CAP 4 - Part 6 - Stat Spread Poll 2

[Birkal*]

So here we are, at one of the final stages of voting on CAP4's stats! Make sure you read through each entry thoroughly; it's imperative that we pick a good spread in order to fulfill our concept for CAP4.

This will be a single bold vote. Make sure that you bold your vote and nothing else! A typical vote might look like the following:

My preferred entry

Any comments that the voter has would go below the votes in non-bold text. Bold text is used to determine what the user's votes are, so none of the supplementary text should be in bold.

Please post only your votes in this thread. Do not respond to other posts, or your posts will be moderated and you may be warned. You are allowed to say whatever you like in relation to your vote at the bottom of your post, but please do not look to begin a discussion. Keep those comments to #cap on IRC.

This poll will be open for 24 hours starting from the post following this one.

When voting, use only the submitter's name! The list of possible votes includes:

capefeather
GRs Cousin

---------------

Oh, and here are all the posts with spreads avec reasoning.

Originally Posted by Fat capefeather

Final Submission

110 HP / 120 Atk / 99 Def / 117 SpA / 60 SpD / 94 Spe

PT: 185.8420 (Excellent)
ST: 116.5717 (Above Average)
PS: 194.8939 (Excellent)
SS: 193.0895 (Excellent)
BSR: 390.1675 (Excellent)

Attack / Special Attack

---

My top priority is the Special Attack. I think that special offense inherently has a lot of advantages over physical offense on CAP 4, such that physical CAP 4 will require either gigantic physical offensive capability or lots of coverage moves to be enough of a threat that the risk in using it is worth it. This is also why I've been very precise in the Special Attack stat. Nonetheless, I can see where people are coming from with wanting both attacking stats to be good, so I have consequently jacked the BST up to 600.

117 Base SpA does lots of very specific things, most notably:

252 SpA Life Orb CAP 4 Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed : 177-211 (46.09 - 54.94%) -- a 3HKO through four turns of Leftovers (think Protect), but NOT a 2HKO through two turns of Leftovers.

252 SpA Life Orb CAP 4 120 super effective special vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Calm Leftovers Heatran : 221-260 (57.4 - 67.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

252 SpA Life Orb CAP 4 Psyshock vs. 192 HP / 252 Def Bold Venusaur : 257-304 (73.63 - 87.1%) -- NOT a OHKO after Stealth Rock.

252 SpA Life Orb CAP 4 Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Black Sludge Rain Dish Tentacruel : 307-361 (84.34 - 99.17%) -- NOT a OHKO unless Stealth Rock is involved.

252 SpA Life Orb CAP 4 Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T : 191-226 (63.87 - 75.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO through Regenerator assuming Stealth Rock or one turn of Life Orb recoil.

252 SpA Life Orb CAP 4 Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Leftovers Blissey : 313-370 (48 - 56.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

252 SpA Life Orb CAP 4 120 neutral special vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect : 165-195 (58.3 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Note that it may need to choose between Psyshock (to OHKO Terrakion in sand and 2HKO Blissey with Stealth Rock) and Psychic (to 2HKO Gliscor and have more general power).

As it turns out, defensive Politoed is an excellent indicator of how powerful (or not) CAP 4 can be. This is mostly because it is one of the very few common Pokémon that have great physical and special defenses. With 117 Base SpA and appropriate coverage, CAP 4 will be powerful enough to threaten most of the top 30 or so, but it will not be able to 2HKO absolutely everything just by making the right move, simply because it doesn't need to do so.

The way I see it, special CAP 4 would be used as a versatile attacker that needs some support of some kind, which could be Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, or really anything that provides many opportunities to switch in. It could choose No Guard to be able to round out its neutral coverage in three accurate moves, which would leave room for a super effective coverage move, or Megahorn, or even a support move. On the other hand, Weak Armour and Illusion could be used, the former for the obvious valuable Speed boost (more on that later), and the latter to make it easier for CAP 4 to hit the right moves on the right targets.

