Syclar - Part 4 - Stat Submissions

***Birkal**** · Aug 29th, 2012, 1:08:54 AM

In the first thread of this pre-evolution process, we discussed some of the overall ideas that we need to focus on for Syclar, the pre-evolution of Syclant. At the end, I threw out some thoughts that are necessary to consider for the future of Syclar. Please read through that post you you understand where I'm coming from in the following threads. Thanks!

Now that we've decided Syclar's abilities, we're moving on to giving it some stats. In this thread, we're going to be submitting stat spreads for Syclar, the pre-evolution of Syclant. Please recall Syclant's stat spread for this stage:

Quote:

70 / 116 / 70 / 114 / 64 / 121

Also please refer to the thread that I linked to in the first paragraph of this post. That preliminary thread had a lot of thoughts on stat spreads, so please draw inspiration from there if at all possible. It is possible that we could potentially mirror one of the four Pokemon listed at the end of that thread (Joltik, Growlithe, Karrablast / Shelmet, and Anorith). Just make sure you back up your spreads with ingame evidence whenever possible.

If you're looking for any advice on your stat spread, come consult us in #cap on IRC; we'd be glad to help. However, please not that I am not a guru of Pokemon stats by any means. CAP moderator Elevator Music has a strong background in Little Cup, so please refer to him if you have an indepth question. If you don't have any idea what this stage is all about, I recommend you sit in the back seat on this one and only provide suggestions. Thanks for your understanding.

For Little Cup stat junkies

For the record, this is stolen from the previous CAP pre-evo thread (which kidnapped it from the preceding thread).

For reference, these are the neutral-nature thresholds at which a level 5 Pokemon reaches a higher stat. On the left is the raw stat hit and on the right is the base stat used to achieve that new threshold. Note that for different base stats, the EV requirements to hit higher stat thresholds are different. I don't care if your stat spread makes Syclar terrible or excellent in the Little Cup metagame; just make sure there is some reasoning behind your suggested spreads.

HP
17: 5 (Minimum)
18: 15
19: 25
20: 35
21: 45
22: 55
23: 65
24: 75
25: 85
26: 95
27: 105
28: 115
29: 125
30: 135

ATK/DEF/SPA/SPD/SPE
7: 5 (Minimum)
8: 15
9: 25
10: 35
11: 45
12: 55
13: 65
14: 75
15: 85
16: 95
17: 105
18: 115
19: 125
20: 135

NOTE: These base stats all require 236 EVs to get +3.

Like I mentioned, consider a base Attack stat of 75. This results in 14 Attack for a level 5 pre-evo, with 236 Atk EVs needed to hit 17. A base Attack stat of 80, on the other hand, still starts at 14 Attack, but requires only 196 Atk EVs to hit 17. If we extend this further, you notice that the base Attack stat of 85 results in a flat 15 Attack. It takes 156 Atk EVs to raise that stat to 17. See how this trend works? Every 5 point increment of a base Stat requires 40 fewer EVs to hit the same effective stat. This is important to keep in mind, because the fewer EVs it takes to hit a desired stat, the more EVs can be invested elsewhere. If you choose weird non-divisible-by-5 base Stat numbers, the rule above still applies, it just isn't going from 236>196>156 anymore, it's somewhere in-between.

While I am not setting a definitive time limit on this thread, expect something around the ballpark of 48 hours. Thanks!

What we have so far:

Name: Syclar
Type: Ice / Bug
Abilities: Compoundeyes / Snow Cloak
Sprite:

SpecsX · Aug 29th, 2012, 8:54:41 AM

Since no one else seems to have an opinion, I'll suggest a spread: 50/85/50/85/40/100
Looking up the mons listed, this seemed cose to what happens with the Joltik/Growlithe lines: not too big of a difference in stats, just a middling decrease.
I don't know how these stats translate into LC.

***Vader**** · Aug 29th, 2012, 11:37:11 AM

100 speed is not realistic for a prevo. voltorb is the only one with 100 base speed and he has the highest base speed, followed by elekid and diglett at 95 each. 83-91 range makes 19 speed with full EVs, but I feel like 75-80, which is Gastly/Anorith speed and tops out at 18, would make more sense.

Eagle4 · Aug 29th, 2012, 12:03:21 PM

55/80/50/80/45/70 would be my suggestion. A middle balance of stats compared to Scylant, and still some damaging special attack. The reason its speed is lower than what most people would expect is that Scylar looks slower than Scylant by a mile. Scylar is at its "needs wings" period which would increase the speed considerably. Flying or scuttling? I know which one's faster...

**Elevator Music** · Aug 29th, 2012, 12:09:35 PM

This might not be the most helpful thing, but it's probably better than nothing so I'm going to include it. It's not really the stats themselves that matter, more the base stats, but this is for all the people wondering what your spread translates to at level 5. The formula for stats at level 5 are the following:

HP:
(((2 x Base + IV + (EV / 4)) x 5 / 100 + 15)

Other stats:
((((2 x Base + IV + (EV / 4)) x 5 / 100 + 5) x Nature)

Base is the base stat
IV is the IV value (just use 31 for a start)
EV is the number of EVs invested (just use 0 for a start)
Nature is 1 for a neutral nature, 1.1 for a positive nature, and 0.9 for a negative nature (just use 1 for a start)

(Note: after every division, the total is rounded down.)

Once you've looked at the stats with 31 IV, 0 EVs, and a neutral nature, its easy to figure out everything else.

On that note, my advice for figuring out a believable stat spread is to look at examples of prevos, especially the families of Pokemon we think resemble the Syclant family. Look at how much the base stats change, and figure out believable jumps. The final stats aren't so important (as we don't care how competitive Syclar is), so do your best to figure out a spread that seems true to the game.

