GSC In-game tiers

[Redew]

9.9

These are great! :) However, we want to keep the entries as concise as possible. So, if you could, would you be willing to shorten these down a bit. Something like Pokemon does well against this gym, another gym, etc. Things like that will help. Sorry for the inconvenience.

[NARFNra]

These short enough?

Hoppip for Bottom.

Hoppip
Availability: Routes 32 and 33, right after Violet City.
Stats: Bad. All he has is good speed.
Movepool: Horrible. He has almost no attacking options and has to rely on Synthesis with Status support.
Gyms that it fares well against:
Hoppip is only really capable of taking down Brock. Everyone else has at least one party member he cannot harm in any meaningful way, and often multiple ones.
Other info: Hoppip is really weak and almost completely useless. It can only attempt to use status to defeat most opponents, bar the occasional 4x grass weak. As such, I say it deserves a solid place in the Bottom tier.
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Remoraid for Bottom.

Remoraid
Availability: Remoraid is very late by Johto standards, swarming at an underleveled 20 or after reaching Kanto when you get the Super Rod at level 40. It's not available in Crystal..
Stats: Remoraid has pathetic defenses and only decent offenses, and its evolution has only average defense but rather good mixed offenses.
Movepool: Below average. Remoraid basically depends on Aurora/Ice Beam, Bubblebeam/Surf, Psybeam, and perhaps Thief. Nothing else works for it.
Gyms that it fares well against:
Remoraid comes late and really doesn't do so well, especially since it's underleveled. It can possibly take out Karen(bar Vileplume) and Blaine, but everyone else either resists or easily KOs Octillery.

Other info: Octillery is probably one of the worst fully evolved water types in the game. It comes late, is easy to miss, doesn't even have any good moves for the time it does show up and is dangerously easy to KO considering its lame speed. It does get acceptable coverage for some of the smaller fights, but realistically you'd be better off with any other Water. Not to mention Surfing is mandatory by the time you actually have access to it, so you probably already have a good Water..

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Oddish for Low.

Oddish
Availability: Oddish is first found when you reach Ilex Forest, and is fairly common at night.
Stats: Good early on, but having a stone evo really gives him problems.
Movepool: Pretty bad. Oddish suffers from having only Absorb, Acid, and Cut for a long, long, time, and Sludge Bomb isn't much help. It takes until the E4 to get a useful attack move.
Gyms that it fares well against:
Oddish can help with Chuck, Bruno, Lt. Surge, Erika, and Brock, as well as cleaning up certain pokemon on other teams. It also isn't completely destroyed by Team Rocket, compared to other Grass types.

Other info: Vileplume's biggest two problems are severely bad damage early on and a difficult evolution. Both of these cannot be rectified until the E4, so using it's honestly an uphill battle. Cut being your best move against most things is very unpleasant, and being walled is never fun. In the end it's not so bad that it can't be used, it's just terrible enough that almost any other Grass type that isn't useless(examples of useless include Hoppip and Paras) probably does its job better. The poison neutrality is pretty good, though, and it's fairly usable in Kanto.

[Redew]

Yeah! Those are good!

[Lucchini]

Really disagree with Remoraid's rating. Evolves early enough when you catch it (and has no trouble getting those levels if you trigger the swarm and catch it with a Good Rod), stellar offences and 75 in HP and both defences is actually above average for this game, and the water-typing has little to be afraid of in GSC, not to mention running the Surf (electrics, fire-types and ice-types don't get their 95 BP anywhere as easily with a couple exceptions).

Yeah, it's slow, but it can take a hit especially knowing this is the game where most things don't nail you very hard at all, and Octillery packs quite the punch when it's its turn to act. Yeah, it's available late, but it's got 9 gyms, the E4/Champion and Red waiting for it.

A lot of suggestions of optimal usage seem bizarre as well. Why are we even teaching Thief for any reason besides stealing (which is also a waste of time in this game generally speaking)? Why are we using Psybeam when neutral Surf hits harder, or, in case of water-resists, powerful Return off a 105 base attack?

A lot of supposed shortcomings aren't really such, like the necessity of having a water-type just because you need to get Amphy's medicine and Chuck's badge. You also need Waterfall, and Whirpool in Crystal, if you want to beat the maingame - not exactly a reason to catch a Poliwag (though you might as well do so, why not). Crystal's Suicune is also a lategame water, are we sandbagging it into Bottom tier too?

