np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 6 - Enter Sandman - Page 14

Melee Mewtwo · Sep 28th, 2012, 12:39:17 PM

I haven't seen anything of the sort Gato. I've actually been using Rough Skin SalacChomp (I don't want hax messing with the testing, we all know SV is broke on Chomp) and I'm impressed. It's pretty easy to get zone to take out that Skarm with a VoltTurn team and setting up a sweep on a Hippowdon switch-in is really sick.

Noob Asian · Sep 28th, 2012, 12:41:42 PM

While I was testing out Garchomp in Sand (using Sand Veil), I have noticed that it is a game changer, without skill involved. If you're designing to remove as much as possible to win a game (there'll always be luck in this game, but we can mitigate as much of it as possible) then abilities that increase evasion should probably stay banned. However I havent seen a reason not to drop Rough Skin Garchomp back to OU.

Here's a battle log with a Garchomp team vs my standard OU team
-If you wanna see the turn around point, it's at turn: 20, 23 and 24
http://pastebin.com/zr6xnBKm

pharaohcalvin · Sep 28th, 2012, 3:48:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat tehy

Isn't it kind of ridiculous to test a pokemon in such an environment? Everyone keeps saying that the metagame is tailored against him. If in ubers, everyone knew that the other team would be carrying a kyogre, then they'd run gastrodon and GG. Now, garchomp isn't walled quite so hard, but when you know that garchomp's going to be there so much more often than normal, then it costs you much less to carry a less-useful pokemon just for him (COUGH*WEAVILE*COUGH)

Agreeing with this statement. It is not really a fair test, because as Techy said, everyone wants to use the "new" fancy toy. That means odd this normally not used as much, Weavile and Brongzong are a lot safer to use, and seem a lot more useful.

SJCrew · Sep 28th, 2012, 4:30:25 PM

Extensive use of Garchomp and its counters is exactly what this test is aiming to achieve. The only thing non-suspect environments do for a Pokemon we're trying to gauge is allow people to bring up bullshit arguments about usage (something I think we can all agree should be avoided).

This is Garchomp at its full potential. The nigh unanimous consensus is that he can beat each and every one of his checks through Evasion. Backpocket Weaviles and Bronzongs becoming common don't particularly matter if the results remain the same.

Ginku · Sep 28th, 2012, 4:56:14 PM

I don't see how chomp getting specific attention even matters considering that it still dominates...

Danger Mouse · Sep 28th, 2012, 6:55:36 PM

Well, it sucks to have to get my rating back up when I was so. Damn. Close. But it's not the fault of smogon, it's the fault of the douchebag who DDOS'd the server. Of course, now I probably won't even get close, but I'll try my hardest. :)
In response to what others have said, I think that this environment is perfect for testing Chomp's potential...after all, won't we get the best idea of his impact in an environment where everybody is trying him, and trying to find ways to beat him? I have to say, he's one hell of a good pokemon, I think his rough skin incarnation would be very healthy for the meta.

pharaohcalvin · Sep 28th, 2012, 7:09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Danger Mouse

Well, it sucks to have to get my rating back up when I was so. Damn. Close. But it's not the fault of smogon, it's the fault of the douchebag who DDOS'd the server. Of course, now I probably won't even get close, but I'll try my hardest. :)
In response to what others have said, I think that this environment is perfect for testing Chomp's potential...after all, won't we get the best idea of his impact in an environment where everybody is trying him, and trying to find ways to beat him? I have to say, he's one hell of a good pokemon, I think his rough skin incarnation would be very healthy for the meta.

If everyone uses him, teams will over prepare for him, and other threats won't get used. That is the problem, because you don't get a true look at a Chomp-Meta. :/

**PK Gaming** · Sep 28th, 2012, 8:50:25 PM

I disagree

I still see a good amount of teams that don't even bother with Garchomp, or in other cases teams that rely on Garchomp on HO teams. (as a simple replacement to Haxorus / Dnite or whatever.) It's not like EVERYONE IS GOING OUT OF THERE WAY to check Garchomp, because most well built teams have it checked by default (it's really not that hard to counter.)

