np: NU Stage 6 - Magic Black Woman

[Sweet Jesus]

Cool ideas right here, I'm getting bored of my team lately. I'll probably try out that vigoroth soon.

I'm pretty disapointed to see barely no one uses gothitelle on the ladder when it's such an incredible mon. I'll have to test the sub CM set, looks fantastic and pretty easy to pair with good stuff that fears fighting types. Ewil makes a point about gurdurr too: Use that thing it rocks ! Another thing that seems to have been forgotten is misdreavus (thanks to sir golurk). Missy still has crazy walling capacities people shouldn't forget and counters many of the metagames biggest threats.

In general, the metagame is pretty fun these days, although I would like stall to be a bit more present. Also, amoonguss being in 2 teams out of 3 kind of pisses me off.

[Agent Dell]

I find it rather odd and unusual to say that Gothitelle is uncommon when it has affected the usage of Amoonguss, Gurdurr, Garbodor, and other things that are shut down by this particular Pokemon.

[Zebraiken*]

Originally Posted by Fat Agent Dell

I find it rather odd and unusual to say that Gothitelle is uncommon when it has affected the usage of Amoonguss, Gurdurr, Garbodor, and other things that are shut down by this particular Pokemon.

To be fair, though, even with my intense amount of laddering the last few days, I have seen a peculiarly low amount of Gothitelle. Is it because people are actually preparing for it now so it's less effective (I've seen more than a few Shed Shell Amoonguss + Skuntank) or is it just old news? I used to run Gothitelle on my main team before I realized that, despite it being able to trap Amoonguss + Alomomola, it struggled with everything else outside of preying on weak walls and stuff like Gurdurr. I know reachzero was asking around in #rarelyused the other day if anyone had used Gothitelle + Normal spam - has anyone tried that to any degree of success? I'll probably build a team around it later to test it out, but I'm just curious if anyone else has done so.

[FLCL]

I'm sure a Normal spam team could work as long as you pair Gothitelle up with Skuntank in order to trap the number one Normal-type counter—Misdreavus. It would look very similar to this team. What troubles me is that Regirock and Golem both have a chance to beat Gothitelle, either due to immense bulk or Sucker Punch. They are also commonly paired up with Alomomola or Amoonguss, both of which are common counters to Normal-types. Choice Gothitelle will struggle to trap multiple walls. Of course, Pokemon such as Braviary and Tauros have no problem breaking down walls themselves, but Normal spam isn't something I'm going to use seriously in the tier unless someone can convince me.

Also, there isn't a Pokemon that can reliably lay down multiple hazards like Smeargle can in RU.

[Leman]

Originally Posted by Fat Zebraiken

To be fair, though, even with my intense amount of laddering the last few days, I have seen a peculiarly low amount of Gothitelle. Is it because people are actually preparing for it now so it's less effective (I've seen more than a few Shed Shell Amoonguss + Skuntank) or is it just old news? I used to run Gothitelle on my main team before I realized that, despite it being able to trap Amoonguss + Alomomola, it struggled with everything else outside of preying on weak walls and stuff like Gurdurr. I know reachzero was asking around in #rarelyused the other day if anyone had used Gothitelle + Normal spam - has anyone tried that to any degree of success? I'll probably build a team around it later to test it out, but I'm just curious if anyone else has done so.

Yes. Swellow just as dumb as its always been, even more so with Gothitelle trapping and beating everything that it loses to. (Psychic/Thunderbolt/HP Ground/Grass Knot).

[Full2Half]

Also, there isn't a Pokemon that can reliably lay down multiple hazards like Smeargle can in RU.

DWEBBLE!!!!! (or also omanyte, but meh) except no spore :(

I also havnt seen many gothitelle lately, but I plan on switching my exeggutor for it on my main team, just because trapping is so cool, and I havnt had my fix of her yet. I havn't gottan to testing goth much yet, but I actually havn't seen as many things preparing for it, but I guess I havnt laddered much in the last few days.

[EBeast]

I have to say that I'm extremely satisfied with the current metagame, it has seriously outdone my expectations. There are a lot of fun Pokemon and strategies to try out and nothing seems to be truly overpowering the metagame in any way. Hell after using more and more of the DD + Taunt Fraxure, I have to say I am really starting to like it and will probably start using it much more often in the future. Absol and Amoonguss are pretty much going to be saying their farewells, which I can't say that I'm particularly going to miss them, but at least we will possibly see more Vileplume again. Posting this midnight of September 1st I'm pretty intrigued in what the new stats could up next and what we could possibly gain from RU or lose out on. Hopefully they won't be poop like last stats, but here's to the best. Will edit this post with my thoughts after Antar brings out the big guns.

