Hardest Relative NPC

[Wobbanaut]

Has anyone mentioned Cheren yet?

Although he seems kinda weak at first there aren't many trainers to grind on. When I first started playing and learnt that Riolu were in Flocessy Ranch I felt relieved and then I realised it doesn't learn any fighting moves early on. The fact that he has a semi decent boosting move that early in the game is riduculous and so is STAB Tackle, and Counter is very unreliable well those are my two cents what do you guys think

EDIT: And pretty much all Boss Trainers from Area 7 onwards in Black Tower

[Present]

Originally Posted by Fat Wobbanaut

Has anyone mentioned Cheren yet?

Although he seems kinda weak at first there aren't many trainers to grind on. When I first started playing and learnt that Riolu were in Flocessy Ranch I felt relieved and then I realised it doesn't learn any fighting moves early on. The fact that he has a semi decent boosting move that early in the game is riduculous and so is STAB Tackle, and Counter is very unreliable well those are my two cents what do you guys think

EDIT: And pretty much all Boss Trainers from Area 7 onwards in Black Tower

I didn't find him that difficult, but my brother did. He fell to him quite some times. Mainly because Cheren seems to know when you are about to use counter and keeps boosting up. When my brother got tired of using counter, Cheren started attacking. On another try, Cheren stopped boosting as soon as he could ko the opponent, and then started attacking.

[TM13IceBeam]

Originally Posted by Fat R_N

Cheren seems to have exactly two outputs:
1. People beat him with complete ease. Maybe they're lowering stats, maybe through sheer power, maybe through luck. There are no issues
2. People are destroyed by him. Repeatedly!

There is no middle ground

he speaks the truth

[Swamp-Rocket]

I have a couple ones that I thought were hard.

Tate and Liza in Emerald were absolute pains to deal with. Claydol + Xatu was really hard for me to take down for some reason...

Ghetsis's Hydreigon - It outsped my Durant and OHKOed my Swanna with a neutral attack, which is insane for an in-game Pokemon.

The Kimino Girls in HGSS were really hard too, and screw that Archen guy in BW - STAB Acrobatics from 112 base attack really hurts D:

Whitney was pretty hard for me as a kid but she's gotten easier for me.

Special Mention: There was this one trainer in Drayden's Gym in BW2 with a Fraxure set of Swagger / Dual Chop / SUBSTITUTE /Protect. Of course, I couldn't OHKO it, I got hit by confusion, every time I hit it used Protect and when it used Substitute I almost reset my game. It wasn't really that hard, but it was probably the most painful battle I've ever done.

[rocky505]

Norman would used to be a major pain to me whenever I chose mudkip or treecko. Combusken could handle him with bulk up/ double kick.

[x42bn6]

Originally Posted by Fat Swamp-Rocket

I have a couple ones that I thought were hard.

Tate and Liza in Emerald were absolute pains to deal with. Claydol + Xatu was really hard for me to take down for some reason...

I thought I could go into that battle with two Surfers and giggle at Claydol, Lunatone and Solrock. I didn't expect Claydol's bulk to be that high (especially after Light Screen), and it got even worse when Lunatone used Sunny Day. Discovering for the first time that Sun reduced the power of Water attacks wasn't fun. Discovering Solarbeam was a one-turn attack under Sun was even less fun.

A little rant on Whitney...

For me, Whitney was hard for the first time because... You never expect it. Up to this point, including RBY, Gym Leaders were fairly easy (except perhaps Misty's Starmie and Sabrina's Alakazam in Yellow, if the AI actually picked the correct moves) and at worst you could Revive spam and wait for the AI to pick a stupid move. Falkner and Bugsy were hardly that difficult.

However, Whitney is capable of taking out a Geodude with Rollout and unless you stock up on healing items, Geodude will eventually lose as Miltank has reliable recovery.