This is as good you're ever going to get for a "regular meta w/ Garchomp." The only thing that players are "trying" to overprepare for is Sand Veil, and it's futile endeavour.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Noob Asian

While I was testing out Garchomp in Sand (using Sand Veil), I have noticed that it is a game changer, without skill involved. If you're designing to remove as much as possible to win a game (there'll always be luck in this game, but we can mitigate as much of it as possible) then abilities that increase evasion should probably stay banned. However I havent seen a reason not to drop Rough Skin Garchomp back to OU.

Here's a battle log with a Garchomp team vs my standard OU team
-If you wanna see the turn around point, it's at turn: 20, 23 and 24
http://pastebin.com/zr6xnBKm

Yeah there wasn't anything you could do about that.

Stone RG · Sep 28th, 2012, 10:42:22 PM

PK, let me change your affirmation that HO teams have chomp checked by default a little bit, 99% of teams have Garchomp checked (not coutnered) by default, because of Genesect, who we already know is the new #1 in OU, which is always seen on balanced/offensive (hell even stall can use gene to rack up hazards damage), while stall ALWAYS runs skarm, and it will feel with no reason not to in chomp meta.

Also, i must say once again i dont really agree that only chomp is broken with Sand Veil, since all users of it can get a fee turn as long as sand is up, which is unacceptable in a desirable metagame. And Rough Skin has already showed itself as harmless for the balanced metag we want, so theres no reason not to ban SV.

Btw, do we have to send a PM to a mod with our ranking reaching the conditions? if we have someone tell me, i thought we only had to post it here.

BurningMan · Sep 29th, 2012, 5:05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Stone RG

Btw, do we have to send a PM to a mod with our ranking reaching the conditions? if we have someone tell me, i thought we only had to post it here.

You have to send it to an OU council member all of them can be found here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/announc...hp?f=203&a=277

taxi driver · Sep 29th, 2012, 8:38:43 PM

made reqs as Find A Way

http://s1310.photobucket.com/albums/...ps0bc8e7cc.png

SV chomp is broken but RS is OU and good for the meta. Only question is on how to ban sand veil chomp but thats up for the council to decide.

chaos 9 · Sep 30th, 2012, 9:20:32 PM

Is there a write in to vote this time around? Because I've been in a HUGE ladder slump. I've gotten to 1800+ with like 5 alts and I've logged well over 10 hours on the suspect ladder. I believe I have a very good view of chomp despite being denied the 1900 multiple times. I'll keep trying until the deadline but I feel like I have just as good an idea of chomp's impact as those who have achieved 1900 and thus I feel that my view deserves a voice.

toshimelonhead · Sep 30th, 2012, 11:17:20 PM

Made reqs as toshimelonhead.

8 toshimelonhead 1923 86.7 1991 ± 65

Things I learned during laddering:

1.) SV Chomp needs to GTFO.
2.) Whoever made the Genesect / Terrakion / Breloom / Garchomp / Keldeo / Landorus team deserves to be shot (before they get into the archive).
3.) Showdown laddering is a terrible, horrible experience that makes me want to gauge my eyes out.

/end rant

PenguinX · Oct 1st, 2012, 12:42:12 PM

For future reference: don't ladder early. I lowered my dev too much before the ladder got a chance to inflate, got to like 1700 +/- 70 (which was like #2 on the ladder at the time, points-wise) and now I'm lucky if I'm getting +3/4 for beating people over 100 points higher than me, whilst still losing 20 for every sand veil bullshit. In contrast, prior to the ladder crash I managed to get 2163 with just 5 battles. Anyone know if this is an error, or is the ladder deliberately skewed to the advantage of new alts?

Currently at 1820, this is hell.

Joeyboy · Oct 1st, 2012, 1:49:38 PM

Seriously, I made the same mistake as penguinx. I was so close to reqs before the crash but now its agonizing trying to climb the ladder again; really doesn't help you pretty much never get matches because so few people are laddering again.

I've pretty much given up to be honest

TDL · Oct 1st, 2012, 3:45:44 PM

Yeah, I'm pretty much in the same situation as penguinx and everyone else (laddering under the alt rophy). Getting one to three points every game I win is complete bs. It doesn't help that I get massive tilt when I finally reach 1850 like I did last night and then have to go through the annoying process all over again.