Shelmet · Aug 29th, 2012, 12:57:36 PM

I'm going to say 50 / 80 / 55 / 80 / 45 / 75

50 / 55 / 45 defenses seem to represent but not replicate Syclants frailishness (wtf right)

80 Atk and SpAtk is a good show of offense and 75 speed is near the top of the tier, but I'm also taking into consideration Eagle's scuttle/fly thought. Syclant was meant to be frail and fast, so Syclar should also be fittingly fast, but not too fast.

Eagle4 · Aug 29th, 2012, 1:14:01 PM

Can I say that if we want Scylar to represent and be similar to Scylant, a higher speed is needed, say... 80-95. Very few pokemon have a speed of 121, so Scylar, if people want it to be similar, needs a speedy stat. However, if people, like myself, want Scylar to differ to Scylant due to the appearance, etc, then a speed should be in a lower region.

**jas61292** · Aug 29th, 2012, 1:42:21 PM

This is ~~not necessarily~~ final ~~yet, but right now what I am thinking.~~

35 HP / 66 Atk / 35 Def / 64 SpA / 29 SpD / 76 Spe

Which would produce little cup stats (with neutral nature and no EVs) of

20 / 13 / 10 / 12 / 9 / 14

Now, you might be thinking that those stats look somewhat low, and yes, yes they are. Its a BST of 305, which is 250 points below that of Syclant. However, I think such a drop in stats is necessary. No Pokemon outside of Arcanine has as high a BST as Syclant while having only one prevo, and while originally, I was going to try and base the stats off of Growlithe, every spread I could come up with with Growlite's 350 BST just seemed too strong or too bulky. So I took a slightly different approach with this and started by laying out a few rules that I wanted to follow with this spread.

The most important of these rules was that I wanted the differences between the offensive stats and between the defensive stats to remain unchanged. While offenses and defenses as a whole may change relative to each other, I wanted the close but not exactly the same offenses and defenses to stay as they were. Doing this was fairly easy, I just had to chop off the same amount from each offensive stat and the same amount from each defensive stat. Now, while there is incredible variation in how stats change upon evolution, I decided that it would be necessary to decrease the offenses more than the defenses. This means that while the offenses still remain significantly higher than the defenses, it is neither ridiculously powerful, nor obscenely frail (well, sorta, at least).

Another thing I wanted to accomplish with this spread was to emphasize the physical nature of Syclar. In my opinion, while Syclar should be offensive minded in all ways, it just seems like more of a physical monster to me than special. However, as I said before, I felt that it should keep its offensive stats very close to each other like Syclant. So, my goal was to make it so that, while the Attack and Sp. Attack stay only two points off, this difference should amount to an actual stat point differential in little cup play. Now, this was actually very easy, as by simply making the reduction of offensive stats from Syclant a multiple of ten, the base stats would straddle a multiple of five, making Attack that single point better, despite the very close base stats.

The third thing I considered was keeping the Base Stat Total a multiple of five. While not a hard rule, to my knowledge, of all two stage evolutionary lines, only two Pokemon with BSTs that are multiples of 5 have prevos who's BSTs are not multiples of 5. And, of these two lines (Vulpix and Woobat), only one existed in gen 4 when Syclant was created. As such, I feel it would be best to follow this convention.

With these three conditions satisfied, all that I really had left to do was determine exactly where the stats would sit. I had a general outline, but I could add or subtract 10 from each offensive stat or 5 from each defensive stat and still fulfill everything I wanted. The first thing I wanted to decided on was the speed. Like Vader said above, I feel that Syclar should probably be in the same speed range as Anorith, which, in accordance with what I laid out above, meant a stat of 76. And with that set, to satisfy all the conditions the offenses were set at 66 and 64, respectively. For the defenses, on the other hand, I didn't have particular goal in mind for. So I decided to pick a BST, and then set the defenses in order to achieve it. As I mentioned already, I felt that the kind of BST you might expect to evolve into Syclant would be too strong for Syclar, so I chose one that was the same as some Pokemon that I believed it should be more on par with, such as Venonat and Shelmet. And, with that set, the defenses fell into place.

I feel this spread captures the similarity of Syclar and its evolution, while recognizing that Syclar does not have ridiculous all around power on its own.

Espeon65 · Aug 29th, 2012, 3:10:46 PM

i was thinking 50/75/45/65/40/80...basically just a smaller, weaker version of syclant.

SpecsX · Aug 29th, 2012, 3:32:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Vader

100 speed is not realistic for a prevo. voltorb is the only one with 100 base speed and he has the highest base speed, followed by elekid and diglett at 95 each. 83-91 range makes 19 speed with full EVs, but I feel like 75-80, which is Gastly/Anorith speed and tops out at 18, would make more sense.

Actually since Electrode has 130 base speed and Syclant has 121, it could be a legitimate speed, although 95 is probably a better stat.

Nyktos · Aug 29th, 2012, 5:11:53 PM

One thing to note is that Syclant has several stats not divisible by 5; in cases where this happens, the prevo's stats in the same areas are usually also off by the same amount. So precedent would have Syclar, like Syclant, with HP and Defense multiples of 5, Attack and Speed 1 more than multiples of 5, and Special Attack and Special Defense 1 less than multiples of 5.

***Birkal**** · Aug 29th, 2012, 5:20:44 PM

While I don't mind the current layout, please recall that you need to label your finalized submission as a Final Submission. Make sure that your post lists some reasoning and explanation; I won't take any submissions that are "stand alone" and convey no content. Look in this thread if you need some ideas on how to do that. Thankee!

uxsee · Aug 29th, 2012, 6:45:53 PM

Final Submission:

53/76/53/72/36/87

How I Got These Stats:

BST

I first started out by finding a list of all Stage 2 Bug and Ice Types (and Arcanine) and came up with this:

...

I then made this list more relevant to Syclant by only including pokemon with a BST of 475 of more and had a BST change and it was reduced to this list:

...