But I suppose that's the point - you never expect it. Up to this point, the vast majority of Gym Leaders have been easy. You are not going to load up one of the most expensive items in the Goldenrod Department Store (Revive). You are not going to stock up on Super Potions (which is a losing battle anyway against Rollout), either. You might buy a few extra items, true, but "a few items" are not enough against Whitney. Strategies like spamming X Defend don't necessarily spring to mind as a child, either, and you are begging for a base power 480 critical hit to happen if you try.

The fact you might need a trade (Machop) to reliably beat Whitney is quite scary - anyone who didn't catch anywhere close to 150 (151) in the original game probably wouldn't have made use of those trades in RBY, so it's not something that is obvious.

Also, Norman's Slaking was nasty in Emerald, especially in Nuzlockes, because of Counter. I spammed X Defend and X Attack on my Swellow for the first time in this battle, and was about to attack Slaking before I wondered, at the last moment... Maybe Slaking would survive a +6 Wing Attack? I instead used Double Team... Slaking used Counter... I then hit it with Wing Attack - and Slaking survived. I'd never been that relieved before.

[Organization Member XIV]

For me, it would have to be Lenora. I was still a noob when I first bought B/W, so I didn't really know what to do aside from spam SE moves. I did NOT go in there expecting a 140 Base Power move before calculating in STAB on the first turn, so yeah. Though now she's a breeze for me. But back then, man.

[DEMo_Gorgon47]

My biggest fear for Slaking is that if I don't attack that turn, what if he uses Focus Punch? (Especially Nuzlocke Runs). I'll be screwed for sure! But what if I do attack and he uses counter, I'm screwed again! And Combusken isn't that reliable of a check because it can only set up Bulk Ups against Spinda, who can spam Teeter Dance and Dizzy Punch causing you to be KO'd through confusion.

Lenora still kicks my ass in B/W, unless I catch a Roggenrola, as that thing tanks ingame.

Anyone else think the Maxie+Tabitha battle in Emerald was hard? I mean, maybe on a normal run it would be easier, but what about a Nuzlocke run? Who here can honestly say they have gotten through that fight without losing at least one member of their team? And Steven never helps, his Metang just sits there like a fat piece of trash as Maxie & Tabitha spam high powered STAB moves that either crit you or flinch you.

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat DEMo_Gorgon47

My biggest fear for Slaking is that if I don't attack that turn, what if he uses Focus Punch? (Especially Nuzlocke Runs). I'll be screwed for sure! But what if I do attack and he uses counter, I'm screwed again! And Combusken isn't that reliable of a check because it can only set up Bulk Ups against Spinda, who can spam Teeter Dance and Dizzy Punch causing you to be KO'd through confusion.

Protect says hi for Slaking.

[DEMo_Gorgon47]

How many Pokemon actually have protect at that point in the game?

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat DEMo_Gorgon47

How many Pokemon actually have protect at that point in the game?

Pelipper and Dustox both get it, as does Torkoal iirc.

[TM13IceBeam]

And all three are pretty bad in the long term, and Pelipper is best used as a HM slave.

[Antihaxxer]

Torkoal confirmed + Curse = Great combo

[TM13IceBeam]

Originally Posted by Fat Antihaxxer

Torkoal confirmed + Curse = Great combo

considering how fire-unfriendly the routes after Lilycove is, i'd beg to disagree. it's literally a haven for grass-types...

[ElectivireRocks]

Articuno in RBY is exceptionally difficult if you attempt to capture it at the earliest opportunity.
Its Ice Beam is extremely powerful, even water and fire types can get hurt badly.

[Antihaxxer]

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

considering how fire-unfriendly the routes after Lilycove is, i'd beg to disagree. it's literally a haven for grass-types...