EDIT: Seems like Amoonguss might not be going to OU like we all thought it would. As for Absol is highly like that we will be losing it, though RU might give us Roselia, Rhydon, Scolipede, and/or Mandibuzz. Not really exciting too excited for any of them outside of Roselia because I've always hated Scolipede and Mandibuzz and I enjoyed my Golem actually being used.

[DTC]

So Gothitelle was recently banned in UU. That means it's also banned from here. What do you guys think of that? Unfortunately I never got to test Gothitelle that much, but I've always been able to play around it and beat it with something like Absol or Skuntank.

I have a feeling various NFE's will start to become more common. Gothitelle was a huge strain on various NFE's because many could easily be picked off by it. None of them could afford to use Shed Shell to escape Gothitelle either. Also the underdog challenge is sure to uncover viable NFE's. What NFE's do you guys think will start to see more usage? Vigoroth has been an underrated NFE for a long time. I remember playing a few battles against Zebraiken and whenever he used Vigoroth, it was a huge pain to defeat with its great bulk, lack of weaknesses, Taunt, and Slack Off.

[Ewil]

Saw now the Goth Ban ! Pretty happy since, even if in NU she's not too powerful, she limited the uses of some pokes like Garbodor, Gurrdur and other Psychic and Fighting type without counting that she can kills things with coverage moves and Specs or can set up a sub+CM on a wall like Alomomola or Amoongus ( and force them to run Shed Shell). Personally i like to use Cacturne to counter Gothitelle, it's easy coz the first move you do is Sucker Punch to scout the set, if is Scarf/Specs, you kill her, if the Sub+CM (and the Opponent is using one of them) you go for the encore since you're faster and start putting spikes on the field, after that, you can start killing Goth with Bullet Seed while she's encored or you can switch coz your opponent is not dumb and know the conseguences of an Encore from Cacturne lol

[erisia]

To be honest, the NU metagame didn't have a lot of time to adjust to Gothitelle, so I don't think its banning is going to make a huge amount of difference. Competing Psychic-types such as Musharna and Gardevoir will obviously become more popular again, though.

[Zebraiken*]

Just a quick message to say that I'm not going to be posting a new np: thread, mostly because there's no purpose since we haven't actually undergone a new suspect round yet. I might change the thread title later though~

Feel free to discuss the implications of Goth's ban. I'll post my thoughts in a bit.

[/B/utterfree]

Goth's ban really doesn't do much to NU, or even RU. Its main problems were that it made lethal attackers in UU more lethal, and its brokenness was taking out what the lethal attackers couldn't. If it was used correctly in NU and RU, I believe that the same effects would have occurred in those tiers with their lethal attackers, warranting the transition to UU and eventually BL if it hadn't been banned then.

[kniteowl]

Ah well

Time to test out Gothorita. it's got similar bulk as Gothitelle after an eviolite 60/70/85.

But I'll sorely miss that base 95 SpA. Now that it's a low base 75.

I guess choice scarf and spec maybe out of the question with her lower defences she won't survive many hits and won't hit as hard and her base 55 speed even after a scarf is too slow.

Eviolite makes a lot of sense just to take out the walls so speed isn't as relevant as bulk.

I wonder which set would be more appropriate? Sub calm mind or Mono attacker with clam mind and rest talk.

[Django]

I think the only use for Gothorita will be a somewhat more gimmicky set using Memento and other moves which will allow set up sweepers to get a free turn like Tickle. It certainly won't be anywhere near as effective as Gothitelle in removing walls, or beating Fighting types with ease, but it may still gain a niche.

[EBeast]

Originally Posted by Fat /B/utterfree

Goth's ban really doesn't do much to NU, or even RU. Its main problems were that it made lethal attackers in UU more lethal, and its brokenness was taking out what the lethal attackers couldn't. If it was used correctly in NU and RU, I believe that the same effects would have occurred in those tiers with their lethal attackers, warranting the transition to UU and eventually BL if it hadn't been banned then.

