RU Research Week #13: Absol, Pinsir, Ditto, and Carracosta

[Molk]

Some rules and stuff stolen from Honko and August ;_;


Keep the following things in mind during every Research Group:

• Be open-minded, don't just say something is terrible and walk away unless it is Dusknoir or Munchlax; look at its stats, movepool, and typing and think something up!

• Feel free to theorymon early in the research period, but make it clear you're doing so. Later in the period though, you will be expected to back up your posts with hard evidence like logs, actual sets, perhaps even teams.

• Just because an analysis has been done for a Pokemon doesn't mean there isn't more to explore; it's very likely that something has gone unnoticed.

• Do not post in this thread complaining about the Pokemon I choose and/or suggesting ones we should do for future weeks. Like I said before, feel free to VM / PM me these suggestions, but don't expect me to always listen to you.

The main point of this is to see how some lesser seen RU pokemon fare in the current metagame. Each research week will actually be 2 one week long stages. In the first stage, you are free to theorymon about the pokemon chosen for Research week and talk about what roles / niches they fill and how they fare in the metagame. The second week, feel free to post logs showcasing how the pokemon fared in standard play and talk about how they did in comparison to expectations etc. This extends to IRC, where you can talk about the pokemon / sets you used in either #rarelyused or #pokemon!

The Research Group Challenge:


In order to participate you must do the following:

Post here or send me a PM with a fresh alt and the name(s) of the Pokemon you will be using.

Use at least one of the Pokemon being researched.

Post your experiences with the Pokemon you're using, participate in the discussion!

This Week's Research Pokemon:


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Hall Of Fame:

If you do very well with a certain Research Week Pokemon, you have a shot at entering the hall of fame! To get into the Hall Of Fame, you must get to a certain ranking on the mighty PS! ladder. There are multiple classes in the Hall Of Fame and which one you fall under will depend on how high on the ladder you got, there is also a deviation requirement to make a little more challenging! Make sure to post a screenshot of your ranking as well as a paragraph or two on the Pokemon and set you used, if either of these are not met, i will not put you in the Hall Of Fame until they are! The minimum ranking to get into the Hall Of Fame is an acre of at least 1800 with a deviation of 80, naturally, higher ladder score turns into higher Hall Of Fame ranking, so get to work! Btw, the registration form for the Research Week challenge is underneath this in hide tags!

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Pokemon Showdown Username: Mr. Man
Hall of Fame Standing: none
Rarely-Rarely Used Pokemon Currently Working With: Absol
Current Ladder Standing: none because this isnt my real alt

Hall Of Fame Archive:

Bronze Rank: 1800 - 1899 with one or more Research Week Pokemon

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speed ghilliesniper - Peak 1801, #27, speedyg (Used Absol and Pinsir) Post: http://tinyurl.com/bqooknd

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Pocket - Peak 1808, #10, Aburame (Used Pinsir) Post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...9&postcount=24

Silver Rank: 1900 - 1999 with one or more Research Week Pokemon

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Slory - Peak 1965, #5, Essentials (Used Absol) Post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...2&postcount=18

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TropiOUs - Peak 1901, #6, The Darknite (Used Absol) Post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...0&postcount=16

Gold Rank: 2000 - 2099 with one or more Research Week Pokemon

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Col49 - Peak 2015, #4, Disaster Hearts (Used Absol and Carracosta) Post: http://tinyurl.com/cyp589h

Platinum Rank: 2100+ with one or more Research Week Pokemon

GOD Rank: 2150+ with two or more Research Week Pokemon

The Hall Of Fame Archive Has One Entry!

Lastly, remember that these are not the only sets you can test during research week! Feel free to be even more creative than the challenges, and in general just discuss the pokemon!

[Oiawesome]

Ill be using all of them on the Alt BANPIGNITE!Expect this post to be updated when im done.

[Silvershadow234]

In as ban sandslash with all of them.

[Slory]

With Absol as Essensials

[cirlo]

In as Ikea with Absol.

