OU CCAT - Mark III (Laddering/Discussing - See Post #547)

[zpattack12]

Dragonite@Leftovers
Adamant Nature
Trait:Multiscale
252 Atk/4 SpD/252 Spe
~Dragon Dance
~Dragon Claw
~Fire Punch/Aqua Tail (Weather Dependent Sun/Weatherless-Fire Punch, Rain-Aqua Tail)
~ Extremespeed

While this may not have great synergy with Gliscor, the substitutes that are passed allow the ability for Dragonite to setup Dragon Dance to +1 or +2 in combination with Multiscale. When Dragonite is able to setup to that extent it can take out a lot of pokemon and it can tank hits with Multiscale. If there is a Mamoswine/faster scarfer, you have Extremespeed, which will do a lot of damage when you are setup. It will probably need a bulky ice resist along with a spinner to be used to it's maximum capacity, but the ceiling is very high for Dragonite on this team.

The Substitute passed helps aid setup and ensure Dragonite doesn't get hurt by status. Dragonite also leaves rain and sun as good options to use. Sand and hail's residual damage isn't the best thing, but this has leftovers to negate the residual damage.

[The Reptile]

Terrakion @ Choice Band
Adamant Nature
Justified
252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Rock Slide / Earthquake
- Quick Attack

Terrakion has great speed and can break walls really easy, especially with a Choice Band. Their synergy together is decent enough, as they only share a Water weakness, meanwhile, Gliscor resist Ground and Fighting moves Gliscor is weak. I guess Terrakion can take Fire-attacks aimed at Gliscor's weaker defense. Terrakion behind a sub is a real big threat, as you can no longer check it with Scizor, and you need to break the sub in order to revenge kill him. Even without a sub, Terrakion can break huge holes for a potential sweep, and can allow Gliscor to come in on their answer to Terrakion. CC and SE are both STAB and should be on all Terrakions imo. Rock Slide is for those moments you can't let Stone Edge miss. Quick Attack can be used to finish off weak targets, but you're probably never going to use Quick Attack. Last slot can be changed to whatever really, even Toxic is a viable move, as you are probably never going to use your fourth move since his STABs are so fantastic.
Now, it might be weird to have such an offensive power house on a balanced team, but Terrakion can fit rather well since it can punch holes for the other team members that might not be strong enough to break through walls. Meanwhile, Terrakion can use his team's bulk to his advantage, as the bulky pokemon can switch into whatever threatens Terrakion out relatively easy. Also, Terrakion has ok bulk, it's enough so that it's not completely fragile.

EDIT: I would also like to point out that, bar Cobalion, all of the horsemen...horses...were nominated for CCAT. c:

[Somebody Anonymous]

Rock Slide only has a slightly better accuracy. I suggest Earthquake or X-Scissor over it.

[The Reptile]

Originally Posted by Fat Somebody Anonymous

Rock Slide only has a slightly better accuracy. I suggest Earthquake or X-Scissor over it.

I personally prefer Rock Slide, since EQ and X-Scissor don't hit anything that doesn't get smashed by his dual STAB (Nidoqueen is the only thing I can think of), plus, while 90 accuracy might not seem that much higher, in practice it really is. Also, there's the whole SE has 8 PP thing. Honestly though, it doesn't matter too much, since the only move you're going to use are Stone Edge and Close Combat, the rest is filler.

[Lavos Spawn]

Virizion @ Black Belt
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Leaf Blade
- Stone Edge

Virizion makes an excellent partner with Gliscor, it really appreciates the Substitute that Scor's going to be passing, and utilizing its great Special Defense, it can tank hits commonly aimed at Gliscor, such as Rotom-W's Hydro Pump and Politoed's Scald without breaking the Sub, leaving it free to set up and do some major work on teams. Nobody prepares for this thing anymore, which is a big mistake in my opinion, as after a Swords Dance, this thing is threatening as all hell. With excellent Fighting/Grass/Rock coverage and dual STAB to boot (haha get it), Virizion would make an excellent choice for the second Pokemon in our CCAT.