[Nyara]

Remoraid is fine for the low tier, I think, buttom is too much for a thing that can actually hurt a lot the whole world Pokémon with just its level up moves (come on, early Aurora Beam + Psybeam + BubbleBeam, a perfect moveset with just few levels), add Hyper Beam to finish off any wild and last trainer's Pokémon, and you have a decent Pokémon, he could be better with highest speed, but he's still able to take some hits without too much trouble, and he's still faster than almost everything that can hurt him bad, and non water-types apart from Starmie are really faster than the usual fully evolved Electric and Grass pals. Also, Remoraid is fast enough to outspeed a lot of things and hits hard enough to end stuff fast, and thus, evolve soon.

For the late game he does learn Ice Beam, too, not too much water pals learn Ice Beam as a level up move, that's a plus.

[TM13IceBeam]

It should be noted that nothing is stopping you from using some random dipshit like sentret as a surf slave. octillery coming after surf shouldn't be a point against it imo. Given that he doesn't actually have the offenses of a wet paper bag he should at least be low imo.

[NARFNra]

The real reason I counted Octillery's lateness against it is mostly how underleveled it is by the time it's usable: If you use it in Kanto, then you need to backtrack to pick it up; if you don't it's in the low twenties and won't be hurting much for a while.

It is true, however, that Octillery is very bulky for GSC and has extremely good offenses for the game. I was wary of suggesting Return for Octillery mostly because I figured that it would be used somewhere else(as you are only able to get the TM once a week, if I recall correctly?), but it is likely that Octillery will deal more damage with it than anything that doesn't get STAB, so I suppose I'm out of luck there.

I apologize and suggest my first evaluation be changed to Low. ...For that matter, it may be better for someone to replace it.

[JSND]

It should be noted that Victory Road are filled with Rocks

In another words, Water type are almost on a "your god" kind of amazing in late game GSC

[Hemp Man]

Originally Posted by Fat Lucchini

He's not unique with his HM slave utility though. Psyduck, Poliwhirl and Azumarill learn the same exact HM moves and are easier to catch/raise. His main strengths are coming at lv. 30 when the rest of your party is likely in their mid to high 20s, having high base stats and generally good typing, but his lack of a physical STAB, poor special attack are serious weaknesses, and sloppy Icy Winds aren't ever taking Lance's Barneys down.

Needs to be driven out of Top Tier together with Cyndaquil (the italics say High tier for some reason btw).

Yeah I've been using Red Gyarados and hes basically amazing until the E4, where his lack of Physical STAB (no Hidden Power Flying!) and poor SpA really start to show. Probably better at High Tier.

[Lucchini]

Nobody says we're forced to take on the random encounters, but yeah, Octillery can catch up there if it's still underlevelled for the E4.

The best time to be a water-type is probably right after Whitney. 95 BP with STAB is way better than what any other type gets in this game (I guess you could mention Return on early normal-types but that's about it).

[Redew]

So, Gyarados to High tier? Are you guys happy with that?

Oh and I fixed Cyndaquil

[thunderstone]

Is there a reason Lapras isn't on the list in the OP? If not, please can I reserve it? Almost finished Johto in a play through using it.

I used Cyndaquil as my starter and found that he was a real weak link for most of the level 20 range. He is stranded with Ember until level 31. In the meantime the seemingly low tier Pidgeotto was having a great time spamming return. I understand his early and late game use, but Cyndaquil seems really weak in the mid-game in comparison with the fellow members of the high tier. Would be interesting to hear if anyone else has had trouble with Cyndaquil.

Pidgeotto has been very capable up until this point (post goldenrod tower).

On that topic I would like to nominate Geodude for top. It is available extremely early, and huge numbers of the trainers in the game that rely on normal type moves have no way of troubling it. It hits hard, has a stab combo from level 16 and learns all its important moves naturally. Geodude makes some challenging gyms a complete joke, including Bugsy's Scyther, Whitney's Miltank and Morty's Gengar. I understand it has a trade evolution but it seems to be way better than a lot of stuff in high tier. Just my thoughts.

