Pokémon BW2 In-game Tier List Mark II [See Post #840]

[Treecko]

The issue I had with Growlithe was that I had to baby it for so long in order to get the moveset I really wanted. While you are not by any means required to do this in order to use Arcanine viably, it makes it a hell of a lot better for sure. If you want Flamethrower+Crunch, you have to go all the way to level 39 as a Growlithe when your starter (if you chose to keep it) is already fully evolved. Most of your Pokemon will be fully evolved at this point, actually. Hell, even Scraggy evolves at 37, but at least it gets Hi Jump Kick to smack things around with before it evolves, making it a lot easier to use as a Scraggy until it evolves. But if you want Flare Blitz (and Outrage, I suppose, since it comes between Crunch and Flare Blitz), you have to wait until level 45. Admittedly, when I did this, it probably was not my best option even though Arcanine immediately began to show its usefulness as soon as it evolved. I don't know. I could see Numel being placed over Growlithe sheerly because while its availability is much farther along, it is much easier to train and evolve into Camerupt. However, I have only ever used Growlithe in BW2, so I don't want to argue for Numel as much as I want to bring up points against Growlithe.

[celever]

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

Flame Wheel's good for mid-game, and you're implying that you use the Fire Stone immediately. Why would you do that? Yes, you have EQ...that's...yeah. That's really the only thing that Camerupt has that you can pick out. Fire/Ground isn't this super typing you're setting it up as; being neutral to Grass, 4x weak to Water, a Rock type will STILL HIT YOU because 90% of those rock types you fight have Sturdy, meaning that you still take hits off only decent defenses. And you're Neutral to Rock, instead of being resistant to it. I'm sorry, but isn't this the reason Magmar's in Low? Because he hits hard, but doesn't take hits nearly as well as Arc and is slow as balls? If your argument for Camerupt is "Spam EQ", than he DOES belong in Low because that's the only thing he has over Arcanine. You've been using this Growlithe the whole game, which means he's got some IV's built up already, meaning his STATS will probably be better than Camerupt's already. Save that Fire Stone until you get Crunch, and then evolve it.

Of course you don't have to use the fire stone immediately. Like treecko said though, you have to baby the growlithe until you get to level 39, which wastes a spot on your team for ages. Camerupt is ready to go the second you catch him, and would be a valuable mother to your growlithe baby if you choose to have both. Well you can't say that pure fire is far far better than fire/ground - camerupt has an immunity (electric) and a neutral typing rather than weakness in exchange for something it used to resist being neutral. Fair trade-off. Having used camerupt, I can tell you straight up that camerupt takes hits on the border of great and fine, which is very good. If magmar is low because of that (we shouldn't even be talking about magmar, he is white 2 exclusive while Camerupt is black 2) then so be it, but that does not really effect camerupt. Camerupt, as said before, has pretty good defense and can take hits pretty well/fine. Camerupt also has better offenses than magmar by more than 5, unlike arcanine compared to camerupt. Camerupt's speed does not matter when he resists most of the important battles later on, resisting all of the garbodor and such team plasma has going as well as being great against the cryogonal due to his rock attacks whereas arcanine is dealing with cryogonal's high special defense. By no means am I saying "trollolol EQ spam rox" but the fact that it has earth-quake immediately is very nice. I mean, it also gets flamethrower much earlier than arcanine as well, and those rock attacks help as well. While Arcanine does have a much wider movepool, you have to baby it for ages, camerupt has only 3 (some of the best in-game) types and even if it means earth-quake spam for a little while at the start of camerupts stay with you then, well, its still a great thing that Arcanine can't do!

[Alice in Strings]

Looking at the battles you fight with Camerupt, I can say that there are a couple he could do well in. Obviously he trashes Colress far better than Arc thanks to being immune to Electric, and does great against Plasma's infinite Poison types. He can also hold his own against Marshal decently well. The problem is how late you get it. Right after Gym 6, and being version exclusive means that White 2 players won't have the option to use it. Ground is cool, but it's not something you should still be pining for at this point in the game. Camerupt really needs to be something special in order to warrent being found so late in the game. Fire, Ground and Rock are amazing offensive types that have nearly perfect coverage. That's pretty cool, but is it something I want to wait that long for?