[alexwolf]

Lavos Spawn i believe that Life Orb is a much better option, especially as we are having Gliscor to pass Subs to Virizion to avoid status. With LO and after an SD Virizion becomes a real powerhouse, while unboosted it can do thinks like OHKOing Torn-T on the switch. Not to mention that without LO you can't even OHKO Garchomp at +2, which is kind of a big deal, as it then OHKOes back.

EDIT: Yeah Ginga now that you mention it Fist Plate seems as the best option. Gonna check how much a +2 CC does to Chomp with Fist Plate...

EDIT2: It does 107% min so we are fine...

[ginganinja]

Wouldn't Fist Plate then be better since recoil utterly sucks on Virizion cos Priority is like, super common and whenever I used Virizion, LO just chipped away at my health and bulk a little too much for my liking

[Me So Shiny]

When using baton pass on gliscor I feel there is an obvious choice to pass to.


Lucario @ Life Orb
Trait: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant (+Atk,-SpA)
-Swords Dance
-Close Combat
-Extremespeed
-Ice punch/Crunch/Bullet Punch

This is my favorite receiver of Gliscor subs, when thinking about the kind of attacks gliscor draws in, none of them hit Lucario for SE damage. Lucario's biggest problems are Equake and fighting moves, neither of which get aimed at gliscor, allowing Luke to get up a free SD which can mean game over for unprepared teams. Your choice of the last move depends on the partners picked later in this project. I personally like using bullet punch to get double priority. But if we would choose bullet punch than we would have to pick a partner to deal with gliscors and bulky psychics such as jellicent and reuniclus. But that is getting ahead of ourselves, the great thing about this set is that it can fill a role we need at the end just by picking which move we want in the fourth slot.

[ThunderBlunder]

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

Virizion @ Lum Berry
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Leaf Blade
- Stone Edge

Virizion makes an excellent partner with Gliscor, it really appreciates the Substitute that Scor's going to be passing, and utilizing its great Special Defense, it can tank hits commonly aimed at Gliscor, such as Rotom-W's Hydro Pump and Politoed's Scald without breaking the Sub, leaving it free to set up and do some major work on teams. Nobody prepares for this thing anymore, which is a big mistake in my opinion, as after a Swords Dance, this thing is threatening as all hell. With excellent Fighting/Grass/Rock coverage and dual STAB to boot (haha get it), Virizion would make an excellent choice for the second Pokemon in our CCAT.

I fully support this suggestion. Virizion is truly one of the best partners for SubPass Gliscor as many bulky waters such as Rotom-W can easily take on Gliscor, but have lots of trouble with Virizion, making it a very powerful sweeper. Definitely voting for this

[Joeyboy]

nominating Breloom!


Breloom @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch

Standard set is standard! Anyway Breloom handles all the bulky waters that want to come in and rain on Gliscor's parade. Breloom really appreciates the Sub Gliscor passes as well, as it makes it much harder to revenge kill. Jolly is to outspeed Adamant Mamoswine and I prefer Leftovers so it gets a little bit more survivability.

[Lavos Spawn]

Changed item to Black Belt, which does the same thing as Fist Plate but sounds so much cooler. Good idea, don't know what I was thinking when I wrote Lum Berry, SubPass Gliscor derp. Again, though, Virizion = best recipient of Gliscor subs in the game.

[gengarsnemisis]

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

Changed item to Black Belt, which does the same thing as Fist Plate but sounds so much cooler. Good idea, don't know what I was thinking when I wrote Lum Berry, SubPass Gliscor derp. Again, though, Virizion = best recipient of Gliscor subs in the game.

Wow there, I don't think you can say that bold of a statement regaurding Virizion and Gliscor. Gliscor is a ICE MAGNET, it will almost always attract a ice user rather than a water. Even a politoad will most likely use ice beam due to it being much more accurate that Hpump. Keldeo is a far superior partner because it can tank both of these things, IMO!