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat thunderstone

Is there a reason Lapras isn't on the list in the OP? If not, please can I reserve it? Almost finished Johto in a play through using it.

I used Cyndaquil as my starter and found that he was a real weak link for most of the level 20 range. He is stranded with Ember until level 31. In the meantime the seemingly low tier Pidgeotto was having a great time spamming return. I understand his early and late game use, but Cyndaquil seems really weak in the mid-game in comparison with the fellow members of the high tier. Would be interesting to hear if anyone else has had trouble with Cyndaquil.

Pidgeotto has been very capable up until this point (post goldenrod tower).

On that topic I would like to nominate Geodude for top. It is available extremely early, and huge numbers of the trainers in the game that rely on normal type moves have no way of troubling it. It hits hard, has a stab combo from level 16 and learns all its important moves naturally. Geodude makes some challenging gyms a complete joke, including Bugsy's Scyther, Whitney's Miltank and Morty's Gengar. I understand it has a trade evolution but it seems to be way better than a lot of stuff in high tier. Just my thoughts.

Seconding Top tier for Geodude, as I have used it a number of times in my playthroughs. He trashes major battles with little difficulty, and doesn't really need to be traded to be useful for the whole game. That's pretty impressive. Not to mention he's the only good Ground type in the game (lol poor Phanpy, Wooper and Sandshrew).

Cyndaquil has a huge ass shit period starting from Level 20 to Level 36. Yes, that long. Flame Wheel simply isn't enough for Quilava to help it compete with the other team-mates. On the flip-side, Chikorita was useful for the whole game, never has a shit period, and Chika's in Mid. Chika also excels in Kanto, soloing most of the gyms there with EQ and Razor Leaf, and resists Miltank's Rollout (which is pretty big).

Pidgeotto is, and always will be, better than Fearow after Gen 2. Bulkier, and still has an evolution stage to go. Most GSC players I know still use Pidgeotto as their Flying type of choice thanks to it being so dependable. I'd bump it up to Mid, because it really is the best Flying type pre-Kanto (unless I'm forgetting someone).

Lapras is frightfully hard to find, only appearing every Friday as an Only One encounter each time. I don't see it going any higher than Low because of how hard you have to work to get it instead of a Slowpoke or something.

[Lucchini]

Don't forget Geodude's low speed, lack of a powerful rock-type STAB (E4 is filled with fliers and Rock Throw won't cut it), Magnitude's lack of reliability in damage and rather average performance in gyms 5 to 8 and most of the E4 where special attacks and tough fighters are abundant.

Top is really pushing for it.

Chikorita is most definitely inferior to Cyndaquil as a starter, in spite of that early Razor Leaf (which will likely be its strongest move that doesn't require recharging until postgame). Rollout hits Chikorita neutrally, so no advantage there besides being able to put up Reflect.

I don't see why Pidgeot would be better than Fearow. Mid sounds fair though.

With Lapras, there's no magic to catching one - you either start your playthrough and plan it day-by-day in a way that permits you to catch your Lapras on time, or you take a break / rig the clock to get it right when it's available. We shouldn't have trouble catching Lapras much like we shouldn't have trouble getting a Return TM.

[Hemp Man]

The problem with taking Gyarados down means that Abra has the whole Top Tier to himself, I don't like the idea of a Pokemon having its own tier.

Chikorita is most definitely inferior to Cyndaquil as a starter, in spite of that early Razor Leaf (which will likely be its strongest move that doesn't require recharging until postgame). Rollout hits Chikorita neutrally, so no advantage there besides being able to put up Reflect.

Hold up, Chikorita performs much better against Whitney. Taking neutral damage from Rollout, as well as having Reflect, is sure as hell better than being 2x weak to Rollout.

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat Lucchini

Don't forget Geodude's low speed, lack of a powerful rock-type STAB (E4 is filled with fliers and Rock Throw won't cut it), Magnitude's lack of reliability in damage and rather average performance in gyms 5 to 8 and most of the E4 where special attacks and tough fighters are abundant.

Top is really pushing for it.

Chikorita is most definitely inferior to Cyndaquil as a starter, in spite of that early Razor Leaf (which will likely be its strongest move that doesn't require recharging until postgame). Rollout hits Chikorita neutrally, so no advantage there besides being able to put up Reflect.