[col49]

in
Pokemon Showdown Username: disaster hearts
Hall of Fame Standing: Gold
Rarely-Rarely Used Pokemon Currently Working With: Absol+Carracosta (used Pinsir and Ditto quite a bit already :/ )
Current Ladder Standing: 2015 (+78)

[speed ghilliesniper]

In.
Pokemon Showdown Username: speedyg
Hall of Fame Standing: Bronze
Rarely-Rarely Used Pokemon Currently Working With: Absol and Pinsir
Current Ladder Standing: 1801

[Endorfins]

IN
Alt: Abstain
Using Absol for now

[TropiOUs]

Doing this because it has Absol.

Alt:The Darknite

[col49]

Got'em :]

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So I got Gold pretty quickly with a really chill win record, and I suck, so that certainly says something about the 'mons of this RW :P As a quick insight to my team structure, I ran my two RW 'mons in a heavy offense team, using Smeargle for fast hazards, CB Spiritomb because he's a champion that fills a handful of roles easy, my super-gimmicky Lunar Dance Cress to sponge up various attacks and give any given 'mon another lease on life, and Sceptile to help out with bulky waters and of course check the mighty SubSeed Whimsicott. That being said, I'll delve into the RW 'mons, the sets I used, and my experiences with them.


Absol @ Life Orb
Trait | Super Luck
EVs | 244 Atk / 12 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature | Naughty
- Sucker Punch
- Night Slash
- Superpower
- Fire Blast

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Real talk, I already knew how amazing Absol was in the RU metagame :P A huge Attack stat, complimented by STAB Sucker Punch and solid overall coverage makes Absol a menace from society, a boy on the hood. Since I really just stole a fairly accepted set (barring tossing 8 extra EVs to SpA to guarantee the OHKO of 248 HP / 8 SpD Esca unconditionally, because I know full well that if I didn't I would roll min damage ;-; ), there isn't much to really elaborate on. However, the idea of the set is that Fire Blast is capable of smashing common switch-in's to Absol, including but not limited to Steelix, Tangrowth, Escavalier, and Durant.

Having used Absol quite a bit before the reintroduction of Durant and Cresselia, I can say that despite the tier shifts (and the changes that came with it) Absol still stands as a very useful 'mon in the metagame. Dark typing is now more than ever a very desirable trait in a 'mon, being able to keep Cresselia in check. Pursuit (though I didn't use it in this particular team) is also a quite useful trait, being able to shave off 55%+ from even the most physically defensive 'Cress dipping out, making it much more manageable for offensively oriented teams that are plagued by it. The increasing popularity of 'mons such as Poliwrath and Drapion are definitely irritating to Absol, and having to nail Durant on the switch with Fire Blast if anything is a pain, but they in no way take away from Absol's overall effectiveness in the tier. All in all, a very good 'mon imo.

Carracosta @ Splash Plate
Trait | Solid Rock
EVs | 20 HP / 252 Atk / 236 Spe
Nature | Adamant
- Shell Smash
- Stone Edge
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet

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So unlike Absol, I had never used Carracosta before in RU prior to this. Though I'd like to consider myself an open-minded person, I was admittedly rather hesitant about using it seriously, thinking it would essentially fall in as a less versatile Kabutops. However, I was pleasantly surprised, as Carracosta was more than pulling his weight once I learned how to play it. It's extra bulk, in addition to Solid Rock, make Carracosta quite resilient to attacks, giving it a handful of opportunities to set up. Despite his rather abysmal Speed stat, Aqua Jet made up for it quite well, being able to pick off several common Choice Scarf users at +2 with a little residual damage. For example, Primeape takes 84% minimum from a +2 Aqua Jet, allowing it to be picked off easy after SR+Spikes damage. Similar cases can be made with Manetric (81.13 - 95.37%) and Rotom (77.27 - 91.73%). That in mind, the biggest roadblocks to Carracosta's sweep were fast Grass-types such as Sceptile and (Choice Scarf) Rotom-C, and dedicated physical walls such as Tangrowth and Poliwrath, with the former option being pretty easily dismantled by simply using Stone Edge out of the gate. For reference, my EV spread outpaces Base 95's after a Shell Smash, allowing it to outpace Pokemon such as Drapion, Jynx, and Uxie. Finding White Herb to be generally unhelpful a large amount of the time, I decided upon Splash Plate, which helps push some very important damage without the bulk compromising issues presented by Life Orb.

[Molk]

:o, congrats col49! You are the first hall of famer to make it in with Absol and Carracosta, awesome! Ill update the hall of fame with your username and a link to your post right away :3.

