(All Gens) The Most Dominant Pokemon in History - #9-10 Position Debate

[Jorgen]

Raikou for #9, Blissey for #10 is my opinion atm. Raikou is top 3 in GSC, can't leave something like that out of this list.

Blissey, on the other hand, has always had a constant presence, at least starting in ADV, that forced offenses to plan around it. In GSC it doesn't really matter since Snorlax, Raikou, and Miltank are everywhere anyway, but ADV onward it definitely shapes the metagame.

Sorry Forry/Cloy, your Spikes are nice but you're not that great.

[Borat]

From the sound of it, raikou/blissey are both OU in 2 gens and BL in one (stretch BL, but bl nonetheless). How is perennial 4 gens of OU dragonite not ousting them?

And if we're speaking not in terms of consistency, but in terms of dominance, Egg has 2 top 3s under its belt. Either egg or dragonite is more deserving, depending on your criteria

[Asterat]

Dragonite was BL for gen 2 and gen 3 but I still think it deserves #9, with cloyster at #10. Leaving out raikou sucks but it was only top for 2 generations, really much less good in gen 4.

[Dre89]

It depends if you're talking about dominance historically or theoretically.

If wrap functioned on the old RBY simulators properly, and wrap had been the standard this whole time, then dragonite would have rivalled tauros as the "King of RBY" and would probably be an auto- entry on this list.

[Jorgen]

Originally Posted by Fat Borat

From the sound of it, raikou/blissey are both OU in 2 gens and BL in one (stretch BL, but bl nonetheless). How is perennial 4 gens of OU dragonite not ousting them?

And if we're speaking not in terms of consistency, but in terms of dominance, Egg has 2 top 3s under its belt. Either egg or dragonite is more deserving, depending on your criteria

Dragonite is hardly a "perennial" OU. It's historically BL in RBY and even now is still kind of seen as a gimmick, it's BL by name in GSC (and its OU power is very debatable), and it's been overshadowed by Mence in ADV and DPP. As a result, it's decisively BL in ADV and is only considered a top-tier OU threat in recent DPP now that all the better dragons are banned.

As for Egg, there's a far better argument for him. Basically mandatory on an RBY team, and a top-tier offensive threat in GSC. I think the biggest points against it are 1) its extremely sharp drop-off after GSC, which I'd say hurts it enough to be worse than just not existing for two generations; and 2) the variance of its performance in GSC that makes its position as a "top 5" quite debatable.

Say what you will about Blissey being nothing more than setup bait, but it's a known quantity in every match and the best at what it does. Offenses NEED to have a way to deal with it to be successful in ADV and DPP (it's basically an automatic member of most stall teams in these generations), and it was good enough in early GSC to make SkarmBliss a thing (and a moderately successful thing at that), even if the modern bias toward offense in GSC would lead you toward thinking it's total shit (which it isn't, that's hyperbole and you know it).

I'm going to expand on my decision of Raikou at #9; basically, imo it is a shoe-in for that slot. It's got top 3 status in GSC, is one of the most fearsome sweepers of ADV, and is apparently still pretty good in DPP. It doesn't have Eggy's severe drop-off; its peak is way more impressive than Blissey's (Blissey was always just kind of there, never outright defining a metagame but constantly shaping it in some way); and I'm not even going to dignify Dragonite because the fat dragon has no business on this list. Other things it could compare to include Jirachi, which Kou matches or surpasses in peak dominance and which Kou has beat on generation count; Forretress, which has always been a one-trick pony and not even necessarily the best at its job (just the most specialized); and Cloyster, which people seem inclined to dignify like Dragonite even though it faces an Egg-like drop-off in usefulness without ever really being as good as Egg was in RBY/GSC.

I'm more open to #10. However, on the surface, it feels wrong not to include Blissey, but I feel like that's in part because it has the stats and movepool to make it the perennial go-to special wall for generations to come, and not just because of its performance in GSC-DPP. That being said, the only real competitors I see for Blissey's slot are Jirachi and Forretress. Mayyybe Salamence too, although on second thought not really because it's kind of average in RSE whereas its dominance in DPP was very brief and the result of a metagame where tiering decisions were constantly in flux. As for other things people are bringing up, Egg's drop-off is too severe and everything else was never good enough to begin with.

[Dre89]

But with wrap dragonite would have rivalled tauros in terms of dominance.