On the other hand, Growlithe is with you for most of the game, at points where you really want to have a Fire type. He trashes Burgh with little difficulty, destroys Magnemites (which are surprisingly difficult to deal with) has the offenses to keep it alive for most of the game (mind you, this babying period is really brief, like two or three levels), gets Intimidate to give it a pseudo-defense buff right off the bat, and has that good size movepool.

You should already have a well built team by the time you finish Gym 6. I'm sure by this time you already have a Fire type in your team, whether it's Growlithe, Darumaka, or even Magmar. You also probably have a good Ground type by this time. What makes Camerupt worth getting rid of my <insert Fire or Ground type here>?

My concern at this point is that you, or anyone else, might be saying "I would put Camerupt in high, but he comes later than the others", and that he outclasses Arcanine when they have very different strategies.

Camerupt and Arcanine are two very different creatures, and right now, I'm convinced they can co-exist peacefully in the same tier. Frankly, I haven't used Camerupt in BW2 yet, so I have yet to see how it performs in this particular game (though I love Camerupt's design <3).

[Cyber Raga]

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

He can also hold his own against Marshal decently well.

Really? Camerupt is slow and not very bulky, most of Marshals' team can out-speed and seriously dent it, if not outright KO it. Not to mention Throh's SE Bulldoze.
I see little benefit in using Camerupt for that fight.

[celever]

Alice, we are agreed camerupt for mid then? I just noticed something, earlier you said that magmar is low because of reasons that camerupt also suffers from. Guess what, magmar is also mid, and camerupt is at least a little better than magmar. By no means is camerupt good enough for high, so we are apparently agreed for my original placement then? (I like winning debates, just putting that out there).

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat celever

Alice, we are agreed camerupt for mid then? I just noticed something, earlier you said that magmar is low because of reasons that camerupt also suffers from. Guess what, magmar is also mid, and camerupt is at least a little better than magmar. By no means is camerupt good enough for high, so we are apparently agreed for my original placement then? (I like winning debates, just putting that out there).

Magmar must have went up since I last checked. I could have sworn he was Low...oh well. I agree with your original placement. (I like winning them too, but I like it even more if people stand up for their points and provide more than just a few sentences).

I forgot that Marshal's Throh had Bulldoze, and that was the one that I was thinking that Camerupt could beat. Silly me~

[celever]

Cubchoo - Mid
Availability: Mid-game, before skyla (good timing too, as you can get those missing levels through her gym trainers!) Also to note in availability I feel, is it is one of 6 ice types available before post-game, (one is freaking delibird) and the other 5 are far far later.
Stats: Beartic has an incredibly high attack stat, 110, and some nice bulk for in-game at 80 a piece and 95 HP. It's down-fall is its speed, but sue to its nice bulk it hardly matters.
Typing: Well we all know how good pure ice is in-game Ice type can be helpful. I mean, you won't be getting ice TMs for a long while, and the simple fact that the only other times you will be getting ice pokemon in this game are undella bay in winter, all the way in the giant chasm (3 gyms away) and then post-game in twist mountain. This gives Cubchoo a great amount of merit.
Major battles:
Skyla: Yeah, tech it rock slide and it wrecks her swanna, and swoobat I suppose, although it doesn't really matter whether you go rock slide or <insert ice attack you have at this point>.
Drayden Ice versus dragon - and unless you are playing in winter the only ice pokemon available at the point.
Marlon Sure, can be handy. In challenge mode you can rock slide his mantine, but besides that you can deal some big damage on some of his walls before you faint.
Marshall You mad bro?
Shauntal Can be good on her golurk if you give it a fight berry. Also great on drifblim. Keep away from cofagrigus though... IT BURNS!
Grimsley Yeah, he's good against this guy. Keep away from bisharp and scrafty and he can do pretty darn well against the rest of his frail team.
Caitlin Nothing special, but not overly bad. Stay away from reuniclus though, it has focus blast.
Iris He really is very good. Hydreigon, aggron, druddigon and archeops do give you a bit of trouble, but just being able to take out her haxorus easily is very handy.

[Cyber Raga]

Originally Posted by Fat celever

Shauntal Can be good on her golurk! Keep away from cofagrigus though... IT BURNS!

