np: NU Stage 6 - Magic Black Woman

[Annoyer]

A while ago, I used to think of Sawk as an overrated threat that is easy to play against since it is mainly choiced, but Choice Band Sawk is extremely threatening. With good prediction, it can destroy any team without Musharna or Weezing due to it's good speed, great coverage. and amazing base Attack stat. Ice Punch is really great for hitting many of Sawk's checks such as Eggy, Lurk, and Amoonguss super-effectively. It also takes advantages of hazards very well since it forces many switches due to it's powerful attacks to a point where resists will get KO'd by a move of its choice.

Sturdy is also really great since it means it can essentially take any hit and backfire with a strong attack. It does have its downfalls since any decent team can play around its good coverage because it is choiced and without a choice item, Sawk lacks the power to break through walls and resists or it won't be able to outspeed much. Therefore, Salac Berry looks like a cool option to attain the same speed of Choice Scarf while being able to switch moves. It's only downfall is obviously priority and being weaker but Reversal kind of makes up for it. With correct EVs/IVs, Sawk can achieve the Salac Berry boost after 3 Substitutes which might allow Sawk to live some weak priority attacks.

EDIT: After using Sawk (CB Sawk) for a bit, I have to say that it is really great. It basically forces the opponent to guess which move it takes because of it's great damage. When Sturdy is active and good prediction, it guarantees at least one KO. Sawk opens holes for that many other sweepers can take advantage of. People should really start using it more.

[FLCL]

I agree with the above post; Sawk has been overlooked ever since powerful Physical attackers such as Cinccino and Zangoose became popular. Many teams only run Golurk or Amoonguss as their Sawk "counters" and both of them can be taken down with a Choice Banded Ice Punch. It faces a lot of competition from Gurdurr, who is arguably better in this metagame due to its ability to beat so many Pokemon one-on-one. Nevertheless, Sawk is definitely something I will test in the near future.

[Raseri]

I love Sawk in this metagame. Now that Gothitelle has left it has gotten a lot better, outside of Musharna is it nearly impossible to switch in to Sawk. Saying that Sawk is susceptible to priority is wrong, it isn't weak to any of it, in fact it resists Sucker Punch! The Adamant Choice Band set is amazing, whenever it comes in it essentially gets a kill.

Sawk actually has a huge impact on the metagame, since it severely limits teambuilding due to its amazing attack, solid speed and (now) strong movepool. Even though it is very predictable it is still amazing. Just switch in and use Close Combat.

All in all, Sawk is one of the best Pokemon in the metagame, a top 10 mon in my opinion.

[Sweet Jesus]

Originally Posted by Fat Raseri

I love Sawk in this metagame. Now that Gothitelle has left it has gotten a lot better, outside of Musharna is it nearly impossible to switch in to Sawk. Saying that Sawk is susceptible to priority is wrong, it isn't weak to any of it, in fact it resists Sucker Punch! The Adamant Choice Band set is amazing, whenever it comes in it essentially gets a kill.

Sawk actually has a huge impact on the metagame, since it severely limits teambuilding due to its amazing attack, solid speed and (now) strong movepool. Even though it is very predictable it is still amazing. Just switch in and use Close Combat.

All in all, Sawk is one of the best Pokemon in the metagame, a top 10 mon in my opinion.

I think we were all talking about salac berry set when saying sawk was weak to priority, choice sawk can surely take a couple of priority moves.

There's more than mushy that sawk doesn't 2HKO, Weezing and missy can wall him pretty well and as DTC said, amoonguss can abuse his choice band with regenerator (and maybe alomomola if the team also runs something like garbodor). Let's also not forget that although he can 2HKO nearly everything, prediction is a guess, when facing a skilled player it's often 50-50.

Even if he is a wallreaker, the fact many pokemon are immune or take near nothing from his main attacks mean he can also be abused by something setting up on him rather than revenge killing him which can be very hard to handle for offensive teams.