I'm not talking about 'get it in on something sleeping straight away and set up' play. I'm talking about 'get rid of gengar and rocks, keep it hidden for end-game when they don't have enough HP to stall it' kind of play.

[Awoken]

Still of the opinion that Blissey should be over Raikou. IMO:
GSC Raikou is #3, Blissey is top 20
ADV Raikou is top 20, Blissey is #6
DPP Raikou is top 40-50, Blissey is top 20, maybe higher

[Jellicent*]

I'm starting to lean mostly towards Jirachi for the number 9 spot. I know it seems a bit odd to include something that didn't exist until ADV, but hear me out.

There are quite a few names being dropped for Pokemon that shone in 2 gens (Dragonite, Raikou, Exeggutor) but failed to really dominate one or two other gens. Jirachi has been fantastic its entire existence. I think a Pokemon that has consistently dominated since its inception is a better pick for this than something that existed longer, dominated the same length of time, but also flopped during its existence. We're looking for the most dominant in history and I think its important to keep in mind a Pokemon's entire history, not just its crowning achievements.

As for the two generations it existed, Jirachi is a top five Pokemon in both. I'd go so far as to argue that it's the best Pokemon in DPP OU. It not only has the versatility to function in a wide range of roles and in every playstyle, but it is also superb in each of these roles. CM sweeper? Revenge killer? Support? Scout? It's the glue that holds a huge number of teams together, regardless of how its being used. There's not really a hard counter to Jirachi, as it can beat any of its "counters" depending on what set it's running. Each set has counters, but nothing beats them all.

Despite only existing in 2 generations, it's an easy top 5 in both and I think it'd be a shame to ignore it. I've already made my arguments for Blissey, and that's got my vote for #10 right now.

[Awoken]

Jellicent, if we use your idea of basing this list on a Pokemon's entire history, this list would need to be completely restructured. IIRC, the main reason Snorlax beat out Tyranitar for #1 was that it actually existed in Gen 1. Also, this is extremely biased toward dominant newer-gen Pokemon; why not Heatran at #1 then?

Going to nitpick about a lot of things people say about Gen 3, so apologies in advance. Jirachi is far from top 5 in ADV. It'd give it maybe top 12? Jirachi just isn't as consistent game to game as things like Tyranitar, Gengar, Celebi, Suicune, Snorlax, Blissey, Zapdos, Salamence, Swampert, Skarmory, etc. and doesn't really add much defensively to a team. Both the offensive CM Superachi set and the traditional CM Wish Jirachi are also quite susceptible to Dugtrio, a pretty bad weakness to have in ADV (Tyranitar and Celebi can deal with it because they're just that good).

[Borat]

IIRC, the main reason Snorlax beat out Tyranitar for #1 was that it actually existed in Gen 1.

Nope. The main reason snorlax won is because gsc snorlax is better than ANY pokemon in ANY generation.

[Crystal_]

I think Gen 1 + Gen 2 Snorlax already beats anything else

[Jellicent*]

Originally Posted by Fat Awoken

Jellicent, if we use your idea of basing this list on a Pokemon's entire history, this list would need to be completely restructured. IIRC, the main reason Snorlax beat out Tyranitar for #1 was that it actually existed in Gen 1. Also, this is extremely biased toward dominant newer-gen Pokemon; why not Heatran at #1 then?

Originally Posted by Fat Jellicent

I think a Pokemon that has consistently dominated since its inception is a better pick for this than something that existed longer, dominated the same length of time, but also flopped during its existence.

I think you missed that part...

[Borat]

Originally Posted by Fat Jorgen

Dragonite is hardly a "perennial" OU. It's historically BL in RBY and even now is still kind of seen as a gimmick, it's BL by name in GSC (and its OU power is very debatable), and it's been overshadowed by Mence in ADV and DPP. As a result, it's decisively BL in ADV and is only considered a top-tier OU threat in recent DPP now that all the better dragons are banned.

As for Egg, there's a far better argument for him. Basically mandatory on an RBY team, and a top-tier offensive threat in GSC. I think the biggest points against it are 1) its extremely sharp drop-off after GSC, which I'd say hurts it enough to be worse than just not existing for two generations; and 2) the variance of its performance in GSC that makes its position as a "top 5" quite debatable.