[alkinesthetase]

viriz will threaten out the things that use those attacks more easily than keldeo though, especially all those bulky waters, which is the main reason that passing to a grass type is good. it's arguable which is "best" or if there even is one, but the fact that virizion is ice-weak is definitely not a fatal disadvantage - especially because with its massive special defense, it can easily tank uninvested hp ices and what not that are being run for anti-gliscor coverage (on mons such as physical landorus-I or even mienshao)

[Superpowerdude]

Nominating Offensive Heatran



Heatran @ Leftovers / Air Baloon | Flash Fire
Timid Nature | 4 Hp / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
Stealth Rock | Fire Blast | Earth Power | Hidden Power [Ice]

Heatran will make a great partner with Gliscor for lots of different reasons. First off Heatran can provide the team with Stealth Rock support which is very important for any competitive teamas you all know. Despite both of them sharing a Water-type weakness they have great synergy with Heatran resisting Ice and Gliscor resisting/immune to Ground / Fighting that Heatran is weak to. Behind a Substitute Heatran is capable of doing insane damage to any pokemon with his 130 Specail attack and it also gives Dugtrio a harder time trapping and getting a ko as well. This makes Heatran behind a Substitute a decent check to most sun teams, although that is not overly important doe to this team being a weather team. If this team decides to go down the Sandstorm route Heatran takes no damage from Sand and will honestly work well in any weather besides rain. Also with Heatrans great resistances he really lives up to the bulky offense theme and his Substitutes will be quite hard for the opponent to break because of those resistances.

Oh and i will also take this oppurtunity to congratulate Harsha in leading this CCAT with Eletrolyte you to are the greatest.

[ginganinja]

Might as well nominate something of my own

Cloyster @ White Herb
Trait: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Hydro Pump

Tested this out on a team of mine (with the same Gliscor) and it worked pretty well. Basically, Gliscor draws Ice attacks like the fucking plague, Genesect + Mamo being the most common users. Cloyster can shrug off these ice attacks, keep its Substitute intact, and Shell Smash, giving you free rein to sweep with ease. If you were lucky enough to keep your Substitute up, it means that revenging you is 100% harder since they have to break the sub AND strip off 100% of your health. The obvious flaw with this reciever, is the fact that against non choiced water types (which commonly carry Ice Beam and Surf) your use is going to be limited, although you can simple back a second reciver as a water resist, to cover your bases no matter what,

To be clear, whatever we decide, I personally would prefer we use something that can actually USE the substitute, ideally keeping it intact, which makes it more successful. This is prolly why I am not quite such a fan of Breloom which is frailer, and therefore has more of a chance of the sub breaking during the pass, which perhapes another pokemon could use better.

Just my 2 cents

[Remedy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnzHs...feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sVkw...feature=relmfu
I thought this would be interesting to share this video.
There is a team in which the Sub/Pass Gliscor is the crux of the team's strategy. We see pokemons that can take Water hits, Ice hits (Heatran x4!), or both (Rotom-W). Paired with strong set-up pokemons like Haxorus/Scizor, and a Virizion !

I hope this video can provide the discussion with solid and fresh new ideas to create a viable strategy!

[alexwolf]

I don't like Breloom at all as a partner. Funny fact is that every single water attack in rain breaks its sub. Yeah even Scald from the weakest water type in OU, Tentacruel, breaks the Sub 100% of the times. So realistically, Breloom will almost never be able to keep the Sub intact during the pass. Not to mention that many pokes that threaten Gliscor threaten Breloom too, such as ScarfToed locked into Ice Beam, Cloyster using Icicle Spear, Mamoswine using Icicle Spear or just breaking the Sub with Icicle Crash and then almost OHKOing Breloom with Ice Shard, Gyarados outspeeds and OHKOes Breloom and most offensive users of HP Ice outspeed and OHKO Breloom, such as Rotom-W and Landorus.

[Husky]

Nominating this bro:


Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Moxie
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Ice Fang
- Bounce / Stone Edge / Taunt

MoxieDos offers a good number of reasons to be used together with SubPass Gliscor. First, it has solid special bulk, allowing it to take most Ice and Water-type attacks easily, having enough time to setup with Dragon Dance. The given Speed EVs and nature allow it to outspeed every base 130 Speed Pokemon after one Dragon Dance, maximizing its Attack to deal as much damage as possible, rest is moved to HP to make it a bit bulkier. If it gets the time to set up twice, it even outspeeds every base 110 Speed Scarfer, thus making it only vulnurable to priority moves, giving it a nice time with a sweeping attempt.