Well I don't what went on over in UU, but Gothitelle in RU was already being paired with Crawdaunt to remove its counters for it to beat down teams. In NU you could pair Gothitelle with Samurott, Klang, Pinsir, or Absol to remove a few of their counters as well, but the main difference was that the tiers managed to adapt. RU's "Ban it now!" stance when it was first released changed as the metagame adapted to the would have been an unanimous No Ban.

In NU Gothitelle was dealt by just not playing carelessly or adapting a few Pokemon that could such as Amoonguss and Alomomola using Shed Shell as they already had Regenerator and recovery options to make up for lack of Leftovers. Skuntank, a Pokemon already commonly used to deal with the dangerous Psychic- and Ghost-types such as Musharna and Haunter was even better in a tier with another dangerous Psychic-type. Just Skuntank's presence was dangerous for Gothitelle as it was somewhat limited to a revenge kill after one of its teammates as a double switch to Skuntank from an obvious bait such as Gurdurr could prove deadly. In general Gothitelle had some trouble against the very common offensive teams of NU, full of powerful Pokemon that prevent it from doing all too much throughout the match. This was mostly due to its slow speed as a major portion of the metagame could abuse. Since max Speed Jolly CB Emboar doesn't miss out on any key OHKO or 2HKO, even one of the slower Pokemon used in offense could outspeed a Specs Gothitelle. (Who needed Modest for some key kills)

From knowing this, I would have to say if Gothitelle was even made a suspect it would have either been an unanimous No Ban or close to it. From looking at this and last month's usage stats, it wouldn't look like Gothitelle would have been going anywhere either. I personally thought Gothitelle as just very good Pokemon that teams needed to prepare for. Some people say that it isn't healthy to the metagame, but what major threat is? Is having major threats such as Zangoose, Samurott, and Ludicolo necessarily help the metagame? No, but they certainly aren't "unhealthy" for it, or making it worse. That's pretty much how I felt about Gothi, sad to see it go but looking forward to a new meta with the upcoming tier shifts!

[FLCL]

I'm pretty sure Gothorita can still remove walls with a RestTalk + Calm Mind set. If it gets to +6, it will still break through walls. Gothorita's bulk is actually better than Gothitelle's if I recall correctly so it should have no problem setting up on walls and removing them.

[EBeast]

Originally Posted by Fat FLCL

I'm pretty sure Gothorita can still remove walls with a RestTalk + Calm Mind set. If it gets to +6, it will still break through walls. Gothorita's bulk is actually better than Gothitelle's if I recall correctly so it should have no problem setting up on walls and removing them.

True, I wouldn't be surprised to see a few teams with Gothorita, but it probably won't be nearly as used as Gothitelle was. Maybe this could change if we Research Group it! along with Mawile If this works well in practice as it sounds in theory, we won't be removing our Shed Shells from Amoonguss or Alomomola just yet!

[Sweet Jesus]

research group gothoria looks cool, but we just did gothitelle. I think the underdog challenge is revealing some pretty cool stuff that could go into the next research week instead (but gothorita is underdog, so I guess people could test it there).
Not sure gothorita can really take gothitelle's place. it's stats aren't really good enough to run anything but eviolite which ruins many sets (choice and sub CM) leaving only rest talk and simple bulky attacker (the latter seems really bad imo). Gothorita sure has an incredible ability, but it will be mainly niche and only used on teams who really want to get rid of weak walls and gurdurr.

[melvni]

Yeah Gothorita may not be the most powerful Pokemon in the game, and it certainly is no Gothitelle, but it shouldn't be offhandedly dismissed just because it doesn't look like much initially. FLCL's right, with Eviolite Gothorita is bulkier than Gothitelle. If we compare both of them running 252 HP, 252 HP / 252 Def+, 252 HP / 252 SpDef+, or mixed spreads:

Gothitelle
252 HP - 344 HP / 226 Def / 256 SpDef
252 HP / 252 Def+ - 344 HP / 317 Def / 256 SpDef
252 HP / 252 SpDef+ - 344 HP / 226 Def / 350 SpDef
Mixed (252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpDef - 344 HP / 276 Def / 297 SpDef

Gothorita@Eviolite
252 HP - 324 HP / 264 Def / 309 SpDef
252 HP / 252 Def+ - 324 HP / 393 Def / 309 SpDef
252 HP / 252 SpDef+ - 324 HP / 264 Def / 442 SpDef
Mixed (252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpDef+) - 324 HP / 339 Def / 363 SpDef

So, on a 252 HP Spread, Gothorita has 10% more physical bulk and 13.69% more special bulk, on a Physically Defensive Spread, Gothorita has 16.77% more physical bulk and 13.69% more special, on a Specially Defensive Spread Gothorita has 10% more physical bulk and 18.9% more special, and, on a mixed spread, Gothorita has 15.69% more physical bulk and 15.12% more special bulk.