I don't see why Pidgeot would be better than Fearow. Mid sounds fair though.

With Lapras, there's no magic to catching one - you either start your playthrough and plan it day-by-day in a way that permits you to catch your Lapras on time, or you take a break / rig the clock to get it right when it's available. We shouldn't have trouble catching Lapras much like we shouldn't have trouble getting a Return TM.

Razor Leaf is powerful enough, and simply suggesting that Chikorita is inferior to Cyndaquil is laughable. Pray tell what your beloved Cyndaquil would be able to do against Miltank? At least Bayleef can status (oh my? Strategy?) the Miltank and stall it out, unlike Cyndaquil, who dies to Miltank. Bayleef has little problem in Chuck's gym, can solo Jasmine's Steelix and can surprisingly hold its own in Pryce's gym (thanks to underpowered Icy Wind being spammed left and right). It also happens to be pretty darn good at tackling Clair, something that Cyndaquil can't do. Cyndaquil also has a bunch of type disadvantages in Kanto, something that Meganium doesn't boast.

EDIT: Meganium can also sponge Outrages fairly well, and can stall out the Thunder Barney in the Lance Battle. It also can defeat the Gyarados and Aerodactyl (iirc, it doesn't pack Wing Attack).

Chikorita also happens to be the best Grass type you can get in Johto thanks to the lack of evolution stones. Razor Leaf at a really low level, able to throw status powders around, bulkier than the other two starters...I fail to see how Cyndaquil outclasses it.

On the subject of Geodude, the sheer fact that Graveler can hold its own for the whole game as a NFE Pokemon, and being the best Ground type you can get in Johto should be enough to put it in Top. Not to mention it trivializes the first four gyms on its own. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that alone enough to be Top Tier? What does Kadabra have over Graveler that makes it better? It can't solo four potentially problematic gyms on its own, can it?

This is a NORMAL PLAYTHROUGH, not one that's meticulously planned out so that you get the Pokemon you want. Why get Lapras, when I could just as well get some shmuck Tentacool by fishing? Besides, in order to get Lapras, you have to already have something that can Surf. Like...a Water type? So you already have a Water type. Why do you need a Lapras that's underleveled, and levels up slower than molasses? (doesn't it come at 15 or something?). If we're planning out what we're getting anyway, what's the point in saying "oh this guy shows up too late in the game" (Dodrio) or "this Pokemon arrives super early and is always a reliable member" (Totadile) when deciding tiers?

[Lucchini]

Originally Posted by Fat Hemp Man

The problem with taking Gyarados down means that Abra has the whole Top Tier to himself, I don't like the idea of a Pokemon having its own tier.

That's why we should add Totodile to the same tier.

Originally Posted by Fat Hemp Man

Hold up, Chikorita performs much better against Whitney. Taking neutral damage from Rollout, as well as having Reflect, is sure as hell better than being 2x weak to Rollout.

If we talk about Bayleef facing Whitney and Quilava facing Whitney then yes, the former has an advantage. I was referring to grass-types not resisting rock-type moves is all.

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

Razor Leaf is powerful enough, and simply suggesting that Chikorita is inferior to Cyndaquil is laughable. Pray tell what your beloved Cyndaquil would be able to do against Miltank? At least Bayleef can status (oh my? Strategy?) the Miltank and stall it out, unlike Cyndaquil, who dies to Miltank. Bayleef has little problem in Chuck's gym, can solo Jasmine's Steelix and can surprisingly hold its own in Pryce's gym (thanks to underpowered Icy Wind being spammed left and right). It also happens to be pretty darn good at tackling Clair, something that Cyndaquil can't do. Cyndaquil also has a bunch of type disadvantages in Kanto, something that Meganium doesn't boast.

EDIT: Meganium can also sponge Outrages fairly well, and can stall out the Thunder Barney in the Lance Battle. It also can defeat the Gyarados and Aerodactyl (iirc, it doesn't pack Wing Attack).

Chikorita also happens to be the best Grass type you can get in Johto thanks to the lack of evolution stones. Razor Leaf at a really low level, able to throw status powders around, bulkier than the other two starters...I fail to see how Cyndaquil outclasses it.