I then looked up the BST of all of the pokemon and their pre-evolutions and subtracted the final evolutions' from the pre-evolution:

...

I then found the average of all of the differences of BST in each type:

...

I then averaged all of the averages of the difference of BST for each type and subtracted it from Syclant's BST:

...

This resulted in Sylcar's BST being 377.

Actual Stats:

1.)I first found the the actual stats of all of the pre-evolutions to the pokemon from the BST and averaged the pokemon from their types:

...

I then averaged the averages of the types and found out how much of a stat increase it needed to undergo in order for the BST to be 377:

...

2.) I first re-did the averages for the Ice because the Snorunt evolves into both froslass and glalie, who are both on the list. The only thing I did different was add another Snorunt and divide by seven instead of 6.

...

I then found the averages of all of the stats of the final evolutions for their types.

...

I then took the average of these three stats and subtracted the averages of the stats from the first evolution:

...

3.) I first subtracted the difference from the average stats of the pre and final evolution and found how much it needs to lose in order to have a BST of 377:

...

I then subtracted each attacking stat by 11 and found how much it needed to gain:

...

I, finally, changed the HP and Defense stat to 53 in order to make the BST 377 and to match the HP stat created by the averaging of pre-evolution BST's and subtracted the defense stat by one in order to make it 377 and match the HP stat (similar to Syclant)

...

Imanalt · Aug 29th, 2012, 7:14:13 PM

so, im working off comparing syclant purely to arcanine to start with:
syclant has stats of 70 / 116 / 70 / 114 / 64 / 121, compared to arcanine's 90/110/80/100/80/95 so syclant has about 10% better attacking stats, and 20% worse defensive stats, with the rest made up for in speed. Now looking at growlithe, it has 55/70/45/70/50/60. Taking 20% off each of these defensive stats gives about 45/40/34 bulk stats if we adapt them to closer to syclants balance. adding our 10% to each offense gives us about 77 attacking stats, which i then adapted to follow syclant's pattern in relation to multiples of 5.
so right now were looking at 45/76/40/74/34/X. To get the same BST as growlithe, we then need 81 speed, giving us a spread of 45 / 76 / 40 / 74 / 34 / 81

Nyktos · Aug 29th, 2012, 8:29:43 PM

I too used Growlithe as my inspiration. I basically started by simply multiplying each of Syclant's stats by 350 / 555 and rounded to get a spread of 44/73/44/72/40/76 (BST 349). From there I tweaked:
- I made each stat the correct distance from a multiple of 5, like I talked about in my previous post.
- I decided that Syclar doesn't look like a powerful physical attacker, so I reduced its Attack and boosted its Special Attack to bias it a bit to that end. (Enough so that it has 1 point more in Special Attack in LC.)
- I raised Speed to made sure it was the highest base stat, as it was in Syclant.
- I lowered the defenses since the BST had grown a bit high in all this, keeping in mind also the precedent that lower evolutions tend to be more offensively-biased.

I ended up with a spread of 45 / 66 / 35 / 79 / 29 / 86 (BST 340).

DraconicWolf · Aug 29th, 2012, 11:30:28 PM

My numbers are: 40/76/35/84/29/86.

The thoughts behind them are rather long winded, so I'll hide them for those of you who don't care.

...

1) Emulate example lines.
Growlithe/Arcanine has differences of 35/40/35/30/30/35. When the same differences are applied to Syclant, Syclar's base stats look like 35/76/35/84/34/86. If you do the same with the differences for Joltik/Galvantula Syclar has 50/86/60/74/54/78 for base stats.
2) Average the emulations.
The two sets of base stats average out to about 43/81/48/79/44/82.
3) Get the base stats the correct distance from multiples of 5.
Most Pokemon maintain the distances from multiples of 5 in their stats when they evolve. The averaged stats have distances of -2/+1/-2/-1/-1/+2, while Syclant's are 0/+1/0/-1/-1/+1. If you shave off stats to get them to the correct distances you get 40/81/45/79/44/81.
4) Look at the thing.
I personally can't imagine Syclar physically attacking anything, so the fact that its attack was higher than its special attack just seems wrong. It does evolve into Syclant though, so I'm not going to kill its attack. My solution was to decrease its attack by five and increase its special attack by 5. This leads to a spread of 40/76/45/84/44/81.
5) Adjust
Syclant's defence is not higher than its HP. 40/76/40/84/44/81.
Syclant's speed is it's highest stat. 40/76/40/84/44/86.
Syclant's defence is 6 points higher than its special defence. 40/76/40/84/34/86.
6) BST
At this point the spread has a BST of 360. 10 points less and it'd be on par with Growlithe, which is where I want it to be. Take five points out of defence and special defence for 40/76/35/84/29/86, with a BST of 350.
---
For those wondering why I only used Growlithe/Arcanine and Joltik/Galvantula as examples here's why. Of all the example lines that popped up in the overview only those two work. Anorith actually loses 30 base speed when it evolves, so factoring it into the equation leaves the average stage with 105 base speed, which is insane. Karrablast/Escavalier leaves you with the same problem, albeit on a smaller scale, because it maintains its base speed when it evolves. Finally, Shelmet loses defences when it becomes Accelgor, which makes Syclar altogether too bulky.

bugmaniacbob · Aug 30th, 2012, 10:42:23 AM

Zzz

Everybody seems to be putting so much effort into these

Anyway I was bored so...

I took a leaf out of Arcanine's book and just subtracted 40 from all of Syclant's stats, hence

30 / 86 / 30 / 84 / 24 / 91

I then made the defensive stats equal and added a bit to Attack while taking the damage out of Special Attack since I can't see Syclar using special attacks at all (I mean, at least Syclant has those sort of laser arm things) so I got

35 / 96 / 30 / 68 / 30 / 91 BST 350

etc.

srk1214 · Aug 30th, 2012, 11:20:05 AM

FINAL SUBMISSION

I haven't the time to read through every spread, so I apologize if this is similar to those before mine. Modeled-ish after Archen, except switched for Special oriented.