Cicada · Oct 2nd, 2012, 2:30:08 PM

7 Battosai Himura 1937 88.3 2029 ± 65

Oh god, laddering for reqs was so boring.. I'll post my point of view on the suspect later.

AfroThunderRule · Oct 2nd, 2012, 4:07:04 PM

Goddamn I suck at this game, barely made reqs as "Why me Pokemon" with massive luck on my side.

...

Man no offense but this ladder was not good, for a suspect test featuring Garchomp I could count one one hand how many times I've seen Garchomp, and I played in 50 games. >_> (Though I shouldn't be talking since I didn't use Garchomp myself.)

I really can't say if Sand Veil Garchomp is broken or not since I didn't face Garchomp enough to being with, but from my very limited experience playing against him in this ladder I found Garchomp not broken, I had almost no problem keep sand out of play and minimizing Garchomp "haxxiness"

Since everyone was doing I guess I'll do it too, here's the dumb team I went on this ladder:

...

Texas Cloverleaf · Oct 2nd, 2012, 4:11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Cicada

7 Battosai Himura 1937 88.3 2029 ± 65

Oh god, laddering for reqs was so boring.. I'll post my point of view on the suspect later.

Sent PMs but my alt is in the screenshot

I basically abused the fuck out of the 3 main rain sweepers and genesect. Rain is quite possibly too strong for the meta. About Chomp though, I faced a few ScarfChomps, and a few SD Yache Chomps. Quick thoughts on both; ScarfChomp isnt strong enough to swing a game on its own. SD Chomp is easy to handle for an offensive team, as most attacks will but it in range of Scarf Genesect's Ice Beam, or a Scarf Keldeo water attack. With how dominant Rain is Sand Veil is a non-factor. Garchomp is perfectly fine in OU imo.

Paolo · Oct 2nd, 2012, 6:18:37 PM

Do people that didn't make reqs before the crash but would have met them by the new criteria have to reladder or is it fine to just send a screen shot of that peak? Otherwise that was a huge waste of a week and over 100 battles.

Pocket EDIT: save the screenshot, but you need to make the reqs with a new alt

CrashinBoomBang · Oct 3rd, 2012, 5:22:15 PM

I have reached requirements under the alt "end of time".

Basically, while Garchomp is still a really threatening Pokemon without Sand Veil, Sand Veil just breaks Garchomp to the point where you trying to kill it becomes a luck based endeavor. Thanks to its great bulk and typing, Garchomp can set up Substitutes on a lot of common Pokemon and proceed to demolish whole teams if Sand Veil swings in its favor just once. Non-Sand Veil Garchomp is still a good Pokemon, but definitely not broken like its Sand Veil counterpart. Keeping Sandstream up wasn't too terribly difficult for me, for the most part.

VictorVonDoom · Oct 3rd, 2012, 11:13:32 PM

So, to pose the question, in a competitive game, why does luck matter?

We're talking about a game of skill, where the reward for 'beating' luck is arguably the biggest reward to achieve. I've read how busted x is. How unfair y is. Why are we not building teams that work to corral these 'threats'? If something is dominating, but isn't a 100% lock (and please, unless the lock is 100% where your chance of winning is actually 0% don't say it is) you have a path to win.

When the meta game shifts, you work on playing it, or beating it. There are options that hinder Sand Veil, and clearly by reading everyone's posts here, Rain seems to be the dominating factor. Unless I'm mistaken Rain cancels Sand if it's on field after Sand has been activated, eliminating the boost Sand Veil gives. Which is just one way to work on beating Sand Veil.

The real issue I have here, is the common complaint of luck. Every game has an element of luck. Luck being 'an unknown and unpredictable phenomenon that leads to a favorable outcome, or its adverse.' When talking about games with evolving meta games, luck is going to be a factor. In this game we choose moves that do not have a 100% chance to hit. In other games you must shuffle your deck, or choose your pieces.

To combat these inconsistencies you produce effects that reduce their occurrence. While I understand in this testing we are looking to see how destructive Garchomp is on the meta game with Sand Veil, so we're actively looking see it's most used set up.

I would propose just unbanning it when BW2 is officially released so we can see how the meta shapes up. If it dominates for too long in too many official tournaments, ban it again. I understand that 'extreme luck based environments' are not fun to play in. But crying foul over luck with no adjustments isn't the best way to foster growth of the meta.