Say what you will about Blissey being nothing more than setup bait, but it's a known quantity in every match and the best at what it does. Offenses NEED to have a way to deal with it to be successful in ADV and DPP (it's basically an automatic member of most stall teams in these generations), and it was good enough in early GSC to make SkarmBliss a thing (and a moderately successful thing at that), even if the modern bias toward offense in GSC would lead you toward thinking it's total shit (which it isn't, that's hyperbole and you know it).

I'm going to expand on my decision of Raikou at #9; basically, imo it is a shoe-in for that slot. It's got top 3 status in GSC, is one of the most fearsome sweepers of ADV, and is apparently still pretty good in DPP. It doesn't have Eggy's severe drop-off; its peak is way more impressive than Blissey's (Blissey was always just kind of there, never outright defining a metagame but constantly shaping it in some way); and I'm not even going to dignify Dragonite because the fat dragon has no business on this list. Other things it could compare to include Jirachi, which Kou matches or surpasses in peak dominance and which Kou has beat on generation count; Forretress, which has always been a one-trick pony and not even necessarily the best at its job (just the most specialized); and Cloyster, which people seem inclined to dignify like Dragonite even though it faces an Egg-like drop-off in usefulness without ever really being as good as Egg was in RBY/GSC.

I'm more open to #10. However, on the surface, it feels wrong not to include Blissey, but I feel like that's in part because it has the stats and movepool to make it the perennial go-to special wall for generations to come, and not just because of its performance in GSC-DPP. That being said, the only real competitors I see for Blissey's slot are Jirachi and Forretress. Mayyybe Salamence too, although on second thought not really because it's kind of average in RSE whereas its dominance in DPP was very brief and the result of a metagame where tiering decisions were constantly in flux. As for other things people are bringing up, Egg's drop-off is too severe and everything else was never good enough to begin with.

Right, the idea was to swing either the consistency argument, or the dominance. I'm much more in favor of exeggutor being a top 10, albeit I don't see how you can say dnite is "BL" in RBY, that's like saying alakazam is ou in gsc (i.e. historically). dnite is only "bl" in rby on the basis of inconsistent rulesets, but this is smogon. And dragonite, anyway you look at it, is a better pokemon than blissey in GSC.

I want to say exeggutor dominated 2 gens harder than any non-ttar/lax. You're not a favor of him, sure, but to say exeggutor is "questionably top 5" is a stretch. He's a "questionable top 3", with top 4 being a lock. I think zapdos has a firm grasp of 2, and while i still do slightly favor the consistency of raikou over exeggutor, you can definitely make a case for it at 3 as well.

exeggutor holds the same rankings in rby imo, a debatable "top 3", but a lock for top 4 imo.

and i think that any pokemon that's a bl or lower counts as a "does not exist". I don't think it should count AGAINST the pokemon.

[Crystal_]

I think the only way we can make a case for Blissey over Dragonite is if we count Blissey and Chansey as one. Otherwise look:

Gen 2 Dragonite >= Gen 2 Blissey
Gen 4 Dragonite > Gen 4 Blissey
Gen 1 Dragonite = Gen 3 Blissey

I think Raikou, Exeggutor, and the spikers are more deserving than Blissey as well.

I am with Borat on this:

and i think that any pokemon that's a bl or lower counts as a "does not exist". I don't think it should count AGAINST the pokemon.

On the other hand, it's probably unfair to utterly disrespect Chansey's status in RBY when talking about Blissey. Just saying. Maybe we can include Blissey in the top ten specifying that it made the list because RBY Chansey gave it a nudge.

[Hemp Man]

I'm not sure if I'd put Gen 4 Dragonite over Gen 4 Blissey. Gen 4 Blissey had to compete with the newly buffed up Tyranitar for role as Special Defense, but Dragonite basically spent 4th gen living in the shadow of Salamence until its banning.

[Golden Gyarados]

Originally Posted by Fat Crystal_

On the other hand, it's probably unfair to utterly disrespect Chansey's status in RBY when talking about Blissey. Just saying. Maybe we can include Blissey in the top ten specifying that it made the list because RBY Chansey gave it a nudge.

I haven't chimed in on this thread yet, but I am 100% in agreement with this - it's weird to "have" to ignore Chansey, and I think it's a nice compromise to give Blissey a little asterisk explaining the nudge (compromise in the sense that if we counted Chansey and Blissey together from the start the list might have shaken out differently, but at least nudging Blissey into 10 with an asterisk is the compromise).