Gyarados has a great typing, which allows it to resist both Scizor's Bullet Punch, as well as Breloom's Mach Punch, while KOing both with a +1 Waterfall and Ice Fang respectively, factoring in Stealth Rock support. Dragonite's ExtremeSpeed and also Mamoswine's Ice Shard are both easily shruged off, being barely able to break Gyarados's Substitute. Ice Fang is needed to deal with all of these stupid Dragons, running rampage in OU. Dragonite without an intact Multiscale, Garchomp, and Salamence are easily OHKOed by it, while Multiscale Dragonite, the Lati Twins, Haxorus and Hydreigon are all safely 2HKOed. Bounce is just a great seoncd STAB, KOing Keldeo and other Fighting-types that might switch in, hoping to revenge kill Gyarados with their coverage Stone Edge, while Stone Edge on Gyarados gives it needed coverage to hit Rotom-W (120/0 variants can only be OHKOed at +3 including Stealth Rock damage though), but also works well against most other Water-types. I just mentioned Taunt for now, as it works nice to stop opponents from setting up, leaving Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Forretress vulnurable to its raw power. Genesect will always end up getting an Attack boost due to Gyarados's high special bulk, meaning it never can use Gyarados to set itself for sweeping, which is probably a big advantage into my eyes.

Yea, when the opponent tries to Volt Switch to catch a x4 effective move, simply go for Gliscor again and proceed with Substitute again.

...

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Commentaries on commentaires:

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

Gyarados is indeed an awesome partner for Gliscor, but i have a few problems with this set.

First of all Gyarados should be really running an Adamant nature as it wants all the power it can get [1]. Why is it important to outsepeed base 130s anyway, which are rare sights in OU? Imo you should use enough Speed evs to outspeed Torn-T at +1. 48 HP / 248 Atk / 212 Spe with an Adamant nature [2] is the best spread as it allows you to outspeed Torn-T at +1 and Scarf Garchomp at +2. The most common scarfers right now are Salamence, Genesect, Keldeo and Garchomp [3]. 3 of them are outsped at +2, and Keldeo can't hurt you back much anyway, while you OHKO back with Bounce, or set-up another DD. No real reason to outspeed scarfed 110s after 2 DDs.

Now for the moveset. Waterfall, DD and Bounce are musts [4]. I believe that in the last slot the best options would be Taunt or Sub. Yeah we can aready pass a Sub to Gyarados, but many times we will not be able to do this, and Gyarados would have to set-up on its own, in which case Sub is awesome for reasons we all know (prevents Scald burns, works awesome with Bounce and Lefties, prevents Rotom-W from revenge killing you, etc). In the other hand let's see about Taunt. Taunt lets you make defensive Politoed your bitch, as after Gliscor passes the Sub to Gyarados on a Scald / Ice Beam, Politoed will definitely use Encore / Perish Song and this is where Taunt comes in, rendering Politoed unable to do anything. But Taunt has more uses. It preventrs any phazing from the likes of Skarmory and Celebi (Perish Song), and still prevents status while you don't have a Sub up. So the best moveset would be DD / Waterfall / Bounce / Sub (and maybe Taunt) imo.[5]

[1] I didn't see any reason to give it more attack, than it basicly needs, it'd be like breaking a butterfly on a wheel. Moxie already takes greatly care of its power. Gyarados's main plan is to come in latest possible, so most of whatever he shoots at is probably damaged in some way already. It usually can get off one or the two Dragon Dances so it can can start cleaning up.

[2] I first considered to nominate it with almost the same spread as you said, but ...

[3] ... there are 2 more way too common Choice Scarfers you didn't mention and I think it's just crucial being able to also outspeed these: Terrakion and Latios! You can't tell me, they're not present anymore, for Terrakion, it's pretty much the most used set I've seen lately, as for Latios.. well, I think we're better to go when we play this a bit more safety.

[4] To be honest, I have to agree with you, Bounce is certainly better in general for Gyarados, mainly because of STAB. However, Stone Edge is pretty much the key to be able to beat Rotom-W 1v1, as it resists any of Gyarados's other moves.