This isn't some plea to force unused pokemon into the OU tier, or playing janky cards to hope to beat the threat. There are excellent moves and abilities that make Sand Veil even or try and race it. And if you're seeking to play competitively trying these out instead of holding on to favorites or pets that get beaten over and over. That isn't healthy for the meta either.

If this jumbled, I apologize, but I've been giving this thought for sometime. The dearth of luck comments get to me.

alkinesthetase · Oct 3rd, 2012, 11:22:35 PM

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66515

of course luck matters. let's give an extreme and unreasonable case: from now on, every match of pokemon is determined by flipping a coin at the end of the match; whoever calls it right wins. this is not a game that leaves any room for competition or development of skill. it is entirely luck based. you think luck doesn't matter, that competitive games can be competitive regardless of luck? okay, let's hold a tournament for our new game of "pokemon".

the real question is how much luck influencing the game is too much. in this regard there are a thousand arguments, but what is certain is that not all hax is equal. thunder wave != sand veil != serene grace != critical hits. the one up on the table right now is sand veil

moreover, your argument of comparing to official tournaments is invalid. the only "official" tournaments are VGC - a meta that is completely incomparable to BW2 OU on smogon. for bw2, there are no official tournaments, except smogon's own - and those have already been held in some number.

you make some legitimate points, but the idea that luck is irrelevant to competition is completely ridiculous

VictorVonDoom · Oct 3rd, 2012, 11:28:41 PM

I did think perhaps it wasn't worded correctly, I certainly didn't mean to imply luck isn't relevant.

I believe, in fact, the opposite. I just believe that it can be managed. Certainly we can at least work on a meta that beats Sand Veil in OU, and if not, the reban it.

Lord of Bays · Oct 3rd, 2012, 11:38:25 PM

That's what this suspect test is for. I know people think it's about Garchomp (and I'd say it's fair to say it's 50/50) but in reality we're looking at Sand Veil under the Evasion Clause. Sand Veil has historically broken Garchomp, so now that Rough Skin is an option we're taking another look to see if he is actually broken without it.

And right now, the testing has overwhelmingly proven that Sand Veil is a horrible addition to the metagame and it needs to go. It does nothing but give wins to players when they often should NOT have won. How is it fair that Mamoswine misses an Icicle Spear and then an Ice Shard while Garchomp Subs, Swords Dances, and then sweeps? By all accounts, the player with Mamoswine should have won. Yes, it's "in the game" but Smogon's purpose is to make a competitive environment and Sand Veil is detrimental to a competitive metagame.

Sep 28th, 2012, 4:30:25 PM	#329
SJCrew Believer, going on a journey... Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,802	Extensive use of Garchomp and its counters is exactly what this test is aiming to achieve. The only thing non-suspect environments do for a Pokemon we're trying to gauge is allow people to bring up bullshit arguments about usage (something I think we can all agree should be avoided). This is Garchomp at its full potential. The nigh unanimous consensus is that he can beat each and every one of his checks through Evasion. Backpocket Weaviles and Bronzongs becoming common don't particularly matter if the results remain the same. __________________ (02:53:55) +shrang: sleep is epic (16:14) .No Scrafty in UU.: CBtar? (16:14) .No Scrafty in UU.: that sounds like a not bad set (16:04:25) +Steamroll: nobody likes me @Relados: snowflakes has no sense of humor

Sep 28th, 2012, 6:55:36 PM	#331
Danger Mouse Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 264 New York	Well, it sucks to have to get my rating back up when I was so. Damn. Close. But it's not the fault of smogon, it's the fault of the douchebag who DDOS'd the server. Of course, now I probably won't even get close, but I'll try my hardest. :) In response to what others have said, I think that this environment is perfect for testing Chomp's potential...after all, won't we get the best idea of his impact in an environment where everybody is trying him, and trying to find ways to beat him? I have to say, he's one hell of a good pokemon, I think his rough skin incarnation would be very healthy for the meta. __________________ How strange it is to be anything at all... http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3471821 Rate My Team - OU Heavy Offense - Keldeo deserves more respect!