...Alright so that isn't exactly as big a difference as I initially thought, but it's still noticeable, even if Leftovers dilutes that somewhat. Gothorita has the same Special Attack as Serperior, and people run offensive boosting sets on it. Gothorita has the same special bulk as Klang (and its Special Attack is only 5 less than Klang's Attack) and people run sub boosting sets on it, While Gothorita doesn't have Klang's great defensive typing or ability to boost its speed and attack simultaneously, it does have the ability to boost it's special defense, things that can't hurt it can't switch out to things that can, and its inability to get any faster means it doesn't have to worry about investing in Speed and can fully invest in bulk (though of course being able to boost its speed would be good if it had it).

When Eviolite is factored in, Gothorita actually has a higher BST than Gothitelle (515-520ish vs. 490, and about 40 more in stats that matter since Gothorita has 10 lower base attack). Plus, it will probably be aided in its trapping from people thinking that they don't need to worry about the Goth line now that Gothitelle is out of the tier and not running Shed Shell anymore.

Personally, at face value at least, Gothorita sounds like it might eventually end up joining the list of anti-meta threats, since I doubt many teams are going to bother preparing for it. I'm definitely going to add a disclaimer that this may just be because I spent pretty much the entire Gothitelle era (can we call something three and a half weeks long an era?) spamming Gothitelle+Gothorita teams to lets say varying degrees of success. However, with Gothitelle out of the meta, I don't think its anywhere near as gimmicky or useless as Diglett or Wynaut.

[Sweet Jesus]

Sure gothorita is bulkier, but my point was that it's much less versatile. Choice sets are too weak, too frail and too slow. Eviolite also has a big disadvantage next to leftovers: it drops substitute's effectivness enough for it to become a bad option. With lefties, gothitelle could reach + 6 CMs have a sub, full health and a coverage move along psychic when setting up on amoonguss and other weak special attackers. Such a set on gothorita will end up with far less hp and a lower speed. This leaves us with rest nearly being an obligation on a gothorita set. Sleep talk usualy comes along with rest leaving only 2 other moves. This is why I say the resttalk CM set is the only one remaining and imo it was gothitelle's weakest set with the scarf one. It sure has a niche, but when facing a team where it can't set up, it's as good as a rest talk glalie.

[melvni]

Originally Posted by Fat Sweet Jesus

Sure gothitelle is bulkier, but my point was that it's much less versatile. Choice sets are too weak, too frail and too slow. Eviolite also has a big disadvantage next to leftovers: it drops substitute's effectivness enough for it to become a bad option. With lefties, gothitelle could reach + 6 CMs have a sub, full health and a coverage move along psychic when setting up on amoonguss and other weak special attackers. Such a set on gothorita will end up with far less hp and a lower speed. This leaves us with rest nearly being an obligation on a gothorita set. Sleep talk usualy comes along with rest leaving only 2 other moves. This is why I say the resttalk CM set is the only one remaining and imo it was gothitelle's weakest set with the scarf one. It sure has a niche, but when facing a team where it can't set up, it's as good as a rest talk glalie.

I wasn't directing that at you (I actually had opened the page around 6:00 but had to go somewhere else before I made that post). What you say is definitely true by and large, and I concede, as I did above, that Gothorita is definitely not a 100% replacement to Gothitelle. I wouldn't say Sleep Talk is 100% necessary on sets that run Rest however. Sure the ability to actually do something while asleep is useful, but Gothorita is really only going to be trying to set up on walls with low attack stats anyway. I'm thinking maybe Rest/Calm Mind/Psychic Move/Coverage or Rest/Calm Mind/Substitute/Psychic Move if you feel confident Dark Types can be removed. Are those sets going to be anywhere near as effective as Gothitelle's Sub Calm Mind set? Probably not. You're right that it's less versatile and I never said it wasn't. I'm just saying that something that can, depending on investment, have the equivalent of 60 HP / ~130 Def or 60 HP / ~150 SpDef, that can kill a mon almost 100% of the time that, even with Gothitelle in the meta, was still on one in very six and a half teams, and that has a niche that no other mon in the tier can duplicate isn't a trashmon in league with other trappers in the tier like Diglett.