On the subject of Geodude, the sheer fact that Graveler can hold its own for the whole game as a NFE Pokemon, and being the best Ground type you can get in Johto should be enough to put it in Top. Not to mention it trivializes the first four gyms on its own. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that alone enough to be Top Tier? What does Kadabra have over Graveler that makes it better? It can't solo four potentially problematic gyms on its own, can it?

This is a NORMAL PLAYTHROUGH, not one that's meticulously planned out so that you get the Pokemon you want. Why get Lapras, when I could just as well get some shmuck Tentacool by fishing? Besides, in order to get Lapras, you have to already have something that can Surf. Like...a Water type? So you already have a Water type. Why do you need a Lapras that's underleveled, and levels up slower than molasses? (doesn't it come at 15 or something?). If we're planning out what we're getting anyway, what's the point in saying "oh this guy shows up too late in the game" (Dodrio) or "this Pokemon arrives super early and is always a reliable member" (Totadile) when deciding tiers?

Razor Leaf has 55 BP, which is okay when you first get it (merely okay because poisons, bugs and fliers are all over the place) but grows obsolete with time. A strategy of beating Miltank with Poisonpowder and Reflect (as well as a bunch of Fresh Waters) is a bad strategy; even if you're using Bayleef, it's quicker to put up Reflect and switch into something that can actually hurt Miltank (possible a normal-type with Return).

Chikorita's gym performance in Johto is rather poor really. It does do fine against Chuck (though Dynamicpunch is still a potential threat), but I don't see where you find a good performance if we speak about Jasmine or Pryce. Steelix hurts you harder than you do him and threatens with a defence reduction. Against Clair, you do have good defences and resistances, but how are you going to deal damage? Poisonpowder again? "Stalling" is a poor word to use when describing Chikorita's capabilities, as it lacks sleep/paralysis, leeching, confusion (outside of Swagger). You don't even get Dig for Magnemites. If you get it fully promoted until Pryce you're good to go (not that anyone has trouble with Seal), but you're unlikely to take a STAB Blizzard from Piloswine and live to tell the tale, while Razor Leaf with that base spec. atk. is nothing to write home about.

Only one Dragonite has Outrage in the champion battle, and that same one packs Fire Blast so I wouldn't say Meganium makes a good sponge.

Being the best grass-type isn't saying a whole lot when they aren't good at all in this game; if anything, it just says Chikorita is preferable to other mediocrities. Stones are there in the Crystal version by the way, and Sunkern's evolution can happen in any version with ease.

Geodude most definitely doesn't triviliase any gym besides Bugsy (who can be easily beaten by, say, Spearow or any starter that isn't Chikorita). It needs to grind to reach Rock Throw for Falkner, Miltank can still outstall it (it takes Rollouts just fine if you kept Defence Curl on your set but good luck dealing damage to her on your own) and anything with a decent neutral move does good in Morty's gym. Geodude actually does a poor job there due to being slow and susceptible to the statuses thrown around and takes longer to take things out with Magnitude.

Much like being the best grass-type doesn't say about Chikorita, being the best ground-type says only how mediocre the ground-types are in this game. Now if you're the best water-type or normal-type, then you're something special.

I don't get what you even mean by not planning out a run. You don't just randomly decide to use random Pokemon you accidentally caught; and if you do, well, that's not a good argument for a tier list discussion. Tentacool doesn't get have good special attack, natural Ice Beam (with STAB), so Lapras has a niche that it fulfills nicely - that of a dragonslayer. I believe it comes at lv. 25, quite competent for when you get access to Surf.

[thunderstone]

Hi guys, here is my Lapras review. OP - the reason this is so long for now is to explain my reasoning as I expect there will be some debate over this. When a consensus has been reached/you say so, I'll provide you with a version suitable for the tier list.

Lapras - High

Availability: Mid-game. Requires Surf so Post-Morty. Interactable Pokemon that is available every Friday deep in Union Cave.

Stats: Excellent bulk - will take those hyper beams and outrages like a boss. Very useable attack stats - with his strong moves I was never left wanting more power. Important to remember that when it's caught at level 20 it's fully evolved, so despite being a few levels behind your team it will likely have comparable/better stats.