[Borat]

A nudge/asterisk would be 11. i.e. honorable mention. Sir. And that's really what bliss/chan deserves.

[Golden Gyarados]

Originally Posted by Fat Borat

A nudge/asterisk would be 11. i.e. honorable mention. Sir. And that's really what bliss/chan deserves.

Even better idea, actually. Puts the Blissey debate to rest, allows us to focus elsewhere for the 9-10 spots, and respects Chansey from RBY. Can we agree on that and call it a day on Blissey?

[Dre89]

Originally Posted by Fat Golden Gyarados

I haven't chimed in on this thread yet, but I am 100% in agreement with this - it's weird to "have" to ignore Chansey, and I think it's a nice compromise to give Blissey a little asterisk explaining the nudge (compromise in the sense that if we counted Chansey and Blissey together from the start the list might have shaken out differently, but at least nudging Blissey into 10 with an asterisk is the compromise).

I honestly think it's werid that a thread about dominance ignores ubers, who are uber because of their dominance.

Arbitrarily removing some pokemon and then saying 'X is the most dominant pokemon' doesn't really make sense to me.

[kd24]

I mean I don't see how you can compare chansey with no special split to blissey with a special split and group them together at all. It'd be like saying togekiss has been garbage through the ages because togetic... no, togekiss didn't exist yet. If the mons were even slightly similar I might be inclined to agree but they are sooooo different.

And free raikou

[Dre89]

They're special walls that offer support. I don't think you really need to complicate it more than that.

[waterwizard]

Chansey/Blissey should be in the running for this top 10. Their extreme power in the first two gens and Blissey's enduring role as the ultimate special sponge earns them both spots in this list, especially if Starmie is ranked here...

Chansey was top three in RBY (2nd or 3rd), and Blissey was top- to mid-OU in every subsequent gen. Blissey is the continuation of Chansey until Gen 5 when Chansey became relevant again. They should be counted as one unit in gens 1-4, for the purposes of this rankings list.

Exeggutor is the best or second best pokemon in RBY, and was a tremendous threat in GSC as well, at least top five. Gen 3 Eggy is an offensive powerhouse. Insignificant in gen 4 but the first two gens should hold enough weight to keep him in this top 10.

I would also swap Starmie and Skarmory on that list. Starmie was 5-8 in RBY, and just a spinner thereafter. Not very significant. Certainly doesn't have the mythic status of Skarm/Bliss, etc.

EDIT: I feel like GSC players laud Snorlax with a grin on their face... "JIMP! Can't believe we got away with keeping Lax out of Ubers!

[Joim]

Chansey had a very, very important role in RBY, as well as being somewhat important in Gen 5 thanks to Eviolite. Blissey has been a premier Special wall too, and I'm too of the opinion they should count together for the list.

Exeggutor has been very important, moreso than Dragonite, and it deserves a top 10 position. Despite its underdog presence in gens 4 and 5 its early domination makes it worthy.

[Dre89]

I'd say that in RBY OU, tauros is top, chansey is second, and starmie exeggutor and snorlax probably all tie for third. If we're counting the wrap meta too, then starmie is probably ahead of the other two, and dragonite is probably up there as well.

From what I've heard blissey wasn't really that good in GSC because it was set-up bait for a lot of physical pokemon.

[MeowMixx]

Hi guys, I never really post here but I was directed to this particular subforum and this discussion looked really interesting so I'd like to weigh in.

I'm not really sure where it would fall in terms of 9th or 10th, but I feel like Salamence definitely deserves a spot somewhere on this list. Obviously it's a complete no-show in gens 1 and 2, but tf we're talking about dominant, metagame shaping forces then it's really hard to look past what Mence did in ADV and DPP.

Although bulky waters are already ubiquitous in ADV because of TTar, Salamence's is the reason that so much stuff is forced to carry Ice attacks instead of a difference coverage move. It's undoubtedly a top 10 Mon and possibly top 5, with a decent amount of versatility and a ton of raw power to boot. In early DP, it was almost definitely a top 3 mon due to DMeteor and the physical/special split, and in DPP it was the defining metagame force alongside Latias before it got thrown into ubers. Not really sure how much more dominant you can get in a gen.