70 / 116 / 70 / 114 / 64 / 121 (total: 555) goes to:

45 / 66 / 50 / 99 / 44 / 86 (total: 390)

ranges

Built primarily this way specifically on flavor reasons of matching divisibilities of base stats while also reflecting the art and intention of the prevo. To me removing Mountaineer from Syclar implied to me a level of physical bad-assery only attained upon evolution to Syclant. Syclar look to me like they either can't attack at all, or can attack like a boss Specially. Because we retained Compoundeyes, I chose the latter.

A high BST of the evolution generally predicates a high BST for the prevo. Since Syclar no longer has Syclant's Mountaineer, it is far far far harder to use. If we do want Syclar to be competitively viable, I feel a strong necessity is special sweepiness. Speed and Special Attack of 86 and 99 respectively leave Syclar beaten out only by Abra. However, Abra is a Psychic type weak to offensive Dark types' Pursuits and Sucker punches and also to Vullaby's stalling. (Also it dies to a Splash from Magikarp.)

No more with Syclar! Syclar instead fires off compoundeyes-boosted STAB blizzards in faces. Of course, this is a trade off. While Syclar can use Blizzard to beat Vullaby, it's repelled by Munchlax's Thick Fat and Frillish's typing. And with too low of an Attack stat to make a dent, Syclar will not best Munchlax or Frillish under any normal circumstance. On the other hand, Syclar, if the field can be kept clear of Stealth Rock, has considerable more bulk than Abra (not saying much, but still.)

Shelmet · Aug 30th, 2012, 2:18:28 PM

Final Submission:

I based this mostly on the growlithe/arcanine line.

This is my final spread, my process is below that:

35 / 81 / 35 / 79 / 34 / 91 (BST 355)

...

I decided to find the difference between growlithe and arcanine's stats. For HP, the difference was 35, so I subtracted 35 from Syclants HP stat and got 35. I did this for the rest of the stats and got this:

35 / 76 / 35 / 84 / 34 / 91

Everything seemed like Syclant's spread (which is what I was going for) except for special attack, since here the difference between Syclant's stats and Arcanine's start to mess up the rest of the spread. So here, I went with common sense and sort of replicated Syclant's stats right here into a Syclar-spread. Syclant has a slightly weaker special attack stat (as compared to its's atk stat. I put in the stat for sp.atk at 74; this is quite high and reflects Syclar's offensive potential. The speed stat may seem confusing to some, seeing how in my previous post I said that thing about scuttling vs. flying, but really it's quite simple. Syclant is fast, therefore Syclar must be fast as well. With 91 speed it outspends most of the threats in the LC metagame, like gastly, misdreavus, chinchou etc. However, it is still slower than abra, elekid, diglett and volt orb and the other top-of-the-tier pokemon. The reason for this is that Syclant has a lower base speed stat than those pokemon's evolved forms with the exception of electivire (electabuzz comes pretty close though). This is the spread we had at the end of all this.

35 / 76 / 35 / 74 / 34 / 91

The next thing to was make the BST, which is currently 345. I didn't want it to be exactly equivalent to growlithe's 350. 350-345is 5, but I decided to add 5 more, so i needed to raise one stat by 10, or two stats by 5 each (anything else is unnecessarily complicated). I could boost Syclar's speed to make him pretty much the second fastest pokemon in LC, but that seemed unreasonable. I decided that the best thing to do was simply beef up Syclars attack and special attack stats. Giving Syclar more bulk completely defeats the purpose of a fast, frail sweeper (seeing how I'm modeling it after Syclant). We want to give it great attacking and speed stats, to make Syclar worth using, while giving it a certain risk factor. So I added 5 to each of Syclar's attacking stats.

35 / 81 / 35 / 79 / 34 / 91 (BST 355)

As said by Nyktos,

Quote:

One thing to note is that Syclant has several stats not divisible by 5; in cases where this happens, the prevo's stats in the same areas are usually also off by the same amount. So precedent would have Syclar, like Syclant, with HP and Defense multiples of 5, Attack and Speed 1 more than multiples of 5, and Special Attack and Special Defense 1 less than multiples of 5.

So, the defense and HP stat are multiples of 5, and attack and speed one more than the nearest multiple of 5, and the special attack and special defense are one less than the nearest multiple of 5.

So, as you can see, this spread logistically and technically makes sense, and is reminiscent of Syclant, as it's prevo should be. I suck at conclusions, so um.. yeah.

Ok so I fixed the stuff that EM said.

***Birkal**** · Aug 30th, 2012, 6:08:13 PM

Consider this your (rough) 24 hour warning. Remember, if you want feedback on your spread, join us on IRC in the #cap channel! Plenty of CAP regulars frequent that channel, so you can chat with them instantly. I'm liking what I see so far; keep up the great work!

**Elevator Music** · Aug 30th, 2012, 7:47:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Shelmet

The speed stat may seem confusing to some, but really it's quite simple. Syclant is fast, therefore Syclar must be fast as well. With 86 speed it outspends most of the threats in the LC metagame, like gastly, misdreavus, chinchou etc. However, it is still slower than abra, elekid, diglett and volt orb and the other top-of-the-tier pokemon.

This part isn't accurate :(. With 86 Speed, Syclar will max its Speed at 19, which ties with Misdreavus and Abra (who also both max at 19). It will still be outsped by Elekid/Diglett/Voltorb, though of those 3 Diglett isn't the only really relevant one (Elekid is also somewhat common but not particularly good). Not that any of this really matters heh.

I do like your spread though (along with a few others in this thread)

Annaa · Aug 30th, 2012, 10:31:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Shelmet

Final Submission:

I based this mostly on growlithe/arcanine line.

This is my final spread, my process is below that:

35 / 81 / 35 / 79 / 34 / 86 (BST 350)

...