I'm not saying sawk is a bad pokemon, fighting is an awesome type and sawk is one of NU's best wallbreakers with emboar, but personaly, I prefer emboar.

[EBeast]

Yeah Sawk is always a major threat, and I don't think I've ever overlooked it in every team I make. I played a lot of early NU to know how devastating it was, and how much it destroys teams that I always made sure to include a Sawk check/counter.

While we're talking about the metagame at hand I have to saw I absolutely love how it is atm. Every game I have played has been a blast and I hope future metas stay this way. :] Many awesome Pokemon such as Ludicolo, Samurott, Golurk, Regirock, Musharna, and Zangoose to use and even with as few drops as few have new Pokemon get discovered all the time! SubBU Braviary has shaken the metagame quite a bit, and is in my opinion the biggest threat in NU atm. Sadly the usage stats on PS don't really reflect that, I mean Musharna at #27 and Ludicolo #25???

To start some more discussion, what is everyone here's personal top 5? Also maybe you have a small list of underdogs, list that as well and let us know!

For me my top 5 would be:
1) Braviary - SubBU is beyond amazing, Scarf is a powerful and reliable revenge killer, and CB breaks apart everything. All excellent sets and capable of always pulling their weight in every game. SubBU can set up on Rock-types if needed while taking advantage to the fullest of its great bulk and access to Roost. Scarf Braviary is a powerful cleaner and great scout that revenge kills dangerous threats such as Zangoose, Cinccino, and Ludicolo. Choice Band Braviary has almost no safe switch ins and even by just spamming Brave Bird will deal major damage to Rock-types such as Golem. Dealing with each set is done is different manners and until you see it nuke something or start Bulking Up you won't know what Braviary will do before it's too late.

2) Musharna - Great typing and amazing bulk. Excellent Calm Mind booster with Heal Bell and can even Baton Pass out its boosts. More uncommon sets such as Trick Room or Pivot are just as great. Musharna's better-than-Reuniclus bulk makes it one of the few safe switch ins to Sawk while being one of the hardest Pokemon in NU to OHKO; even with super effective attacks!

3) Ludicolo - Very hard to switch into and most teams have to pivot around with their own Ludicolos or hope they can get out their checks early. Good switch in to the popular Special Samurott set and deals with Gorebyss. Once it sets up a Rain Dance almost nothing commonly used can outspeed it besides Jolly Scarf Tauros and Trace Scarf Gardevoir. In the rain it can even neuter Musharna, dealing up to 84% while the rain gimps Musharna's main form of recovery in Moonlight. Overall one of the best Pokemon in NU

4) Samurott - Samurott is an incredible power Pokemon in every right. Both its special sets and physical sets are massive threats to every team forces an opponent to scout before switching to a counter. If they guess wrong they basically lose a Pokemon right then and there.

5) Regirock - Regirock is one of the best users of Stealth Rock in NU, coming equipped with excellent 80 / 200 / 100 defenses and a wide movepool with moves such as Drain Punch, Ice Punch, and Thunder Wave. With it's excellent bulk and coverage it sticks around for extended periods of times throughout the match to check whatever it needs to. With Thunder Wave it can cripple potential switch ins such as Samurott, while with Ice Punch it lures it its most common switch in, Golurk, and allows Regirock to 2HKO it.

For underdogs I would have to say three Pokemon that stand out to me are Torkoal, Rotom-F, and Mawile.