Yes you're right. Fire type have a really bad time after Lilycove, and Torkoal is not so good for that an in game run ... Bur if you have problem with Slaking, Torkoal could help that's all :)

Numel / Camerupt with a overlevelling can do better with STAB Earthquake against all Water types (especially all thoses Tentacool) but have problems with Gyarados and Pelipper (Intimidate reduces Rock Slide power) but has also a nasty x4 weakness to water

[TM13IceBeam]

Originally Posted by Fat Antihaxxer

Yes you're right. Fire type have a really bad time after Lilycove, and Torkoal is not so good for that an in game run ... Bur if you have problem with Slaking, Torkoal could help that's all :)

Numel / Camerupt with a overlevelling can do better with STAB Earthquake against all Water types (especially all thoses Tentacool) but have problems with Gyarados and Pelipper (Intimidate reduces Rock Slide power) but has also a nasty x4 weakness to water

Hence how all three are bad in the long term, with Pelipper at most receiving utility as a HM slave due to being able to use Surf/Dive/Fly/Waterfall.

[Hemp Man]

Protect isn't that great against Slaking, he has good bulk and Protect has limited PP.

[TM13IceBeam]

Originally Posted by Fat Hemp Man

Protect isn't that great against Slaking, he has good bulk and Protect has limited PP.

iirc you should have grabbed some Ethers or Leppa Berries along the way, it'll be a good time to use it. Slaking's sheer power is seriously worthy of making it That One Boss.

Lairon is probably your best chance of easily beating it without Protect (and as an added bonus it gets it when you overgrind ._.) You could also use Toxic TM, although I doubt Aggron's the best user of Toxic...

[rocky505]

Originally Posted by Fat DEMo_Gorgon47

My biggest fear for Slaking is that if I don't attack that turn, what if he uses Focus Punch? (Especially Nuzlocke Runs). I'll be screwed for sure! But what if I do attack and he uses counter, I'm screwed again! And Combusken isn't that reliable of a check because it can only set up Bulk Ups against Spinda, who can spam Teeter Dance and Dizzy Punch causing you to be KO'd through confusion.

ever heard of full heal, persim berries or the herb that cures status conditions?

[King Serperior]

I used a Trapinch with Dig. Allowed damage while the AI spammed Focus Punch.

Works for 10 turns, but that's enough to stall out the Punches for a while.

[Arcticblast]

The thing to do with Norman's Slaking is NEVER MISS THAT SON OF A BITCH WHEN IT CAN MOVE. Most of the time, after I figured out how Truant worked, I would use Marshtomp and alternate Mud Shot (stronger but innacurate) with Water Gun (weaker but accurate) and take some of the Truant turns to heal.

[celever]

Ok, just 4 (well, 5) asses I've noticed.
Claire in heartgold and soulsilver. I've actually had to reset the game on speedruns for this bitch. I'd start with totodile so I could get ice fang, and then I'd look up on bulbapedia all of the pokemon that can learn pretty strong ice attack around level 35-40. I'd go out and catch them all, get to Claire and still die!? I reset the game after 5 more attempts, and instead of a speedrun just said: "Right, I don't care if it takes me days, I am going to beat her!" So when I got to goldenrod, I spent days getting enough coins in the game corner for Dratini, and trained him vigorously throughout the game, along with my ice fanged croconaw (by that stage) and a couple of others, I then succeeded against Claire, and got to my second person...

Lance in heartgold and soulsilver: You have got to be kidding me, I just beat the bitchiest dragon trainer you can have, and here comes another dragon!? Only this time, the dragons are buffed, and there are only 3 of them!!! He didn't even have the courtesy to make them all dragons, he had a charizard, aerodactyl and Gyarados as well!? I didn't have one super-effective attack for his gyarados, and though I was prepared for Aerodactyl with ice attacks, he was a proper *********** and would OHKO - 2HKO my pokemon, every one, and then once I got the areodactyl down, there came Charizard!!! Not to mention, who the hell packs flail on a Gyarados!? What use is that, he doesn't even have an impressive speed stat, I'd get him down to the wire with my not very effective attacks and he'd flail on me, I brought out a mach punch and he just survived!? Uncool man, uncool. Besides, who the hell packs three of the same pokemon on one team, with different moves so your opponent doesn't have a clue in hell which is which!? Besides, the main thing I ended up using was spore (don't judge me) but then I found out that his Dragonite (one of them) knows SAFEGUARD!!! He must be the only champion or member of the elite four with such an annoying attack!!! I could go on for days about this stupid thing, but I'll get onto my third memory of the haunt (er)!

