OU CCAT- 3rd Edition VOTING DISCUSSION SEE #157

[bubbly]

Oh come on. Yes Sun stall is viable, and has various advantages and disadvantages over other kinds of stall (I would say more disadvantages but that's irrelevant). Quickstall is also viable in this meta; see my example team further up the page, see Electrolyte's sunstall, heck sunstall with SubSeed Venusaur (one of the most popular kinds) is a type of semi-quickstall. So I really don't want to see any more bs arguments saying one or the other is or isn't viable, unless you genuinely have some startling new evidence (and I'm telling you now, you don't).

So, next step? Now we've (hopefully) moved past that, there are a few options. We could decide on the basis of which will give more community discussion, creativity, innovation etc, or which would be more likely to succeed (less important for this project imo), or we could merge the concepts together as was suggested earlier. Sun-based quickstall is kinda cool, because quickstall really appreciates having catch-all walls like Cresselia on the team, and obviously various SubSeeding Chlorophyll mons and Sableye which benefit from Sun fit into the quickstall archetype comfortably.

[yee]

Originally Posted by Fat bubbly

So yeah this discussion is getting ridiculous. Look at the posts throughout this thread from me, Electrolyte, tehy, and a few other people about quickstall and you'll see it is much more defined and viable than you think.

For instance, here's a Hail based semi-quickstall team which has had me consistently hovering in the top 20 on PO (yeah it could be higher but I'm a terrible ladderer and have no time atm):

-Abomasnow (LSeed, Focus Punch, Ice Shard, Protect)
-Gliscor (Protect, Taunt, Toxic, Earthquake)
-Tentacruel (Scald, Toxic Spikes, Rapid Spin, Toxic)
-Heatran (Lava Plume, Stealth Rock, Toxic / WoW, Roar)
-Gengar (SubDisable / SubWoW depending on whether I feel like the 75% accuracy)
-Kyurem (SubRoost)

It doesn't have a transition mon, which is common in the quickstall archetype, but otherwise it fulfils the team style perfectly. I built it around Hail because as people have been saying, hazards are hard to maintain in this metagame (I use Toxic Spikes mainly to get the advantage over sand-based offense teams), so Hail is nice as an extra source of residual damage. Basically, the entire team bar my two entry hazards users abuses residual damage on a massive scale. It's kinda weak to Mamoswine and some other offensive mons if they have godly prediction, but you get the idea; it sacrifices the ability to hard wall stuff like stall is supposed to do (and which it can't in this meta anyway), for the ability to simply stall threats out. Hopefully this goes some way to stopping the "no one has used a viable quickstall team, it sucks" arguments.

Personally I just see that as a balanced team- it just seems like a Kyurem focused special attacking + residual damage goal.

I saw a post saying Hail stall wouldn't have very many options, and IMO that is very false. You actually have more than one option to spin which is very rare with Cloyster, Tenta and Starmie being usable (look into double spin with Cloyster), maybe soon Forry will get Overcoat too. Also, there's a bunch of interesting things like Froslass / Stallrein / Kyurem etc. to look into. The metagame is a bit broken to seriously run it but we could see some real creativity here.

To be blunt good luck finding anything other than a bog standard team that's actually competitive. You can make a small tweak in a set but that's all you're going to get.

[PDC]

To be honest sun stall is a unique and good play style if built correctly, but I don't think we should do something that simple for something like CCAT where we are catering to everyone, and not just a specific style. That really isn't by definition "Sun Stall" especially considering that with one change of Ninetails it turns into Rain Stall, although sun does give you the gift of playing around Rotom-W, Tornadus - T, and a bunch of other rain threats much easier. It is a pretty solid team, but I really don't think we should be doing something over this style. On that note, "Quick Stall" isn't really a play style much outside of old Ubers in DPPt, which I don't even remember the definition of. Not a good thing to make a CCAT around.

I really believe we should just do a different team style all together, maybe one a bit more simple but with specific and unique options to show more creativity with the more common play styles. Like we did with the previous two, we used a non-standard Pokemon and made a fantastic team out of it with a solid enough ingenuity and uniqueness for it to show many players that participate in it that you can use new and cool creative things even in more standard play styles without going so far as to try out an entire new one.

[tehy]

Originally Posted by Fat yee

Personally I just see that as a balanced team- it just seems like a Kyurem focused special attacking + residual damage goal.

I saw a post saying Hail stall wouldn't have very many options, and IMO that is very false. You actually have more than one option to spin which is very rare with Cloyster, Tenta and Starmie being usable (look into double spin with Cloyster), maybe soon Forry will get Overcoat too. Also, there's a bunch of interesting things like Froslass / Stallrein / Kyurem etc. to look into. The metagame is a bit broken to seriously run it but we could see some real creativity here.

To be blunt good luck finding anything other than a bog standard team that's actually competitive. You can make a small tweak in a set but that's all you're going to get.

Well, he did say semi-quickstall, which would be close to balance. Come to think of it, quickstall and balance both incorporate bulk and speed. I suppose the difference is that balance is a little more about having either, and attacking, and quickstall is a little more about having both, and stalling.

[Scarfwynaut]

In all seriousness though this does bring up a good point, you can't just have ninetails on for the sake of ninetails being there. Its late at the moment, but I am sure there are a few pokemon which ninetails takes care of on this stall team. Im sure I am missing something, but Ninetails can in theory be a great / shanky counter to the following pokemon:

-Venusaur
-Genesect (if you can keep rocks off the field)
-SD-Scizor
-CM Jirachi (?)
-NP-Thundurus-T (if rocks aren't up)
-Conkeldurr
-Abomasnow (wo)

It can also nicely scare away Ferrothorn and Forretress

So yeah, Ninetails isn't total shit, if you ever build a stall team you will realize that a few of those threats are actually quite potent, If we build around those strengths of ninetails from the get go, I am sure we will succeed.