As for physical CAP 4:

0 Atk Life Orb CAP 4 Megahorn
vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar : 361-429 (89.35 - 106.18%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Leftovers Jirachi : 196-231 (48.51 - 57.17%) -- 94.92% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Leftovers Politoed : 169-200 (44.01 - 52.08%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Choice Scarf Rotom-W : 187-220 (77.27 - 90.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb CAP 4 Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Chansey : 320-376 (45.45 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252 Atk Life Orb CAP 4 Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Leftovers Landorus-T : 224-265 (58.63 - 69.37%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Life Orb CAP 4 Wild Charge vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Leftovers Gyarados : 291-348 (84.34 - 100.86%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb CAP 4 Fire Punch (Rain) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor : 203-239 (59.18 - 69.67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb CAP 4 120 super effective physical vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Relaxed Leftovers Ferrothorn : 218-257 (61.93 - 73.01%)

I see physical CAP 4 contrasting with special CAP 4 by being more of a wallbreaker by using Megahorn as its main battering ram at the cost of generally having lower Base Power coverage moves and having to think more about super effective coverage. Now, it should be noted that Megahorn is a pretty bad STAB for wallbreaking compared to other 120 Base Power STAB moves. So while wallbreaking may traditionally be seen as a safe role, I'd say that this does not hold quite so true with physical CAP 4. No Guard might be more desirable with physical CAP 4, since Weak Armour is geared toward a sweep, and yet accuracy is also so important. I can see Illusion working decently well, too, with enough coverage moves.

Speed

---

As it turns out, CAP 4 can already murder most of the most relevant Pokémon above 100 Base Speed, notably excluding Therian Tornadus. One could argue that potentially losing to Therian Tornadus is bad when CAP 4 could already face trouble with Politoed, but both are still maimed pretty badly, especially if Stealth Rock is involved. At any rate, I originally wanted a faster CAP 4, going with 122 at first and then dropping it below Latios, then below Terrakion. I particularly wanted to go over Genesect to ensure that CAP 4 would want to run a +Speed nature, and to ensure that it could outrun an extremely common Choice Scarf user with a Weak Armour boost. Yet, since I really didn't want to touch the Special Attack, I settled with the unique 94 Base Speed (the maximum possible under the limits is 95). This at the very least outruns Therian Landorus.

I do think that CAP 4 really needs a decent amount of Speed, not in spite of Weak Armour, but because of it. People think that a higher Base Speed will make Choice Scarf more appealing than Weak Armour, but when we look at existing Pokémon around this Speed range, we see that Choice Scarf sets are not all that popular. Genesect and Therian Landorus are the only Pokémon in the 90s Speed range that commonly carry a Choice Scarf, followed maybe by Haxorus. (Notice that all of these Pokémon are significantly more powerful than this stat spread submission, PLUS the first two have U-turn.) I think that this is largely due to the greater appeal of other items that do more for a Pokémon in that range than a Choice Scarf will achieve (not to mention the choice lock), especially with Choice Scarf Genesect on the prowl.

Let's face it, we have to consider that Choice Scarf users can still revenge a +1 boosted CAP 4 at any time. 94 is still a very inconvenient Speed tier, yet a Weak Armour boost will, at least, put it above many of the important Choice Scarf users, except perhaps the most common ones like Genesect and Terrakion (and I'd rather stick with my Special Attack than emulate Korski's submission). 94 Base Speed makes a Speed boost from Weak Armour much desired as well as very rewarding. It is also not so slow as to make Illusion and No Guard less viable. All of these abilities benefit from a decently high Speed stat. We shouldn't be putting so much unneeded focus on Weak Armour that we hurt CAP 4's viability, which would defeat the whole purpose.

Defenses

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CAP 4's defenses have the following notable effects:

252 Atk Choice Scarf Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def CAP 4 : 330-390 (91.41 - 108.03%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO.

252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def CAP 4 : 238-282 (65.92 - 78.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

64 Atk Adamant Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def CAP 4 : 230-272 (63.71 - 75.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

252 SpA Thundurus-T Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP 4 : 187-222 (51.8 - 61.49%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

0 SpA Politoed Scald (Rain) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP 4 : 180-213 (49.86 - 59%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO.

+1 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD CAP 4 : 221-261 (61.21 - 72.29%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, but NOT a OHKO after Stealth Rock.