Lucian from diamond and pearl: I mean, come on! The 3 members of the elite four, were not efficient training, and I actually abandoned pokemon diamond because of him. (Platinum was easy as hell). I'd pick Diamond up again probably for a period every 2 or 3 months, try Lucian a couple more times, start the journey again (losing to my last people in the process) get to Lucian and BHAM, frustration and quitting. I remember one time very vigorously, because I was about to beat him and dastard Bronzong, but in my excitement I used an ULTRA BALL instead of a full restore!!! The game should really have some kind of box saying: You cannot steal a trainer's pokemon", especially in the elite four where it is probably an accident, rather than using up a turn for it. I am ashamed of that moment... That Bronzong is my worst nightmare, he would float there, mocking me because he was clearly superior to my party, another annoying thing was having to use some of your full restores because of the battles before, I ended up short on cash in the end, and then it ended. I lost. I had no money for full restores - max revives - nothing. I had to restart the game again, but I couldn't be bothered to run through it, at that point pokemon ended up seeming drab, and I wanted nothing to do with it anymore (until the Pichu with a ukulele swayed me some years later) and I put down the DS, switched it off without saving and pulled out the game cartridge. I put it in a draw somewhere (to be found there, waiting some years later) and left it. I still had fond memories of pokemon, and carried on with the trading card game, but that Lucian.. if I could have got a gun and shot him then I would, happily. However, the story doesn't end there, since I managed to beat him in late 2011/early 2012. Despite my affiliations with the aforementioned dragons, I enjoyed heartgold lots, and would time myself (though I'm still pretty damn bad at training, and the best I got was about 2 weeks XD) but I went through my various things one day and found the dreaded game, pokemon diamond. I went through the game again, with that Lucian and his weird metal robot seemingly fresh in my mind, and I got to the elite four, completed the first 3 and... Lost to Lucian AGAIN!!! My pokemon battling skills had improved massively since my days on diamond and I still lost!!! But, an amazing idea struck me, by then I'd upgraded to the DSi, but I never sold my original DS. This means that, since wireless works on both (but not the microphone, I used to have some kind of fun with chatter before it broke!) I could trade my buffed up heartgold team, over to Diamond (while keeping some all-stars in diamond) and beat that purple-haired maniac. I traded over Gligar, Graveller (who turned into Golem) amd my level 97 Scyther and the three legendary birds. Now, you hear level 97 Scyther and think, so, an overpowered team here... Nope. In-game, I decided to take some advice from Bugsy and went and caught a Scyther and trained only him, then I needed an HM slave, and grabbed a graveller, and then I caught and trained a Gligar later on because he's awesome, and there was a winning trio right there, which stormed Claire pretty well on that particular run-through, and Lance has a horrible weakness to stealth rock, let me put it that way. I tried to use Scyther as little as possible, mainly to train the others after I trade them back to heartgold, but of course I ended up Scyther! (Mine happened to have technician as well, which while new to me is seriously great in-game with him learning attacks like wing attack naturally, and then U-turn via TM) and then Cynthia was a breeze. Seriously, I still had quite a lot of trouble with Lucian, but Cynthia? She was way to easy! I then tried it with my diamond team + Scyther and boy oh boy. Scyther was there for Lucian (he could do almost do it on his own, 3-4 pokemon down and I could handle the rest just about) and then had my Diamond team, with five pokemon because I didn't use Scyther at all, challenge Cynthia and it was easy! They got their jobs the wrong way round, Lucian for champion all the way!

Anyway, this is my list of the trainers that should go to hell, pronto.

P.S I've read back through this thread, and hwo the hell am I the only one to mention Lucian!? He is the reincarnation of nightmares (ironically using psychic types), more so than Darkrai!!!

[AccidentalGreed]

I think we can pretty much all agree that all the normal-type gym leaders (with the prime exception of Cheren) were ridiculously hectic to battle.

Everybody hates Whitney, everybody hates Norman, etc.

[Gokuzbu]

Lucian wasn't hard at all