Shell Smash Tokoal, SMASHKOAL, is in my opinion the best Rapid Spin user in NU. After a Smash it can easily outspeed Golurk, Drifblim, and Misdreavus and burn them alive with Fire Blast, while also having good coverage options in Earth Power or Hidden Power Grass. Rotom-F is often underlooked over Rotom-S, but Rotom-Frost's superior dual STAB makes it so that it doesn't really need a Hidden Power for coverage and can use HP Ice for a more accurate STAB option. Mawile has access to Intimidate, Stealth Rock, Taunt, Seismic Toss, and Pain Split; all makings of a great support Pokemon. Thanks to its Steel-type its capable of walling foes such as Cinccino, Amoonguss, and Fraxure while still supporting its team. *cough*worthy of RG*cough*

[FLCL]

I'd probably put Gurdurr in Samurott's place and Haunter in Mushy's place for reasons we discussed on IRC. Samurott is great right now, but I feel that Ludicolo does the Special Attacking role a lot better. Swords Dance is not as great without Gothitelle and requires some team support before it can sweep though Amoonguss and Alomomola.

As for Mushy, a lot more people are running Dark-types, at least from what I've seen. This could be a carry-over effect from the Gothitelle era. The metagame has developed to be a lot more hard-hitting, which doesn't benefit Musharna a lot.

Gurdurr and Haunter both deserve more love in this metagame. Gurdurr can plow through most teams lacking Musharna, Amoonguss, or Alomomola. It can even beat Amoonguss and Alomomola if you play your cards right. Not many Pokemon can beat it one-on-one and it can demolish some popular Physical Attackers. Haunter can often break down offensive and defensive teams with ease. The SubDisable set is easily its best and is extremely deadly with Spikes.

Speaking of Spikes, I'll have to admit that Garbodor is great currently despite my endless hate for it. It can set up really easily against defensive teams and finds multiple opportunities to do so even against offense. One is in for a beating if they do not use their SMASHKOALS wisely.

[Agent Dell]

Indeed, I personally think that people often give Musharna a little too much credit, but I'll talk about that later.

As for Sawk, it is a simple, yet very effective Pokemon. It is one of those Pokemon whose effectiveness depend widely on the skill level of the user. It is quite honestly amazing at what it does. Personally I think that people should use Sawk as more of a team player with its excellent power, STAB, useful coverage, and the Choice Band set definitely takes best advantage of this. Choice Band Sawk is more effective than ever before in the metagame IMO.

Also, all of these people are listing "counters" to Sawk, when in reality those counters barely exist outside of our heads anymore. Think about it, the most common Pokemon that straight up "counters" Sawk? The answer would be Musharna most obviously. Amoonguss can hold up to standards as well, but that's mostly prediction-based against the Choice Band set. Things that's most of you mentioned are taking huge dives in usage themselves. Weezing? That Pokemon is naturally uncommon to begin with, mainly because of the increased usage of Haunter and Psychic types in general, such as Musharna and Gardevoir. Misdreavus? Though I will admit its decent amount of usage, but it's usually plagued in usage because of Golurk and the extremely common Dark types being Absol or Skuntank, which also happen to become essential in terms of pairing up with Fighting types, which would explain the ever so-common Fighting/Dark/Psychic core. Pokemon like these are actually doing it a huge favor by heavily limiting the usage of its so-called counters, which is why, contrary to popular opinions, Choice Band Sawk is very potent and effective in the metagame. Like Gurdurr, once its few still-used counters are dealt with by its common teammates, it will ravage, and often, clean through opposing teams with relative ease.

[Sweet Jesus]

Cool idea Ebeast, I'll have to agree with you about braviary, haven't tried sub bu yet, but it looks devastating. Ludicolo still has it's place as a top tier threat because of that crazy coverage and powerful surf. I'll have to agree with FLCL about gurdurr over samurott, in my last team I had a couple of 6-0's using only him (not great players, but still shows his power). However, I think mushy is more threatening than haunter personaly. Dark types may seem a problem, but there all relatively frail and most don't recover (dat synthesis cacturne lol). Regirock I think is arguable too, I'd put eelektross instead. That Eel seems to do good against just about every team. it's decent bulk, lack of weaknesses, unpredictability and slow powerful volt switch with great coverage is a deadly thing that brings importatnt momentum. I nearly always find myself in embarassing siuations when facing a good player with eelektross. Emboar could also switch places with one of those 5.