[Annoyer]

Sure gothorita is bulkier, but my point was that it's much less versatile. Choice sets are too weak, too frail and too slow. Eviolite also has a big disadvantage next to leftovers: it drops substitute's effectivness enough for it to become a bad option. With lefties, gothitelle could reach + 6 CMs have a sub, full health and a coverage move along psychic when setting up on amoonguss and other weak special attackers. Such a set on gothorita will end up with far less hp and a lower speed. This leaves us with rest nearly being an obligation on a gothorita set. Sleep talk usualy comes along with rest leaving only 2 other moves. This is why I say the resttalk CM set is the only one remaining and imo it was gothitelle's weakest set with the scarf one. It sure has a niche, but when facing a team where it can't set up, it's as good as a rest talk glalie.

I agree with you on how Gothorita is much less versatile than Gothitelle, but having an amazing set that handpicks what it can set on by any means is nothing short of bad. RestTalk is a great set (the best imo) and isn't weak after multiple CM boosts which are very easy to get against defensively teams or any team with a mon that can't touch Gothorita. Gothorita does lose out on the offensives capabilities that Gothitelle possessed but shouldn't be seen badly just because it is an inferior version to Gothitelle.

POST 100 WGDHUEJSHDHSBHD :)

[DTC]

So what do you guys think of Sawk in the current NU metagame? I'm sure everyone here has made a Sawk weak team at least once. Without a bulky Fighting-type resistance, it can easily rip through a team with its Choice Band Close Combats. It can also act as a one-time check to many offensive threats thanks to Sturdy. Choice Scarf Sawk is also pretty good for ripping through offensive teams, although it will be less effective against the more common bulky offense teams without Choice Band.

I think Sawk is still pretty awesome like always, but it's not as good as it used to be despite getting Ice Punch. Regenerator Amoonguss and Golurk really took a toll on Sawk. While Sawk has Ice Punch to 2HKO them, Sawk being locked into Ice Punch is easy to take advantage of thanks to its low base Power. Amoonguss also doesn't mind switching out when Sawk predicts and uses Ice Punch. A few things that recently got more popular also made Sawk less effective, such as Garbodor, Exeggutor, Musharna, and hazards.

Also, has anyone used Salac Berry Sawk? It could be decent with some support, but hazards (especially Stealth Rock) and priority being so common really discourages me from using Salac Berry Sawk.

[Sweet Jesus]

I think sawk isn't as powerful as he used to be with the rise of amoonguss and alomomola, not to mention there's still tangela, weezing and musharna creeping around. Any good team has a sawk counter really, and being often choice locked means sawk is usualy a usless team member as long as that counter isn't down. Since his counters tend to be the main physical walls of a team, they usualy hang around for a while, often leaving sawk usless until the end of the game. I personally prefer emboar who has acess to flare blitz and can come in on annoying ice attacks from regice and others.

Salac berry looks cool, but as DTC said, it's ruined by priority. I'll also add it's much harder to get to salac range if sturdy has been broken by hazards. Still, Sturdy salac berry can abuse reversal to it's full potential. I'd have to try it to tell if the set actually works or is a complete gimmick.

[erisia]

The thing is, people are saying that Sawk is vulnerable to priority, but it resists Sucker Punch, which is by far and away the most common (and generally dangerous) priority move, and it can actually switch in and threaten most users of the move. As a result, Sawk can then set up a Substitute as it forces the likes of Skuntank, Absol and Cacturne out (who would ordinarily assume Sawk would use Close Combat) and it's then a fairly straightforward process to get into Salac Berry range. Stuff like Samurott and Swellow can be annoying, but they still get mauled by Close Combat or Reversal if they attempt to switch in or deal with Sawk while it has a Substitute up.

I think the more concerning thing, however, is that Salac Sawk /really/ has problems getting past stuff like Amoonguss, Alomomola, Misdreavus, Musharna, etc that can take unboosted hits, potentially even from Reversal. Isn't the idea of Sub-Salac users that they're hard to wall?