Highway to Hell

[dragonuser]

Originally Posted by Fat Razza

I dont see how chansey can be beaten, the standard softboiled/seismic toss/toxic/filler takes on every single one of your pokemon and wins. If its fourth move is heal bell (pretty common on rain stall) then its most likely a 6-0. A competent player ( with a competent team) with chansey beats this team every time without hax. I understand there is an element of matchup in BW but when one small move change (refresh > substitute) turns an auto lose into set up bait its a just sloppy teambuilding IMO.

In BW1, it is near impossible to cover every single pokemon with a hard counter. So I decided to cover chansey through playing rather than a single pokemon. Toxic Spikes on Forretress really wear down Chansey very fast, but it faces one main problem against rain stall (where chansey is most likely found), Tentacruel. Thus I chose my Heatran set which can lure and heavily damage Tentacruel to the point it will either die to hazards next switch, or will just die to Heatran. Then I can lay Tspikes and kill chansey that way. Of course I will test your idea of Refresh, but I will be vary wary of losing Substitute on Latias, as it loses a lot of its potential vs faster teams then. I just wanted to say that on paper Chansey looks very tough, but in the game it is easier to negotiate around. Nevertheless, thanks for your comments and I will think about refresh and see if it is worth the loss of substitute.

[DestinyUnknown]

Why would anybody using Rain Stall switch Tentacruel on Heatran when they have Chansey to deal with it and not having to worry about if Heatran is using Earth Power / random Lava Plume burns? I mean I guess Heatran lures Tentacruel well, just not when Tentacruel is paired with Chansey. I think that a much more reliable way of taking down Chansey would be using Toxic on Heatran, as this way Heatran can trap Chansey with Magma Storm and once Chansey is trapped, Heatran toxics Chansey, effectively removing it. I would say the best option would be removing SolarBeam on Heatran, but since Sunny Day loses a lot of utility without SolarBeam, you could simply use Hidden Power Grass over it. In case I wasnt clear enough, I suggest a Magma Storm / Earth Power /Toxic / Hidden Power Grass set.

If you are worried about not being able to win the weather war reliably after making this change (which I don't think you should since Latias /Dugtrio are pretty good on beating other weather teams) you could try using Sunny Day and SolarBeam instead of WoW and Roar on Ninetales, as that allows Ninetales to beat Politoed. Running a more offensive spread would be advised in that case.

[dragonuser]

Originally Posted by Fat DestinyUnknown

Why would anybody using Rain Stall switch Tentacruel on Heatran when they have Chansey to deal with it and not having to worry about if Heatran is using Earth Power / random Lava Plume burns? I mean I guess Heatran lures Tentacruel well, just not when Tentacruel is paired with Chansey. I think that a much more reliable way of taking down Chansey would be using Toxic on Heatran, as this way Heatran can trap Chansey with Magma Storm and once Chansey is trapped, Heatran toxics Chansey, effectively removing it. I would say the best option would be removing SolarBeam on Heatran, but since Sunny Day loses a lot of utility without SolarBeam, you could simply use Hidden Power Grass over it. In case I wasnt clear enough, I suggest a Magma Storm / Earth Power /Toxic / Hidden Power Grass set.

If you are worried about not being able to win the weather war reliably after making this change (which I don't think you should since Latias /Dugtrio are pretty good on beating other weather teams) you could try using Sunny Day and SolarBeam instead of WoW and Roar on Ninetales, as that allows Ninetales to beat Politoed. Running a more offensive spread would be advised in that case.

With hazards down etc, you would be surprised, but nevertheless it was mainly just an example. Really by putting pressure on tentacruel I can break stall. I would also be opposed to changing the Heatran set, as it really is my team's defining set, but thanks for the suggestion anyways!

EDIT: still testing idea of refresh

[Magma]

Hey Dragonuser, very solid sun team you have here. Congratulations on all of the success you've had with it. However, I see a few things that can make it even better.

First off, I agree with everything Razza mentioned in his rate. Any half-way decent team with Chansey/Blissey completely walls you. Setting up Toxic Spikes is an unreliable way of breaking Pink Blobs, since all teams with Chansey are semi-stall/balanced teams and most likely have a spinner/poison-type to deal with the poisonous hazards.

With all that said, I second Razza's Refresh > Substitute on Latias recommendation. However, it does open Latias up to Pursuits and keeps it from breaking Volt-Turn chains. So if you don't want to go that route, another option is Taunt > Hidden Power Ice on Heatran. Taunt keeps Blissey from healing and allows Heatran to slowly wear it down with Sun boosted Magma Storms (you can also add a few more EVs into HP to tank Seismic Tosses.) Hidden Power Ice is expendable anyway, since it has very little effectiveness on Heatrans that aren't holding an Air Balloon. Without the pseudo ground immunity that Air Balloon provides, Heatran can no longer tank a hit from DD Dragons and is OHKO'd by Earthquake before it can even use HP Ice. (If you decide to use Refresh on Latias, then keep HP Ice on Heatran and give it an Air Balloon > Leftovers.)

Speaking of DD Dragons, Dragonite/Salamence also seem to be a bit of a problem; they get easy switch-ins on Dugtrio and can sweep after just 1 Dragon Dance. To remedy this, I'm going to recommend Mixed Growth Venusaur with HP Ice in the 3rd moveslot > Special Growth Venusaur (you can play around with the EVs.) Yeah, the loss of the Special set's pure power hurts, but the ability to revenge kill Dragons makes the trade-off well worth it. (If you give Latias Refresh and Heatran an Air Balloon, I would leave Venusaur as it is, with maybe a few more EVs in SpAtk.)

HP Ice Venusaur also helps against Gliscor and Landorus, allowing Forretress to use Gyro Ball > Hidden Power Ice so it can hit Terrakion and Mamoswine. Hmm, now that I think about it, you can actually drop Forretress completely. I know that sounds crazy, but Forretress just doesn't mesh very well with the offensive nature of this team. Yeah, it supports the team by spinning away hazards (your team isn't crippled by Stealth Rock anyway), but the team doesn't fully support Forretress back by dealing with the handful of things that can set up on it. Bulky stall breakers such as Reuniclus, Conkeldurr, and opposing Latias easily use Forretress as a set-up fodder and all three look like they can sweep your entire team with just one boost under their belt.

To patch up this last hole, I'm going to recommend a more offensive replacement over Forretress, something that can switch-in to these threats and threaten them right off the bat. When you decide to make this a BW2 team, Scarf Genesect > Forretress will work perfectly, but until then, I think Sub Disable Gengar > Forretress will be fine. Sub Disable Gengar beats all of the aforementioned threats since they usually only have one attack that can hit Gengar. Once that attack is Disabled, Gengar can just wear them down with Shadow Ball. Sunny conditions make this set even more annoying than it already is by keeping Sandstorm/Hail from negating Gengar's Leftovers.

I know that's a lot of take in, but I hope it was helpful. Good luck with the team. Can't wait to see the BW2 version.

[Peache]

I really like this team. The way in which you are using Heatran is extremely appealing as I've always struggled to fit him into some of my sun / counter sun teams. The set chosen for him seems to shore up a lot of the weaknesses I feel he has. Overall, though, a solid set-up you have!