I'll try to come up with underdogs later, too busy atm.

[kniteowl]

Musharna is awesome and it capable of beating dark types if you carry Signal beam but it's usually a choice between heal bell and signal beam for me.

As for Choice band Sawk Counters, it sounds like people have forgotten about Eviolite Tangela back before Regenerator Amoonguss. Even with access to ice punch, close combat still does more damage to Tangela and it tanked it like a champ.

As for underdogs, I've been trying out Stunfisk because I was having trouble with rotom-S and needed someone to also set up rocks. and not be 2hko-ed by airslash.

Stunfisk was a lot more bulky and checked a lot more pokemon then I expected, it was spreading status like crazy thanks to it's static ability, and access to discharge and scald, while all of these only have a 30% chance of happening. Eventually you'll hit the jackpot.

Thanks to static I've crippled many pokemon such as U-turners like Cinccino and contact flying type moves I resisted like Brave Bird Braviary and Acrobatics Driflim.

[mrite]

Just posting to say that CB relicanth is incredibly good right now, as its best counter, tangela has faded away, as referenced by the previous post, and head smash can OHKO some Amoonguss, and everyone loves to switch in the shroom to the old fish.

Even better, Relicanth can find room on its set for the wonderful, near necessary move, stealth rock, thus serving a double purpose.

So, in summary, Relicanth definitely deserves more usage than combusken, and much more than Wartortle

[cuckoos]

Originally Posted by Fat mrite

So, in summary, Relicanth definitely deserves more usage than combusken, and much more than Wartortle

I would disagree with the Combusken statement. The standard Fire Blast/Focus Blast/LOrb set is extremely useful in the offensive metagame as a late game sweeper, as it completely mutilates things that don't resist it; and with a superb STAB coverage those resists are only limited to a small handful. With Speed Boost, it becomes nearly impossible to revenge kill unless you come packing (at least) a decently strong neutral priority move. The only thing you have to worry about is missing a Blast, but then again the worries are mutual with Relicanth's Head Smash. I've partnered this particular set with Masquerain as Quiver Dance boosts are always invaluable, and they both share a pretty decent type synergy.

I can attest to Band Relicanth's usefulness though; Head Smash is pretty terrifying and Rock Head does a good job of keeping him on the field for longer than two seconds.

[Agent Dell]

Originally Posted by Fat kniteowl

Musharna is awesome and it capable of beating dark types if you carry Signal beam but it's usually a choice between heal bell and signal beam for me.

As for Choice band Sawk Counters, it sounds like people have forgotten about Eviolite Tangela back before Regenerator Amoonguss. Even with access to ice punch, close combat still does more damage to Tangela and it tanked it like a champ.

As for underdogs, I've been trying out Stunfisk because I was having trouble with rotom-S and needed someone to also set up rocks. and not be 2hko-ed by airslash.

Stunfisk was a lot more bulky and checked a lot more pokemon then I expected, it was spreading status like crazy thanks to it's static ability, and access to discharge and scald, while all of these only have a 30% chance of happening. Eventually you'll hit the jackpot.

Thanks to static I've crippled many pokemon such as U-turners like Cinccino and contact flying type moves I resisted like Brave Bird Braviary and Acrobatics Driflim.

Most of the time, people wouldn't want Signal Beam over Heal Bell because then it would be much less versatile on beating certain things 1v1. Also, if you're trying to utilize coverage, you're pretty much better off using Gardevoir or any other Psychic type than Musharna, since they are much better at bypassing through them off the bat.

I've never listed Tangela because it gets 2HKO'd on average after Stealth Rock.

[KingQuag]

Originally Posted by Fat kniteowl

As for underdogs, I've been trying out Stunfisk because I was having trouble with rotom-S and needed someone to also set up rocks. and not be 2hko-ed by airslash.