Sep 28th, 2012, 10:42:22 PM	#334
Stone RG Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 127 Past the End	PK, let me change your affirmation that HO teams have chomp checked by default a little bit, 99% of teams have Garchomp checked (not coutnered) by default, because of Genesect, who we already know is the new #1 in OU, which is always seen on balanced/offensive (hell even stall can use gene to rack up hazards damage), while stall ALWAYS runs skarm, and it will feel with no reason not to in chomp meta. Also, i must say once again i dont really agree that only chomp is broken with Sand Veil, since all users of it can get a fee turn as long as sand is up, which is unacceptable in a desirable metagame. And Rough Skin has already showed itself as harmless for the balanced metag we want, so theres no reason not to ban SV. Btw, do we have to send a PM to a mod with our ranking reaching the conditions? if we have someone tell me, i thought we only had to post it here. __________________ Hax is actually the game deity teaching you the value of effort and humility, and, without it, we will be just playing another chess game. NOTE: if somebody EVER haxes you and say he embraces it, just chill, take the nearest glass and break it, and remember: they're only dickriders. -StonedRG

Sep 30th, 2012, 9:20:32 PM	#337
chaos 9 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 467	Is there a write in to vote this time around? Because I've been in a HUGE ladder slump. I've gotten to 1800+ with like 5 alts and I've logged well over 10 hours on the suspect ladder. I believe I have a very good view of chomp despite being denied the 1900 multiple times. I'll keep trying until the deadline but I feel like I have just as good an idea of chomp's impact as those who have achieved 1900 and thus I feel that my view deserves a voice. __________________ If you would like help on any aspect of team building, would like me to rate a team, or have a non postable team you would like me to take a look at, I am just one pm away.

Sep 30th, 2012, 11:17:20 PM	#338
toshimelonhead Raising Whitney's Miltank Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 886 Snowpoint City	Made reqs as toshimelonhead. 8 toshimelonhead 1923 86.7 1991 ± 65 Things I learned during laddering: 1.) SV Chomp needs to GTFO. 2.) Whoever made the Genesect / Terrakion / Breloom / Garchomp / Keldeo / Landorus team deserves to be shot (before they get into the archive). 3.) Showdown laddering is a terrible, horrible experience that makes me want to gauge my eyes out. /end rant __________________ 01[21:11] <@toshimelonhead> nova you are one lucky son of a gun [21:11] <@Novaray> hahahahaha [21:11] <@durrr> whys he lucky [21:12] <@Colchonero> maybe he got a date with jason's cousin [21:12] <@Novaray> LOL 01[21:12] <@toshimelonhead> rofl [21:13] <@durrr> HAHAHAHHA gtfo shes mine

Sep 28th, 2012, 12:41:42 PM	#327
Noob Asian Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 20	While I was testing out Garchomp in Sand (using Sand Veil), I have noticed that it is a game changer, without skill involved. If you're designing to remove as much as possible to win a game (there'll always be luck in this game, but we can mitigate as much of it as possible) then abilities that increase evasion should probably stay banned. However I havent seen a reason not to drop Rough Skin Garchomp back to OU. Here's a battle log with a Garchomp team vs my standard OU team -If you wanna see the turn around point, it's at turn: 20, 23 and 24 http://pastebin.com/zr6xnBKm

Sep 28th, 2012, 4:56:14 PM	#330
Ginku my Angel's on Angel dust Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 572	I don't see how chomp getting specific attention even matters considering that it still dominates...

Sep 29th, 2012, 8:38:43 PM	#336
taxi driver Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 58	made reqs as Find A Way http://s1310.photobucket.com/albums/...ps0bc8e7cc.png SV chomp is broken but RS is OU and good for the meta. Only question is on how to ban sand veil chomp but thats up for the council to decide.