[5] You brought some very good points about what the last slot should contain, however, I think it's still better to have additional offensive coverage, since no matter how well you explain the merits of both Sub and Taunt, there's still the problem that whatever won't get picked, it'll leave you open to certain threats. I just want to see Gyarados being able to go on rampage as long as he get's the chance to do so, which works best when he's running DD + 3 Attacks imo.

[alexwolf]

Gyarados is indeed an awesome partner for Gliscor, but i have a few problems with this set.

First of all Gyarados should be really running an Adamant nature as it wants all the power it can get. Why is it important to outsepeed base 130s anyway, which are rare sights in OU? Imo you should use enough Speed evs to outspeed Torn-T at +1. 48 HP / 248 Atk / 212 Spe with an Adamant nature is the best spread as it allows you to outspeed Torn-T at +1 and Scarf Garchomp at +2. The most common scarfers right now are Salamence, Genesect, Keldeo and Garchomp. 3 of them are outsped at +2, and Keldeo can't hurt you back much anyway, while you OHKO back with Bounce, or set-up another DD. No real reason to outspeed scarfed 110s after 2 DDs.

Now for the moveset. Waterfall, DD and Bounce are musts. I believe that in the last slot the best options would be Taunt or Sub. Yeah we can aready pass a Sub to Gyarados, but many times we will not be able to do this, and Gyarados would have to set-up on its own, in which case Sub is awesome for reasons we all know (prevents Scald burns, works awesome with Bounce and Lefties, prevents Rotom-W from revenge killing you, etc). In the other hand let's see about Taunt. Taunt lets you make defensive Politoed your bitch, as after Gliscor passes the Sub to Gyarados on a Scald / Ice Beam, Politoed will definitely use Encore / Perish Song and this is where Taunt comes in, rendering Politoed unable to do anything. But Taunt has more uses. It preventrs any phazing from the likes of Skarmory and Celebi (Perish Song), and still prevents status while you don't have a Sub up. So the best moveset would be DD / Waterfall / Bounce / Sub (and maybe Taunt) imo.

[Electrolyte]

Ok, Harsha and I agreed to end nominations early, because a lot of the things that would have been said have been said by now. Time for voting!

Submissions:
alexwolf's Keldeo
PenguinX's Kingdra
bubbly's Kyurem
Ganj4lf's Starmie
clubbingsealcub's Volcarona
Remedy's Empoleon
zpattack's Dragonite
TheReptile's Terrakion
Lavos Spawn's Virizion
Me So Shiny's Lucario
Joeyboy's Breloom
Superpowerdude's Heatran
Ginganinja's Cloyster
Husky's Gyarados

Pick TWO of your favorite nominations- it does not matter what order you put them in. Ties will be broken by the conjunction of Harsha and I. Voting will end in 3 days. Here's what your votes should look like:

Vote 1
Vote 2
*Description as to why you like these two; optional*

Get voting!

[The Great Mighty Doom]

Lavos Spawn's Virizion
ginganinja's Cloyster

[Pocket]

alexwolf's Keldeo
bubbly's Kyurem

Keldeo is an obvious choice; Kyurem is a cool choice, being able to wreak havoc on most Gliscor switch-ins. I prefer Life Orb > Leftovers on Kyurem, though, since the extra power really makes it all that more threatening behind a substitute.

[alexwolf]

Pocket i guess that details such as this (item choice, 4th move) can be discussed when the poke is chosen (or when the team is finalized)...

Ya, I know, wouldn't hurt to voice my opinions now, though ;) - Pocket

[KRageToo]

1. alexwolf's Keldeo
2. Ginganinja's Cloyster

Both of these resist Gliscor's 2 weaknesses and they appreciate the Substitute at the same time. The Substitute CM Keldeo set is great but always lacked a coverage move to fully function. CM without the substitute makes Keldeo subject to annoying status. I tested before the second Pokemon nomination the same exact Keldeo set with the same EVs (I wanted to nominate it but oh well) and it worked quite well. Cloyster is a great way to put offensive pressure on the opponent with its Shell Smash while having the ability to switch safely with a substitute. Meanwhile, Gliscor takes no damage from electric type attacks and sponges fighting to which Cloyster is weak to.

[Joeyboy]

alexwolf's Keldeo cough.penguinx's keldeo..
Ginganinja's Cloyster