So anyways, i think i fought you 3 times on the ladder during this, and i ended up losing all 3 because of a combination of sloppy play and that lunar dance cresselia screwing me over vs carracosta ;_;. I actually have one question for you though, about carracosta.

Have you ever considered trying a life orb Shell Smash set with Ice Beam>waterfall? I personally really like it despite the obvious drawback of Life Orb+lowered defenses, for one thing, it has the ability to OHKO tangrowth and reliably get past Lilligant and unscarfed rotom-C without missing. The extra power from Life Orb also really helps out when you look at the unboosted Pokemon that outspeed Carracosta at +2 (protip: they are all OHKOed by +2 LO Aqua Jet after Stealth Rock). This more than makes up for the fact that Carracosta is slow as fuck, the splash plate set looks cool as well, though!

Another thought relating to carracosta that i had last night is how it would fare running a Stealth Rock set. Carracosta is really, really bulky, especially on the physical side, and has solid rock to further augment its bulk, this means that the turtle would probably have plenty of time to set up Stealth Rock even with just 252 hp investment. From there you could either use an offensive tank set with Waterfall/Stone Edge/Aqua Jet, or a more defensive varient, im not 100% sure yet, but it seems cool!

Also, just because a person gets into the hall of fame with a certain set doesnt mean that you cant get into the hall of fame with the same set or a similar one, so you can enter with Absol and still get hall of fame status! Hall Of Famers are free to make another account and ladder with different pokemon in the research week as well, so feel free to enter again haha!

Oh btw, you can also ladder further on your existing alt to get a higher rank if you want, forgot that

[col49]

Thanks Molk :] I did think about using Ice Beam for a while (I'm super prone to Stone Edge misses), but in the end it just broke down to a matter of preference I suppose. The way I played Carracosta I was almost never setting up 'til pretty late into a game (usually throwing out Stone Edge/Aqua Jet), while aiming to paralyze stuff like Sceptile and Rotom-C w/Cress. Beating Tangrowth was definitely cool, and while it can usually get lured by Absol it's still a pain to play around, I just really liked having Waterfall for a consistent Water STAB for Fighting-types, as well as for smashing through stuff like Steelix at +2. LO is definitely cool, and I like that it helps net some cool KO's with Aqua Jet, I just really don't like the recoil ;-; Still, I'll definitely try it out! I've been trying to find an excuse to use the tank set for a bit now, might try it out on some random test alt later if nobody else does. It's special bulk is meh (it needs 80 SpD EVs to safely survive 2 Moltres Hurricanes :/), but it's Defense is great, even uninvested.
252+ Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Carracosta: 244-289 (69.31 - 82.1%)
!_!

[spuds4ever]

Gonna have a go at getting back into RU under alt: BackWithABang

Using: Ditto

[speed ghilliesniper]

Got bronze rank, along with the highest ladder score and rank I'v had in RU so I'm happy.

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I originally built a team with Pinsir as a cleaner, and got to the 1600's before I stalled out. Then I tried both Absol and Pinsir on the same team which stayed around the same at first, dipping into the 1500's at the end. The team I did the majority of the laddering with in the end was just Absol with a Cresselia, Nidoqueen, Smeargle, Durant, and Kabutops which is what I had by far the most success with.

My thoughts on the research pokes and sets I used:


Pinsir @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Moxie
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor

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Scarf Moxie is a very terrifying duo, threatening to cause one misplay to snowball quickly if ones not careful. I really like this set a lot and had fun using it, but it did have it's issues. Poor coverage on it's moves meant that it very rarely took out more than 2 pokes before something came in that I couldn't 1HKO, even after a boost or 2. It's relatively lackluster speed isn't that great, and while the scarf helps to mitigate this issue faster threats like Sceptile and powerful priority like Entei's ExtremeSpeed still threaten to stop the stag beetle cold. Still, being able to outspeed a good part of the un-boosted metagame and threaten many things, including the newly dropped Cresselia, is very valuable. However, I often found it's a double edged sword as 1 mis play by the users part can often lead to any momentum being stopped cold and often the killing of Pinsir or one of his teammates having to take a shot.

Tl;dr: It's a fun pokemon to use, good at cleaning up late game, but at the same time is very high risk high reward.