Stunfisk was a lot more bulky and checked a lot more pokemon then I expected, it was spreading status like crazy thanks to it's static ability, and access to discharge and scald, while all of these only have a 30% chance of happening. Eventually you'll hit the jackpot.

Thanks to static I've crippled many pokemon such as U-turners like Cinccino and contact flying type moves I resisted like Brave Bird Braviary and Acrobatics Driflim.

I don't know if I could agree with this anymore. Stunfisk has been proving me a great deal of support in the game coupled with Meganium, especially with Cinccino leads. Normally if I just lead of with Stunfisk to get my Rocks up, and my opponent leads with Cinccino, I just switch to Meganium to take the Bullet Seed and then go right back into Stunfisk to take the incoming U-Turn or Tail Slap. More often than not they end up going for the Tail Slap and I end up getting the Static off on it and damn near screw it over. Even with Amoonguss still trollin' around in the tier, Stunfisk also is still a useful Sleep Fodder because once you get your Rocks up then Stunfisk is really just used to take hits on the special side and for switch-ins to some physical hitters for a chance of para. Stunfisk really is a terribly underrated Pokemon in the tier and I really hope to see it get some more usage. (Not enough to go RU though because I still like it down here :P)

[Pocket]

Sorry for going off of tangent, but I just wanted to bring an issue brought up in the OU forums that may affect NU

Would you guys be okay if Cacturne loses out on Bullet Seed and Encore if Sand Veil gets banned? I'm requesting for a Sand Veil + Sandstream ban instead, but some players are really adamant about banning Sand Veil in its entirety (cuz "they don't want SV Chomp punishing Sand teams"). If the loss of Encore and Bullet Seed are negligible to the viability of Cacturne, I'd rather not continue the flame war. Thanks for the input!

[Raseri]

They are both very Important attacks, since they're both quite common.

[Pocket]

Well, I'm not asking whether it's a common move or not, but rather is it essential for Cacturne to perform its role in NU. Would Cacturne not be able to perform the same role without these 2 moves?

[blarajan]

No. Cacturne would be neutered.

[Django]

Cacturne could still set up Spikes on occaision yes, but the actual niche it gets of having Spikes + Encore, which is fantastic for setting up on stall teams, would be gone. Also, Bullet Seed prevents Sturdy Golem from setting up Stealth Rock which would again, hinder Cacturne and reduce the number of reasons to use it over Garbador.

[Pocket]

It would be nice if you guys can PM the OU council members about this (Jabba, Aldaron, Bloo, Haunter), because as of right now Sand Veil ban will become a reality. Unless you guys don't care about Cacturne being nerfed.

[pokemonnerd]

Yes, Cacturne plays such a pivotal role as a Sand Veil user in NU. Especially considering that Hippopotas is so very common in the metagame, I wonder how the sand veil ban will affect its viability. Only time will tell!

[Django]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

It would be nice if you guys can PM the OU council members about this (Jabba, Aldaron, Bloo, Haunter), because as of right now Sand Veil ban will become a reality. Unless you guys don't care about Cacturne being nerfed.

I think you forgot Iconic ^_^

Also I can tell you now their response will be something along the lines of "All other tiers derive from OU, they would not exist without OU. Making a ban more complex than it needs to be so it does not affect a lower tier is pointless". To be honest I sympathise with them somewhat; OU is the main tier and should have priority when it comes to tiering decisions, and making bans complex just makes the game harder to get into for newer players.

[Zebraiken*]

Originally Posted by Fat Django

I think you forgot Iconic ^_^

Also I can tell you now their response will be something along the lines of "All other tiers derive from OU, they would not exist without OU. Making a ban more complex than it needs to be so it does not affect a lower tier is pointless". To be honest I sympathise with them somewhat; OU is the main tier and should have priority when it comes to tiering decisions, and making bans complex just makes the game harder to get into for newer players.