Great!

Shelmet · Aug 30th, 2012, 10:46:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Elevator Music

This part isn't accurate :(. With 86 Speed, Syclar will max its Speed at 19, which ties with Misdreavus and Abra (who also both max at 19). It will still be outsped by Elekid/Diglett/Voltorb, though of those 3 Diglett isn't the only really relevant one (Elekid is also somewhat common but not particularly good). Not that any of this really matters heh.

I do like your spread though (along with a few others in this thread)

Fixed.

Thanks Annaa and EM :)

DetroitLolcat · Aug 31st, 2012, 5:41:24 PM

I don't see Syclar as a viable LC Pokemon based on the sprite and abilities. It's a tiny little bug, and not an intimidating one at that. It's designed to be a baby ant, as it's not a Mountaineer and hides in the snow for protection. Syclar looks to me to be a rather weak Pokemon that evolves into a monster a la Magikarp/Gyarados or Shroomish/Breloom or Tentacool/Tentacruel, etc. but not to such a large extent. Syclar does not look like a particularly strong or fast Pokemon, so I would rather it have low stats. I chose a low Speed stat because it doesn't even look like a fast Pokemon. It scuttles, but it looks a bit clunky (not knocking the design, I'm just using it to justify why it should be slow) and doesn't look sleek/quick like some Pokemon like Durant do. Syclar looks like a large, slow bug not a tiny little speedster.

45 HP / 53 Atk / 39 Def / 50 SpA / 34 SDef / 54 Spe is what I envision Syclar's stats to be. The BST is [b]275[b], just under half of Syclant's.

Eagle4 · Aug 31st, 2012, 6:09:41 PM

Final Submission

46/65/43/50/38/35
I might have unintentionally ripped off DetroitLolcat's stats...
But yeah, I agree, Scylar looks weak and therefore should have poor stats. The BST is 277, which is weak but not too weak, as it still has some offense, physically. It's defences are poor, which relates to Scylant, but the main difference is its speed. As I mentioned in this thread earlier, Scylar looks really slow compared to Scylant. What is faster, scuttling, or flying? The reason Scylar becomes so fast when evolving is because it gains wings, without wings, it's just another slow bug type.

Aug 29th, 2012, 11:37:11 AM	#3
*Vader OG dickhead Super Moderator** Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,168 and always fly towards the sun	100 speed is not realistic for a prevo. voltorb is the only one with 100 base speed and he has the highest base speed, followed by elekid and diglett at 95 each. 83-91 range makes 19 speed with full EVs, but I feel like 75-80, which is Gastly/Anorith speed and tops out at 18, would make more sense. __________________

Aug 29th, 2012, 12:03:21 PM	#4
Eagle4 Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 908 Avatar by the awesome Magistrum!	55/80/50/80/45/70 would be my suggestion. A middle balance of stats compared to Scylant, and still some damaging special attack. The reason its speed is lower than what most people would expect is that Scylar looks slower than Scylant by a mile. Scylar is at its "needs wings" period which would increase the speed considerably. Flying or scuttling? I know which one's faster... __________________ My favourite pokemon grid

Aug 29th, 2012, 12:09:35 PM	#5
Elevator Music there is actually no underscore in my name Moderator Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 5,444	This might not be the most helpful thing, but it's probably better than nothing so I'm going to include it. It's not really the stats themselves that matter, more the base stats, but this is for all the people wondering what your spread translates to at level 5. The formula for stats at level 5 are the following: HP: (((2 x Base + IV + (EV / 4)) x 5 / 100 + 15) Other stats: ((((2 x Base + IV + (EV / 4)) x 5 / 100 + 5) x Nature) Base is the base stat IV is the IV value (just use 31 for a start) EV is the number of EVs invested (just use 0 for a start) Nature is 1 for a neutral nature, 1.1 for a positive nature, and 0.9 for a negative nature (just use 1 for a start) (Note: after every division, the total is rounded down.) Once you've looked at the stats with 31 IV, 0 EVs, and a neutral nature, its easy to figure out everything else. On that note, my advice for figuring out a believable stat spread is to look at examples of prevos, especially the families of Pokemon we think resemble the Syclant family. Look at how much the base stats change, and figure out believable jumps. The final stats aren't so important (as we don't care how competitive Syclar is), so do your best to figure out a spread that seems true to the game. __________________

Aug 29th, 2012, 1:14:01 PM	#7
Eagle4 Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 908 Avatar by the awesome Magistrum!	Can I say that if we want Scylar to represent and be similar to Scylant, a higher speed is needed, say... 80-95. Very few pokemon have a speed of 121, so Scylar, if people want it to be similar, needs a speedy stat. However, if people, like myself, want Scylar to differ to Scylant due to the appearance, etc, then a speed should be in a lower region. __________________ My favourite pokemon grid