Absol @ Life Orb
Trait: Super Luck
EVs: 252 HP/Atk / 4 Atk/SAtk / 252 Spd
Adamant / Naughty Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Night Slash
- Superpower
- Swords Dance / Fire Blast

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Well, the non bold text is my set imported from PS, which I now realize is completely wrong ev's with 252 into HP rather than attack, which makes me even more amazed at the power of this thing afte playing like this. I'v put in bold the changes I plan to make now after seeing this. With no attack investment other than nature it still hit hard, although I did find the power lacking which is why I did swords dance the majority of the on this set; although Fire Blast did see some use as a steelix lure when stall teams were running around. I can't say much with out truly using it to it's fullest except it's very powerful and it brings the much needed dark typing to a team to counter Cresselia, plus STAB priority in Sucker Punch. All in all a beast of a pokemon that I look fore-ward to using more and reporting back when I really test it out to it's full potential.

Tl;dr: I'm an idiot and accidentally used the wrong EV's. Absol is a beast, and I plan to fix it (in bold) and go back to test it some more to get a better feel for it.

[Molk]

Congrats on your hall of fame entry Speed! Ive added your entry to the hall of fame entry under bronze rank, make sure to post again with a new screenshot if you get higher! Because ive already used absol extensively, ill focus my questioning on pinsir, because i find him to be quite underrated from what ive seen of him. I cant think of any questions right now, but ill be sure to edit some in so this post isnt totally useless haha!

[TropiOUs]

k, got this with the only mon I care about and the best set ever:

WHY THE FUCK IS THIS STILL NU?????? (Absol) @ Life Orb
Trait: Super Luck
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SAtk
Naive Nature
- Night Slash
- Sucker Punch
- Superpower
- Fire Blast
Probably saw this coming considering is the only set I use since the day I came up with Fire Blast as a joke to troll tangela NU. Except that this time I went naive to troll Adamant Kabutops and ohko it with Superpower or OHKO it with Sucker Punch before it Aqua jets this cutie.

This guy was also a pretty cool partner for Sigilyph, Cinccino, and Mothim(This was actually random shit that I wanted to try for some reason) by eliminating each other counters pretty well. Absol also beats like most of the ladder by itself, seriously, I can go down 4-1 and keep this guy healthy and still win against most of the ladder.


I'm making this ru because it deserves it . Hope you nu guys enjoyed absol while it was there.

[Molk]

okay trop, i added your hall of fame entry with absol :3! Cool idea with running naive Absol to take out a few of absol's most common checks with sucker punch before they can hit you with their priority, going to have to try that out sometime. Also, i was wondering if you have tried any of the other absol sets, namely LO SD, Lum SD, lol shitty scarf, and lol even shittier band, if so, how did they compare to Fire Blast absol? Also, im going to to enter Research Week myself under an alt that i wont disclose until further notice :3.

[Slory]

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http://s1353.beta.photobucket.com/us...sials.png.html

I got Silver rank, maybe I would try to get Gold rank, but I get wrecked by two haxed battles, and I am more interesting in test other Research Week Pokemon, mostly Pinsir. I have used Absol onto on a offensive team, and I paired it with Cinccino; Cinccino + Mixed Absol is a very good core in this metagame, I will talk more about it later. I use Uxie to set up Stealth Rock, cripple things with Thunder Wave, that helps a lot Absol, and keep the offensive momentum with U-turn. Finally, I use a FWG core, in the form of Entei, Kabutops and Rotom-C. Rotom-C is a very important key on this team, since completes my mini-Volturn core that help a lot to gradually weakening the other team, and Expert Belt set its pretty good in this metagame and pretty fun, since lure into Choice version.




Absol @ Life Orb
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SAtk
Naughty Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Night Slash
- Superpower
- Fire Blast

Not only I use Mixed Absol because I have seen that other players use it succesfully, I use Mixed Absol since helps a lot Cinccino. Mixed Absol lure and remove troublesome walls for Cinccino like Tangrowth, Escavalier, Ferroseed, Steelix, Misdreavus, Cresselia or Aggron for example. Cinccino also helps with problematic Pokemon for Absol like Poliwrath. U-turn for Cinccino also helps that Absol can swiitch without problems and have much more durability. About the set, I run Naughty since the extra power help a lot to me, for example, to hit harder things like Cresselia that without it, becomes to be annoying. The moveset its pretty standard and self-explanation. Really, Absol its pretty good Pokemon in this metagame and deserve more love; even witout Swords Dance its capable of destroy unprepare defensive teams and cripple offensive teams with Sucker Punch.