Golurk is a gamble, it has 2 SE moves, Heavy Slam & Brick Break, and it's naturally faster than Beartic. Not a great matchup. It does well against Drifblim though.

Grimsley Yeah, he's good against this guy. Keep away from bisharp and he can do pretty darn well against his frail team.

You'll have to keep him away from anything other than Liepard actually. Scrafty is bulky with STAB Brick Break and higher base speed. Krookodile is also faster and also has a SE move (though it is only Rock Tomb).

[TM13IceBeam]

Not sure where you're going with Cubchoo, or why you suddenly decided to mention that other ice-types are all winter-only gives him merit when Cubchoo itself doesn't exist out of Winter (and no hidden grottos don't count). Lapras can also be found outside of Winter iirc (and exists before Drayden).

It does help that it's the earliest (although as far as gyms go only Skyla is relevant), and the Ice Punch tutor exists for a great reliable move to use. Beartic's pretty bro for getting Superpower, but the main issue is that he doesn't get anything better than Icicle Crash for physical STAB, which is kind of lame, really. Not just that too, but his E4's performance pretty bad imo, no thanks to his wonderful speed (if he was faster he'd be a lot more useful against say Grimsley where he can just superpower everything to death). At least some use against Iris is cool (can Blizzard/IC hydreigon/haxorus, superpower aggron/lapras)

[Antihaxxer]

Well, he can kill Bisharp, Golurk, Drifbloon, Sigilyph ?

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

Not sure where you're going with Cubchoo, or why you suddenly decided to mention that other ice-types are all winter-only gives him merit when Cubchoo itself doesn't exist out of Winter (and no hidden grottos don't count). Lapras can also be found outside of Winter iirc (and exists before Drayden).

It does help that it's the earliest (although as far as gyms go only Skyla is relevant), and the Ice Punch tutor exists for a great reliable move to use. Beartic's pretty bro for getting Superpower, but the main issue is that he doesn't get anything better than Icicle Crash for physical STAB, which is kind of lame, really. Not just that too, but his E4's performance pretty bad imo, no thanks to his wonderful speed (if he was faster he'd be a lot more useful against say Grimsley where he can just superpower everything to death). At least some use against Iris is cool (can Blizzard/IC hydreigon/haxorus, superpower aggron/lapras)

Cubchoo's terrible speed wouldn't be such an issue if it wasn't so frail and given the worst defensive typing in the game (what with all the fighting types, steel types and rock types running around). While 95/80/80 isn't usually terrible (it's actually pretty decent), the fact that it packs such poor speed means that it's usually gonna get hit by the big bruisers before it can bruise stuff itself. It also misses some of the gyms that it really would have liked to play in, such as Burgh's and Clay's. I just don't see it being High Tier when its use is limited and he only contributes in a handful of boss battles. It's kinda the same thing you argued for Camerupt; it exists, packs a monster attack stat and the moves it needs to wreck things, but its speed lets it down, meaning it doesn't really cut it in High or Top.

Also, like a certain TM mentioned, Cubchoo is also only available in Winter. Worth mentioning however, is that it has access to Shadow Claw for coverage, which is found in roughly the same area you find the bear (Celestial Tower). This means he could do more things in the E4, such as provide backup against Caitlin and Shauntel (such as killing Cofagrigus for your main attacker if you're worried about Mummy).

[celever]

Actually yeah, good points guys. I was over-shooting it pretty bad there. So, Cubchoo for mid?

[Alice in Strings]

Mid's good for me. I wouldn't go any lower unless anyone else has complaints.

[inanimate blob]

Originally Posted by Fat celever

Cubchoo - Mid
Iris He really is very good. Hydreigon, aggron, druddigon and archeops do give you a bit of trouble, but just being able to take out her haxorus easily is very handy.

I support mid, but the comment about Haxorus...Dual Chop hits hard. Really hard. And Haxorus outspeeds Beatric. :P

[Pika25]

Not to mention Haxorus has a Focus Sash anyway.