I agree with this post wholly. While essentially pseudo-banning Encore and Bullet Seed Cacturne is something we'd like to avoid if possible, it should not be the lone factor that pushes the council for OU (a place where Cacturne is essentially nonexistant, especially without Sand Veil) to create a complex ban where a straight-up Sand Veil ban would have been sufficient. Encore and Bullet Seed certainly give Cacturne a leg up on its competition, but by no means will the metagame flounder because Cacturne is slightly worse for wear.

[Pocket]

Well, just letting you know, that you can voice your sound opinions if you desire :)

this is my latest post on the subject

Thanks for your input!

[Ewil]

I'd post the same question, some pages ago and no one consider me :'(
Anyway, that's my thoughs on the possible ban of Sand Veil and Cacturne influence about it:

I'm a NU player and i don't really care for Cacturne being nerfed by a ban coming from OU.
UU didn't think twice to ban Gothitelle and she was banned from all tiers under it, so i don't understand the motivation that you stop in front a little nerf of a NU poke. Cacturne's first role in NU is setting up spikes and gives some offensive presence and you'll don't negate both of them if you ban Sand Veil, because the only two (really useful) moves that gets 'banned' from Cacturne are Encore and Bullet Seed that YES, makes the job of Cacturne easier, but Cacturne still has Spikes and Sucker Punch, his maine support and offensive moves.

If Cacturne has to become less threating for a necessary ban (and obvious in my eyes, since SV breaks the Evasion clause) he should be nerfed for the health of OU.

I loose two useful move, but i compensate in some manner using Water Absorb that isn't a useless ability and cacturne has Sword Dance, Substitute, Seed Bomb and other moves to use in place of Encore and Bullet Seed.

That's my two cents ^^

[DTC]

Agreeing with Django and Zebraiken.

The loss of Bullet Seed and Encore won't be that bad for Cacturne. A few months ago, nearly all Cacturne were not using Bullet Seed, Drain Punch, and Encore and were just using Water Absorb. It was pretty good then, and now Drain Punch + Water Absorb is legal. While Cacturne has a bad match-up against most Water-types, it does do a few things for Cacturne off the top of my head: a) Allows Cacturne to Sucker Punch Samurott that are using Aqua Jet b) Prevents Cacturne from getting burned by Alomomola's Scald or getting defeated by Waterfall when it's at like 10% c) Allows Cacturne to heal by switching into Water-type attacks and switching out in clutch situations.

So yeah, Cacturne won't be nerfed that badly, and I'd be willing to live with it. A few NU players don't even like Bullet Seed Cacturne that much anyways, although the loss of Encore is annoying. Maybe we'll see more sets like Spikes / Seed Bomb / Sucker Punch / Swords Dance @ Focus Sash. Some teams using Spikes is better and other teams setting up with Swords Dance and attempting to sweep is the better course of action.

Anyways, agreeing with EBeast that Braviary is one of the best, if not the best Pokemon in NU right now. The power of Choice Band Braviary is INSANE. I've demolished so many teams with it. The new SubBU set is very annoying to beat as well. It has four very good sets that all have differing checks and counters, although LO Roost shares most of its checks and counters with Choice Band.

Speaking of Roost, I just had an idea: maybe Roost could be a half-decent filler on Choice Band Braviary. I honestly don't find myself using U-turn all that much besides some 1v1 match-ups like Braviary vs Exeggutor. Stealth Rock is also a pain. With Roost, you can heal off Brave Bird recoil and any damage you've taken from the opponents. It's a good way to take advantage of a switch if you either a) can't muscle past x Pokemon that the guy is switching into or b) the move you use to get past x Pokemon has a flaw that is really easy to take advantage of and you can't afford to let the opposition gain that advantage. Just something to think about; I'm pretty sure U-turn will still be the best and most used option on Braviary. Any move that doesn't attack is an extremely risky move to use on a Choiced attacker, so you could only Roost in the most dire situations.