Moves: It starts with Body Slam, teach it Surf immediately and it has marvellous water/normal coverage. Gains Ice Beam at level 36 for Clair/Elite 4 ownage.

Lapras is an excellent Pokemon. It requires a meaty side quest (which has its benefits in the exp from the trainers in Union Cave) that let's it down on the efficiency aspect of a good in-game Pokemon. It has to be caught on a Friday, although in Gold and Silver your can freely reset your clock w ith the password system. However after obtaining it is excellent. Strong stabs, excellent stats, already fully evolved.

In my eyes, the efficiency questions prevent it from being top - but once you have obtained it, i found it very impressive. For this reason, I would like to suggest Lapras for High.

[TM13IceBeam]

I'm not sure why is there a major hoo-ha over Lapras. Just set your clock to Wed/Thur/Fri or something, get through to Surf quickly, then go back and catch Lapras. If we are really going to dick over minor details such as "NOEZ LAPRAZ ONLY ON FRIDAYZ" then fuck that we should just apply the same logic to almost everything i.e. W2 Braviary/DPP Drifloon. Remember that you get to choose what day to start off at, nobody really cares if you start at 11:30pm every day so you can get 2 of each early berry.

Honestly it's really in the same boat as Slowbro because you have to backtrack your ass back to Union Cave to get him, but Lapras isn't very useful for Chuck so you can choose to skip until you get Fly. High tier seems just about alright to me.

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

I'm not sure why is there a major hoo-ha over Lapras. Just set your clock to Wed/Thur/Fri or something, get through to Surf quickly, then go back and catch Lapras. If we are really going to dick over minor details such as "NOEZ LAPRAZ ONLY ON FRIDAYZ" then fuck that we should just apply the same logic to almost everything i.e. W2 Braviary/DPP Drifloon. Remember that you get to choose what day to start off at, nobody really cares if you start at 11:30pm every day so you can get 2 of each early berry.

Honestly it's really in the same boat as Slowbro because you have to backtrack your ass back to Union Cave to get him, but Lapras isn't very useful for Chuck so you can choose to skip until you get Fly. High tier seems just about alright to me.

Pretty sure you can catch Slowpoke in Slowpoke Well right when you get there though.

Also, what exactly does Quilava do to justify being High Tier? A Base 55 power move that lasts you a while is a lot better than being stuck with the same Base 35 Power move until Level thirty fucking one. Remember people complaining about Ember with Charmleon in the RBY tier list? Why is Quilava suddenly "omgsoawesome" because it has to deal with the same shit that Charmeleon does, only longer because it takes forever to get from Level 20 to Level 30 in GSC. Until that time, it's just sucking up experience until it gets that magical move. And what do you get at Level 31? A base 55 power move, something that Bayleef has been packing for the entire game.

You're implying that you don't use items while playing a game. As for Clair, Meganium does just fine sucking up attacks, and can go toe to toe with Clair's Kingdra. Meganium also gets Body Slam at Level 31, which makes Clair's Dragonairs (bar the Ice Beam one) a non issue, especially considering Parahax. Meganium IS one of the better checks to her team, though he's not the best. Y'know, the Gym Leader people cry about? She also packs Headbutt to compete with Whitney's Miltank. I find it hillarious that people give Chikorita shit about being a terrible choice for a starter when he's actually not that bad. Why not try using the green dino instead of going "oh this thing is shit because everyone says so". When I say use it, I mean use it. Let it contribute to the team.

Geodude DOES trivialize Falkner even without Rock Throw because it takes no damage from Mud Slap because it's a pisspoor attack being thrown at 100 Base Defense. By the time you get to Whitney, you already have Magnitude. Geodude is one of the better checks to Whitney BECAUSE it quad resists Rock and resists everything else while hitting back with heavy hits. 80 Base Attack is still better than most things you have at this point, and better than anything you can have at this point that can actually look at Miltank and not die (Scyther and Pinsir?), bar Machop, who you have to trade a precious Abra for. You can't tell me you aren't at least Level 16 by Whitney (which is when Geodude gets Magnitude). If you say Geodude does terrible damage to Whitney, tell me what does. As for Morty, Hypnosis has shaky accuracy, so your point about "statuses" is invalid thanks to 55 accuracy while Geodude is throwing Magnitudes. Besides, Curse is also present, meaning a free hit anyway if it happens.