[Magcargo 2]

Metang- Mid
Availability: Late, right before the second part of the plasma fridgate. You can train it against some grunts and evolve it soon.
Stats: As a metang, it's stats are below average. However, once it evolves, Metagross will have jaw dropping attack, decent special attack and great bulk, but low speed.
Typing: Steel/Psychic is a great typing. While the typing is weak offensively, it is great defensively.
Major battles
Corless: Bulldoze will do a nice chunk against most of his team.
Ghetsis: Has a pretty hard time against this guy (though toxicroak will get destroyed by psychic).
Shauntal: Does relatively poor as golurk and chandelure can destroy metagross.
Grimsley: Metagross can do massive damage with hammer arm, but watch out for krookidile.
Marshal: Eats most of his team alive. Howver he has Mienshao and it can really damage metagross.
Catlin: Metagross also eats her team alive. Almost none of her pokemon will do major damage because of a psychic resistence. However, watch out for focus miss.
Iris: Does well against Archeops and druddigon and average against lapras. However the rest of her team has a super effective move against you.
Movepool: Above average. Metagross has access to bullet Punch for Priority And a Super powerful meteor mash. Also it gets hammer arm, Rock slide, zen headbutt, psychic, Earthquake , Thunderpunch, grassknot and ice punch for coverage. However, it doesn't have any useful HMs.
Additional Comments: Metagross is a great addition to any team that has an open slot. It is great for most In-game trainers and will probably be the most powerful member of your team. It also comes at a high level of 50.
EDIT: Added a bit in depth of Metagrosses movepool.

[Alice in Strings]

Marshal will still be hitting fairly hard with his Pokes (Mienshao in particular outspeeds and has STAB HJK), and keep in mind that most of Caitlin's Pokemon pack Focus Miss, which will hurt if it hits. You might want to give a more in-depth analysis of its movepool. Simply stating "above average" doesn't give me a good idea of what it gets that makes me want to use it. Mid is perfectly fine for it, though.

[Magcargo 2]

Not much disscussion going on ATM.

[Alice in Strings]

My initial conclusion of Yamask was pretty bad. Cofagrigus has a gigantic base 145 Defense stat and a good 95 Base SpAtk stat. I could see it going to Mid thanks to it getting Iron Defense and Energy Ball, among other neat things.

[Magcargo 2]

My initial conclusion of Yamask was pretty bad. Cofagrigus has a gigantic base 145 Defense stat and a good 95 Base SpAtk stat. I could see it going to Mid thanks to it getting Iron Defense and Energy Ball, among other neat things.

It gets walled by so many steel and dark types. Also, weak moves are a huge hinderance.

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat Magcargo 2

It gets walled by so many steel and dark types. Also, weak moves are a huge hinderance.

Shadow Ball and Energy Ball are weak? The only Dark types you'll be facing 90% of the time are Liepard anyway, who don't pose a threat at all and Cof hits back with Energy Ball to kill it.

[Magcargo 2]

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

Shadow Ball and Energy Ball are weak? The only Dark types you'll be facing 90% of the time are Liepard anyway, who don't pose a threat at all and Cof hits back with Energy Ball to kill it.

80 base power moves are pretty low. Also, aside from EB and SB, it lacks a good movepool.

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat Magcargo 2

80 base power moves are pretty low. Also, aside from EB and SB, it lacks a good movepool.

Will-o-Wisp + Hex = 100 Base Attack. It also gets Iron Defense as a tutor move, and Curse to fuck over Steel types. It's not a bad Pokemon by any means. I'm using one in my Black Nuzlocke, and it's pretty ballin' at the moment.

EDIT: 80 Base Power is by no means weak. Energy Ball is a really valueble move, as is Shadow Ball. Notice how a lot of Ghost types in competitive play use Shadow Ball? Notice how many Grass types use Energy Ball that aren't using Solarbeam? It's pretty damn powerful.

[Magcargo 2]

Iron defense can be a liability when the foe gets a crit. Also, it seems like your cofagrigus is destroyed by special attackers.

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat Magcargo 2

Iron defense can be a liability when the foe gets a crit. Also, it seems like your cofagrigus is destroyed by spwcial attackers.

105 Base SpDef isn't terrible in the least bit. Sandslash is in the same tier and gets wrecked even harder by special attackers and lacks speed to set up against them in the first place. At least Cof can nerf physical attackers and hit their sweet spots.