Aug 29th, 2012, 1:42:21 PM	#8
jas61292 likes his numbers Moderator Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,241 Strong as a Corsola	This is ~~not necessarily~~ final ~~yet, but right now what I am thinking.~~ 35 HP / 66 Atk / 35 Def / 64 SpA / 29 SpD / 76 Spe Which would produce little cup stats (with neutral nature and no EVs) of 20 / 13 / 10 / 12 / 9 / 14 Now, you might be thinking that those stats look somewhat low, and yes, yes they are. Its a BST of 305, which is 250 points below that of Syclant. However, I think such a drop in stats is necessary. No Pokemon outside of Arcanine has as high a BST as Syclant while having only one prevo, and while originally, I was going to try and base the stats off of Growlithe, every spread I could come up with with Growlite's 350 BST just seemed too strong or too bulky. So I took a slightly different approach with this and started by laying out a few rules that I wanted to follow with this spread. The most important of these rules was that I wanted the differences between the offensive stats and between the defensive stats to remain unchanged. While offenses and defenses as a whole may change relative to each other, I wanted the close but not exactly the same offenses and defenses to stay as they were. Doing this was fairly easy, I just had to chop off the same amount from each offensive stat and the same amount from each defensive stat. Now, while there is incredible variation in how stats change upon evolution, I decided that it would be necessary to decrease the offenses more than the defenses. This means that while the offenses still remain significantly higher than the defenses, it is neither ridiculously powerful, nor obscenely frail (well, sorta, at least). Another thing I wanted to accomplish with this spread was to emphasize the physical nature of Syclar. In my opinion, while Syclar should be offensive minded in all ways, it just seems like more of a physical monster to me than special. However, as I said before, I felt that it should keep its offensive stats very close to each other like Syclant. So, my goal was to make it so that, while the Attack and Sp. Attack stay only two points off, this difference should amount to an actual stat point differential in little cup play. Now, this was actually very easy, as by simply making the reduction of offensive stats from Syclant a multiple of ten, the base stats would straddle a multiple of five, making Attack that single point better, despite the very close base stats. The third thing I considered was keeping the Base Stat Total a multiple of five. While not a hard rule, to my knowledge, of all two stage evolutionary lines, only two Pokemon with BSTs that are multiples of 5 have prevos who's BSTs are not multiples of 5. And, of these two lines (Vulpix and Woobat), only one existed in gen 4 when Syclant was created. As such, I feel it would be best to follow this convention. With these three conditions satisfied, all that I really had left to do was determine exactly where the stats would sit. I had a general outline, but I could add or subtract 10 from each offensive stat or 5 from each defensive stat and still fulfill everything I wanted. The first thing I wanted to decided on was the speed. Like Vader said above, I feel that Syclar should probably be in the same speed range as Anorith, which, in accordance with what I laid out above, meant a stat of 76. And with that set, to satisfy all the conditions the offenses were set at 66 and 64, respectively. For the defenses, on the other hand, I didn't have particular goal in mind for. So I decided to pick a BST, and then set the defenses in order to achieve it. As I mentioned already, I felt that the kind of BST you might expect to evolve into Syclant would be too strong for Syclar, so I chose one that was the same as some Pokemon that I believed it should be more on par with, such as Venonat and Shelmet. And, with that set, the defenses fell into place. I feel this spread captures the similarity of Syclar and its evolution, while recognizing that Syclar does not have ridiculous all around power on its own. __________________ <Kadew> jas isn't boring <Kadew> he's excitementally challenged Last edited by jas61292; Aug 30th, 2012 at 1:57:25 PM.

Aug 29th, 2012, 8:54:41 AM	#2
SpecsX Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 372 Starfing with Harvest	Since no one else seems to have an opinion, I'll suggest a spread: 50/85/50/85/40/100 Looking up the mons listed, this seemed cose to what happens with the Joltik/Growlithe lines: not too big of a difference in stats, just a middling decrease. I don't know how these stats translate into LC.

Aug 29th, 2012, 12:57:36 PM	#6
Shelmet Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 97 choicespecs emolga	I'm going to say 50 / 80 / 55 / 80 / 45 / 75 50 / 55 / 45 defenses seem to represent but not replicate Syclants frailishness (wtf right) 80 Atk and SpAtk is a good show of offense and 75 speed is near the top of the tier, but I'm also taking into consideration Eagle's scuttle/fly thought. Syclant was meant to be frail and fast, so Syclar should also be fittingly fast, but not too fast.

Aug 29th, 2012, 3:10:46 PM	#9
Espeon65 Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 791 Akron, Ohio	i was thinking 50/75/45/65/40/80...basically just a smaller, weaker version of syclant. __________________ CAP Anime Style Battling!

Aug 29th, 2012, 5:11:53 PM	#11
Nyktos Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 314 Looking For You	One thing to note is that Syclant has several stats not divisible by 5; in cases where this happens, the prevo's stats in the same areas are usually also off by the same amount. So precedent would have Syclar, like Syclant, with HP and Defense multiples of 5, Attack and Speed 1 more than multiples of 5, and Special Attack and Special Defense 1 less than multiples of 5.

Aug 29th, 2012, 5:20:44 PM	#12
*Birkal We have the technology. Super Moderator** Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 2,960 The Mentor	While I don't mind the current layout, please recall that you need to label your finalized submission as a Final Submission. Make sure that your post lists some reasoning and explanation; I won't take any submissions that are "stand alone" and convey no content. Look in this thread if you need some ideas on how to do that. Thankee! __________________

