physical, which helps with the extra bulk Tornadus-T has over the other Therians.

try it

[bubbly]

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

Right, except half don't want to switch into you fearing EQ (e.g. Jirachi) and the other half can be haxed/PP stalled out of their attacking move that hurts you. Forretress only has 8 Gyro Balls, you know. Power Whip is 16 PP and has accuracy of 65 under Hail. You can even flinch Skarmory to death lol. Even Genesect gets scouted with Protect and has to take Hail damage, plus you know what it's going to do next turn.

Honestly I feel that if you give this set a bit more thought, instead of immediately dismissing it because it's weak to Steels, you'll find it really does a good job of annoying extremely common Pokemon in the current metagame. I used this set early BW2 and it did serious work all over Rain's face. Politoed thought it could switch in safely. Oh, how wrong it was.

Element of surprise isn't all that keeps it afloat, as you say. Toxic stall sets have always worked and always will work to some degree. You're right that surprise helps it out, though. Who expects a SubToxic Mamoswine? Nobody. And that's the point.

Why use this over SubRoost Kyurem? Sure, it has no SR weakness, and the surprise factor. On the other hand, Kyurem sets up a lot more easily (on practically every Water / Grass / Electric / Ground type), has reliable health recovery, 101 HP Subs, a more powerful attack in STAB Blizzard with Earth Power to hit the relevant Steels, and Pressure to stall things out much more easily than that. It might have a niche use but I really don't see it tbh.

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat bubbly

Why use this over SubRoost Kyurem? Sure, it has no SR weakness, and the surprise factor. On the other hand, Kyurem sets up a lot more easily (on practically every Water / Grass / Electric / Ground type), has reliable health recovery, 101 HP Subs, a more powerful attack in STAB Blizzard with Earth Power to hit the relevant Steels, and Pressure to stall things out much more easily than that. It might have a niche use but I really don't see it tbh.

Easy, Kyurem doesn't get Snow Cloak and Sub Kyurem is an extremely common set whereas Sub Mamoswine is almost never seen. Kyurem is a better Pokemon overall, but for this particular set it helps to have surprise on your side, as well as a nice 20% chance for the opponent to miss their attacks. This set is also made for stalling purposes so Blizzard won't really cut it considering it only has 8 PP. I suppose you could try the same idea of this set with Kyurem, but I think Mamoswine does this specific job a bit better.

[Scarfwynaut]

On the note of macho brace ferrothorn, I don't think Ferrothorn needs to further lower its speed. Looking at the speed tiers (http://www.smogon.com/bw/articles/ouspeed_tiers) everything faster than Gliscor's speed tier gets hit with a max power Gyroball. Adding machobrace only changes that to about Conkeldurr's speed tier. The only pokemon I could ever see being really harmed by macho brace that aren't already are: Scrafty, Xatu, Roserade, Venusuar out of the sun, Toxicroak, Machamp, Blissey and Chansey, and Conkeldurr. None of these are top 20 pokemon, and half of these are pokemon you could beat normally, and the other half you have no business staying in on.

[Boondocker]

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

Mamoswine @ Leftovers
Trait: Snow Cloak
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Protect
- Icicle Crash / Icicle Spear

There is no excuse for not having Stab Eq on this set. Mamoswine gets amazing coverage with Ground+Ice (probably the best 2 attack combo in the game not involving Dragon), and has no business stalling when it can just kill things. Instead of being next to uncounterable, Mamoswine now gets walled by Jirachi, Scizor, Genesect, and more. I'd replace Protect with Eq, and Toxic with Ice Shard. Toxic hits just about nothing that counters Mamoswine anyway.

Originally Posted by Fat Jimbon

Ah yes.


Tornadus-T (M) @ Choice Scarf
- Air Slash
try it

Ewwwwwwwwwwwwww. At least slash Hurricane in there, its 70% accurate out of rain, and you have no problem using the 70% unstabed Focus Blast.

Originally Posted by Fat HabibsHotDogs

Haxorus @ Dragon Gem

The more time that goes on, the more i realize how good Gems truely are.

[Vinceanity51]

I do like the Tornadus set, but I almost feel like a Modest nature might be enough. With the choice scarf and its high natural speed, you might as well have more attacking power.

Now for my set:

Scyther (M) @ Focus Sash
Trait: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Jolly
- X-Scissor
- Reversal
- Night Slash
- Swords Dance

Use Swords Dance because you are already faster than your opponent. Take a big hit. Use either STAB Swarm Swords Danced X-Scissor or Reversal to decimate your opponent. Night Slash is good filler with the whole Fighting and Dark combo.

Why add calculations when you can try it first hand?

[BlackLight]

Originally Posted by Fat Vinceanity51

I do like the Tornadus set, but I almost feel like a Modest nature might be enough. With the choice scarf and its high natural speed, you might as well have more attacking power.

Now for my set:

Scyther (M) @ Focus Sash
Trait: Swarm
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Jolly
- X-Scissor
- Reversal
- Night Slash
- Swords Dance

Use Swords Dance because you are already faster than your opponent. Take a big hit. Use either STAB Swarm Swords Danced X-Scissor or Reversal to decimate your opponent. Night Slash is good filler with the whole Fighting and Dark combo.

Why add calculations when you can try it first hand?

There's so much wrong with this set. If you want this to work, you need to do the following,
-kill anything that could run scarf, there are no scarfers in OU that can't outspeed an unboosted 105.
-eliminate any priority users, if they poke you after you set up, you die.
-remove Stealth Rocks, the easiest hazard in the game to keep on the field.
-get rid of Sandstorm or Hail effects, or Focus Sash is useless.
-give Scyther a free switch (read: sack someone, nobody gives out free turns). Otherwise, Scyther can't set up.
-have the opponent attack Scyther rather than status it, ending any chance of a sweep.
-OHKO everything. If you can't do so, you die.
If any of these conditions are not met, Scyther will lose. With the amount of team support necessary for this to work, nearly anything that could run a sweeping set would be better off than this. Sure it can get some KOs on those who don't know whats going on, but any decent player will be able to beat this, because they will more likely than not will be able to do one of the above things and stop the sweep before it even begins.
Please don't use this, ever.

[Lavos Spawn]

Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock

Definitely my favorite Stealth Rocks setter in the game, for one reason: surprise factor. Terrakion is not often led with, regardless of the set it's running, so that can catch your opponent off-guard assuming you'll lead with Genesect or some other thing that was seen in team preview. Bust out Terrakion, and either set up rocks, Taunt, or attack, depending on the lead. If they lead Genesect, I set up rocks. If it's Garchomp, I Taunt if I expect SR Chomp, or CC if I don't. You get the idea, it's fairly simple once you play around with it a bit. The real draw to this set is twofold; a) you can set up rocks with a 99% guarantee because of Focus Sash, and b) Taunt beats slower Pokemon trying to set up hazards or status you. It works like a charm against Deoxys-D, Skarmory, etc. Even unboosted, the combination of Stone Edge and Close Combat can scare about half the metagame out, allowing you to get up your rocks even easier. It's an excellently well-rounded set. I urge anybody who needs a good suicide lead with surprise value to give this monster a try.

[alexwolf]

Yeah Lavos is right, lead Terrakion is boss. Swords Dance should be slashed with Taunt, as Terrakion can attempt a mini sweep in the early game, and get past common checls, such as Tentacruel. Not to mention that Terrakion can also function besides the lead slot, which is something most dedicated leads cannot do.