The Stone Edge calculations reflect some amusing situations I see with CAP 4 and Weak Armour. If CAP 4 switches into Stone Edge and it misses, then it doesn't get the Speed boost, but it also has much more HP left and it could actually have, say, Choice Scarf Therian Landorus wondering if it should try another Stone Edge. On the other hand, if Stone Edge hits and CAP 4 survives, it now outruns Therian Landorus, though it will still only have one attack left due to Life Orb recoil and Stealth Rock if both are in play. A similar situation could be achieved with other common users of Stone Edge, as well as if Choice Scarf Terrakion attempts to revenge kill a completely healthy CAP 4.

The calculation from Genesect, combined with the calculation of a hypothetical neutral attack on Genesect in the Attack / Special Attack section, gives a picture of what CAP 4 versus Choice Scarf Genesect might look like with this spread. Genesect is not going to switch into CAP 4 with ease, since that coverage move will take off most of its HP. In that situation, it has to use Bug Buzz or Flamethrower to try to finish off CAP 4, otherwise it doesn't KO and it goes down. It could still switch in to revenge kill, but with the imposed limits, CAP 4 can't do everything. CAP 4 can also OHKO Terrakion and Latios, two common Choice Scarf users, so that they also only get a safe switch-in after an ally goes down.

The HP was chosen largely to regulate the BST. I had qualms about going over 86 (Yanmega), but I decided on 110 because it matched fellow Weak Armour holder Mandibuzz. I suppose it can also take advantage of certain moves, but that's for the movepool stage to decide.

This spread has been fun to make. There were a lot of considerations to make, and I was (and still am) quite worried about how viable CAP 4 will be. Yet, I particularly like the look of my spread, even if part of me wanted other things. I'll probably add some more calculations as time goes on, though for now I think I've said all that I've really needed to.

Originally Posted by Fat GRs Cousin

Final Submission (any submission would be the user's final one because seriously that's an awful move)

114 HP / 136 Atk / 104 Def / 115 SpA / 49 SpD / 82 Spe
PT: 199.6976 (Excellent)
ST: 100.0181 (Above Average)
PS: 196.7475 (Excellent)
SS: 169.6289 (Very Good)
BSR: 374.2514 (Excellent)
BST: 600

- High HP – Deliciously so. With Base 114 HP, CAP4 requires only 144 HP EVs to reach 405 health, enough to make 101 Substitutes and survive 5 Stealth Rocks, and leaving room for EVs to go in other places in non-sweeper sets.
- Discrepancy – Done with flying colors, having one of the highest possible PTs for one of the lowest possible STs.
- Specialisation – Bulky, mixed, and fast enough. It's capable of doing any of the three without being a failure, the user's risk being that you can't rely on the reward of each being worth CAP4's risk on all at the same time.
- Speed – Big one right here. Base 82 allows you to outspeed every unboosted Pokemon in the game save Deoxys and Ninjask (therefore all of OU) if you activate Weak Armor. Otherwise, it's fast enough to work well with the other abilities without being too slow (Bisharp's 70, Honchkrow's 71, Dragonite's 80, all things that hold them back) nor too fast (Base 100 outpaces plenty, to ridiculous amounts with Weak Armor that no longer really benefit it).
- Aesthetics – BST 600 is works fine, as we can pretend this thing is an event Legendary if we just make sure it doesn't have a pre-evolution. A lot of those art designs look legendary anyway, and it'd be nice to say that we made a Legendary CAP.

Physical Tankiness

...

---

252 Atk Adamant Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 Def Lax CAP4:
374 ~ 444, guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock
252 Atk Adamant Choice Scarf Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 Def Lax CAP4:
252 ~ 296, guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Adamant Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 Def Lax CAP4:
55 ~ 66, completely healed off by 2-3 turns of Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Adamant Choice Scarf Terrakion Close Combat vs. Weak Armor-activated 0 Def Negative-nature CAP4:
76 ~ 90, <25% of the frailest set possible's HP

114 HP and 104 Defense gives CAP4 the right distribution in dealing with "risk in bulk". You're OKHO'd if you take risk and lose, and given a great deal of momentum if your risk succeeds and rewards you. 114 HP means you only need 114 HP EVs to reach the magic 405 health, effectively giving you 394 EVs to fit into whichever set you desire. This works wonders with Weak Armor and Illusion, the former setting you up for a late-game sweep, the latter giving you early-game momentum. It's the right amount of bulk to give to something as much of a High-risk, High-reward Physical Tanky CAP such as this. Any more or less will deteriorate from the concept.