Aug 29th, 2012, 6:45:53 PM	#13
uxsee Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 99 Arizona	Final Submission: 53/76/53/72/36/87 How I Got These Stats: BST I first started out by finding a list of all Stage 2 Bug and Ice Types (and Arcanine) and came up with this: ... Beartic Froslass Glalie Jynx Cloyster Weavile Abomasnow Kricketune Vespiquen Accelgor Parasect Venomoth Yanmega Scizor Forretress Wormadam Crustle Escavalier Volcarona Ledian Masquerain Galvantula Armaldo Arcanine I then made this list more relevant to Syclant by only including pokemon with a BST of 475 of more and had a BST change and it was reduced to this list: ... Beartic Froslass Glalie Cloyster Weavile Abomasnow Accelgor Yanmega Crustle Escavalier Volcarona Armaldo Arcanine I then looked up the BST of all of the pokemon and their pre-evolutions and subtracted the final evolutions' from the pre-evolution: ... Beartic- 180 Froslass- 180 Glalie- 180 Cloyster- 220 Weavile- 110 Abomasnow- 150 Accelgor- 190 Yanmega- 125 Crustle- 150 Escavalier- 180 Volcarona- 190 Armaldo- 140 Arcanine- 205 I then found the average of all of the differences of BST in each type: ... Ice- 166.5 Bug- 162.5 Arcanine- 205 I then averaged all of the averages of the difference of BST for each type and subtracted it from Syclant's BST: ... Average- 178 555-178= 377 This resulted in Sylcar's BST being 377. Actual Stats: 1.)I first found the the actual stats of all of the pre-evolutions to the pokemon from the BST and averaged the pokemon from their types: ... Ice- 52.5/64.5/58/49.5/53/55 Bug- 52.5/71/60/46/19/61 Growlithe- 55/70/45/70/50/60 I then averaged the averages of the types and found out how much of a stat increase it needed to undergo in order for the BST to be 377: ... 53/69/54/55/51/58 Needs: 37 2.) I first re-did the averages for the Ice because the Snorunt evolves into both froslass and glalie, who are both on the list. The only thing I did different was add another Snorunt and divide by seven instead of 6. ... 53/68/54/55/51/58 I then found the averages of all of the stats of the final evolutions for their types. ... Ice- 75/88/79/69/74/76 Bug- 77/93/87/89/82/72 Arcanine- 90/110/80/100/80/95 I then took the average of these three stats and subtracted the averages of the stats from the first evolution: ... (81/97/82/86/79/81) - (53/68/54/55/51/58) = 28/29/28/31/28/23 3.) I first subtracted the difference from the average stats of the pre and final evolution and found how much it needs to lose in order to have a BST of 377: ... (70/116/70/114/64/121) - (28/29/28/31/28/23) = 42/87/42/83/36/98 Needs to lose: 11 I then subtracted each attacking stat by 11 and found how much it needed to gain: ... 42/76/42/72/36/87 Needs: 22 I, finally, changed the HP and Defense stat to 53 in order to make the BST 377 and to match the HP stat created by the averaging of pre-evolution BST's and subtracted the defense stat by one in order to make it 377 and match the HP stat (similar to Syclant) ... 53/76/53/72/36/87 __________________ If you buy one completo, it's only one dollar. BUT, if you buy two completos, it's only two dollars. BUT, if you buy three completos, it's only three dollars. BUT, if you buy four completos, it's only four dollars... Do you like my three buts? Last edited by uxsee; Aug 31st, 2012 at 6:01:14 PM.

Aug 29th, 2012, 7:14:13 PM	#14
Imanalt RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON RHYDON Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,346 VT, USA	Final Submission so, im working off comparing syclant purely to arcanine to start with: syclant has stats of 70 / 116 / 70 / 114 / 64 / 121, compared to arcanine's 90/110/80/100/80/95 so syclant has about 10% better attacking stats, and 20% worse defensive stats, with the rest made up for in speed. Now looking at growlithe, it has 55/70/45/70/50/60. Taking 20% off each of these defensive stats gives about 45/40/34 bulk stats if we adapt them to closer to syclants balance. adding our 10% to each offense gives us about 77 attacking stats, which i then adapted to follow syclant's pattern in relation to multiples of 5. so right now were looking at 45/76/40/74/34/X. To get the same BST as growlithe, we then need 81 speed, giving us a spread of 45 / 76 / 40 / 74 / 34 / 81 __________________ ASB profile zfs: we are the knights who say nidoking http://pastebin.com/FrNB3Vg3 21:15 Cathy GreatSage is a known spammer Last edited by Imanalt; Aug 30th, 2012 at 8:33:18 AM.

Aug 29th, 2012, 8:29:43 PM	#15
Nyktos Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 314 Looking For You	I too used Growlithe as my inspiration. I basically started by simply multiplying each of Syclant's stats by 350 / 555 and rounded to get a spread of 44/73/44/72/40/76 (BST 349). From there I tweaked: - I made each stat the correct distance from a multiple of 5, like I talked about in my previous post. - I decided that Syclar doesn't look like a powerful physical attacker, so I reduced its Attack and boosted its Special Attack to bias it a bit to that end. (Enough so that it has 1 point more in Special Attack in LC.) - I raised Speed to made sure it was the highest base stat, as it was in Syclant. - I lowered the defenses since the BST had grown a bit high in all this, keeping in mind also the precedent that lower evolutions tend to be more offensively-biased. I ended up with a spread of 45 / 66 / 35 / 79 / 29 / 86 (BST 340).

Aug 29th, 2012, 11:30:28 PM	#16
DraconicWolf Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 13 Canada	My numbers are: 40/76/35/84/29/86. The thoughts behind them are rather long winded, so I'll hide them for those of you who don't care. ... 1) Emulate example lines. Growlithe/Arcanine has differences of 35/40/35/30/30/35. When the same differences are applied to Syclant, Syclar's base stats look like 35/76/35/84/34/86. If you do the same with the differences for Joltik/Galvantula Syclar has 50/86/60/74/54/78 for base stats. 2) Average the emulations. The two sets of base stats average out to about 43/81/48/79/44/82. 3) Get the base stats the correct distance from multiples of 5. Most Pokemon maintain the distances from multiples of 5 in their stats when they evolve. The averaged stats have distances of -2/+1/-2/-1/-1/+2, while Syclant's are 0/+1/0/-1/-1/+1. If you shave off stats to get them to the correct distances you get 40/81/45/79/44/81. 4) Look at the thing. I personally can't imagine Syclar physically attacking anything, so the fact that its attack was higher than its special attack just seems wrong. It does evolve into Syclant though, so I'm not going to kill its attack. My solution was to decrease its attack by five and increase its special attack by 5. This leads to a spread of 40/76/45/84/44/81. 5) Adjust Syclant's defence is not higher than its HP. 40/76/40/84/44/81. Syclant's speed is it's highest stat. 40/76/40/84/44/86. Syclant's defence is 6 points higher than its special defence. 40/76/40/84/34/86. 6) BST At this point the spread has a BST of 360. 10 points less and it'd be on par with Growlithe, which is where I want it to be. Take five points out of defence and special defence for 40/76/35/84/29/86, with a BST of 350. --- For those wondering why I only used Growlithe/Arcanine and Joltik/Galvantula as examples here's why. Of all the example lines that popped up in the overview only those two work. Anorith actually loses 30 base speed when it evolves, so factoring it into the equation leaves the average stage with 105 base speed, which is insane. Karrablast/Escavalier leaves you with the same problem, albeit on a smaller scale, because it maintains its base speed when it evolves. Finally, Shelmet loses defences when it becomes Accelgor, which makes Syclar altogether too bulky. Last edited by DraconicWolf; Aug 31st, 2012 at 8:49:04 PM.