[alexwolf]

Originally Posted by Fat bubbly

Oh come on. Yes Sun stall is viable, and has various advantages and disadvantages over other kinds of stall (I would say more disadvantages but that's irrelevant). Quickstall is also viable in this meta; see my example team further up the page, see Electrolyte's sunstall, heck sunstall with SubSeed Venusaur (one of the most popular kinds) is a type of semi-quickstall. So I really don't want to see any more bs arguments saying one or the other is or isn't viable, unless you genuinely have some startling new evidence (and I'm telling you now, you don't).

So, next step? Now we've (hopefully) moved past that, there are a few options. We could decide on the basis of which will give more community discussion, creativity, innovation etc, or which would be more likely to succeed (less important for this project imo), or we could merge the concepts together as was suggested earlier. Sun-based quickstall is kinda cool, because quickstall really appreciates having catch-all walls like Cresselia on the team, and obviously various SubSeeding Chlorophyll mons and Sableye which benefit from Sun fit into the quickstall archetype comfortably.

Bubbly i don't think that anyone said sun stall isn't viable. The main reason against it, is that it has little room for chosing something non standard, like only 2 slots. So as i said again when we start teambuilding you know what will happen? After choosing Tales, we will chose Cresselia and Sableye, then one out of 2 possible spinners, and then maybe there will be room for some real conversation... So we want to make a CCAT project to discuss about 2 slots in a team?

EDIT: Sry then bubbly for not getting what you meant.

[bubbly]

Lol that's been my exact argument since sunstall was put forward. Please read what I write more carefully...I wasn't supporting either type, and especially not sunstall, I was just trying to get rid of the arguments which have been coming up saying that one or the other actually can't be successful (or more accurately in sun stall's case, that anything but the bog standard Stunt archetype can't be successful).

Like I said, I agree with you completely about the lack of options on sunstall, although you're exaggerating it a little - so if we did decide to choose on the basis of possibility for innovation etc, we'd choose quickstall or a spin-off. Problem is, this isn't likely to happen, so I tried to put in a few grounds for a compromise.

[tehy]

Originally Posted by Fat Scarfwynaut

In all seriousness though this does bring up a good point, you can't just have ninetails on for the sake of ninetails being there. Its late at the moment, but I am sure there are a few pokemon which ninetails takes care of on this stall team. Im sure I am missing something, but Ninetails can in theory be a great / shanky counter to the following pokemon:

-Venusaur
-Genesect (if you can keep rocks off the field)
-SD-Scizor
-CM Jirachi (?)
-NP-Thundurus-T (if rocks aren't up)
-Conkeldurr
-Abomasnow (wo)

It can also nicely scare away Ferrothorn and Forretress

So yeah, Ninetails isn't total shit, if you ever build a stall team you will realize that a few of those threats are actually quite potent, If we build around those strengths of ninetails from the get go, I am sure we will succeed.

Very shaky for venusaur, thundurus T, . Abomasnow should do well against it too, and CM jirachi can probably just boost and then sub on it-mindgames with WoW, i suppose, or maybe roar it if it can even do that. I don't even think it can do that much to conkeldurr, other than hit it hard.

It's not TOTAL shit, it's just much more preferable to use another pokemon. You can say almost all of that for heatran;it's got trouble taking superpowers from SDzor and EQ's from aboma, but then there's that whole "higher spatk, SR, resist to dragon" thing it's got going.

Stairfall, you should also mention he has sleep powder, which gives him a great way to get that initial sub. Most subseeders have that problem of being unable to force out a stubborn opponent, but jumpluff steals said stubborness with the serenity of sleep.

[StairFall]

While I love the idea of sun and quick stall I simply have to agree with what others have said recently on the sort of archetype of sun stall that had been proposed. A stall team that happens to run ninetales to screw over Keldeo and the genies/therians isn't sun stall, it's standard stall with a counter weather. Sun stall would be dumb crap like chesto rest harvest tropius.

Also I find it funny how Jumpluff has been dismissed from the discussion on the basis of it's defences. Under sun he's the fastest seeder outside of whimsi and can set up near infinite subs. It doesn't matter if he can't take a hit, the point is he never will.

[bubbly]

Lol no one has suggested Tropius. Even if I have happen to have a soft spot for him :) But yeah, Jumpluff is pretty cool, the obvious problem is that it faces competition from Venusaur, who has better bulk, a SR neutrality, and the ability to absorb Toxic Spikes. Imo Jumpluff shouldn't be used unless you also have Tentacruel or Nidoqueen on the team. That said, it does have some major advantages; massive speed with Encore means that if you predict correctly no set up sweeper can hurt you, and Encore also means that once you get going the opponent has a hard time reclaiming momentum.

The thing about Jump not needing decent defenses is basically at the heart of quickstall; it usually uses a few pure walls but these are mainly just for the early game period while you set hazards. If you play well the amount of hits which actually connect with a pokemon, rather than a Substitute, should be close to zero as you get into the mid-late game.

[StairFall]

Oh I wasn't suggesting tropius either (I have a soft spot for him too, and a belief he should be grass/dragon) I was merely saying that the type of sun stall that's constantly come up in this thread have been teams where the sun rarely does anything for the team besides disable the other team's weather which is actually a huge blow rather then a minor inconvenience because of how weather oriented the meta is. Like others in the thread have said, it isn't sun stall: It's stall with sun added to mess up the genies/therians/keldeo.

[Pocket]

Closing this thread, since "pick team strategy first" apparently doesn't work well