[TM13IceBeam]

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

Pretty sure you can catch Slowpoke in Slowpoke Well right when you get there though.

Hi there.

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

Also, what exactly does Quilava do to justify being High Tier? A Base 55 power move that lasts you a while is a lot better than being stuck with the same Base 35 Power move until Level thirty fucking one. Remember people complaining about Ember with Charmleon in the RBY tier list? Why is Quilava suddenly "omgsoawesome" because it has to deal with the same shit that Charmeleon does, only longer because it takes forever to get from Level 20 to Level 30 in GSC. Until that time, it's just sucking up experience until it gets that magical move. And what do you get at Level 31? A base 55 power move, something that Bayleef has been packing for the entire game.

Being good endgame? Not actually having shit offense lategame? Not being stuck to two-type coverage endgame? Thunderpunch is useful, you know.

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

You're implying that you don't use items while playing a game. As for Clair, Meganium does just fine sucking up attacks, and can go toe to toe with Clair's Kingdra. Meganium also gets Body Slam at Level 31, which makes Clair's Dragonairs (bar the Ice Beam one) a non issue, especially considering Parahax. Meganium IS one of the better checks to her team, though he's not the best. Y'know, the Gym Leader people cry about? She also packs Headbutt to compete with Whitney's Miltank. I find it hillarious that people give Chikorita shit about being a terrible choice for a starter when he's actually not that bad. Why not try using the green dino instead of going "oh this thing is shit because everyone says so". When I say use it, I mean use it. Let it contribute to the team.

Bayleef, excellent choice for Whitney? stop making me laugh bro, 87.5% male isn't going to cut against Attract. It's only better than Quilava because it doesn't take super effective from Rollout. Dragonairs should be easily handled by whoever has Ice Punch in it's movepool (like slowbro, kadabra, or even JYNX)

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

Geodude DOES trivialize Falkner even without Rock Throw because it takes no damage from Mud Slap because it's a pisspoor attack being thrown at 100 Base Defense. By the time you get to Whitney, you already have Magnitude. Geodude is one of the better checks to Whitney BECAUSE it quad resists Rock and resists everything else while hitting back with heavy hits. 80 Base Attack is still better than most things you have at this point, and better than anything you can have at this point that can actually look at Miltank and not die (Scyther and Pinsir?), bar Machop, who you have to trade a precious Abra for. You can't tell me you aren't at least Level 16 by Whitney (which is when Geodude gets Magnitude). If you say Geodude does terrible damage to Whitney, tell me what does. As for Morty, Hypnosis has shaky accuracy, so your point about "statuses" is invalid thanks to 55 accuracy while Geodude is throwing Magnitudes. Besides, Curse is also present, meaning a free hit anyway if it happens.

Lrn2math, or, why base stats are meaningless earlygame. L7 Pidgey has 12 Attack, given 7 IV/0 EVs. L8 Geodude has 25 HP and 22 Defense, given 7 IV/196EVs. Pidgey does up to 6 damage with Mud Slap, Geodude barely survives the 4HKO. Given Mud-Slap's accuracy drops, and the fact that Falkner has a god damn fucking PIDGEOTTO, Geodude is definitely not trivialising Falkner any-time soon without some overlevelling.

Geodude is not one of the better checks to Whitney: it is THE best check, because it can sit in against Miltank all day long and not die. Sadly, in terms of efficiency, this isn't what we want, which is why we go for the Machop trade. Abra isn't really precious if you're lucky to encounter one, given that you can just buy another at 4000 bucks with the Game Corner. Morty is lulz, Geodude can derp around with mint berries for insurance.

[thunderstone]

Cyndaquil being in the same tier as geodude is insane. The best elements of high should go top, and some mids should be brought to high. Typhlosion with flamethrower and thunderpunch is pretty great - but that comes so so late it's irrelevant.

Totodile is better than Cyndaquil, no doubt about it. Fully evolved at 30. Water, Normal, Dark coverage plus ice if you pay for Ice Punch. The presence of surf in the mid game giving a 95bp stab gives any water type such an advantage. Totodile doesn't belong in mid.