Aug 30th, 2012, 10:42:23 AM	#17
bugmaniacbob Fare thee well. Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 2,038 Floccinaucinihilipilification	Zzz Everybody seems to be putting so much effort into these Anyway I was bored so... I took a leaf out of Arcanine's book and just subtracted 40 from all of Syclant's stats, hence 30 / 86 / 30 / 84 / 24 / 91 I then made the defensive stats equal and added a bit to Attack while taking the damage out of Special Attack since I can't see Syclar using special attacks at all (I mean, at least Syclant has those sort of laser arm things) so I got 35 / 96 / 30 / 68 / 30 / 91 BST 350 etc. __________________ Art / C&C / The Smog / Longest Ever Analysis MkI / Longest Ever Analysis MkII / Warstories / Stupid Poem / CAP 4: Aurumoth

Aug 30th, 2012, 11:20:05 AM	#18
srk1214 Supreme Master of Trivia Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 807	FINAL SUBMISSION I haven't the time to read through every spread, so I apologize if this is similar to those before mine. Modeled-ish after Archen, except switched for Special oriented. 70 / 116 / 70 / 114 / 64 / 121 (total: 555) goes to: 45 / 66 / 50 / 99 / 44 / 86 (total: 390) ranges - 21 24 - 11 13 16 17 9 11 14 15 13 14 19 20 9 10 14 15 13 15 18 19 Built primarily this way specifically on flavor reasons of matching divisibilities of base stats while also reflecting the art and intention of the prevo. To me removing Mountaineer from Syclar implied to me a level of physical bad-assery only attained upon evolution to Syclant. Syclar look to me like they either can't attack at all, or can attack like a boss Specially. Because we retained Compoundeyes, I chose the latter. A high BST of the evolution generally predicates a high BST for the prevo. Since Syclar no longer has Syclant's Mountaineer, it is far far far harder to use. If we do want Syclar to be competitively viable, I feel a strong necessity is special sweepiness. Speed and Special Attack of 86 and 99 respectively leave Syclar beaten out only by Abra. However, Abra is a Psychic type weak to offensive Dark types' Pursuits and Sucker punches and also to Vullaby's stalling. (Also it dies to a Splash from Magikarp.) No more with Syclar! Syclar instead fires off compoundeyes-boosted STAB blizzards in faces. Of course, this is a trade off. While Syclar can use Blizzard to beat Vullaby, it's repelled by Munchlax's Thick Fat and Frillish's typing. And with too low of an Attack stat to make a dent, Syclar will not best Munchlax or Frillish under any normal circumstance. On the other hand, Syclar, if the field can be kept clear of Stealth Rock, has considerable more bulk than Abra (not saying much, but still.) __________________ Best. Match. Ever. http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou11554542 To see the other best match ever, go to DetroitLolcat's signature. Last edited by srk1214; Aug 31st, 2012 at 5:59:06 PM. Reason: my spelling was atrocious

Aug 30th, 2012, 6:08:13 PM	#20
*Birkal We have the technology. Super Moderator** Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 2,960 The Mentor	Consider this your (rough) 24 hour warning. Remember, if you want feedback on your spread, join us on IRC in the #cap channel! Plenty of CAP regulars frequent that channel, so you can chat with them instantly. I'm liking what I see so far; keep up the great work! __________________

Aug 31st, 2012, 5:41:24 PM	#24
DetroitLolcat It's Great! To Be! A Michigan Wolverine! Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,795	I don't see Syclar as a viable LC Pokemon based on the sprite and abilities. It's a tiny little bug, and not an intimidating one at that. It's designed to be a baby ant, as it's not a Mountaineer and hides in the snow for protection. Syclar looks to me to be a rather weak Pokemon that evolves into a monster a la Magikarp/Gyarados or Shroomish/Breloom or Tentacool/Tentacruel, etc. but not to such a large extent. Syclar does not look like a particularly strong or fast Pokemon, so I would rather it have low stats. I chose a low Speed stat because it doesn't even look like a fast Pokemon. It scuttles, but it looks a bit clunky (not knocking the design, I'm just using it to justify why it should be slow) and doesn't look sleek/quick like some Pokemon like Durant do. Syclar looks like a large, slow bug not a tiny little speedster. 45 HP / 53 Atk / 39 Def / 50 SpA / 34 SDef / 54 Spe is what I envision Syclar's stats to be. The BST is [b]275[b], just under half of Syclant's. __________________ Favorite Pokemon-Swampert- formerly OU and staying that way. Cats are awesome, the best kind of cat is the Detroit Lion! http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou11556879 Last edited by DetroitLolcat; Aug 31st, 2012 at 7:25:10 PM.

Aug 31st, 2012, 6:09:41 PM	#25
Eagle4 Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 908 Avatar by the awesome Magistrum!	Final Submission 46/65/43/50/38/35 I might have unintentionally ripped off DetroitLolcat's stats... But yeah, I agree, Scylar looks weak and therefore should have poor stats. The BST is 277, which is weak but not too weak, as it still has some offense, physically. It's defences are poor, which relates to Scylant, but the main difference is its speed. As I mentioned in this thread earlier, Scylar looks really slow compared to Scylant. What is faster, scuttling, or flying? The reason Scylar becomes so fast when evolving is because it gains wings, without wings, it's just another slow bug type. __________________ My favourite pokemon grid