Oct 1st, 2012, 12:42:12 PM	#339
PenguinX slow loris ˁ(⦿ᴥ⦿)ˀ Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 430	For future reference: don't ladder early. I lowered my dev too much before the ladder got a chance to inflate, got to like 1700 +/- 70 (which was like #2 on the ladder at the time, points-wise) and now I'm lucky if I'm getting +3/4 for beating people over 100 points higher than me, whilst still losing 20 for every sand veil bullshit. In contrast, prior to the ladder crash I managed to get 2163 with just 5 battles. Anyone know if this is an error, or is the ladder deliberately skewed to the advantage of new alts? Currently at 1820, this is hell. __________________ http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc...ho5ko1_400.gif

Oct 1st, 2012, 1:49:38 PM	#340
Joeyboy Check out my new Youtube channel! Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,252 JoeyboyGames! Mentor	Seriously, I made the same mistake as penguinx. I was so close to reqs before the crash but now its agonizing trying to climb the ladder again; really doesn't help you pretty much never get matches because so few people are laddering again. I've pretty much given up to be honest __________________ Youtube Channel \| Latest OU Mini-Tour \| Smog Work

Oct 1st, 2012, 3:45:44 PM	#341
TDL Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 13	Yeah, I'm pretty much in the same situation as penguinx and everyone else (laddering under the alt rophy). Getting one to three points every game I win is complete bs. It doesn't help that I get massive tilt when I finally reach 1850 like I did last night and then have to go through the annoying process all over again.

Oct 2nd, 2012, 2:30:08 PM	#342
Cicada radical dreamer Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 365 France	7 Battosai Himura 1937 88.3 2029 ± 65 Oh god, laddering for reqs was so boring.. I'll post my point of view on the suspect later. Last edited by Cicada; Oct 2nd, 2012 at 2:42:10 PM.

Oct 2nd, 2012, 4:07:04 PM	#343
AfroThunderRule I suck. Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 425 New York City	Goddamn I suck at this game, barely made reqs as "Why me Pokemon" with massive luck on my side. ... Man no offense but this ladder was not good, for a suspect test featuring Garchomp I could count one one hand how many times I've seen Garchomp, and I played in 50 games. >_> (Though I shouldn't be talking since I didn't use Garchomp myself.) I really can't say if Sand Veil Garchomp is broken or not since I didn't face Garchomp enough to being with, but from my very limited experience playing against him in this ladder I found Garchomp not broken, I had almost no problem keep sand out of play and minimizing Garchomp "haxxiness" Since everyone was doing I guess I'll do it too, here's the dumb team I went on this ladder: ... frog (Politoed) (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Drizzle EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef Modest Nature - Surf - Ice Beam - Focus Blast - Hidden Power [Grass] thun (Thundurus-Therian) (M) @ Expert Belt Trait: Volt Absorb EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP Timid Nature - Focus Blast - Volt Switch - Thunder - Hidden Power [Ice] pony (Keldeo) @ Choice Scarf Trait: Justified EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef Timid Nature - Surf - Hydro Pump - Hidden Power [Ice] - Secret Sword cockroach (Genesect) @ Choice Scarf Trait: Download EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Atk Mild Nature - U-turn - Ice Beam - Bug Buzz - Thunder Starmie @ Leftovers Trait: Natural Cure EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef Timid Nature - Hydro Pump - Thunder - Ice Beam - Rapid Spin fer (Ferrothorn) (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Iron Barbs EVs: 4 Def / 252 HP / 252 SDef Sassy Nature IVs: 0 Spd - Stealth Rock - Gyro Ball - Power Whip - Leech Seed Last edited by AfroThunderRule; Oct 2nd, 2012 at 4:18:28 PM.

Oct 2nd, 2012, 6:18:37 PM	#345
Paolo Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 58	Do people that didn't make reqs before the crash but would have met them by the new criteria have to reladder or is it fine to just send a screen shot of that peak? Otherwise that was a huge waste of a week and over 100 battles. Pocket EDIT: save the screenshot, but you need to make the reqs with a new alt

Oct 3rd, 2012, 5:22:15 PM	#346
CrashinBoomBang You only stack once. Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 717	I have reached requirements under the alt "end of time". Basically, while Garchomp is still a really threatening Pokemon without Sand Veil, Sand Veil just breaks Garchomp to the point where you trying to kill it becomes a luck based endeavor. Thanks to its great bulk and typing, Garchomp can set up Substitutes on a lot of common Pokemon and proceed to demolish whole teams if Sand Veil swings in its favor just once. Non-Sand Veil Garchomp is still a good Pokemon, but definitely not broken like its Sand Veil counterpart. Keeping Sandstream up wasn't too terribly difficult for me, for the most part.