The Gastly analysis doesn't mention the fact that Gastly doesn't have any good attacking moves outside of TMs. It's a coverage machine if you are willing to invest in the punches, and gets hypnosis which is ok I guess. Beyond that I'm confused how its in high when something like Pidgey performs with such ease and is in low.

Pidgey was excellent in my most recent play through. Stab return is not to be underestimated, and Fly should be viewed as a coverage move. Return is where the power's at. Pidgeot should probably be mid, but they are so inconsistent at the moment that I'm not sure where it belongs. It's better than Cyndaquil, but worse than Totodile. Looking at the tiers, I hope you see my point.

[TheKAM1993]

Typhlosion doesn't have to rely on Flame Wheel. You can teach it Fire Punch until it gets Flamethrower, or you can spend a load of money on coins for Fire Blast.

[Hemp Man]

Originally Posted by Fat Lucchini

That's why we should add Totodile to the same tier.



If we talk about Bayleef facing Whitney and Quilava facing Whitney then yes, the former has an advantage. I was referring to grass-types not resisting rock-type moves is all.



Razor Leaf has 55 BP, which is okay when you first get it (merely okay because poisons, bugs and fliers are all over the place) but grows obsolete with time. A strategy of beating Miltank with Poisonpowder and Reflect (as well as a bunch of Fresh Waters) is a bad strategy; even if you're using Bayleef, it's quicker to put up Reflect and switch into something that can actually hurt Miltank (possible a normal-type with Return).

Chikorita's gym performance in Johto is rather poor really. It does do fine against Chuck (though Dynamicpunch is still a potential threat), but I don't see where you find a good performance if we speak about Jasmine or Pryce. Steelix hurts you harder than you do him and threatens with a defence reduction. Against Clair, you do have good defences and resistances, but how are you going to deal damage? Poisonpowder again? "Stalling" is a poor word to use when describing Chikorita's capabilities, as it lacks sleep/paralysis, leeching, confusion (outside of Swagger). You don't even get Dig for Magnemites. If you get it fully promoted until Pryce you're good to go (not that anyone has trouble with Seal), but you're unlikely to take a STAB Blizzard from Piloswine and live to tell the tale, while Razor Leaf with that base spec. atk. is nothing to write home about.

First off, I I agree Cyndaquil > Chikorita, but as the person who tested Chikorita, I think you are underrated him.

Dynamicpunch has 50% accuracy, and all 3 starters have to worry about confusion hax. However Meganium's STAB is SE against Poliwrath, where as Wrath resists Surf/Flame Wheel.

Jasmine: As silly as this sounds, Meganim can take out both Magnemites if it has Mud-Slap (only time that move has relevance lol). Steelix does not out damage Meganium, Iron Tail is inaccurate and Razor Leaf hits Steelix on his lesser Special Defense.

Pryce: Megeanium may be weak to Ice, but Pryce is horrible underleveled and all of his Pokemon are weak to Razor Leaf. Seriously this guy is a joke to all 3 starters.

[atsync]

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

Also, what exactly does Quilava do to justify being High Tier? A Base 55 power move that lasts you a while is a lot better than being stuck with the same Base 35 Power move until Level thirty fucking one. Remember people complaining about Ember with Charmleon in the RBY tier list? Why is Quilava suddenly "omgsoawesome" because it has to deal with the same shit that Charmeleon does, only longer because it takes forever to get from Level 20 to Level 30 in GSC. Until that time, it's just sucking up experience until it gets that magical move. And what do you get at Level 31? A base 55 power move, something that Bayleef has been packing for the entire game.

The difference between RBY Charmeleon and GSC Quilava is that Quilava has 80 Special Attack, whereas 1st gen Charmeleon had only 65 Special (Attack). Quilava is also facing Pokemon that are at a much lower level than the Pokemon that Charmeleon was facing in Kanto, so Quilava's Ember is stronger as a result. Trust me, it doesn't have to "deal with the same shit that Charmeleon does" as far as using Fire moves is concerned, which you would probably know if you'd actually played either game extensively (some of your arguments appear to be borderline theorymon and they make me wonder if you've actually ever played GSC at all).

And to say that Quilava is ever "sucking up experience" is a stupid exaggeration because it not only implies that Quilava is complete deadweight, but that giving experience to Quilava to get to Typhlosion is useless in the long run. Neither is true.