Speed

...

---

82 Speed is just the right amount to where one would seriously consider using Weak Amor above No Guard in a sweeper's set. With maximum speed EVs, positive nature, and Weak Armor's boost, you outspeed anything not named Deoxys or a Speed Boost holder, uninvested neutral natured base 125 Pokemon, +1 Gyarados and Necturna, and by extension, +1 anything else Base 81 or lower, and speed tie with Acrobatics Gliscor (additionally outspeeding any neutral natured base 95 with maximum speed EVs). In otherwords, it's just the right amount to break a number of speed tiers without making Weak Armor unnecessary to use. If one takes two hits on Weak Armor, CAP4 can outspeed Deoxys-S and +2 maximum speed Gyarados. Deoxys-S. Any more speed is unnecessary if one can literally achieve that speed from switching in and taking a hit.

Now, I'm aware this has gone on a lot about Weak Armor, so let's delve into what CAP4 is capable of without it. 82 Base Speed is possibly the most important stat in all of this project because of how much it affects. Base 100 speed is considered the "average" in the group of Pokemon we classify as "fast", meaning that it is understood as it is that this base speed is below average. However, it is still fast enough to make use of sets involving wall breaking, set-up sweeping, support, and other roles between. CAP4 already outspeeds 25 out of the 54 OU Pokemon (as well as 6 of the 14 CAPs) on investments and nature alone. This means that sweeper sets with Choice Scarf and No Guard are actually viable in addition to support sets, giving us lean-way to actually experiment with Illusion and No Guard without it being outclassed by other members of OU.

Special Tankiness

...

---

49 Special Defense is both a work of additional risk for CAP4, meeting the mandatory low ST spread. Even maximum investments and positive nature (which, honestly, nobody will ever do), CAP4 will always be OHKO'd by Fire Blast and Hurricane, and Thunder, Hydro Pump, and Blizzard. This helps to further increase the risk in the decision making process of choosing CAP4's ability, preventing what we can from turning any of our abilities into the ability of choice. Fortunately, because of how it will be more dangerous to exploit the benefits of No Guard, this will give us more freedom in what we give CAP4 in regards to its movepool.

Offenses

...

---

Lastly, 136 Attack and 115 Special Attack brings out the mixed stats we are looking for, favoring physical offense a little more. I'm pretty sure it's self-explanatory, but if not, the offenses are high enough to where one can make good use of Life Orb or Choice items, but low enough to where boosting sets can honestly be considered using despite CAP4's defensive and speed-marked risks. Here are some calculations to show you what a mixed high-risk, high-reward Pokemon is capable of--No, not Archeops, better.

252 Atk Naughty Life Orb CAP4 Megahorn vs. 252 Def Impish Ferrothorn:
172 ~ 204, guaranteed 2HKO without Leech Seed in effect on switch-in
252 Atk Naughty Life Orb CAP4 Megahorn vs. 252 Def Bold Chansey:
255 ~ 301, 3HKO factoring in leftovers
+2 252 Atk Naughty Life Orb CAP4 Megahorn vs. 252 Def Bold Chansey:
765 ~ 900, guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Naughty Life Orb CAP4 Megahorn vs. Uninvested Neutral Natured Rotom-W:
273 ~ 322, chance for a OHKO, guaranteed without any HP EVs
252 SpA Rash Life Orb CAP4 Bug Buzz vs. Uninvested Neutral Natured Jirachi:
177 ~ 208, chance for 2HKO without Leftovers, guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Rash Life Orb CAP4 Bug Buzz vs. Uninvested Neutral Natured Tyranitar in Sandstorm:
386 ~ 456, guaranteed OHKO with any hazard damage
252 SpA Rash Life Orb CAP4 HP Electric vs. 220 SpD Calm Jellicent:
132 ~ 156, chance of 3HKO

Things to note:

• We outright OHKO-2HKO many of the game's best physical walls using Megahorn
• CAP4 takes chunks out of some of the game's best special walls using special moves
• Capacity to hit from either spectrum means these calculations were for okay-case scenario, meaning in practice CAP4 will hit even harder if using the right moves
• Having used Life Orb means that results can be more effective if risk is rewarded by using Choice Band/Specs and boosting moves

Bonus little comparison between a couple other similar spreads

...