Oct 3rd, 2012, 11:13:32 PM	#347
VictorVonDoom Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 10	So, to pose the question, in a competitive game, why does luck matter? We're talking about a game of skill, where the reward for 'beating' luck is arguably the biggest reward to achieve. I've read how busted x is. How unfair y is. Why are we not building teams that work to corral these 'threats'? If something is dominating, but isn't a 100% lock (and please, unless the lock is 100% where your chance of winning is actually 0% don't say it is) you have a path to win. When the meta game shifts, you work on playing it, or beating it. There are options that hinder Sand Veil, and clearly by reading everyone's posts here, Rain seems to be the dominating factor. Unless I'm mistaken Rain cancels Sand if it's on field after Sand has been activated, eliminating the boost Sand Veil gives. Which is just one way to work on beating Sand Veil. The real issue I have here, is the common complaint of luck. Every game has an element of luck. Luck being 'an unknown and unpredictable phenomenon that leads to a favorable outcome, or its adverse.' When talking about games with evolving meta games, luck is going to be a factor. In this game we choose moves that do not have a 100% chance to hit. In other games you must shuffle your deck, or choose your pieces. To combat these inconsistencies you produce effects that reduce their occurrence. While I understand in this testing we are looking to see how destructive Garchomp is on the meta game with Sand Veil, so we're actively looking see it's most used set up. I would propose just unbanning it when BW2 is officially released so we can see how the meta shapes up. If it dominates for too long in too many official tournaments, ban it again. I understand that 'extreme luck based environments' are not fun to play in. But crying foul over luck with no adjustments isn't the best way to foster growth of the meta. This isn't some plea to force unused pokemon into the OU tier, or playing janky cards to hope to beat the threat. There are excellent moves and abilities that make Sand Veil even or try and race it. And if you're seeking to play competitively trying these out instead of holding on to favorites or pets that get beaten over and over. That isn't healthy for the meta either. If this jumbled, I apologize, but I've been giving this thought for sometime. The dearth of luck comments get to me.

Oct 3rd, 2012, 11:22:35 PM	#348
alkinesthetase <~aldarOFF> ill be imagining your face in my toilet alkines Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 711 <ala> canadabros is the strongest bros you can be Mentor	http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66515 of course luck matters. let's give an extreme and unreasonable case: from now on, every match of pokemon is determined by flipping a coin at the end of the match; whoever calls it right wins. this is not a game that leaves any room for competition or development of skill. it is entirely luck based. you think luck doesn't matter, that competitive games can be competitive regardless of luck? okay, let's hold a tournament for our new game of "pokemon". the real question is how much luck influencing the game is too much. in this regard there are a thousand arguments, but what is certain is that not all hax is equal. thunder wave != sand veil != serene grace != critical hits. the one up on the table right now is sand veil moreover, your argument of comparing to official tournaments is invalid. the only "official" tournaments are VGC - a meta that is completely incomparable to BW2 OU on smogon. for bw2, there are no official tournaments, except smogon's own - and those have already been held in some number. you make some legitimate points, but the idea that luck is irrelevant to competition is completely ridiculous __________________ <%yee> i will summon a spider to kill alkines my massive mafia roles list

Oct 3rd, 2012, 11:28:41 PM	#349
VictorVonDoom Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 10	I did think perhaps it wasn't worded correctly, I certainly didn't mean to imply luck isn't relevant. I believe, in fact, the opposite. I just believe that it can be managed. Certainly we can at least work on a meta that beats Sand Veil in OU, and if not, the reban it.

Oct 3rd, 2012, 11:38:25 PM	#350
Lord of Bays Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 493	That's what this suspect test is for. I know people think it's about Garchomp (and I'd say it's fair to say it's 50/50) but in reality we're looking at Sand Veil under the Evasion Clause. Sand Veil has historically broken Garchomp, so now that Rough Skin is an option we're taking another look to see if he is actually broken without it. And right now, the testing has overwhelmingly proven that Sand Veil is a horrible addition to the metagame and it needs to go. It does nothing but give wins to players when they often should NOT have won. How is it fair that Mamoswine misses an Icicle Spear and then an Ice Shard while Garchomp Subs, Swords Dances, and then sweeps? By all accounts, the player with Mamoswine should have won. Yes, it's "in the game" but Smogon's purpose is to make a competitive environment and Sand Veil is detrimental to a competitive metagame.