[Yonko7]

In as Manbug and using Pinsir.

Since its still the first week, I'll theory mon a little.



Swords Dance Pinsir seems like the most underrated, and with Jolly + Moxie the power loss is quickly lost, but Pinsir does have a hard time setting up as it doesn't have any appealing resistances other than Fighting(?). To me, it seems that a team focused around paralysis support, coupled with keeping Stealth Rock off the field is needed. A slow U-turn / Volt Switch partner is also nice. Lanturn seems a good fit for the slow Volt Switch, and can take on Moltres if they try to fry Pinsir.

Having Adamant seems overkill in a way, and the Speed given by Jolly lets Pinsir outspeed base 80s like Gallade, and base 83 Magmortar, although Timid Moltres fails to be outspeed :\

I think SD / X-Scissor / Earthquake / Quick Attack would be good, as Quick Attack can quickly gain KOs, and will snowball to be stronger.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 121-143 (37.69 - 44.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 60 HP / 0 Def Sceptile: 173-204 (58.44 - 68.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Quick Attack could prove useful.

Ultimately, I think right now that Pinsir will have a hard time finding a time to set up.

[Silvershadow234]

Not got gold rank yet(will soon :p), but I'm going to share my thought about Absol.

Absol is a really excellent mon in the current metagame. It revenge kills a huge amount of the tier with ease, and has a pretty great movepool which gives it a big advantage over Spiritomb. It also smashes through the TanKing core, if you go with Fire Blast(which you should, it's the best set), which has been rising in popularity as of late. Dark is such a great STAB to have at the moment, as fighting types are losing popularity thanks to Cresselia and are too weak to take on Absol anyway, such as Primeape.

I'm finding Naive to be the best nature for Absol now, I don't particularly miss the power boost from Naughty, and the ability to out speed Nidoqueen and Adamant Kabutops is definitely worth it.

I'll update my post with a ladder ranking later on.

[Chimpakt]

Using Absol and Pinsir
Alt is Slow Sir.

[Pocket]

I hope I'm not late for this gonna test out Carracosta in Rain ;)

Alt Galapagos

EDIT: nvm, Carracosta in Rain is underwhelming (I see no point in using it over Kabutops / Omastar). Gonna test the mighty Pinsir!

Alt: Aburame

[Molk]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

I hope I'm not late for this gonna test out Carracosta in Rain ;)

Alt Galapagos

For reference, im going to end off this research group at the end of RU round 13, the thread is seeming to get less and less active anyway, so why not set a deadline to get your alts in and post your thoughts!

Anyways, has anyone else made it into the hall of fame recently? If so i would be happy to see a screenshot and your thoughts on Absol/Pinsir/Ditto/Carracosta! Ive been testing them all and they have all been gr8 mons for me :).

[Pocket]

Managed to get Bronze; I may try to go higher, but I really want to play with my Hail team x0

For my research, I was experimenting with SubSalac Pinsir with 3 attacks. It was initially difficult to make it work, since it didn't have the wallbreaking power of SD or CB Pinsir. This pretty much meant I needed a separate slot for busting holes. However, once Pinsir is behind a Sub and gets a kill, it bulldozes through teams. Especially against balanced teams where I only need to wear down that one Pinsir check for it to nab a Moxie boost and become unstoppable. The ability to freely switch moves and being able to throw a sub for opportunities to knock out faster threats are also great perks for this set that complemented well with Moxie.


Pinsir @ Salac Berry
Trait: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
~ X-Scissor
~ Substitute
~ Earthquake
~ Stone Edge

It's rather annoying not to be able to fit Close Combat, but EQ and SE is crucial for hitting Nidoqueen and Fire-types. You'd want to pair this with a wallbreaker, since Pinsir can't break past physical walls on its own. I used BU Hariyama in this place, which also provided some useful bulk and status absorber (sans sleep) for my offensive team. Just like any other Moxie user, Pinsir also appreciates SR + Spikes support.

[typon77]

Gonna try Absol and possibly Ditto because they're bro's at revenge killing.

Alt: MushroomSoldier

EDIT: Just using Absol; Ditto wasn't performing well