---

Highest, Lowest
SubwayJ.............110 HP / 120 Atk / 100 Def / 110 SpA / 55 SpD / 80 Spe / BST 575
meteor64............110 HP / 124 Atk / 101 Def / 122 SpA / 61 SpD / 82 Spe / BST 600
GRs Cousin..........114 HP / 136 Atk / 104 Def / 115 SpA / 49 SpD / 82 Spe / BST 600

----------------------

And lastly, here's my comparison sheet for sake of convenience.

User..................		HP	Atk	Def	SpA	SpD	Spe	SF		BST		PT.............	ST.............	PS.............	SS..............		BSR

capefeather........		110	120	99	117	60	94	541		600		185.8419772	116.5716576	194.8938802	193.0895226		390.1675287
GRs Cousin..........		114	136	104	115	49	82	464		600		199.6976322	100.0181276	196.7474821	169.6289344		374.2514041

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Below is CAP 4 so far:

Concept

---

Originally Posted by Fat capefeather

Name: Risky Business
(formerly "Living On the Edge")

General Description: This Pokémon is very risky to play, but very rewarding if played correctly.

Justification: Many of the Pokémon that are successful in OU are relatively easy to play or have great "safe" options (e.g. U-turn). Yet, many other Pokémon look very powerful, but are less successful than they could be because of some large risks involved (e.g. Hydreigon), and some aren't successful at all (e.g. Honchkrow). This self-balancing concept intends to explore what it takes for a risky Pokémon to be successful, and how much inherent risk a Pokémon can get away with. It should be emphasized that this concept is NOT about luck management, but rather, it is about what the user can afford to do given his/her opponent's options, and vice versa.

Questions To Be Answered:

• What is the relationship between risk and potential consequences, both positive and negative?
• What kinds of inherently risky tactics are successful in the OU metagame?
• Do risky Pokémon need some form of safe options (e.g. switch-ins) to be successful in OU, or can it get away with having few really safe options?
• How does Substitute, a well-known "safe" move with nearly universal distribution, impact how this Pokémon is built and played?
• How do existing Pokémon use and deal with risky situations?
• Can risky Pokémon be played well in the early game, or are they better off put into action later on?
• How do different playstyles interact with risky situations?

Typing: Bug / Psychic
Abilities: Weak Armour / Illusion / No Guard

[bugmaniacbob]

capefeather

Birkal you made this an IRV poll

shame on you

[nyttyn]

capefeather

[jas61292]

GRs Cousin
A little too one sided on the offenses for my taste, but otherwise looks really good.

[Texas Cloverleaf]

capefeather

[Gerard]

capefeather

Any other result would be UNACCEPTABLLLLLLLE!

[Octaazacubane]

Capefeather's gives a better balance. It seems like GR's cousin's could be too powerful with a weak armor boost vs. no guard/illusion (illusion, seriously? I guess it's not too uncalled for).

[TubaKing]

capefeather

[SubwayJ]

capefeather

[Espeon65]

capefeather

[umbriel]

capefeather

[The Other Doug]

GRs Cousin

[fryfrey]

capefeather

[srk1214]

capefeather

[Imanalt]

capefeather

[Pokethan]

capefeather

[DarkBlazeR]

capefeather

[DarkSlay]

GRs Cousin

Officially forming the "The HP is Too Damn High" party.

Congrats to both competitors!

[ganj4lF]

capefeather

[GRs Cousin]

capefeather

If he wins, the winner was the one I voted for.
If I win, my stats are the ones used.
Either way, I'll still be a winner.

[PokNinjaGuy]

Capefeather

[CiteAndPrune]

GRs Cousin

Two excellent stat spreads made it this far. Good luck to both either way.

[Rediamond]

capefeather

[ThePhalanx]

capefeather

[LockDown]

capefeather